The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by ZioRen on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:28 pm

Sheesh, that first passage sounds like an anti wrote it. He was being preyed on by Snoke the whole time, "privilege" my a**.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:43 pm

@snufkin

I just started the Kogge one and have been dreading evil laughing Kylo, but that second passage, dang. That’s Reylo gold right there, lol. Oh really??? Rey from Jakku might have a pull on Ben??? I’ve seen people justify the, “No one’s ever really gone,” line as being about Han and Luke (which they DO apply to since he gives her Han’s dice and then goes off to die himself) but it’s directly addressing Kylo being lost to the darkness. Kogge interprets the hope for Ben in that line quite literally. Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Dar-ren19 on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 10:44 pm

@ZioRen wrote:Sheesh, that first passage sounds like an anti wrote it. He was being preyed on by Snoke the whole time, "privilege" my a**.
@ZioRen

well, that entire book reads like an anti wrote it Laughing
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Wed 28 Mar 2018, 11:22 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai He's such a brat in both of Kogge's versions it's ridiculously over the top. The first passage doesn't surprise me because it's a kid's book. No matter how much of a creep Snoke is, they're just not going to go there with child grooming and abuse. But I thought the last part was the most important one, about how the family 'legacy' Luke admits to Rey being his own hubris is what corrupted his father, damaged Ben, and which he only escaped by being raised by outside of that environment and expectations.

The last line though, raises the question how the children's novel would handle a scenario where these two fall in love. Because it's pretty much "important lessons for children" and would that mean an ending where they just become very special platonic Force buddies?
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by californiagirl on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 12:44 am

@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai He's such a brat in both of Kogge's versions it's ridiculously over the top. The first passage doesn't surprise me because it's a kid's book. No matter how much of a creep Snoke is, they're just not going to go there with child grooming and abuse. But I thought the last part was the most important one, about how the family 'legacy' Luke admits to Rey being his own hubris is what corrupted his father, damaged Ben, and which he only escaped by being raised by outside of that environment and expectations.

The last line though, raises the question how the children's novel would handle a scenario where these two fall in love. Because it's pretty much "important lessons for children" and would that mean an ending where they just become very special platonic Force buddies?
@snufkin

They don't change plot points in the kids' books. Especially if it ends up being the focus of IX. It's just going to be more jarring when Reylo happens because it isn't as well set up. Poor Kogge's got his work cut out for him!
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 2:33 am

when Rose and Rey meet for the first time, Rose will think

stay away from my Finn
and Rey
I saved your a** on Crait and anyway Finn and I are just friends
But I bet they will have a nice friendship Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 1:27 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai He's such a brat in both of Kogge's versions it's ridiculously over the top. The first passage doesn't surprise me because it's a kid's book. No matter how much of a creep Snoke is, they're just not going to go there with child grooming and abuse. But I thought the last part was the most important one, about how the family 'legacy' Luke admits to Rey being his own hubris is what corrupted his father, damaged Ben, and which he only escaped by being raised by outside of that environment and expectations.

The last line though, raises the question how the children's novel would handle a scenario where these two fall in love. Because it's pretty much "important lessons for children" and would that mean an ending where they just become very special platonic Force buddies?
@snufkin

Out of what sounds like a pretty crappy, anti-Kylo book, that second paragraph where Luke admits that he could have become Vader had he not been hidden on Tatooine is pretty insightful. IOW, even Kogge has to admit that being a Chosen One figure was destructive for both Anakin and Ben. Though I do agree with @zioren that some mention of both being at least "watched" by evil men would have helped. Saying something like "watched" might make Palpatine and Snoke more into haunting spectres more than child groomers for kid readers.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 1:49 pm

@SoloSideCousin That's what I noticed and thought was worth pointing out. It felt like the executive statement of what the ST was trying to explore through this character - the cycle of destruction caused to one family through the Jedi and how that type of expectations/behaviors wasn't conducive to educating/raising children to be successful and functional members of society. It's what ties the PT and OT into the ST and also in Luke's meta speech to Rey in the First Jedi temple about why he broke from the Jedi after everything which went down. He unwittingly started up the cycle again via Ben, that led him to understand what happened with his parents, and at least in Kogge's telling, he realizes what a difference it made having the upbringing he did. The tragedy with Ben is that he had a mother who also benefited from the upbringing she had from her adoptive parents/outside of the order and a father who probably deferred to her decision because he wanted a better life for his son than he had.

Beyond that, I'm actually fine with the lines about his anger and entitlement because that's touched on with his moments of being a snotty, elitist a**hole to Rey despite his feelings for her. And it's insecurity, if he doesn't have that to hold on to, then who is he? I would hope that those are themes explored/resolved in IX because it feels like they've hinted at that as being part of his Dark Side.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by ZioRen on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 2:07 pm

Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SoloSideCousin on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 5:12 pm

@ZioRen wrote:Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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Also look at Adam's slumped shoulders there. He's kneeling like a kid would with some abusive authority figure, and not like the adult soldier that he actually is.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Thu 29 Mar 2018, 5:20 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:Ugh, ew. It still creeps me out to know that the novelization's scene with Snoke wiping away Kylo's tear seems to have been originally filmed. I guess it must have been something Fry pulled from Rian's script.





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@ZioRen

Also look at Adam's slumped shoulders there. He's kneeling like a kid would with some abusive authority figure, and not like the adult soldier that he actually is.
@SoloSideCousin

Snoke !!!! only Rey can wipe Ben's tears !!!! Mad
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 5:24 am

Has anyone read the ROTS novelisation? I came across this quote, its so beautiful and 100% Reylo.

& some people still believe Ben can't be redeemed when the clues have been there since the beginning.


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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Fri 30 Mar 2018, 6:53 pm

Picking my way through both books and one thing that I laughed over is the mention in Rey's mission to the Supremacy is that the PoV of the starfighters who find her escape pod allows two details to slip in. The copious reports written about the destruction of SKB being blamed on underperformance by their starfighters means:

1. Hux the technocrat wrote that report and

2. They must've planned something along with the Phasma book and the deleted scene to show that Phasma was always willing to throw others under the bus to cover her a**. But obvs that full plot point got scrapped during the editing process.

At least from the book showing various PoVs for the First Order officers, despite Poe's shenanigans, you get the impression as a reader that the FO is more at risk for factions splintering it apart. And that the key takeaway is that they would've perished w/out Snoke's help, but that he managed to outwit and eliminate all of its key central leaders and now that he's dead, there's going to be more in-fighting and power struggles.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Night Huntress on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 12:36 am

@snufkin

Yes, absolutely - and that's why I still hope the FO will split into factions and destroy itself from the inside rather than one boring Rebels against FO space battle fight...I mean we still can have those- but a combination of the two would be great imo.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 4:54 am

@Night Huntress wrote:@snufkin

Yes, absolutely - and that's why I still hope the FO will split into factions and destroy itself from the inside rather than one boring Rebels against FO space battle fight...I mean we still can have those- but a combination of the two would be great imo.
@"Cacciatrice notturna"

I fully agree but I would add
destroy FO from inside and outside
Ben and Rey, one inside and one outside Smile
  but sometimes, only sometimes do I think that not all of the first order are bad, but simply influenced Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Apriljandy on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 8:52 am

I sincerely want to see a Rey vs The Resistance/Republic and a Ben vs The First Order... ending with a Ben and Rey against the world

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Sat 31 Mar 2018, 11:46 am

@Night Huntress I know we all got tricked before hoping that the ancillary information from Bloodline and the Empire's End novels would be touched on in TLJ. But it's hard in this situation, having it there in writing that there was a contingency plan for the Imperials to re-group in the Unknown Reaches. But they were done in by the elements, the various egos/rivalries of their leaders, and only survived b/c of Snoke's intervention. And his agenda was no different than DJ's to take advantage of the situation for self-promotion/advancement. That information, plus the PoVs for Peavey and Hux, it's at least that you have a contrast of Snoke versus Leia/Holdo of what it really takes to lead people and plan for the future.

I do find it curious that they have minimal PoV for Kylo, though my understanding is that the author had to do that no knowing what the plan is for IX. Wouldn't you love to hear his honest opinion about trying to balance that when he came in while CT was still doing IX and then his story got scrapped, another writer came in, and then they cleaned the slate to bring back JJ? Must've been stressful so no wonder he left out all but a minimum PoV for that character.
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by lauvamp on Sun 01 Apr 2018, 6:35 am

I found these 2 interesting analysis, I love seeing male Reylo supporters around!  cheers  I love you



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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 4:39 pm

Star Wars has an article about the novel.

http://www.starwars.com/news/7-reasons-why-the-last-jedi-novelization-is-essential

"While Rey journeys into the cave under the island, Luke searches the island for her — to tell her she was right, and that he’s going to join her, only to find her in her hut, touching hands with Kylo Ren. After his fight with Rey, he bares the full story of the night he went to Ben Solo, and she offers him the lightsaber one last time, but Luke doesn’t accept it. Not because he doesn’t want to go help the Resistance, but because her mission is now to turn Kylo Ren, not to fight him."

"While Star Wars is about action and good versus evil, the novel also includes other vital ingredients that make a great Star Wars story, like humor, romance, and just plain cool things"

"Through their interactions, we learn a lot about Rose’s reassessment of Finn from the hero who was fleeing the Resistance as a coward to a man completely devoted to Rey, to someone she loved and felt that she needed to watch over (and eventually save"

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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 5:26 pm

@Riri wrote:Star Wars has an article about the novel.

http://www.starwars.com/news/7-reasons-why-the-last-jedi-novelization-is-essential

"While Rey journeys into the cave under the island, Luke searches the island for her — to tell her she was right, and that he’s going to join her, only to find her in her hut, touching hands with Kylo Ren. After his fight with Rey, he bares the full story of the night he went to Ben Solo, and she offers him the lightsaber one last time, but Luke doesn’t accept it. Not because he doesn’t want to go help the Resistance, but because her mission is now to turn Kylo Ren, not to fight him."

"While Star Wars is about action and good versus evil, the novel also includes other vital ingredients that make a great Star Wars story, like humor, romance, and just plain cool things"

"Through their interactions, we learn a lot about Rose’s reassessment of Finn from the hero who was fleeing the Resistance as a coward to a man completely devoted to Rey, to someone she loved and felt that she needed to watch over (and eventually save"
@Riri

SW isn't just about spaceships and lightsabers and explosions???? Or killing everyone we see as a bad guy? Sometimes they can be saved?? There's romance??? Say what????
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Teo oswald on Tue 03 Apr 2018, 5:31 pm

Ben Solo is their only hope
If Rey manages to shake him deep Ben will destroy the first order from inside and Rey with resistance from the outside. Ben is the key to bringing balance to the galaxy, there's no need to kill each other. Rey knows, Rose knows
it takes a woman to make understand this to a man Smile
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by Riri on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 10:49 am

Fry on Kylo Smile


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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by snufkin on Mon 09 Apr 2018, 11:00 pm

I checked out the Art of TLJ book from my library over the weekend and there's a lot of really interesting info in the notes. They acknowledge that some details were omitted from TFA's art book about Han's death and Luke's exile to avoid spoilers. But those two points support one of the central themes, about acting versus serving the will of the Force. It'd be easier if I did screenshots, except that I don't want to use my precious data (docked to my phone right now) and more important, we've had enough lurkers swipe screenshots from here and b/c it's a book somebody took time to write, I'd rather summarize and people can go read the book themselves.

+ The text doesn't really hint towards anything about Rey Having a Hidden History. "In spite of her youth, Rey is ultimately defined by loss - abandonment by her family on the backwater planet of Jakku, forcing her to shoulder burdens beyond her youth. Rey's journey [first] leads her to a connection with an odd little droid, BB-8, who leads her to Finn, Han Solo, and Leia Organa. Through these companions and her growing connection to the Force, Rey seeks to heal the hole in her heart through the connectedness that comes with family."   Her journey (and her greatest fear and wish) is about finding her place in the larger world, both her identity and the people she belongs with,  because it's not going to be with her biological family. And that line points to connection with a certain family, who likely aren't her biological relatives.

+ While the filmmakers loved the chemistry shown between Daisy and John for Rey and Finn, they felt that they needed to be split up for the characters to mature and evolve, especially on Finn's side. Rian praises how a central part of why Finn acts is because of his feelings for other characters, especially his friendship/protectiveness of Rey. But that keeping him in that position wasn't good for the character, hence separating them and teaming him up with Rose.

+ Also very politely acknowledges that Finn and Poe being awesome bros together (aka The Beautiful Friendship Gang) is boring af. Versus a character like Rose, who pushes him and forces him out of the comfort zone he's fallen into. Finn also learns through their plotline that "don't join," or running away to the Outer Rim, isn't something he can keep doing.

+ the introductory passage to the book is titled, "The Death of Han Solo and the Rebirth of the Jedi." One of the key players, Rick Carter, sees Obi-Wans death as deliberately placing himself at the Will of the Force (or in God's hands, if you will) b/c by sacrificing himself in a manner Luke bears witness to brings father and son together and "hastens the end of Darth Vader." Which skip ahead to the next page, the moment in RotJ when Luke throws down his weapon in a similar sacrificial moment - witnessing this act inspires his father to finally act and return to the Light by saving his son. Couple paragraphs down, they see the same moment happening with Han confronts Ben, where Chewie, Finn, and Rey witness his sacrifice and that moment in turn leads to the defeat (dismantling) of Kylo Ren at SKB. No coincidence that's the "my son is alive" moment. Money quote, "by virtue of Han Solo's martyrdom, the Force acts through Rey and Kylo Ren is defeated." tl:dr - Han sacrifices himself and having Rey present at that moment stops Ben's further slide into Darkness. And quote mentioned here before, "the death of Han Solo will reverberate throughout the two remaining films in the sequel trilogy."

+ Point of the above discussion with the various sacrifices depicted in the OT and the new films (I suspect it also ties in with Chirrut's "All is as the Force wills it" mantra) and a discussion about the DS as being driven by fear of loss and wanting to control for Ben and grandpa, further tied in with the other big question of the film, "What makes a hero?" Why is Luke not coming to his sister's aid and how does that tie in with the very important lesson Poe Dameron learns about how "the solution is sometimes sacrifice and surrender, not charging in recklessly" (tell that to the people who got killed because of Poe's dumbassery).

+ "So who is Luke Skywalker? The Last Jedi provides us with an answer to Rick Carter's 6 year old question. It may not be the answer we seek, but it will be the truest one for our modern mythic hero. Instead of asking 'Who is Luke Skywalker?' perhaps we should be asking, 'What makes a hero?' The answer to that question may be embodied by a self-described nobody from Jakku."

+ Discussed here before that Rey's escape coffin on her mission to the Supremacy was designed to look like a coffin, partially as a reference to CS Lewis' Perelandria. With the detail about the calligraphy on the escape pod of "Property of Han Solo, please return" (his plea to Ben was that he wanted his son to come back), along with Ben's calligraphy set, this all seems like more than just Easter eggs. Also wondering if the escape pod might make an appearance in Solo.

+ Rose and Paige's pendants are described as being Yin and Yang, showing the deep emotional/familial connection between those two characters. Which seems to tie into the Space Bear/Yin and Yang theme shown between Dark and Light, the Force bonds between Ben and Rey and Luke and Leia, Balance, and 'we have them tied to a string.'
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 12:00 am

@Riri wrote:Fry on Kylo Smile

@Riri

This is absolutely fantastic! Jason ... you had me at "anti-hero" Very Happy
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Re: The Last Jedi and the Shakespeare Novelizations

Post by SkyStar on Tue 10 Apr 2018, 12:29 am

@Riri wrote:Fry on Kylo Smile

@Riri

yesyesyesyes! This is good!
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