The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 12:47 am

@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by kroi on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 3:55 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 5:57 pm

@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by kroi on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 7:29 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah he basically says it was only the screenplay & TFA that he had to 'work with', and focuses a lot of Kylo's 'anger' in TFA! Def. agree that MK didn't work w/ Rian directly... it seems only Jason did, but I wonder which version of the script he had cause Jason said Rian's scripts were very clear re: motivations, yet Michael's varies so vastly from Jason's!!
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 7:45 pm

@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah he basically says it was only the screenplay & TFA that he had to 'work with', and focuses a lot of Kylo's 'anger' in TFA! Def. agree that MK didn't work w/ Rian directly... it seems only Jason did, but I wonder which version of the script he had cause Jason said Rian's scripts were very clear re: motivations, yet Michael's varies so vastly from Jason's!!
@kroi

It's a mystery to me as to why -- if he was working from the TLJ screenplay -- Kogge would portray Kylo the way he did. I guess once we get our hands on the TLJ screenplay this'll all be clearer.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by kroi on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 8:16 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah he basically says it was only the screenplay & TFA that he had to 'work with', and focuses a lot of Kylo's 'anger' in TFA! Def. agree that MK didn't work w/ Rian directly... it seems only Jason did, but I wonder which version of the script he had cause Jason said Rian's scripts were very clear re: motivations, yet Michael's varies so vastly from Jason's!!
@kroi

It's a mystery to me as to why -- if he was working from the TLJ screenplay -- Kogge would portray Kylo the way he did. I guess once we get our hands on the TLJ screenplay this'll all be clearer.
@Dar-ren19

It could also be that MK couldn't reconcile his idea of Kylo from TFA w/ RJ's Kylo in TLJ so just kept with what he knew??
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 8:34 pm

@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah he basically says it was only the screenplay & TFA that he had to 'work with', and focuses a lot of Kylo's 'anger' in TFA! Def. agree that MK didn't work w/ Rian directly... it seems only Jason did, but I wonder which version of the script he had cause Jason said Rian's scripts were very clear re: motivations, yet Michael's varies so vastly from Jason's!!
@kroi

It's a mystery to me as to why -- if he was working from the TLJ screenplay -- Kogge would portray Kylo the way he did. I guess once we get our hands on the TLJ screenplay this'll all be clearer.
@Dar-ren19

It could also be that MK couldn't reconcile his idea of Kylo from TFA w/ RJ's Kylo in TLJ so just kept with what he knew??
@kroi

Could be. The interviewer (Becca?) has problems empathizing with Kylo and says so... so this just seems like an anti-Kylo-fest to me. Kogge's idea about Kylo are very difficult for me to identify with.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by kroi on Sat 01 Sep 2018, 11:05 pm

@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:
@kroi wrote:
@Dar-ren19 wrote:@kroi Thanks so much for the link and for copying those sections. I have a lot of misgivings about Kogge's novelization when it comes to Kylo's characterization, so I'm gonna go have a listen!
@Dar-ren19

You're welcome! His comments on Kylo are sooo confusing!! He focuses a LOT of TFA Kylo rather then TLJ, and seems to not understand or have any knowledge about his motivations.... Neutral

@kroi exactly. I was hoping this would get clarified further via this link.

I don't think Kogge worked with Rian as Jason Fry did. Some of his takes in the junior novel are so out there (and different from the screened movie) that it makes me scratch my head and laugh.

For instance, in the throne room scene, when Rey calls Kylo's lightsaber to herself, Kogge writes that the act so infuriated Kylo that he advanced toward Rey along with the Praetorian Guards. I mean, what?!?!?

So yes you're right -- it seems that he was coming from Kylo in TFA than Kylo in TLJ and everything that had happened in Achh-To between them was as if it never happened... as far as the Kogge novel goes, Kylo was manipulating Rey all throughout TLJ. And because Kogge gives us little of his inner thoughts (Jason Fry doesn't either), when kids read this novel, they're getting a very different Kylo Ren from what they're watching in the movie.
@Dar-ren19

Yeah he basically says it was only the screenplay & TFA that he had to 'work with', and focuses a lot of Kylo's 'anger' in TFA! Def. agree that MK didn't work w/ Rian directly... it seems only Jason did, but I wonder which version of the script he had cause Jason said Rian's scripts were very clear re: motivations, yet Michael's varies so vastly from Jason's!!
@kroi

It's a mystery to me as to why -- if he was working from the TLJ screenplay -- Kogge would portray Kylo the way he did. I guess once we get our hands on the TLJ screenplay this'll all be clearer.
@Dar-ren19

It could also be that MK couldn't reconcile his idea of Kylo from TFA w/ RJ's Kylo in TLJ so just kept with what he knew??
@kroi

Could be. The interviewer (Becca?) has problems empathizing with Kylo and says so... so this just seems like an anti-Kylo-fest to me. Kogge's idea about Kylo are very difficult for me to identify with.
@Dar-ren19

LOL, yeah and then she keeps harping on Rey & Ren belong together... a coupling!! like okayyyy?? Make up yo' mind!
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Night Huntress on Sun 02 Sep 2018, 1:29 am

I haven't read the junior novelization of TLJ because I have seen a couple of excerpts that proved to me he had no real inside information about what makes Kylo/Ben tick and obviously can't identify with him on that level.
Kylo acted so much out of character it wasn't even funny.

However I read the TFA jr. novel because everyone gushed about it- to be honest, I don't know why. It's better written than the adult one, that't true but I gained nothing new from it. ADF had an earlier script and needed to write the novel fast - but somehow his version revealed more to me than Kogge's. Nope

Anyway- I don't want to blame any of the authors. I assume they had different information and material to work with and LF only revealing what they absolutely have to in order for them writing the books.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 9:53 am

Hey i just listened to the What the Force podcast where Fry was interviewed about TLJ novel, , i posted on the Podcast thread but might be fitting to post here too.



So ima summarise the juicy Reylo bits. He basically said their relationship is deeper than romance, and calling it romance can be limiting.

This is what he said “they have been each others minds, pasts, deepest fears. Their experience is more intimate more than anyone has ever had, the closest analogue is romantic, the only analogy we could pull on. Its middle chapter, after 9 we could see the full arc of that story”

I think he pretty much is describing them as soulmates Razz

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Moonlight13 on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 10:08 am

@Riri wrote:Hey i just listened to the What the Force podcast where Fry was interviewed about TLJ novel, , i posted on the Podcast thread but might be fitting to post here too.



So ima summarise the juicy Reylo bits. He basically said their relationship is deeper than romance, and calling it romance can be limiting.

This is what he said “they have been each others minds, pasts, deepest fears. Their experience is more intimate more than anyone has ever had, the closest analogue is romantic, the only analogy we could pull on. Its middle chapter, after 9 we could see the full arc of that story”

I think he pretty much is describing them as soulmates Razz
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 10:29 am

Heres a summary of other things Fry said that might be of importance

- Talked about Luke a lot. In Crait Luke is forcing Kylo to face the lessons he’s learned - parallels ROTJ when Luke does the same with his father by forcing him to save Luke.

- Was given instructions to not step on where 9 might go so couldn’t get into Rey/Kylo’s head too much.

- He was told to fill in the gaps post lightsaber tug-of-war, after Rey wakes up in the supremacy, there were suggestions about an action scene but Fry wanted Rey to have a quiet moment where she ponders about her parents and not being able to bring Ben back, so thats why she has that Force realisation and is unwilling to kill Ben.

- Rose helps Finn find a greater purpose. He is now aware of the “Jealous woman trope” - he didnt think through it enough and its a lesson he wish he had known and was more careful about.

- He wrote interludes of Luke-Ben at the temple and Luke’s Force teachings, he said it was so fun to write but he had to scrap it Sad Mentioned cosmic Force etc seemed obvious he and the storygroup? really thought about it and the “will of the Force”

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by AhsokaTano on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 10:36 am

@Riri
@Moonlight13
Omg that’s incredible! Am welling up in a good way . Am so happy right now - they are soulmates chosen by the force to be together ! Razz cheers
That quote too about we could see the full arc after 9 of that story- wow that’s interesting too because that suggests two things - rey and Kylo may not be done in terms of their arc by end of 9 but also seems to say to me that that their story has a lot to tell in terms of background especially if and as their connection is force related ( whatever it’s origins and why).
This is great news for reylos though especially those of us who wanted their relationship to be spiritual( soulmates bonded by the force )as well as physical. I love you
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by rey09 on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 10:56 am

@AhsokaTano wrote:@Riri
@Moonlight13
Omg that’s incredible! Am welling up in a good way . Am so happy right now - they are soulmates chosen by the force to be together ! Razz cheers
That quote too about we could see the full arc after 9 of that story- wow that’s interesting too because that suggests two things - rey and Kylo may not be done in terms of their arc by end of 9 but also seems to say to me that that their story has a lot to tell in terms of background especially if and as their connection is force related ( whatever it’s origins and why).
This is great news for reylos though especially those of us who wanted their relationship to be spiritual( soulmates bonded by the force )as well as physical. I love you
@AhsokaTano

yess, we've been saying for three years now that romance was never a really great word for what they have, what they share transcends all that. Sadly most ppl dont get that
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 11:00 am

Also to add he kept saying he doesn’t know where 9 will go, so theres still a chance Reylo might not happen, but imo he said that to be careful lol but im sure he hasn’t read the script for 9 but he probs still knows more than us Smile

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Piper Maru on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 11:09 am

Soulmates? Romance analogy? Hmmmmmmm, I wonder which group of people talked endless about this since 2015 on the internet. Cool
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 2:09 pm

I can just imagine how some fans are reacting to Fry's statements in that interview



@Piper Maru Hmm, yeah kind of like how one of the things we've discussed between the two of us is how these two characters and story are coded as Romantic with the capital R. As in the classic literary movement which means more than just wanting to hold hands and go to space prom but a transcendent relationship with emphasis on emotions, imagination, and that rainstorm on Ache-to (which turned out to be like the creepy house every orphaned heroine in a gothic romance narrative goes to and unearths hidden family secrets) only just happens to turn up when emotions and truths are exploded.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 4:22 pm

Heres the full quote via @kylof*cker on twitter

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by rey09 on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 5:41 pm

@Riri wrote:Heres the full quote via @kylof*cker on twitter
@Riri

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

WOW AMAZING
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Moonlight13 on Mon 10 Sep 2018, 6:33 pm

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