Predictions for The Rise of Skywalker

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Post by madeinmn on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 3:43 pm

I don't think the world between worlds is time travel per se, but more like the astral plane where time does not exist. A slight difference for sure.
As far as Kylo's redeeming qualities and I agree with you he ended TLJ in a regression, which I am not sure why that was done but oh well we can't cry over spilled green milk. However, I am still one who is holding out on we the "audience" not having the full story on Kylo and his reasons for being a dark warrior but not a sith. I find that really interesting, and I think JJ is not done with Kylo' or Rey's backstories, we are bound to learn more about both, and the "reason" their destinies are entangled.

I don't think their destinies are entangled just for him to die at the end. I know many have sloganed for "Bendemption" but I am more like Half in the bag, Kylo is going to have a come to Jesus moment if you know what I mean, self realization, repentance and then atonement, it is the only way to sell his "rising" to the audience.[/quote]
@spacebaby45678

I completely agree with the bold here. If I could ask RJ one thing it would be why did he put Kylo/Ben through all that delicious growth only to throw it away...like....in a very awful "into the trash-can can" way. It's REALLY hard to explain to people why Kylo can and should be redeemed when Rian wrote him as complete pyscho in the Crait scene. So yeah, I guess we just have to wait and see....

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Post by Saracene on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 5:21 pm

I find it hard to see Kylo’s actions on Craig as real regression, when IMO he hasn’t really undergone a true growth previously, he’s basically still the same immature man-child who throws his toys when he doesn’t get what he wants. He was able to develop a relationship with Rey only because of very unique circumstances that took them both out of the real world. Once they were both back in the real world it all went pear-shaped.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 17 Jul 2019, 7:02 pm

This is why I'm glad they're being so open about the fight Rey and Kylo have. Marketing gives away none of the big reveals of the film, especially later in the runtime. If they're already talking about this duel, and putting out pictures of it, clearly this isn't the main conflict and probably happens within the first third or half of the film. Meaning that can be over and done with early on, giving Kylo more time to do selfless things and for his and Rey's relationship to develop.

Between Palpatine, Hux, Pryde, the KOR, possibly the sith troopers, whatever internal division the FO has, possibly Matt Smith's character, there's so many other baddies and existential threats, I don't think they're trying, even at this early stage, to spend much time on Kylo being evil.

TROS will certainly have some of the same messages as the earlier movies, but I see that as a good thing. It would come off wildly inconsistent of they didn't go that route, and moreover be depressing, not at all the intent of most of the franchise. George wanted a trilogy of trilogies, which the current filmmakers have been emphasizing recently, and for however much changed as it went along, I do expect some fundamental throughline or similarities thoughout.

There was a clip of George floating around recently about how some fans don't like to admit there is anything childlike in SW, that it all must be tough and manly and mature and serious. It was kind of hilarious. There were also a couple of other clips where he said how SW was basically about just loving everyone, that everyone was deserving of love. And that he's not supposed to say he made it for 12 year olds, but he did (that was Celebration a couple of years ago).

And if Kylo survives and gets to live happily ever after and there's a love story that ends on a high note, that's a pretty radical change of pace from RotJ, or the prequels. Vader ended that movie on a funeral pyre attended only by Luke.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 18 Jul 2019, 2:35 am

@Saracene wrote:I find it hard to see Kylo’s actions on Craig as real regression, when IMO he hasn’t really undergone a true growth previously, he’s basically still the same immature man-child who throws his toys when he doesn’t get what he wants. He was able to develop a relationship with Rey only because of very unique circumstances that took them both out of the real world. Once they were both back in the real world it all went pear-shaped.
@Saracene

I think it was at the LA premier that the cast was asked if they could play another character who would it be, Oscar answered Kylo because of the growth the character undergoes in the film. I think listening with empathy and in silence to Rey and offering her comfort was growth. I also think that saving Rey and killing Snoke was again growth for his character. Taking the throne and putting Hux in his place is again growth, darkside growth but real upward progress. So his complete meltdown over Luke is for me left field.

I completely agree with the bold here. If I could ask RJ one thing it would be why did he put Kylo/Ben through all that delicious growth only to throw it away...like....in a very awful "into the trash-can can" way. It's REALLY hard to explain to people why Kylo can and should be redeemed when Rian wrote him as complete pyscho in the Crait scene. So yeah, I guess we just have to wait and see....
@madeinmn

Because at this point Luke needs an "enemy" to give him his "heroic" moment. That is my guess.


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Post by guardienne on Sat 20 Jul 2019, 5:09 am

the way i feel is that kylo ren was a bare minimum sketch in TFA, something adam driver acted the s*** out of. that happens. someone with great talent is being given very little and it works.

and we all projected. it's much easier to project when the character is given so little screentime and back story. at the time i wasn't even sure if he was supposed to be the one to have wiped out the academy or what. it looks this piece of back story will still haunt us in another movie (treading water much?)

but anyway, johnson decided to emphasise a part of the projection that was all about how immature and incompetent he is. like in any fanfic, i reserve the right to dislike this characterisation and to criticise it. i also find, in this particular case, it contradicts traits that were also on screen.

so, my argument isn't that he developed a character (i think he is incapable of doing that, frankly) but that he took traits that fit his ... narrative.

i don't think there is much that can be retconned about the character in the new movie outside of time travelling and personality transplants. i think kylo ren will have to join forces with rey to fight palpatine and then come very close to dying, because drama, but not die because he's supposed to be a love interest.

personally i would have loved something beyond the 'lost puppy' thing they got going, because i think it is awesome to hold characters accountable for their actions and to show consequences. i think our world suffers from a lack of accountability and having it figure in a fantasy setting, would have given the sequels real depth and meaning. instead i'm guessing they are going to generate goodwill by pitching luke in whatever shape of form against palpatine again, as well as the reylos. and the meaning that will come from that is that love will overcome all the obstacles (which were ... none to begin with).
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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 21 Jul 2019, 7:37 am

SPOILERS FOR LION KING
Hey all so I went to watch The lion king and just wow !! Bring tissues if you see it though . lol. I’ve put this here because I really think it’s foreshadowing events /ideas that are going to happen in TROS . First of all I love the original lion king films and though they are dark I felt this was even darker .

Where do I start ?
Let me start with places and Mufasa. He really sounded like Vader in this ( love James Earl Jone’s voice ). Mufasa in this is even more awe inspiring , commanding than the animated version . He oozes power , wisdom ,charm and charisma ( and is godlike )but he is also a forgiving , loving father figure speaking to Simba from the heavens and warning Simba not to go to the beyond ( elephant graveyard)only to stay where the light touches . He says to Sarabi before the “ sun rises” Simba is her son but afterwards he is his son. Omg!

Regarding Scar . I felt like he was a combination of kylo, Loki, Hux and what I possibly think general pryde is going to be about .
There was a scene with Mufasa and Scar where Scar said something like “ you have the strength brother but I have the brains “ and it reminded me of Loki arguing with Thor .
His “Be prepared “song and speech was chilling and it reminded me of Hux’s Nazi style rally in TFA . And way he betrayed Simba was just horrible and cruel . He did remind me of Hux a lot to be honest and what he could possibly do ( remember Adam driver joked about being betrayed by Judas last year ).
There was a scene on pride rock itself where Scar says to Sarabi “you could have been my queen . Together we would have ruled “ which got me thinking initially this could be kylo saying this or maybe general pryde to leia ? It’s the kind of thing Kylo would say to Rey and it was on “pride “rock itself but then what if Leia and general Pryde had known each other ( if he is from one of mandalorian houses as some of us here suspect it’s possible he and Leia moved in the same social circles ). It’s food for thought .

I did feel too the scene where Simba confronts his uncle Scar at the end could be something we see between Luke and Ben maybe in a flashback ? That what scar did to Simba was awful and told him to run away and never come back . I don’t know if we will get anything as dramatic as that between Luke and Ben but it did perk my ears up thinking is there more to the Jedi temple scene than we know ?

Regarding Mandalore. Rafiki marks the drawing of Simba on the tree with the same three marks on his head that Finn was marked with and he says “ qualm “ which means fear, doubt , worry. Very interesting.

Simba for me was a combination of Rey and Ben . Rey as in she’s associated with Leo and believes she comes from nothing. Simba says I am nobody when he’s in exile .And he also has to forage or scavenge for food when he’s out in exile . He’s contrasted with the other scavengers we see in the film ie the vultures and the hyenas . There is a scene where he’s in the desert on his own left for dead and the vultures begin to gather and Timon and pumba come charging out of nowhere and it looks a bit like kylo in TROS trailer charging towards Rey in the desert in his ship .
There were so many references to letting the past go and Simba really believed he had killed his father and was in a bad way not being able to move on for that . And they stressed the loneliness and fear . I love the relationship between Nala and Simba and how they were childhood best friends but then separated and became life soulmates and how she bested him each time in their fights lol!
Moreover Nala kept asking Simba to come home - my ears really perked up at this because we had leaks last year from filming that Rey asks Ben to come home ??!!!
In the end Simba does take his place of course and becomes the king he is meant to be and takes his place in circle of life with their new baby lion cub( which we find out in lion king 2 is a girl ).

I so badly want this now for The Rise of Skywalker . Smile
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 21 Jul 2019, 10:38 am

@AhsokaTano

Released today by The Take, a wonderful analysis of The Lion King. The animated feature is the reference guidepoint, yet it relates to the recent computer animation remake, as well. Smile

The Lion King Explained: Let the Darkness In



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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 21 Jul 2019, 11:29 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey
I loved that video thank you .And it’s great analysis . Ben is even more like Simba than I thought and like Simba he initially wants to be king because he thinks it’s his birthright but he has to earn it and address the inequalities and learn lessons . It’s not just about getting to be king because of your legacy . The sad thing is that unlike Simba, Ben didn’t have great father figures to begin with so he’s going to learn the extra hard way unfortunately. Here’s hoping he gets there and makes it though.

Editing to add this : I did think it possible foreshadowing that Scar says in that video

“We shall rise to greet the dawning of a new era in which lion and hyena come together . ”
That’s interesting- union of opposites, lion(cat family ) with hyena ( dog family), Prince /king with scavenger , light and dark .
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 21 Jul 2019, 12:16 pm

@AhsokaTano wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey
I loved that video thank you .And it’s great analysis . Ben is even more like Simba than I thought and like Simba he initially wants to be king because he thinks it’s his birthright but he has to earn it and address the inequalities and learn lessons . It’s not just about getting to be king because of your legacy . The sad thing is that unlike Simba, Ben didn’t have great father figures to begin with so he’s going to learn the extra hard way unfortunately. Here’s hoping he gets there and makes it though.

Editing to add this : I did think it possible foreshadowing that Scar says in that video

“We shall rise to greet  the dawning of a new era in which lion and hyena come together . ”
That’s interesting- union of opposites, lion(cat family ) with hyena ( dog family), Prince /king  with scavenger , light and dark .
@AhsokaTano

You're very welcome!  Very Happy Smile

As an aside, what I nerdy love about the computer animation remake is that Shenzi (Florence Kasumba) is obviously the leader of the hyenas.  It's a fact that hyenas are a matriarchal society, so I was thrilled with it!  (It's also true, I never understood the heat Disney received for this) that hyenas and lions do not like each other.  It even goes beyond the understanding/explanation of biologists because it is a dislike that seems to exceed what we understand about animals and how they interact with each other.  

Anyway, back to TRoS - I'm thinking that a male figure that will help Ben to get there is Lando (it is interesting young Lando and computer animated Simba are both Donald Glover). Very Happy Smile  I feel Billy Dee's/Lando's presence in TRoS will be VERY important (it was not fan service).  To me, that is the ultimate irony because who knows the family dynamics and history, yet my headcanon is that Han and Leia maybe wanted Ben to hang out with Lando, when he was having his teenage sadness, frustrations, etc, yet they felt (especially Leia) that the pragmatic option is for Ben to hang out with Luke.   Saying Lando is a better male/godfather figure than Luke is not an insult to Luke, it's just that everyone has strengths and weaknesses and Lando would have been a better presence for Ben during that formative time.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 5:26 am

Ok this is not really a prediction but more an observation harking back to the lion king - specifically lion king 2 which is even more reylo than the first lion king and deals with the next generation having to deal with the legacy of the previous generation . Scar ( the son) is banished by Simba and the song “ Not one of us “ starts . See below . This also got me thinking anout Lost series ( another J.J. abrams creation ) and how jack had a tattoo that said “ he who walks among us is not one of us “. Really interesting. You know how my mind works lol and I can’t help seeing foreshadowing and seeing connections everywhere especially after lost series they did say it would return but not in its current format ( incarnation it made me think of ). Somebody is destined for something amazing in
Rise of Skywalker is how I see it foreshadowing wise &
Maybe we really are getting a saviour or two saviours who will lead everyone to paradise , a new world :

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 23 Jul 2019, 1:35 pm

@AhsokaTano


I wanted to wait until I saw the movie for myself before commenting. First off, the movie was just ok. Of all the reboots I would put it second behind Aladdin for me. The kiddies in the audience loved it they clapped at the end and I still cried when Mufasa dies. OMG Chiwetel was really really good as Scar. Happy for Jon F. and it makes me really look forward to The Mandalorian.

Now to the LK/ST parallels

Of course for the Simba & Rey there are lessons on Pride Rock about the circle of life ( force) and avoiding the shadowy place/darkside. Also, wanting to see the father/parents and only finding a reflection of themselves.

Rafiki: Who are you?
Simba: I am nobody
Rafiki: Everybody is somebody even a nobody

Scar: What are you? Say it! Say it...
Simba: I am nothing

Simba in his battle with Scar.. tells him " I have the higher ground"


Let the past die! ..... Timon and Pumbaa  teach Simba about the advantages of Nihilism in their song “Hakuna Matata,” calling it their “problem-free philosophy,”  Don't sweat anything, Timon tells Simba forget the past live only for the future. Timon rejects the idea of a “circle of life” in which interconnectedness implies mutual responsibility. Life, Timon suggests, is less a “circle” than a “meaningless line of indifference” ending with annihilation at death.Timon runs off a bunch of nihilistic internet memes like... You do you etc. I wish I could remember them all.

For me I guess besides teaching about the circle of life ( the force) and ideas about ecology and not over using our earth's resources. I think Jon really made a big push back on Nihilism and I appreciated that. This is a life affirming film as was the original.
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Post by Gemini on Wed 24 Jul 2019, 2:47 pm

So the biggest message and theme I got from John Favreau's Lion King  was that nihilism and being nothing absolutely sucks and is the absolute worst place in limbo for a hero to be.  In the words of Rafiki to Simba (when he is in firm belief he is nothing and life is meaningless): "Everybody is a somebody, even a nobody." He then proceeds to find his father and channel his strength through who he truly is.

Also scar using Simba feeling like a Nobody to weaken him and almost destroy him.

Simba: "I'm nothing", he loses his footing and falls until he channels the strength of who he truly is. The son of a king.



All seems awfully familiar.....especially when Simba looks into the pool and sees his own reflection before looking harder and seeing his father. Reminds me of Rey looking into the mirror and seeing herself...
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Post by AhsokaTano on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 5:00 am

I found this prediction/speculation on Reddit

https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/ch8mke/my_version_of_bens_fate_a_blind_exile_roaming_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

which I thought very interesting since it gives Rochester ( Jane Eyre) , dune series( Paul atreides), and New Testament ( Paul ) vibes plus it is consistent with Star Wars saga because we’ve seen this a lot and also then it got me thinking of the Anchorites and the Mortis gods having to cut themselves off from society due to their powers because it’s the only way . I wonder if we go back to Jakku whether we’ll see these anchorites or maybe the point of referring to
them in the saga is to show that Ben and Rey are going to be different and live amongst the people instead and spread that the force is for everyone. Not for the few.
Anyway food for thought.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Anchorite
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Again though the 1000 years number comes up and binding themselves to the force ( binding of Loki /Satan for 1000 years ). Just want to say too that on the same day that the kylo age of resistance comic is coming out marvel are also publishing a new Loki comic called Loki unleashed . Am not saying they are one and the same because I think it’s probably dealing with archetypes but it’s weird. Also weird is the Anchorite leader on Jakku kolob telling Rax that his pain and suffering has begun which is similar to what the other ( who sounds exactly like the father from mortis ) tells Loki in avengers assemble.

Is project luminous Hollywood’s way to transition to the age of Aquarius ie the age of the water bearer/healer , feminine age , altered consciousness which is more spiritual and less aggressive and war mongering ( and more associated with Loki /masculinity ? ) And this is what they are doing through film and media ? If you look at other luminous projects around the world they seem to be linked to altered consciousness, women and children and moving to more spiritual plane .
That Star Wars mural from celebration with the chakras colours throughout seemed to hint too we are moving to a more spiritual state in the saga. This of course doesn’t mean Ben and Rey can’t be together it’s just their relationship will be more than physical intimacy because they are bound by the force so it will be spiritual too.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 25 Jul 2019, 11:09 am

@Gemini wrote:So the biggest message and theme I got from John Favreau's Lion King  was that nihilism and being nothing absolutely sucks and is the absolute worst place in limbo for a hero to be.  In the words of Rafiki to Simba (when he is in firm belief he is nothing and life is meaningless): "Everybody is a somebody, even a nobody." He then proceeds to find his father and channel his strength through who he truly is.

Also scar using Simba feeling like a Nobody to weaken him and almost destroy him.

Simba: "I'm nothing", he loses his footing and falls until he channels the strength of who he truly is. The son of a king.



All seems awfully familiar.....especially when Simba looks into the pool and sees his own reflection before looking harder and seeing his father. Reminds me of Rey looking into the mirror and seeing herself...
@Gemini

“We had a long talk with each other,” Favreau told GQ Middle East while promoting his new film The Lion King. “One thing [George Lucas] said to me was, ’remember, Jon, the real audience for all stories and all myths is the kids that are coming of age’, because he’s really a Joseph Campbell adherent.

"Favreau continued, “We enjoy the stories as adults, but really, storytelling is about imparting the wisdom of the previous generations on to the children who are becoming adults, and giving them a context for how to behave and how to learn the lessons of the past without making the mistakes on their own. That’s the hope, that you can teach them how to avoid all the hardship but garner all the wisdom.” You might even call it some sort of circle, maybe of life."
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 12:12 am

The original LK was five years before the premier of TPM, enough time for GL to have seen it and because his kids where of the VHS generation I bet he saw it over and over Razz  Now when it comes to Jon F. and LK did he go meta on TLJ? I say it could be, simply because the changes in the dialogue in the final confrontation between Scar & Simba are different than the original and reflect more of the conversation between Kylo & Rey in the throne room scene.



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Post by DeeBee on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 4:14 am

@californiagirl wrote: This is why I'm glad they're being so open about the fight Rey and Kylo have. Marketing gives away none of the big reveals of the film, especially later in the runtime. If they're already talking about this duel, and putting out pictures of it, clearly this isn't the main conflict and probably happens within the first third or half of the film. Meaning that can be over and done with early on, giving Kylo more time to do selfless things and for his and Rey's relationship to develop.
-yeah!! While I think whatever your expectations of TROS you can find something to be happy about in marketing, I feel a warm glow when I see the Rey and Kylo fight is on the 'safe to talk about list'! lol
I found the wording of Daisy's comment curious and I look forward to seeing what else is said about it.
“I just think they’ve done a great job with all the relationships. With the fun friendships, and with the sort of strange thing with Rey and Kylo… also we have a great fight. A great fight," explained Ridley. "And I was really happy that the Vanity Fair pictures did show a bit of it. It’s a great fight. Like I’ve become such a better fighter and they made the lightsabers lighter, so it actually looks like we’re swinging light and not like heavy.”
Lots of we had a great fight... this could have been said of the fight in the throne room in TLJ too - and they were fighting together!!!!!

@californiagirl wrote: Between Palpatine, Hux, Pryde, the KOR, possibly the sith troopers, whatever internal division the FO has, possibly Matt Smith's character, there's so many other baddies and existential threats, I don't think they're trying, even at this early stage, to spend much time on Kylo being evil.

TROS will certainly have some of the same messages as the earlier movies, but I see that as a good thing. It would come off wildly inconsistent of they didn't go that route, and moreover be depressing, not at all the intent of most of the franchise. George wanted a trilogy of trilogies, which the current filmmakers have been emphasizing recently, and for however much changed as it went along, I do expect some fundamental throughline or similarities thoughout.

There was a clip of George floating around recently about how some fans don't like to admit there is anything childlike in SW, that it all must be tough and manly and mature and serious. It was kind of hilarious. There were also a couple of other clips where he said how SW was basically about just loving everyone, that everyone was deserving of love. And that he's not supposed to say he made it for 12 year olds, but he did (that was Celebration a couple of years ago).

And if Kylo survives and gets to live happily ever after and there's a love story that ends on a high note, that's a pretty radical change of pace from RotJ, or the prequels. Vader ended that movie on a funeral pyre attended only by Luke.
@californiagirl
I lean toward not seeing much evil Kylo in TROS because we've seen enough.. I got the vibe that in terms of his own evil, the meltdown on Crait was the final straw.. but I can be corrected here.. we'll see.

I agree that Kylo becoming Ben Solo again and living happily ever after with the co-protagonist of the series whom the force basically created as his equal is a perfect way to finish the saga. On all levels. I look forward to seeing how we get to this end point if we get there!

One little note on the bolded. you got me thinking about Vader's end in ROTJ.
I agree that Vader did not get the happily ever after with his one true love.. but..
He did get a happy ending of sorts.
It could be said that Vader died on the death star when he chose to toss the Emperor down that shaft.. and Anakin lived - for a short enough time, to be able to make peace with his son.
Predictions for The Rise of Skywalker - Page 11 Captur10
And... ROTJ ends with Anakin having been reunited with Obi-Wan and Yoda as force ghosts- and I think, looking happy to be there, happy to have made the choice to return to the light.. and IMHO I think he is happy to see peace restored to the galaxy through his final act- I think he's happy Palpatine is no more.
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lol - all of course based on Anakin's point of view at the time that the Emperor was dead.. and possibly subject to change in TROS.
I quite like this ending for Anakin - but since he didn't get the full happily ever after treatment, it makes sense we will see it with the final movie in the saga.

So what does everyone think - will we see Anakin in TROS?
Will we see Vader?
Do we need to see either do you think?
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Post by Gemini on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 8:07 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:The original LK was five years before the premier of TPM, enough time for GL to have seen it and because his kids where of the VHS generation I bet he saw it over and over Razz  Now when it comes to Jon F. and LK did he go meta on TLJ? I say it could be, simply because the changes in the dialogue in the final confrontation between Scar & Simba are different than the original and reflect more of the conversation between Kylo & Rey in the throne room scene.



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@spacebaby45678

I would certainly say Rey resembles Simba more than Kylo, if we are comparing the two stories for prediction purposes. Firstly, Rey is the Protagonist in the ST, not Kylo, he is currently the Antagonist. The name Rey literally translates to King.  Simba didn't actually kill his dad, he witnessed the antagonist kill his dad (like Rey witnessed Kylo kill her father figure, if you consider Han to be her father figure). I would say Kylo is more in the position of Scar, currently...he even has a scar across his eye. However, I don't think Kylo is pure evil and will be irredeemable like Scar. He will be redeemed but I'm currently failing to see similarities between Simba and Kylo.
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Post by fuhry on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 10:57 am

@DeeBee To me the way to work Palpatine's "return" is not to retcon what happened in ROTJ, but to introduce the idea that Palpatine always foresaw the possibility that Vader would betray him and he had some sort of contingency in the event of his death to make sure to sow chaos in the life of Anakin/Vader and his descendants. To prevent the Rise of Skywalker and to keep the force unbalanced.

I think the idea of Palpatine having a plan to sow discord and evil even after he's no longer around to see it is just the sort of thing he would do. Evil just for the joyful f**** of it, that's Palpatine to a T! His plans may include Snoke, the corruption of Ben Solo, force sensitive clones, even a clone of himself.

I like the idea of Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo all stuck in some sort of puzzle/maze/nightmare of Palpatine's design in the ruins of the old death star, and part of Ben's realization is that he has been a pawn in Palpatine's posthumous game, and decides to work with Rey to solve/destroy/end it.
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Post by DeeBee on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 8:16 pm

@fuhry wrote:@DeeBee To me the way to work Palpatine's "return" is not to retcon what happened in ROTJ, but to introduce the idea that Palpatine always foresaw the possibility that Vader would betray him and he had some sort of contingency in the event of his death to make sure to sow chaos in the life of Anakin/Vader and his descendants.  To prevent the Rise of Skywalker and to keep the force unbalanced.

I think the idea of Palpatine having a plan to sow discord and evil even after he's no longer around to see it is just the sort of thing he would do.  Evil just for the joyful f**** of it, that's Palpatine to a T!  His plans may include Snoke, the corruption of Ben Solo, force sensitive clones, even a clone of himself.  

I like the idea of Rey, Finn, Poe, and Kylo all stuck in some sort of puzzle/maze/nightmare of Palpatine's design in the ruins of the old death star, and part of Ben's realization is that he has been a pawn in Palpatine's posthumous game, and decides to work with Rey to solve/destroy/end it.
@fuhry

Hi fuhry, great to hear from you- hope you are well.
I pretty much agree with everything you've said here, it's delicious to ponder!

Just to be clear - I was not saying anything about a retcon in my comments - never entered my head. To me, it's just part of the story that Anakin could not have known Palpatine had maybe found a way to survive in some way.

I love this idea of Palpatine returning and needing to be destroyed for good.
Yeah, Palpatine always took great delight in Vader trying to double cross him, and he saw it as a natural state of affairs. I saw this a lot in the comics. less so in the Skywalker movies. But it makes total sense he would have had some kind of expectation that one day Vader would make his move - I do think he didn't see it happening the way it played out, Vader turning on him out of love for his son, but I think how it happened didn't matter probably as the contingency plan was already in place to cover however it happened.

your puzzle/maze/nightmare sounds cool! I love the image that creates!
[sounds like the famous quote: a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma- sounds like Palps!]

Yeah - Ben is a pawn - but then so is the whole galaxy to Palpatine.
Even the force itself is a tool Palpatine uses to bring about his own ends- he has no limits and is amoral.
At the moment I'm liking the idea that the workings of the force has been uniquely corrupted by Palpatine, and it is against the will of the force that it remain so out of balance in such a way.
I see the force as now fighting back- we see this through the rising up of Ben, Rey and their 'raw power'! and the awakening of the force after it's slumber - the force is now ready to roll out it's dealing with Palpatine once and for all remedy- Bring it on!!!!  
I think the Skywalker saga is not just a story of the skywalkers, but a story about the liberation of the Force itself.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 26 Jul 2019, 11:38 pm

One thing I've noticed with the ST is using the term “garbage” in Rey's scenes, which that term is very specific to the OT. I also noticed a couple other details from the OT during the last TNT  marathon which got my brain turning them over. Because they are referencing some of these verbal motifs and details in the ST, it made me wonder if these might be hints as to what’s going on with the Emperor’s return.

The thing with people being shocked about his return is that the order the movies were made in. As an older/OT fan, my mindset has been that  TFA is the next chapter after the OT. Which ends the story with the Emperor being thrown to his death. But Lucas made the PT most recently before the ST and that adds additional information about the specific power the Emperor used to lure Anakin to the Darkside. And the crux of the ST story, especially what we've been guessing for TROS hinges on these scenes.



It's not just that the Emperor learned the dark magic of how to cheat death and uses that in turn as bait in manipulating Anakin's downfall. It’s his comment that he could save others from death but not himself. The assumption from that moment simply is that the Emperor learned the skill from his master and then murdered his master in turn. But knowing how the writers have referenced/used certain phrases again in the ST makes me wonder if the implication is that the Emperor managed to one better his master and learned how to use that power to save himself from death. Which there’s been the entire story told in several of the tie-in novels about his Contingency Plan.

Speaking of RotJ, when that movie came on and it got to the scene where Luke has Obi-Wan finally admit the truth about his father, another line of dialogue caught my attention




To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

Offspring isn't just Luke and Leia but any and all descendants, which includes Leia’s son. Who as the child of two heroes is anything but anonymous (JJ, "this kid had a target on his back."). It's another reason why Reylated wouldn’t make sense - the Emperor has long identified all offspring of that one person as threats to him staying in power/controlling the galaxy. Hence the novel title Bloodline and the dialogue from Snoke about "the power of your bloodline."

Finally from TFA itself, also written by Lawrence Kasdan, Snoke is introduced in a scene that's meant to evoke the Emperor's introduction and touch on the uneasy/conflicting connections between fathers and sons



In TFA it's finally admitting who Ben's actual identity is after being brought up in the first scene by LST. But the Emperor's line holds true here too, "the son of Skywalker." Which in this situation, "son of Skywalker" means Leia's son who inherited his Force powers/legacy through her family. Which I'd still suspect after 2 movies and Solo being loaded with allusions to Han that he will break the cycle because of "too much of his father's heart in him" (honestly just listen to the dialogue and motifs between 8 movies and they're not repeated b/c people were too lazy to write something new). Also the scene with Snoke pretty clearly sets up the same "there is a disturbance/awakening...we have a new enemy," who is Rey. Ben got pressured/convinced to kill Han as a test of not failing the DS the way Vader and Luke both did by not killing each other because of the familial bond. But Rey is the Force's wildcard against what's been going on and he pretty clearly 'failed' (yet also kinda surpassed) that test in killing Snoke to protect her.

tl:dr – it’s possible whatever they have planned for the Emperor has to do with him mastering the dark art of cheating death and being a threat to all of Anakin’s offspring, not just the first generation. Which I’m basing my guess on revisiting the OT and PT and noticing the multiple details/motifs from those films appearing as part of the ST story.

Unrelated to watching the OT/PT marathon on TV, but as a film nerd I can’t believe that I’ve yet to see any discussion (or if I’ve missed it, please point me in the right direction) about how Terrio wrote Argo, in which the characters pull off a rescue operation under the guise of producing one of the copycat space opera movies which came out after Star Wars.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 27 Jul 2019, 10:13 pm

@snufkin wrote:One thing I've noticed with the ST is using the term “garbage” in Rey's scenes, which that term is very specific to the OT. I also noticed a couple other details from the OT during the last TNT  marathon which got my brain turning them over. Because they are referencing some of these verbal motifs and details in the ST, it made me wonder if these might be hints as to what’s going on with the Emperor’s return.

The thing with people being shocked about his return is that the order the movies were made in. As an older/OT fan, my mindset has been that  TFA is the next chapter after the OT. Which ends the story with the Emperor being thrown to his death. But Lucas made the PT most recently before the ST and that adds additional information about the specific power the Emperor used to lure Anakin to the Darkside. And the crux of the ST story, especially what we've been guessing for TROS hinges on these scenes.



It's not just that the Emperor learned the dark magic of how to cheat death and uses that in turn as bait in manipulating Anakin's downfall. It’s his comment that he could save others from death but not himself. The assumption from that moment simply is that the Emperor learned the skill from his master and then murdered his master in turn. But knowing how the writers have referenced/used certain phrases again in the ST makes me wonder if the implication is that the Emperor managed to one better his master and learned how to use that power to save himself from death. Which there’s been the entire story told in several of the tie-in novels about his Contingency Plan.

Speaking of RotJ, when that movie came on and it got to the scene where Luke has Obi-Wan finally admit the truth about his father, another line of dialogue caught my attention




To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born. The Emperor knew, as I did. If Anakin were to have any offspring, they would be a threat to him. That is the reason why your sister remains safely anonymous.

Offspring isn't just Luke and Leia but any and all descendants, which includes Leia’s son. Who as the child of two heroes is anything but anonymous (JJ, "this kid had a target on his back."). It's another reason why Reylated wouldn’t make sense - the Emperor has long identified all offspring of that one person as threats to him staying in power/controlling the galaxy. Hence the novel title Bloodline and the dialogue from Snoke about "the power of your bloodline."

Finally from TFA itself, also written by Lawrence Kasdan, Snoke is introduced in a scene that's meant to evoke the Emperor's introduction and touch on the uneasy/conflicting connections between fathers and sons



In TFA it's finally admitting who Ben's actual identity is after being brought up in the first scene by LST. But the Emperor's line holds true here too, "the son of Skywalker." Which in this situation, "son of Skywalker" means Leia's son who inherited his Force powers/legacy through her family. Which I'd still suspect after 2 movies and Solo being loaded with allusions to Han that he will break the cycle because of "too much of his father's heart in him" (honestly just listen to the dialogue and motifs between 8 movies and they're not repeated b/c people were too lazy to write something new). Also the scene with Snoke pretty clearly sets up the same "there is a disturbance/awakening...we have a new enemy," who is Rey. Ben got pressured/convinced to kill Han as a test of not failing the DS the way Vader and Luke both did by not killing each other because of the familial bond. But Rey is the Force's wildcard against what's been going on and he pretty clearly 'failed' (yet also kinda surpassed) that test in killing Snoke to protect her.

tl:dr – it’s possible whatever they have planned for the Emperor has to do with him mastering the dark art of cheating death and being a threat to all of Anakin’s offspring, not just the first generation. Which I’m basing my guess on revisiting the OT and PT and noticing the multiple details/motifs from those films appearing as part of the ST story.

Unrelated to watching the OT/PT marathon on TV, but as a film nerd I can’t believe that I’ve yet to see any discussion (or if I’ve missed it, please point me in the right direction) about how Terrio wrote Argo, in which the characters pull off a rescue operation under the guise of producing one of the copycat space opera movies which came out after Star Wars.
@snufkin

All of this is a delight!

Speaking of Terrio, @californiagirl shared an amazing Twitter thread about him which seems to support that J.J. wanted Terrio to keep track of, and incorporate into TRoS, the important details that involve what you share!

https://twitter.com/slipgoingunder/status/1148412816879210496

"Okay, I've made it up to TRoS and here's my take:
Batman V Superman is often cited as "why" Terrio was chosen, but it's a pretty huge detour in his work. This dude is an intellectual and seems to love research, historical pieces, and very literary stuff"

https://twitter.com/slipgoingunder/status/1148391776820105216

(the above is the link for the beginning of the twitter thread)
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Post by snufkin on Sat 27 Jul 2019, 10:39 pm

People who cite BvS are showing their f**king ignorant a**es. Terrio apprenticed with Merchant and Ivory before Argo and if anything got roped into working for DC because he’d worked for/with Affleck as a writer (like I’d bet the final version of the script that got them an Oscar was his work) . Which from JJ mentioning that they’ve known one another for a long time it’s likely he brokered that introduction. But it’s easier for people to run their mouths off than go do some basic research so we’ll eventually get people going “WOW did you guys realize the plot of Argo has to do with Star Wars?!” ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 27 Jul 2019, 10:56 pm

Seeing that now too with Robert Pattinson with his Batman casting. (What is with Batman as a connecting factor? lol) People who criticize it are obviously not familiar with most (or all) of his acting work.

With Terrio, I never felt concern because I trust J.J., and Terrio is an Oscar winner! I'd like to think (admittedly, I don't know for sure) that Diana/Wonder Woman was an amazing presence in BvS thanks to him, along with Gal's performance (and she, Patty Jenkins and Allan Heinberg took it from there with the solo movie).
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Post by snufkin on Sat 27 Jul 2019, 11:05 pm

Oh yeah the Pattinson s*8t talk is ridiculous, like god forbid people go watch a Claire Denis or Safdie Brothers movies. Even in something more conventional like The Lost City of Z he's the best part.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 28 Jul 2019, 8:37 am

@Snufkin
@SW_Heroine_Journey
“He could save others but not himself .” I’d forgotten that piece of dialogue . He couldn’t save himself because plagueis didn’t have Rey .


And talking of which I just watched short circuit today( the film ) because it was on UK tv ( didn’t plan to watch it but it was just on) and yes though it’s very dated ( 80s film)and there are aspects of it that are cringey and uncomfortable ( Fisher Stevens ) a couple of things struck me as ... interesting.
It reminded me big time of toy story 4 where the robot is alive and aware he’s alive ( like Forky and female forky ) but also at one point Steven Gutenberg says “ God keeps what he wants to keep “ because like doubting Thomas he can’t believe number 5 is alive ( the robot ) but he also acknowledges the creator can do what it likes and at the end of the day number 5 being alive is a miracle beyond his understanding and power .
The ending pinpoints to possible TROS foreshadowing - the company Nova that made Number 5 come for him and it “ appears “ that he died as they attack and shoot him down . In the van when he’s getting away ( always three there seems to be as number 5 is in there with his two helpers ) he gets up and admits he made a replica of himself with parts so it looked like he died but he didn’t . So basically ... a clone !
Again in the prestige film a similar thing happens in a different way .

I wonder if we are getting something similar in TROS.... Anakin built a droid as a kid and became mostly a machine as Vader ( cyborg ). Kylo mentioned a clone army in TFA- I wonder why and what he’s been up to ? ...
anyway food for thought Smile
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