Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

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Who would be the new Big Bad?

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Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by Mila Lazarus on Sun 27 Jan 2019, 2:32 am

Hi Reylo fans !

Each time someone suggests the idea that Kylo will come back to the Light as Ben Solo in the EP IX, someone comes up and says: "it's impossible, there has to be a Big Bad and Kylo's the only option now that Snoke is gone".

What do you think of this statement? Do we REALLY need a very "Big bad" Sidious type, who has to be defeated at the end for the Galaxy to be saved? I personnally think I could pertfectly live without it, as I tend to consider the FO itself as a sort of "Big Bad": if Kylo destroys the FO from the inside or at least contributes to its destruction, the Galaxy should be saved (at least until a new trilogy brings a new threat!). But it's Star Wars and many fans consider that there has to be a character who takes the role of the "Big Bad" at the end. So, if it's not Kylo (and here we're 99% sure he won't stay bad forever, aren't we?), who could it be?

When I suggest that a new evil character could show up in EP IX, the usual answer is "it's too late"  Suspect Is it, really? I thought of the KoR because even if we haven't seen them in the ST yet, we have heard of them, and have also see them briefly in Rey's vision in TFA... So, they wouldn't "come from nowhere'. I personnally imagine that they could first be Kylo's allies, but then discover with Hux that Kylo has not only killed Snoke, but that he did it to save the new Jedi... Kylo would then become their enemy, and the KoR replace him in the role of the "Big bad"....

There also have been rumous a former apprentice of Snoke who could make his come back in order to dethrone Kylo.... Why not?

And, I know it sounds crazy but there's a part of me who thinks that Snoke might no really be dead... After all, if Luke was able to project himself on Crait while he was on Ach-To, Snoke could have been able to do the same... He seemed very old and powerful, probably much more than Luke, so he could have done it without dying... It always puzzled me that Snoke was not able to perceive what Ben had in mind  confused When he talked about his "real enemy", this real enemy could have very well been himself in his mind... All this could be a tactic from Snoke to test Kylo... Even if his absence from the SW Celebration poster seems to indicate Snoke's absence of importance, I find there's something utterly wrong here: he created the First Order, corrupted Ben Solo, destroyed the New Republic etc... but he would be not important enough to be on this poster, while a second hand like Grievous is?! I don't know, it looks like a trick or something.

I posted a poll with several choices, but if you think of something else, don't hesitate... Smile
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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by Chris24601 on Sun 27 Jan 2019, 11:30 am

I’m in “None of the Above” or, more accurately, “Unholy Union of Several of the Above.”

Since this film will bring us full circle I expect that, as with ANH and TPM it will actually be a pair of villains acting in unison; Vader and Tarkin and the Sith and Trade Federation leaders respectively.

My thinking is Hux has unfortunately been too compromised by Poe’s opening joke and then Snoke and Kylo tossing him around in TLJ, but I expect that someone within the First Order (I think Grant’s character is likely) will be the military mastermind (akin to Tarkin and Nute Gunray) while whoever was second in command of the Knights of Ren (my money is on Matt Smith’s character) will be the man behind the Kylo Ren mask when the military leadership performs a coup against Kylo/Ben.

This would provide the rather traditional split between the military and Force aspects as we see throughout the series. The Droid Army vs. the Gungans as the non-Force heroes engage in a daring plan needed for victory as Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan faced Darth Maul... contrasted with the Rebel Fleet vs. the Imperial Fleet/Death Star II while Han and Leia tried to take out the shield bunker and Luke faced Vader and the Emperor.

Though lesser in extent you can also see this in ANH as the Force plot culminates with Luke trusting in the Force after hearing Obi-Wan’s words as Vader (villain of the Force plot) comes barreling after him while the overall race to destroy the Death Star before it clears Yavin (where Tarkin is the Big Bad) is the military focused part of the story.

So, my hunch is... General Grant (head of the First Order military; senior even to Hux) stages a coup against Kylo Ren because he is “too soft” and has him replaced with ‘Matt Ren’; second-in-command of the Knights of Ren; who wears Kylo’s mask as a figurehead to keep the coup a secret (because it might provoke further infighting and/or be seen as a vulnerability the Resistance might exploit).

Meanwhile Rey and the Resistance will be in the role of Qui-Gon and Amidala. They’ll recover the last Skywalker from whatever deserted world he’s been marooned on/escaped to and probably have to face an assassin trying to keep the true Kylo from returning. Meanwhile the pirates will fill the role of the Gungans as the impromptu/overlooked army the heroes employ to overthrow the First Order.

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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by californiagirl on Sun 27 Jan 2019, 12:00 pm

They really need to build up sympathy for Kylo. It's already an uphill battle. They haven't been treating the character like Vader, but rather presenting his conflict as one of his main attributes since TFA. This won't be a last 10 minutes of the movie thing.

Hux certainly wants to be the big bad, and they've heavily indicated he'll probably have nefarious plans, he's always been Kylo's foil, but I agree he might need help. Whether it's another military mastermind or the KoR. I'd be down for the KoR, since at least we've heard of them and they've been referenced in both films, and we know JJ made them a whole back story.

Snoke's secret apprentice hasn't really been set up at all and would truly come out of nowhere. And Snoke being back would be a real retcon, and moreover undermine Kylo's progress in overcoming his abuser. He's out of the way because he's really just an obstacle for Kylo to conquer, so he can continue on his journey. Wouldn't be surprised if we do learn more about him, but there's really no use of him now.
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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by snufkin on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 1:35 am

No idea, but poor Hux if he spends 2 movies seething at his rival & then gets bumped off! It should be go time for him to try and take out his rival now that Snoke is out of the way as a firewall/bigger fish. At least keep him around long enough for him & Rey to meet because "thuh guurl" is behind some of the biggest wrenches thrown into his plans.

Otherwise, with Trevorrow fired and JJ back after being tutored by Kasdan (who's still an unofficial part of the Story Group), there ought to be more to Solo's theme that everybody has a boss/there's always somebody higher up. As with the rivalry with Hux, now that Snoke is out of the way, it's not going to be the smooth sailing for Ben as galactic prom king because there are other players in the FO (at least they've been hinted at in Bloodline). Also it'd be in line with the OT because the 3rd act is when the protagonists finally come face-to-face with the heads of the entire machine for both the criminal underworld and the Empire.


Last edited by snufkin on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 2:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by Mila Lazarus on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 10:28 am

@Chris24601
I find the idea of Ben being marroned or escaped somewhere while a fake Kylo rules the FO interesting, and it would probably work, but something bothers me in this scenario though: I'd like him to take conscience progressively that the dark side he chose is not the good one for him, and for that he needs, I think, to be in SL function for a great deal of the movie, at least the half of it. I know I'd like him to make several good choices, which would tell the audience: "Oh, he's changing"; these choices would greatly irritate Hux and the rest of the FO crew, which could lead to an attempt at Ben's life indeed. It just shouldn't happen too early in the movie, imo. If Ben doesn't make bad choices just because he can't, I don't think he will gain sympathy even he suffers where he is.

I like the idea of a replacement for Kylo though. It could be thrilling to see real Ben fighting with fake Kylo.


@californiagirl wrote:They really need to build up sympathy for Kylo. It's already an uphill battle. They haven't been treating the character like Vader, but rather presenting his conflict as one of his main attributes since TFA. This won't be a last 10 minutes of the movie thing.

Hux certainly wants to be the big bad, and they've heavily indicated he'll probably have nefarious plans, he's always been Kylo's foil, but I agree he might need help. Whether it's another military mastermind or the KoR. I'd be down for the KoR, since at least we've heard of them and they've been referenced in both films, and we know JJ made them a whole back story.

@californiagirl

I totally agree with the fact that Ben needs to inspire more sympathy to the audience that he does now. I think that people dont really understand this "calll of the light" that disturbs him. So far, we always saw people struggling with the "call of darkness", didn't we?. There's the misconception that Kylo had apparently no reason to become evil: he had loving parents (even if they were often absent, they loved him), he was raised in the light, didn't suffer from a big loss... Snoke's influence is revealed by Leia but we don't know to which extent Snoke influenced Ben, it doesn't help to have this "hole" in Ben's backstory.

This "pull of the light" is I think, a very strong element in Kylo's characterization: we learnt in the previous trilogies that the Dark Side was the easiest and most tempting sides; those who follow the EU have seen many heroes succombing easily to the DS, I think. Kylo's case is a curious one: he wants to be bad but can't help but feeling attracted to the Light! It should be easy for him to fall deeper in the DS considering what we learnt so far, but apparently for Ben it doesn't work that much: each time he does something utterly wrong, he is filled with regrets. Personnally, I think that it proves that Ben is an inherently good person (and not, as many think, an inherently evil one), so good actually that it's less easy for him to give in completely to the Dark Side than for other people, but who suffers a lot because,probably, being good didn't make him happy? he felt abandoned by his parents when they sent him away to Luke, probably felt even more abandoned when they believed Luke over him and didn't try to talk to him after the destruction of Luke's Temple? And when Han eventually tried, it was, as he said, "too late".. I guess that Snoke brainwashed him into believing that his parents had given up on him and didn't love him anymore; he also probably convinced Ben that turning completely to the Dark Side would make him powerful, that being powerful would make him happy at last, or at least, not miserable.

Imo, Abrams should provide a bit of flashback or at least some verbal explanations about what really happened, because, so far, we can only "guess", "imagine" what turned Ben to the Dark Side. But most of all, Ben will have to take conscience that the Dark Side is not the right way, that it won't make him happy or whatever he hopes to be. I realized recently that I was uncomfortable with the idea of "redemption", because I don't think that's what Ben really needs: I don't believe he needs to be excused for his past actions. I think that the message that this ST has to give, is that that even someone who has gone as far in the Dark Side as Kylo has CAN eventually come back from it. Not to save someone he loves, like Vader did (he actually already did it with Rey but it didn't make him better), but because he realizes that he was wrong to choose darkness over light, and that he has to do something to fix - as much as he can - the damages that he and the FO did.
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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by Chris24601 on Mon 28 Jan 2019, 1:00 pm

@Mila Lazarus
My thinking is that the opening crawl would be something to the effect of "Things weren't nearly so bad as we thought they'd be under Supreme Leader Kylo, but now a new wave of attacks has begun, more ruthless than any seen before." That would be the clue in the crawl that the First Order generals had staged their coup against Kylo.

Act One reveals that Kylo has been replaced and ends with Rey finding him.

Act Two begins with the newly freed/rescued Kylo wanting to regain his throne, but for all the wrong reasons. During the second act Rey convinces him that the best path to do this requires traveling through the dregs of the galaxy, where he ends up seeing first hand all the evils wrought by the First Order on the people of the galaxy.

Act Three is when Kylo finally gets his head right and decides he needs to remove the impostor and depose the First Order generals for the RIGHT reasons, which Rey helps him accomplish.

Basically, he ends up mirroring the path of his father in ANH; who starts the film as a selfish individual who is only helping for his own ends (he'll agree to help Rey, but only because it will get him his throne back), but by the end of the film he has had a change of heart and ends up saving the day along with Rey.

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Re: Who would be the new "Big Bad" for Ep IX? Do we really need one?

Post by Mila Lazarus on Tue 29 Jan 2019, 3:56 am

@Chris24601
I also wish Ben gets to travel through the Galaxy and see places where people suffer the most from the FO's bad actions. Since we know that Ben thinks that he's right to choose the Dark Side, probably because he believes as many that the world needs state violence and authority to be at peace... He would probably profit from being confronted to the horrors that his organization commits...

EDIT: I think it could be also interesting in such a scenario to have Ben Solo a prisoner of Rey... After all, why would she trust him? It would reverse the TFA situation, where Rey was Kylo's prisoner; the anti Reylos would have to stop claiming that this relationship is abusive. That wouldn't prevent them from chatting and falling progressively in love Wink
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