Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker Press Tour & Interviews

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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 1:55

From her comments in that interview, my best guess is that
Spoiler:
they've either made Jannah part of the community Finn was stolen from as a child. Or she's an actual relative he was separated from when kidnapped by the First Order. It accomplishes a couple of things for the story:

1. As an 11th hour character, it ties her back into the bigger picture of "The Empire Needs Children" theme of the ST. Especially in giving her a connection to the Finn,  who represents those stolen children.

2. It's a 2 hour and 35 minute movie that needs to wrap up the Saga and the ST plot lines with a limited amount of screen time. New characters don't really get the luxury of prolonged introductions or exposition because that takes away from the existing characters. But introducing new characters who are in service to the larger plots/themes is where Jannah likely fits in (like how I suspect Richard E. Grant's character has something to do with the Emperor).

3. Having her come on to the scene as somebody Finn is clearly close with, especially if it's reclaimed/restored family, will in turn twist the knife on the theme they've said for Rey that's her line in the trailer, she feels alone/isolated/like she has nobody. They've already shown her looking wistfully at Finn and Rose at the end of TLJ and Daisy's quote that Rey feels lonely in the Resistance -- seeing her friend get what she longs for, belonging and connection with others when she still has none, that's a good way to heighten tension in that relationship and within Rey's arc.

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Post by LadyGaufrette on Thu 31 Oct - 2:58

Also, Finn discovering that Jannah is his sister would be a nice parallel with Luke and Leia learning that they are twins in ROTJ.
I have the feeling he is talking to her in the trailer when he says that the Force brought them together.
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Post by Lily Snape on Thu 31 Oct - 5:19

@LadyGaufrette wrote:Also, Finn discovering that Jannah is his sister would be a nice parallel with Luke and Leia learning that they are twins in ROTJ.
I have the feeling he is talking to her in the trailer when he says that the Force brought them together.
@LadyGaufrette

I like this theory. I had just assumed it was Rey, but this is a really cool idea.
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Post by rey09 on Thu 31 Oct - 5:30

@snufkin wrote:From her comments in that interview, my best guess is that
Spoiler:
they've either made Jannah part of the community Finn was stolen from as a child. Or she's an actual relative he was separated from when kidnapped by the First Order. It accomplishes a couple of things for the story:

1. As an 11th hour character, it ties her back into the bigger picture of "The Empire Needs Children" theme of the ST. Especially in giving her a connection to the Finn,  who represents those stolen children.

2. It's a 2 hour and 35 minute movie that needs to wrap up the Saga and the ST plot lines with a limited amount of screen time. New characters don't really get the luxury of prolonged introductions or exposition because that takes away from the existing characters. But introducing new characters who are in service to the larger plots/themes is where Jannah likely fits in (like how I suspect Richard E. Grant's character has something to do with the Emperor).

3. Having her come on to the scene as somebody Finn is clearly close with, especially if it's reclaimed/restored family, will in turn twist the knife on the theme they've said for Rey that's her line in the trailer, she feels alone/isolated/like she has nobody. They've already shown her looking wistfully at Finn and Rose at the end of TLJ and Daisy's quote that Rey feels lonely in the Resistance -- seeing her friend get what she longs for, belonging and connection with others when she still has none, that's a good way to heighten tension in that relationship and within Rey's arc.

@snufkin

O yes love that third point about further isolating rey. Super true.

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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 7:30

@rey09 It's something that happened to the previous two trilogy protagonists. Despite appearing older and more confident in their identities and Force Powers, their isolation and loneliness from their relationships/peer group due to personal secrets/burdens to heighten the dramatic tension as the story kicks off. Granted it's a little different when it comes to Rey, because the pressure she's under is still more internalized due to:

1. Whatever the full extent/truth of what happened to cause her parents to abandon her and end up dead under pretty ignoble circumstances (dead in a pauper's grave is pretty much ending up like trash in a landfill). We as the audience still don't know the full story and JJ's "there's more to the story" and "it's something Rey thinks about every day" comments would lead you to suspect it will be explored as part of the personal burdens she's carrying.

2. They've hinted that Leia knows the full story about what happened between her and Ben, but most likely the rest of the Resistance doesn't. And Rey's position within the Resistance is probably centered on her friendship with Finn and relationship with Leia as a mentor.

Both of those details are far from resolved to a degree that Rey has some kind of catharsis and has settled on who she is as a person. Which is the statement they've made in interviews, the question is "Who is Rey?" and she herself speaks it in the trailer. Hence my thinking
Spoiler:
part of Jannah's role in the story besides helping carry the Resistance plot and Finn's story in particular is if she's shown to be connected specifically to his pas. That  helps further anchor his role/story (Resistance leader in a relationship with Rose) while showing Rey still at loose ends with who she is/where her belonging is despite the advances she's made as a Force user and no longer being a scavenger on Jakku.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct - 8:12

@snufkin wrote:@rey09 It's something that happened to the previous two trilogy protagonists. Despite appearing older and more confident in their identities and Force Powers, their isolation and loneliness from their relationships/peer group due to personal secrets/burdens to heighten the dramatic tension as the story kicks off. Granted it's a little different when it comes to Rey, because the pressure she's under is still more internalized due to:

1. Whatever the full extent/truth of what happened to cause her parents to abandon her and end up dead under pretty ignoble circumstances (dead in a pauper's grave is pretty much ending up like trash in a landfill). We as the audience still don't know the full story and JJ's "there's more to the story" and "it's something Rey thinks about every day" comments would lead you to suspect it will be explored as part of the personal burdens she's carrying.

2. They've hinted that Leia knows the full story about what happened between her and Ben, but most likely the rest of the Resistance doesn't. And Rey's position within the Resistance is probably centered on her friendship with Finn and relationship with Leia as a mentor.

Both of those details are far from resolved to a degree that Rey has some kind of catharsis and has settled on who she is as a person. Which is the statement they've made in interviews, the question is "Who is Rey?" and she herself speaks it in the trailer. Hence my thinking
Spoiler:
part of Jannah's role in the story besides helping carry the Resistance plot and Finn's story in particular is if she's shown to be connected specifically to his pas. That  helps further anchor his role/story (Resistance leader in a relationship with Rose) while showing Rey still at loose ends with who she is/where her belonging is despite the advances she's made as a Force user and no longer being a scavenger on Jakku.
@snufkin

It most likely will be vague with the Force aspects, yet I wonder if the book Resistance Reborn will give further insight with all of this.

I know it is disconcerting to many (or too many unknowns) to see Rey at loose ends, yet I find it absolutely fascinating. Originally, I felt that Leia would be her Force-user anchor, yet Leia has her own internal battles - so much on her plate. She's caring and empathetic, yet she has her boundaries as well...so it's all very interesting.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 9:21

@SW_Heroine_Journey My expectation is that the novel will give some moments between Rey and Leia related to their respective experience as Force users. Though a distinction between the two of them is that Leia still has a grounding in who she is outside of being a Force user, while Rey's still trying to figure all of that out. Because the ST is structured in a way that the main character mirror beats and themes between each other, I do find it interesting how Rey is contrasted with Leia and Luke in that respects. Their challenge has been the respective legacies/burdens of their biological parents, which Bloodline gets into for Leia and TLJ gets into for Luke. Depending on whatever's the full story about Rey's parents, they may also get into that challenge for her. But as of right now, it's a different burden/challenge for her - the feeling of being devalued because as Kylo said to her face, she was thrown away like garbage. That's why my suspicion given the press interview quotes and final trailer line is that she's going to continue with struggling with this emotion because she still hasn't landed on that sense of belonging Maz said was in her future. Which in turn mirror's JJ's recent New Yorker quote that Kylo having achieved what he thought he should have aspired for still feels wanting and "the hole just keeps getting bigger." So I suspect whatever role Jannah plays in the story, her relationship with Finn (as with Rose's) will serve to heighten the "I'll never be good enough and find what I want" emotions that are simmering underneath Rey's surface. That sh*t is going to come out hard in her reunion with the Supreme Leader after what they went through together and likely be an impetus for whatever the Dark Rey moment is.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct - 9:33

@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey My expectation is that the novel will give some moments between Rey and Leia related to their respective experience as Force users. Though a distinction between the two of them is that Leia still has a grounding in who she is outside of being a Force user, while Rey's still trying to figure all of that out. Because the ST is structured in a way that the main character mirror beats and themes between each other, I do find it interesting how Rey is contrasted with Leia and Luke in that respects. Their challenge has been the respective legacies/burdens of their biological parents, which Bloodline gets into for Leia and TLJ gets into for Luke. Depending on whatever's the full story about Rey's parents, they may also get into that challenge for her. But as of right now, it's a different burden/challenge for her - the feeling of being devalued because as Kylo said to her face, she was thrown away like garbage. That's why my suspicion given the press interview quotes and final trailer line is that she's going to continue with struggling with this emotion because she still hasn't landed on that sense of belonging Maz said was in her future. Which in turn mirror's JJ's recent New Yorker quote that Kylo having achieved what he thought he should have aspired for still feels wanting and "the hole just keeps getting bigger." So I suspect whatever role Jannah plays in the story, her relationship with Finn (as with Rose's) will serve to heighten the "I'll never be good enough and find what I want" emotions that are simmering underneath Rey's surface. That sh*t is going to come out hard in her reunion with the Supreme Leader after what they went through together and likely be an impetus for whatever the Dark Rey moment is.
@snufkin

Excited about TROS to begin with, yet reading your reply...even more, now!

I was so certain Dark Rey was a vision, because she was not seen in the football commercial trailer. Now, I am starting to doubt that conviction, and wonder if she is real. ?? (My mind starts to become dizzy with the how...)
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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 10:36

@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.


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Post by Dar-ren19 on Thu 31 Oct - 11:18

I would be really happy if Jannah and Finn were related... even if not brother and sister... just some kind of past connection between them before Finn was taken would be awesome. I'm one of those who didn't like his arc in TLJ... while I understood the need for it in terms of the overall story Rian was trying to tell... I felt as if Finn wasn't the right character for that arc. He needed more. His character DESERVED more than to be a cog in a machine and being sent on a fool's errand, even if that led to his ultimate integration into the Resistance (Rebel Scum).
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 31 Oct - 12:07

I think Finn is getting a pretty good storyline in TROS. In fact, I think he'll have more scenes than Poe.
John's an amazing actor so I'm glad for him, but also for his character, because Finn is so much more than comic relief.
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Post by Teo oswald on Thu 31 Oct - 15:40

@rey09 wrote:
@snufkin wrote:From her comments in that interview, my best guess is that
Spoiler:
they've either made Jannah part of the community Finn was stolen from as a child. Or she's an actual relative he was separated from when kidnapped by the First Order. It accomplishes a couple of things for the story:

1. As an 11th hour character, it ties her back into the bigger picture of "The Empire Needs Children" theme of the ST. Especially in giving her a connection to the Finn,  who represents those stolen children.

2. It's a 2 hour and 35 minute movie that needs to wrap up the Saga and the ST plot lines with a limited amount of screen time. New characters don't really get the luxury of prolonged introductions or exposition because that takes away from the existing characters. But introducing new characters who are in service to the larger plots/themes is where Jannah likely fits in (like how I suspect Richard E. Grant's character has something to do with the Emperor).

3. Having her come on to the scene as somebody Finn is clearly close with, especially if it's reclaimed/restored family, will in turn twist the knife on the theme they've said for Rey that's her line in the trailer, she feels alone/isolated/like she has nobody. They've already shown her looking wistfully at Finn and Rose at the end of TLJ and Daisy's quote that Rey feels lonely in the Resistance -- seeing her friend get what she longs for, belonging and connection with others when she still has none, that's a good way to heighten tension in that relationship and within Rey's arc.

@snufkin

O yes love that third point about further isolating rey. Super true.
@rey09

Spoiler:
and here you can understand that the belonging she is looking for is not there. I have only seen intimacy with Kylo.
the final described by the leaks tell us that Rey and company will be on Tatooine and lived happily ever after.
It seems strange to me, because if Rey sees that the belonging she seeks is not there, that ending is a colossal forcing. I would like it if the belonging is with Ben.
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Post by Armadeus on Thu 31 Oct - 16:32

@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.
@snufkin

The bolded kinda reminds me of the final lines of Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ where Jesus finally comes to terms with who he is and his place in the grand scheme:

Father, will you listen to me? Are you still there? Will you listen to a selfish, unfaithful son? I fought you when you called, I resisted! I thought of no more. I didn't want to be your son! Can you forgive me? I didn't fight hard enough. Father, give me Your hand. I want to bring salvation! Father, take me back! Make a feast! Welcome me home! I want to be Your son!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 31 Oct - 17:25

The fact that Rey feels 'isolated' gives me hope as a Reylo.

As I said before, when the war is over the Resistance will disband. People will come home to their families. And Rey.... doesn't have one. Finn has Rose, and possibly Jannah. Poe might rekindle his relationship with Zorri. And Leia....will be gone.
The fact is, why, if the Resistance is supposed to represent belonging to Rey, have they given Finn and Poe other love interests?
The fact is, Rey will either end this saga with Ben, or alone. And I really hope they don't listen to the toxic femininity brigade, and opt for the latter, because being a strong woman does not mean being a single woman.
Rey spent her entire life alone. To end her days alone to prove she's'so strong she doesn't need anyone' isn't a happy ending.
I do not see that type of heroine as a good role model for young girls, when apparently that's their intent.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 21:01

@Armadeus Based on the two ST to date plus Solo and details we've known for 3.5 years about the character being renamed after a real life son and the scene itself being written by a father & son, plus the prominence of the Golden Dice, that's pretty much my assumption going into TRoS. He bears the literal sins of the father on his shoulder, starting with all the baggage around his mother's biological father and the ugly/complicated legacy around it. But that "too much of your father's heart" is what will be the ultimate lesson and how he'll come through in the end.

Another thing I should add to my comments, while Rey feels lonely/isolated, it's not as easy as "she needs a boyfriend" because that's never the right answer (take it from my personal experience). It's that she needs to come to terms with what happened to her as a small child with her parents because she's been keeping secrets and putting on a face in order to survive, both in the material sense and psychologically. It's similar to what Ben's going through. But she's going to have to let all of that out into the open, hence Dark Rey, to experience catharsis and be able to function as an adult. That's also going to include her friendship with Finn, who's been honest with her about his origins while she's skirted the issue (JJ's director's track said it was embarassment) about her family and eventually she's going to have to tell him the truth about what the deal is with her and Kylo Ren. It's not going to be pleasant and it'll make her feel temporarily more alone/isolated. The OT skirted around these issues with Luke finally telling Leia the truth (and also dropped a bomb on her) and that spilled over into the ST and set up what happened to Ben. Part of the point of the ST is to get through all of that, which is why it's become equally my favorite to the OT in establishing some amount of psychological realism for the main characters.
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Post by Armadeus on Thu 31 Oct - 21:57

@snufkin wrote:@Armadeus Based on the two ST to date plus Solo and details we've known for 3.5 years about the character being renamed after a real life son and the scene itself being written by a father & son, plus the prominence of the Golden Dice, that's pretty much my assumption going into TRoS. He bears the literal sins of the father on his shoulder, starting with all the baggage around his mother's biological father and the ugly/complicated legacy around it. But that "too much of your father's heart" is what will be the ultimate lesson and how he'll come through in the end.

Another thing I should add to my comments, while Rey feels lonely/isolated, it's not as easy as "she needs a boyfriend" because that's never the right answer (take it from my personal experience). It's that she needs to come to terms with what happened to her as a small child with her parents because she's been keeping secrets and putting on a face in order to survive, both in the material sense and psychologically. It's similar to what Ben's going through. But she's going to have to let all of that out into the open, hence Dark Rey, to experience catharsis and be able to function as an adult. That's also going to include her friendship with Finn, who's been honest with her about his origins while she's skirted the issue (JJ's director's track said it was embarassment) about her family and eventually she's going to have to tell him the truth about what the deal is with her and Kylo Ren. It's not going to be pleasant and it'll make her feel temporarily more alone/isolated. The OT skirted around these issues with Luke finally telling Leia the truth (and also dropped a bomb on her) and that spilled over into the ST and set up what happened to Ben. Part of the point of the ST is to get through all of that, which is why it's become equally my favorite to the OT in establishing some amount of psychological realism for the main characters.
@snufkin

When Rey asked the mirror in the dark cave to show her her parents and all she got back was an image of herself, I took that to mean that it was telling her that she was the only one who could resolve that loneliness she'd been living with all her life. Not Luke, not Han, not Leia, and not some family that likely exists only in her dreams at this point. Sometimes the only person holding you back is yourself.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 22:15

@Armadeus Yep, it tells her the exact same thing Maz told her about how she has to stop looking behind herself. Because what happened with her parents won't (shouldn't) define who she is. I also love the use of mirrors as a cheeky in story way of showing how the story themes and character beats literally mirror back and forth between the major characters.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct - 22:36

@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.
@snufkin

As it's understood, Rey's history with her parents already involve a lot of pain and trauma...

...There have been theories that Rey killed her parents, which would involve quite the layer. I'm OK with it, if it occurs; however, not if it would dilute the storytelling power of Dark Rey. Do you feel Rey killing her parents adds an interesting layer to Dark Rey, or weakens it?
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Post by nickandnora on Thu 31 Oct - 23:12

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.
@snufkin

As it's understood, Rey's history with her parents already involve a lot of pain and trauma...

...There have been theories that Rey killed her parents, which would involve quite the layer.  I'm OK with it, if it occurs; however, not if it would dilute the storytelling power of Dark Rey.  Do you feel Rey killing her parents adds an interesting layer to Dark Rey, or weakens it?  
@SW_Heroine_Journey

I know you weren't asking me, but if I could offer my two cents.

I personally like it, though like anything it depends on how it's written.

For a long time I have been operating under the theory that as child Rey killed her parents in some sort of fit of rage using her powers (in a manner that could probably be construed to be an accident but could also straddle the line) and then made herself forget. It would fit with two character traits of Rey's that she hasn't quite come to terms with: she's impulsive (often in an aggressive or violent manner), and she represses feelings/emotions/events. The purpose would be, not only to serve as yet another mirror to Kylo, but also to highlight to the audience that anyone is capable of great darkness or misdeeds provided the right circumstances, and it's incumbent upon each of us to acknowledge that darkness, face it if we need to, and determine that we're not going to let it define us. Rey could (and will) likely do this regardless if this specific theory about her past is true, but only because those traits are still continually exhibiting themselves in spite of her repression; she hasn't dealt with it, that's why it keeps coming back until she's finally ready to face it.

Truthfully, if this WAS a twist, I can see it being mostly for the benefit of the audience and possibly Kylo; if he gets wind finally of the absolute truth of her past, I can see it hiding it from her out of love. Because it's not so much that she needs (in this hypothetical scenario) to face the *specifics* of what she did, especially if she was just an out of control little kid, it's that she needs to recognize her capacity to be "dark" and contain it, like ideally everyone on the planet should do.

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Post by nickandnora on Thu 31 Oct - 23:12

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.
@snufkin

As it's understood, Rey's history with her parents already involve a lot of pain and trauma...

...There have been theories that Rey killed her parents, which would involve quite the layer.  I'm OK with it, if it occurs; however, not if it would dilute the storytelling power of Dark Rey.  Do you feel Rey killing her parents adds an interesting layer to Dark Rey, or weakens it?  
@SW_Heroine_Journey

I know you weren't asking me, but if I could offer my two cents.

I personally like it, though like anything it depends on how it's written.

For a long time I have been operating under the theory that as a child Rey killed her parents in some sort of fit of rage using her powers (in a manner that could probably be construed to be an accident but could also straddle the line) and then made herself forget. It would fit with two character traits of Rey's that she hasn't quite come to terms with: she's impulsive (often in an aggressive or violent manner), and she represses feelings/emotions/events. The purpose would be, not only to serve as yet another mirror to Kylo, but also to highlight to the audience that anyone is capable of great darkness or misdeeds provided the right circumstances, and it's incumbent upon each of us to acknowledge that darkness, face it if we need to, and determine that we're not going to let it define us. Rey could (and will) likely do this regardless if this specific theory about her past is true, but only because those traits are still continually exhibiting themselves in spite of her repression; she hasn't dealt with it, that's why it keeps coming back until she's finally ready to face it.

Truthfully, if this WAS a twist, I can see it being mostly for the benefit of the audience and possibly Kylo; if he gets wind finally of the absolute truth of her past, I can see it hiding it from her out of love. Because it's not so much that she needs (in this hypothetical scenario) to face the *specifics* of what she did, especially if she was just an out of control little kid, it's that she needs to recognize her capacity to be "dark" and contain it, like ideally everyone on the planet should do.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct - 23:30

@nickandnora wrote:
@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey It doesn't matter whether it's an a vision or a costume change, it represents all the parts of herself (pain/trauma over what happened with her parents) she's had to suppress in order to survive. It's all coming out so she can have catharsis and move forward into adulthood.

ETA - forgot to add in something incredibly obvious. As the characters mirror different themes/beats back and forth between each other, Rey's particular challenge in trying to come to terms with who her parents were mirrors that of the Skywalkers. However it's Ben as a sort of dark mirror of Luke who mirrors back the "To much of his father ('s heart) in him" theme. Which for Ben, it's the burden/curse of the family legacy but as with Luke, he has to come to terms/integrate with who his father was. Which in Ben's case is Han, who's shown in the Saga, especially TFA, at his worst/most selfish and best/most selfless. He has the arc closest to what Luke went through in the ST - albeit not in coming to terms/making peace with his potential darkness, but in with his more human/vulnerable/supposedly lesser by class and not being FS. Ben mirrors back Luke with the patriarch he ultimately has to embrace and make peace with is Han. That's where the mirroring happens. I'm not 100% set on any idea about what they'll do with Rey, though I lean towards it being about her making peace with her parents being addicts who were human/vulnerable and paid a huge price by giving into weakness by abandoning her. Which is something she's going to have come boiling out of her and that she'll have to make peace with.
@snufkin

As it's understood, Rey's history with her parents already involve a lot of pain and trauma...

...There have been theories that Rey killed her parents, which would involve quite the layer.  I'm OK with it, if it occurs; however, not if it would dilute the storytelling power of Dark Rey.  Do you feel Rey killing her parents adds an interesting layer to Dark Rey, or weakens it?  
@SW_Heroine_Journey

I know you weren't asking me, but if I could offer my two cents.

I personally like it, though like anything it depends on how it's written.

For a long time I have been operating under the theory that as child Rey killed her parents in some sort of fit of rage using her powers (in a manner that could probably be construed to be an accident but could also straddle the line) and then made herself forget. It would fit with two character traits of Rey's that she hasn't quite come to terms with: she's impulsive (often in an aggressive or violent manner), and she represses feelings/emotions/events. The purpose would be, not only to serve as yet another mirror to Kylo, but also to highlight to the audience that anyone is capable of great darkness or misdeeds provided the right circumstances, and it's incumbent upon each of us to acknowledge that darkness, face it if we need to, and determine that we're not going to let it define us. Rey could (and will) likely do this regardless if this specific theory about her past is true, but only because those traits are still continually exhibiting themselves in spite of her repression; she hasn't dealt with it, that's why it keeps coming back until she's finally ready to face it.

Truthfully, if this WAS a twist, I can see it being mostly for the benefit of the audience and possibly Kylo; if he gets wind finally of the absolute truth of her past, I can see it hiding it from her out of love. Because it's not so much that she needs (in this hypothetical scenario) to face the *specifics* of what she did, especially if she was just an out of control little kid, it's that she needs to recognize her capacity to be "dark" and contain it, like ideally everyone on the planet should do.
@nickandnora

No worries! I welcome opinions about this from everyone!! Smile Very Happy

You're right, the key is if this is done well, yet if it is, it can be incredible in how it unfolds (for the characters, and us as the audience - as we watch it).

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 31 Oct - 23:47

I'd love this twist.
One of the reasons I liked Rey is that she's flawed. She isn't a pure, holier than thou heroine. But she also has a heart.
And yes, it truly would cement her similarity to Kylo.
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Post by snufkin on Thu 31 Oct - 23:50

FWIW I'm a skeptic on the "Rey killed her parents" theory because the time to unload a shocking/disturbing twist would be in the middle chapter. Not the finale where everything has to be wrapped up, like not just the ST, but for the entire Saga. That's a huge amount of information to unload on a character and have them process/overcome in the 11th Hour.

Also a skeptic because there's little I've noticed in terms of leitmotifs or character beats which point to this for Rey versus what they've done, especially via Han in TFA and Solo, to show specific themes/emotions/situations for her (yes I know he killed Beckett but that's meant to mirror what happened with Ben). There's a main theme they've shown for parents and children, they will always sacrifice (for good or bad) to ensure that their children are "what grows beyond them" to paraphrase Yoda. Every trilogy so far has shown parents doing that for their children with the one exception is the extemporaneous information dropped via Solo that Han's father lost his job and fell to drinking/bitterness which resulted in Han on the street and under Lady Proxima's control. That's the sole (har har) example which breaks the rule and even with Ben killing him, that in turn feeds back into that theme because Han's sacrifice is about overcoming what happened between him and his father and sacrificing himself to save Ben from the Darkness. So to date, I haven't seen anything specifically in the leitmotifs for the dialogue or character beats around Rey which point towards that conclusion. Which isn't to say that JJ couldn't go there, just that given how the stories have been structured/patterned, I don't see much evidence to support it as of right now.

Otherwise I think Dark Rey is the parts of herself she's kept hidden because of the pain of being abandoned/left to fend for herself that's tied up in her self image and worth now that she's around people.
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Post by nickandnora on Fri 1 Nov - 0:12

@snufkin wrote:FWIW I'm a skeptic on the "Rey killed her parents" theory because the time to unload a shocking/disturbing twist would be in the middle chapter.  Not the finale where everything has to be wrapped up, like not just the ST, but for the entire Saga. That's a huge amount of information to unload on a character and have them process/overcome in the 11th Hour.  

Also a skeptic because there's little I've noticed in terms of leitmotifs or character beats which point to this for Rey versus what they've done, especially via Han in TFA and Solo, to show specific themes/emotions/situations for her (yes I know he killed Beckett but that's meant to mirror what happened with Ben). There's a main theme they've shown for parents and children, they will always sacrifice (for good or bad) to ensure that their children are "what grows beyond them" to paraphrase Yoda. Every trilogy so far has shown parents doing that for their children with the one exception is the extemporaneous information dropped via Solo that Han's father lost his job and fell to drinking/bitterness which resulted in Han on the street and under Lady Proxima's control. That's the sole (har har) example which breaks the rule and even with Ben killing him, that in turn feeds back into that theme because Han's sacrifice is about overcoming what happened between him and his father and sacrificing himself to save Ben from the Darkness. So to date, I haven't seen anything specifically in the leitmotifs for the dialogue or character beats around Rey which point towards that conclusion. Which isn't to say that JJ couldn't go there, just that given how the stories have been structured/patterned, I don't see much evidence to support it as of right now.

Otherwise I think Dark Rey is the parts of herself she's kept hidden because of the pain of being abandoned/left to fend for herself that's tied up in her self image and worth now that she's around people.
@snufkin

I agree with you that they could simply go this way instead (and that maybe that's what they have been leading to this whole time). What's interesting about the leaks actually is that
Spoiler:
it's almost as though being Palpatine's descendant is a shorthand for darkness that she has within her than perhaps ACTUAL literal dark acts that she has done. The counterpoint to this information is the truth that her parents didn't abandon her at all, or at least not for the reasons she understands. That's why I find it bizarre that the leaks tells us that Kylo unloads more of her parentage reveal in some kind of odd information dump that we're supposed to see as taunting or evil, when really it's more of a reparation to the darkness she exudes from the pain of being abandoned (as you said). But maybe I'm not reading the leaks correctly, which is quite possible.

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Post by snufkin on Fri 1 Nov - 1:17

@nickandnora I'm leaks agnostic* as I went into TFA 100% cold and saw TLJ the same way and so far TLJ conformed 100% to what I expected/predicted based on what I've seen and the press/promotional materials to date for TRoS also conform with my expectations. The mania for Leaks has replaced what was the mania for Pablo's Tweets/"Well Pablo says" circa 2016-2017 that one could somehow not have an opinion or interpretation outside of what's discussed/fixated on in fandom circles. Based on what the writers themselves have said and analyzing the stories using the same thought process I was taught in school has been my MO. That's pretty much why I'm still a skeptic.

The only solid argument I can see based on actual evidence for "Rey killed her parents" is that Rian outright lifted several plot points from Looper for both Rey and Luke. But again, to date, the details he borrowed for Rey are from Young Joe (Joseph Gorden Levitt's character), who was sold off as a child by his mother in moment of desperation for a drug fix and that in turn drives the behavior of both his younger and future (Bruce Willis) iterations. There is the reveal that Cid kills his aunt in a fit of rage with his telekinetic powers and then he's shown doing it again when one of the Gat Men comes to the farm on the hunt for Joe and Sara. However they've not shown anything to date, in the movies which outright parallels that detail besides Ben's "I am a monster" admission (which Luke considering killing him to prevent further chaos & unleashing it is pretty much Old Joe killing all of the children who could be the Rainmaker & still causing it to happen in his timeline). So I'm not saying it's impossible JJ will go there in the story. Just I'm a skeptic based on both the amount of time/story they have left to cover in the final chapter and what character details/beats they've already used between 3 movies.

* Not only agnostic, I don't care to discuss them as they're hearsay.
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