Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

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Post by Chris24601 on Sun 27 Jan 2019, 11:30 am

I’m in “None of the Above” or, more accurately, “Unholy Union of Several of the Above.”

Since this film will bring us full circle I expect that, as with ANH and TPM it will actually be a pair of villains acting in unison; Vader and Tarkin and the Sith and Trade Federation leaders respectively.

My thinking is Hux has unfortunately been too compromised by Poe’s opening joke and then Snoke and Kylo tossing him around in TLJ, but I expect that someone within the First Order (I think Grant’s character is likely) will be the military mastermind (akin to Tarkin and Nute Gunray) while whoever was second in command of the Knights of Ren (my money is on Matt Smith’s character) will be the man behind the Kylo Ren mask when the military leadership performs a coup against Kylo/Ben.

This would provide the rather traditional split between the military and Force aspects as we see throughout the series. The Droid Army vs. the Gungans as the non-Force heroes engage in a daring plan needed for victory as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan faced Darth Maul... contrasted with the Rebel Fleet vs. the Imperial Fleet/Death Star II while Han and Leia tried to take out the shield bunker and Luke faced Vader and the Emperor.

Though lesser in extent you can also see this in ANH as the Force plot culminates with Luke trusting in the Force after hearing Obi-Wan’s words as Vader (villain of the Force plot) comes barreling after him while the overall race to destroy the Death Star before it clears Yavin (where Tarkin is the Big Bad) is the military focused part of the story.

So, my hunch is... General Grant (head of the First Order military; senior even to Hux) stages a coup against Kylo Ren because he is “too soft” and has him replaced with ‘Matt Ren’; second-in-command of the Knights of Ren; who wears Kylo’s mask as a figurehead to keep the coup a secret (because it might provoke further infighting and/or be seen as a vulnerability the Resistance might exploit).

Meanwhile Rey and the Resistance will be in the role of Qui-Gon and Amidala. They’ll recover the last Skywalker from whatever deserted world he’s been marooned on/escaped to and probably have to face an assassin trying to keep the true Kylo from returning. Meanwhile the pirates will fill the role of the Gungans as the impromptu/overlooked army the heroes employ to overthrow the First Order.

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Post by californiagirl on Sun 27 Jan 2019, 12:00 pm

They really need to build up sympathy for Kylo. It's already an uphill battle. They haven't been treating the character like Vader, but rather presenting his conflict as one of his main attributes since TFA. This won't be a last 10 minutes of the movie thing.

Hux certainly wants to be the big bad, and they've heavily indicated he'll probably have nefarious plans, he's always been Kylo's foil, but I agree he might need help. Whether it's another military mastermind or the KoR. I'd be down for the KoR, since at least we've heard of them and they've been referenced in both films, and we know JJ made them a whole back story.

Snoke's secret apprentice hasn't really been set up at all and would truly come out of nowhere. And Snoke being back would be a real retcon, and moreover undermine Kylo's progress in overcoming his abuser. He's out of the way because he's really just an obstacle for Kylo to conquer, so he can continue on his journey. Wouldn't be surprised if we do learn more about him, but there's really no use of him now.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 1:35 am

No idea, but poor Hux if he spends 2 movies seething at his rival & then gets bumped off! It should be go time for him to try and take out his rival now that Snoke is out of the way as a firewall/bigger fish. At least keep him around long enough for him & Rey to meet because "thuh guurl" is behind some of the biggest wrenches thrown into his plans.

Otherwise, with Trevorrow fired and JJ back after being tutored by Kasdan (who's still an unofficial part of the Story Group), there ought to be more to Solo's theme that everybody has a boss/there's always somebody higher up. As with the rivalry with Hux, now that Snoke is out of the way, it's not going to be the smooth sailing for Ben as galactic prom king because there are other players in the FO (at least they've been hinted at in Bloodline). Also it'd be in line with the OT because the 3rd act is when the protagonists finally come face-to-face with the heads of the entire machine for both the criminal underworld and the Empire.


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Post by Chris24601 on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 1:00 pm

@Mila Lazarus
My thinking is that the opening crawl would be something to the effect of "Things weren't nearly so bad as we thought they'd be under Supreme Leader Kylo, but now a new wave of attacks has begun, more ruthless than any seen before." That would be the clue in the crawl that the First Order generals had staged their coup against Kylo.

Act One reveals that Kylo has been replaced and ends with Rey finding him.

Act Two begins with the newly freed/rescued Kylo wanting to regain his throne, but for all the wrong reasons. During the second act Rey convinces him that the best path to do this requires traveling through the dregs of the galaxy, where he ends up seeing first hand all the evils wrought by the First Order on the people of the galaxy.

Act Three is when Kylo finally gets his head right and decides he needs to remove the impostor and depose the First Order generals for the RIGHT reasons, which Rey helps him accomplish.

Basically, he ends up mirroring the path of his father in ANH; who starts the film as a selfish individual who is only helping for his own ends (he'll agree to help Rey, but only because it will get him his throne back), but by the end of the film he has had a change of heart and ends up saving the day along with Rey.

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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 6:55 am

I think it won't be a replacement big bad more like "big bad" in captain Marvel, an idea instead of a person. In that movie, big bad is war mongering rather than a designated person. so I think they could do that with the dark side or source of the dark side rather than have a character who takes over.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 8:37 am

I really really want to see Kylo AND Rey start questioning their decisions. Kylo obviously was already having second thoughts at the end of TLJ. But I wonder if Rey will be as happy amongst Resistance members as she thinks she will? Let's face it, she hardly knows them. How will they react when they discover her Force bond with Kylo? And although I doubt very much that they'll show them as 'bad guys' I liked how in TLJ DJ revealed to Finn that the Resistance bought their weapons from the same suppliers as the FO. How will Rose react to that?
I just hope JJ won't erase that little 'shades of grey' element Rian introduced, because it breathed new life into the Resistance rather than making them a tired re hash of the Rebel alliance. We already have a complex 'villain' .....I would like Rey to find out not all rebels are like Leia, and some are like Saw Guerrera.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 8:56 am

@vaderito wrote:I think it won't be a replacement big bad more like "big bad" in captain Marvel, an idea instead of a person. In that movie, big bad is war mongering rather than a designated person. so I think they could do that with the dark side or source of the dark side rather than have a character who takes over.
@vaderito

All you said!

Plus - Should add Spoilers for Captain Marvel, CM, below, by chance that is a concern for anyone, but it does help to emphasize all of this.

However, it illustrates Disney loves to market/trick people about the villain, yet it turns out, they are not the villain - there is another side; which involves compassion and empathy.

Therefore, IF the teaser trailer indicates Kylo is the villain; Reylo/Bendemptionists must resist that inclination to panic! Remember, in the marketing for CM, the indication was that the Skrulls are the villains and they spun that on its head. I personally believe they will be obvious about Bendemption in the marketing, but if not, then the angle is the same as the Skrulls with CM.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 9:01 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I really really want to see Kylo AND Rey start questioning their decisions. Kylo obviously was already having second thoughts at the end of TLJ. But I wonder if Rey will be as happy amongst Resistance members as she thinks she will? Let's face it, she hardly knows them. How will they react when they discover her Force bond with Kylo? And although I doubt very much that they'll show them as 'bad guys' I liked how in TLJ DJ revealed to Finn that the Resistance bought their weapons from the same suppliers as the FO. How will Rose react to that?
I just hope JJ won't erase that little 'shades of grey' element Rian introduced, because it breathed new life into the Resistance rather than making them a tired re hash of the Rebel alliance. We already have a complex 'villain' .....I would like Rey to find out not all rebels are like Leia, and some are like Saw Guerrera.
@motherofpearl1

I hope for this, as well!

What gives me hope, Poe survived TFA - I am hoping for this reason. Plus, if the ST is inspired by Shakespeare (Henry V) and Pride and Prejudice, then Poe is the best candidate to mirror Hotspur/Wickham. Moreover, the way Poe rephrased Holdo's "spark" quote is hmmm.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 9:23 am

Yes, that is exactly what stays in my mind. Holdo spoke of igniting hope, Poe of retribution. I don't expect -or want - Poe to become villainous, but I would like to see the line blurred a little. They've already started this, with a 'bad guys' who's really a victim, a heroine who also makes mistakes and one of the heroes turning out to be a former 'bad guy'.
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Post by Teo oswald on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 10:10 am

I voted for Hux for two reasons, one because he was never friendly with kylo and second in episode VIII he tried to kill him and he looked very badly at the end of the film.
His intent is very clear so personally I qualify him as the big Bad guy.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 10:30 am

He'd make a a great bad guy. Especially if the Knights of Ren turn on Kylo and follow Hux.
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Post by Forsythia on Tue 12 Mar 2019, 2:18 pm

I don't know if Hux is threatening or powerful enough to be the big bad (he wouldn't stand a chance against Kylo's Force powers), though if he is some kind of mastermind in the background, planning a mutiny against Kylo, it might work. I'd like to see the Knights of Ren fighting Rey and Kylo.
Since this is the end of the trilogy, there has to be an epic lightsaber battle towards the end of the film and if Ben gets a believable redemption arc (that doesn't have him turn only at the last moment), this fight should not be Rey vs. Kylo. Therefore I think they might team up again against a group of people like in TLJ, and IMO the best idea for that would be the Knights of Ren instead of introducing a new group.
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Post by Starliteprism on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:46 pm

Welp...it looks like they made a big hint at
Big bad:
Palpatine
in the teaser trailer.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 12:55 pm

I am thrilled who is the new 'big bad'.
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Post by Teo oswald on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 2:51 pm

the real enemy has always been the emperor Palpatine Cool
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Post by SkyStar on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 3:06 pm

I love how it just makes so much sense for what it feels like everyone
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Post by Teo oswald on Fri 12 Apr 2019, 4:02 pm


“The Light and The Dark… as THEY face the greatest evil.” -JJ Abrams wrote:

the greatest evil is Palpatine
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 10:55 am

As an ultimate irredeemable villain, Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine was the best. From the slimy senator to the hideous black robed Emperor, he just oozed malice. How they are going to be bringing him back, I have no idea.....but it brings the story full circle.
The end is nigh.
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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 11:34 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:As an ultimate irredeemable villain, Ian McDiarmid as Palpatine was the best. From the slimy senator to the hideous black robed Emperor, he just oozed malice. How they are going to be bringing him back, I have no idea.....but it brings the story full circle.
The end is nigh.
@motherofpearl1

I LOVE IT. He’s not some random baddie, he’s the one who corrupted Anakin Skywalker. What I wonder is who’s going to take him out— Rey or Kylo? It’s her story— but it’s his family’s battle.
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Post by Chris24601 on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 12:06 pm

I’d say who takes Palpatine out will have a lot to do with how he returns.

Was he brought back by some secret ritual? Is it Palpatine’s spirit possessing a clone body?

Did he die at all? Was he just severely injured and enough survived that he could be kept on life support until implanting his mind into a new body (cloned or otherwise).

How long has he been back? Has he been secretly leading the First Order through Snoke this whole time? Was his “resurrection” a secret project that only came to fruition recently? Is he not yet back at all and the mission is to try and keep Palpatine from being reborn (necessarily failing so the heroes have to fight him)?

The answers to these will suggest whose role it is to truly destroy him. To take Avatar as an example, the redeemed villain couldn’t defeat the Big Bad... only the incorruptible hero could restore the balance, but he had another role to play. In others only the failed student who has seen the error of their ways can confront the evil and destroy it (thus cementing his redemption).

My money is on Ben with a very strong assist from Rey though for the primary reason that after Han’s death at his hands the story needs a Go Big Or Go Home act of redemption to sell Ben as a hero and stopping the reborn Emperor is just about the only thing that doesn’t involve sacrificing himself that would qualify enough for even the Resistance zealots like Poe to say “okay, you’re forgiven.”

You don’t get a final group hero shot like the end of TPM, ANH or RotJ without mass acceptance of Ben’s redemption... and they NEED the final group hero shot for it to feel like a Star Wars ending.

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Post by Geralt_Riv on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 1:32 pm

@Chris24601
Yes. Also his words: "I will finish what you started" would get some meaning. Smile
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Post by Chris24601 on Sat 13 Apr 2019, 3:18 pm

@Geralt_Riv wrote:@Chris24601
Yes. Also his words: "I will finish what you started" would get some meaning. Smile
@Geralt_Riv
You know what would utterly flip the script?

If Kylo wasn’t being metaphorical in that line. What if Kylo’s known Palpatine is still alive this whole time... at least since he went and found Vader’s mask... and allowed himself to fall because he believes it’s the only way he’ll ever be strong enough to destroy Palpatine. He kills his father because he believes it’s the only way he’ll be strong enough to make all the other sacrifices he’ll have to.

And he’s had visions of A Girl who stood by him and was critical to defeating the Emperor. He’s realized The Girl is Rey, which is why he reacted so strongly to hearing about her initially, why he’s offered to train her, why he killed Snoke (perhaps ahead of schedule) for her, but he’s screwed it up because he’s under the mistaken belief he has to be in the dark to defeat the Emperor AND for her to stand by him she must be dark too.

One final thought... it’s not super obvious in the shot until you’re staring at a GIF of it... but I initially thought the Death Star wreckage was sitting in a big blackened craggy bit of landscape (some of the rocks jutting up add to this impression), but its not. When you watch a loop like the one of Rey looking out at the wreckage you can see the terrain moving and you realize the wreckage is actually sitting in the midst of a storm-tossed SEA.

“At night... so desperate to sleep... you imagine an ocean. I see it. I see the island.”

What if it’s NOT the island on Ahch-To she was dreaming of, but the Death Star wreckage rising up from a black sea like an island?

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