Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by Gemini on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 2:28 am

Btw.. I think the most recent South Park episode Band in China  may have dropped a spoiler/made  comment about the failure of TLJ.

Their (Stan, Kyle etc) band is called Crimson Dawn and China make them re write the second act of their band story to appease China. They then refuse and continue with the story they want to actually write for the third act.

Disney and kylo are in the episode as well.

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Screen30



It would not be the first time they dropped spoilers


They sing about Pride and Glory and getting off a farm (luke)

They end up going back to the farm. Lol.

A big white board is placed in front of them with a three act structure.

They recall their story as Act 1:  lost a close friend (kyle) loneliness in the works

Act 2: inner conflict over direction of band (Kyle missing)

Stan is forced to re write the second act with China censoring  it.

Kyle comes back for act 3

They make a K pop band to try and appease china and then they refuse to sell out and go back to doing what they want to do. Heavy metal.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 3:03 am

I'm genuinely saddened by the hatred for TLJ.
Okay, it wasn't perfect. The Canto Bight scene was completely unnecessary to the story, apart from them meeting DJ. I tend to skip that part to be honest, although I liked the fathier escape;any dig at animal cruelty is fine by me. I do think that Rian included the scene in order to lighten the mood, as TLJ is pretty dark. But the movie worked on most levels, and the performances especially from Mark and Adam, were outstanding.
A lot of men argue that it made the men look stupid and the women amazing, but if on see it more than once, the women make as many s**** ups as the men. Holdo took the wrong attitude to Poe. Rose quite happily went along with Finn and Poe's misguided adventure. And Rey....
Always acted before she thought. She always has, ironically something Yoda saw (and I suspect secretly admired) in Luke. When Luke turned his back on her after the but explosion she hitt him from behind. An old man, albeit a powerful one, yet she hit him in the back. I actually found that scene more shocking than her reaching for the sabre, another scene where she was too impulsive. The beauty of TLJ is that NO ONE IS PERFECT. It's summed up by DJ telling Finn that the Resistance bought their weapons from the same arms dealer as the FO.

It's the best quality of the fim, and I'm hoping JJ will explore it further in the TROS.
One more thing......when Holdo stroked Poe's face before he was loaded aboard the transport I got the strong impression that she might have been very like him when she was young, but had learned from experience.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 3:15 am

I think the main problem with TLJ was that they tried to go too left field, far too late in the game. It was a risk and it failed. The aftermath can be felt in the recent film releases and amusement parks etc.


There is nothing, imo  wrong with going in that direction, but it was a huge mistake to do it in the second to last installment of a complete saga which has already set up lore and rules. I am still stunned that they tried to risk this. These are professionals in Hollywood. Its shocking to me. To even do a complete u turn on the previous movie which managed to salvage SW? Its unbelievable.

It needs it's own new characters and story to develop this kind of ideal, etc in a way which will be accepted.
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Post by Teo oswald on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 3:41 am

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Ec1d17c19af2a3c496e31c560cc312856a96c4dc

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 166bb4707b48beb1d02e343369ac7f9df228d758

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Tumblr_inline_ou9rvncOIS1um03lu_540

our Kylo knows !!!!
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Post by Saracene on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 3:45 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:A lot of men argue that it made the men look stupid and the women amazing, but if on see it more than once, the women make as many s**** ups as the men. Holdo took the wrong attitude to Poe. Rose quite happily went along with Finn and Poe's misguided adventure. And Rey....
Always acted before she thought.
@motherofpearl1

It's a matter of how the characters are framed, though. The movie never calls out Holdo for her wrong attitude to Poe, she's framed instead as a noble hero that he badly misjudges. It never calls out Rose for her part in the whole adventure either. As for Rey... yes she's impulsive, but her last scene with Luke is mostly about her being righteously angry and him fessing up about a lie he's told and the terrible mistake he'd committed with Ben. And in the throne room scene, the movie puts Rey in an impossible position where she basically has little other choice; Resistance is getting decimated in front of her eyes and Kylo made it abundantly clear that he won't be moved, so what else is she supposed to do in the situation?
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Post by OrionStars on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 4:42 am

@Saracene wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:A lot of men argue that it made the men look stupid and the women amazing, but if on see it more than once, the women make as many s**** ups as the men. Holdo took the wrong attitude to Poe. Rose quite happily went along with Finn and Poe's misguided adventure. And Rey....
Always acted before she thought.
@motherofpearl1

It's a matter of how the characters are framed, though. The movie never calls out Holdo for her wrong attitude to Poe, she's framed instead as a noble hero that he badly misjudges. It never calls out Rose for her part in the whole adventure either. As for Rey... yes she's impulsive, but her last scene with Luke is mostly about her being righteously angry and him fessing up about a lie he's told and the terrible mistake he'd committed with Ben. And in the throne room scene, the movie puts Rey in an impossible position where she basically has little other choice; Resistance is getting decimated in front of her eyes and Kylo made it abundantly clear that he won't be moved, so what else is she supposed to do in the situation?
@Saracene



Oh god, this is so true, I think a lot of people don't understand the rule of "show, don't tell" in movies. I've seen SW fans on another forum said they couldn't understand why the Reylos thought Kylo loved Rey because Kylo didn't say it out loud that he loved her in TLJ at all.  Sapristi
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Post by Gemini on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 5:15 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:A lot of men argue that it made the men look stupid and the women amazing, but if on see it more than once, the women make as many s**** ups as the men. Holdo took the wrong attitude to Poe. Rose quite happily went along with Finn and Poe's misguided adventure. And Rey....
Always acted before she thought.
@motherofpearl1

It's a matter of how the characters are framed, though. The movie never calls out Holdo for her wrong attitude to Poe, she's framed instead as a noble hero that he badly misjudges. It never calls out Rose for her part in the whole adventure either. As for Rey... yes she's impulsive, but her last scene with Luke is mostly about her being righteously angry and him fessing up about a lie he's told and the terrible mistake he'd committed with Ben. And in the throne room scene, the movie puts Rey in an impossible position where she basically has little other choice; Resistance is getting decimated in front of her eyes and Kylo made it abundantly clear that he won't be moved, so what else is she supposed to do in the situation?
@Saracene



Oh god, this is so true, I think a lot of people don't understand the rule of "show, don't tell" in movies. I've seen SW fans on another forum said they couldn't understand why the Reylos thought Kylo loved Rey because Kylo didn't say it out loud that he loved her in TLJ at all.  Sapristi
@OrionStars

See, this is the thing. So many folks dismiss visual storytelling. Because it's open to interpretation. Fine. But to say it's not there or meaningless, no. It's incredibly unfashionable in modern cinema to info drop. I.e massive dialogue description. Instead it is written in with visual methods and direction and minimal dialogue. Visual storytelling is a form of exposition which must always move the story forward and reveal something about the character.

Every scene and word must push the story, character and back story and link to the ending.
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Post by DeeBee on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 5:49 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Frankly I'm not interested in Rey's parentage. Han Solo was a 'nobody' who didn't even know his surname, and he became a legend!

All I want is a happy ending for Reylo.
@motherofpearl1

A lot of people are interested though.

Han was never the main protagonist of the trilogy he did not need a lineage. Luke, the protagonist, did.

Rey is not a side character, Rey is not a simple love interest of the main chatacter like Padme either. She is the main character and hero. Kylo is her love interest.

I know that many Reylos don't care about Rey's lineage or why she even cares about this greater Skywalker saga. Just as long as she loves Kylo and there is a happy ending for Reylo.  But believe you me JJ and Terrio know that the majority the general audiences cares? Just look at Terrio's laser focus..

One of them is a simple one: ‘Who is Rey?’
, which is a question that people not only wonder about quite literally, but wonder about in the spiritual sense. How can Rey become the spiritual heir to the Jedi? We kept coming back to ‘Who is Rey?’, and how can we give the most satisfying answer to that not only factually – because obviously people are interested in whether there’s more to be learned of Rey’s story – but more importantly who is she as a character? How will she find the courage and will and inner strength and power to carry on what she’s inherited?The second one is, ‘How strong is the Force? … What is the Force and how strong is the Force?’ Those two things were really important.”

Why does he keep coming back to that... because it is an essential question that has somehow not been eked out as much as it should have already over two movies.

I am happy that Terrio and JJ "get it" and are not trying to shame the audience.
@spacebaby45678

Hello! Just dropped in during the busy week to throw out there my 2 cents on this..
I am a Reylo, and I don't care about Rey's lineage - meaning, I don't need her to be related to someone of significance. But that doesn't mean that her origins and story don't matter. For me, the question of 'Who is Rey?' is extremely important to answer - But I don't think to answer this we must know her lineage and that it must be significant.

It's significant that 'Who is Rey?' isn't answered by who her family was.
She's special - whoever her parents are.
Her force abilities don't have to be a result of her lineage.
In SW language, she is a chosen instrument of the cosmic force. I think the story is heading toward the conclusion that: you don't need to be a Skywalker or even a child of a famous force user to be an instrument of the cosmic force. The force has chosen Rey to be a spiritual heir to the Jedi...
[the true Jedi  Very Happy Remember this official artwork I shared last week:
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Efs-zl10
-at least I'm thinking this is official. do correct me if this is wrong please!-
'True Jedi'. a thousand generations live in her now.
What Snoke said in the TLJ throne room was: "Ohhhh… still that fiery spit of hope- you have the spirit of a true jedi!!!!" ]
Rey's inheritance of significance is from the Jedi, not from her parents or grandparents.
Rey's force abilities and connection to Kylo may have some kind of explanation provided in TROS, but I don't think that explanation must come from her lineage. It may, and I am sure if that's the story we get I will love it.
sunny

edited to add:
I know we've seen a few of these pages.. from official 16 month calendar.. but here's the back where we can see more pages:
SOURCE
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 18_mon10


Last edited by DeeBee on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 5:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 5:56 am

@Saracene wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:That Terrio gave such a great interview about Rey, Kylo, their dynamic, and all of the SW saga for that Empire cover and what most of fandom at large took away from it was just more parentage theories is honestly a bit discouraging.
@californiagirl

I don't know, I'm still waiting for anyone involved to discuss the Rey and Kylo dynamic from Rey's point of view? We keep hearing how "complicated" it is, but so far it only sounds complicated on Kylo's side. The only indication that Rey cares about Ben at all after TLJ is from some novel nobody knows or cares about except the diehards.
@Saracene

This!... The ST is supposed to be feminine gaze but we still know so little about Rey's feelings and motivations that either it is not feminine gaze or the gaze has failed to give proper exposition and narrative context to the female protagonist. We are still lacking a personal positive thesis statement for Rey like Luke had in ANH. " I want to learn the ways of the force and become a Jedi like my father" What is Rey's thesis statement? I will wait.

I know that I from the beginning has spent a ton of time trying to figure out what Rey means spiritually. Please check out TROS & TAROT thread right here. In my own studies of Tarot, have concluded that Rey is the avatar of the Force in the Age of resistance... translated or decoded here on earth she is the avatar in the Age of Aquarius. That alone is so deep and meaningful I have no idea why TLJ wasted so much time on Luke's box of pain and Kylo's shoddy backstory. If Rey truly is the avatar of the force spiritually I don't even know why any writer would waste time on Reylo and I say that as an OG Reylo... Ah, but over the past 4 years, I have evolved and learned so much that the Saga now has a deeper meaning for me than just... Are Kylo and Rey going to kiss at the end? Hey, but I would still like that too. I want everything.. Smile

However, in a Saga where spirituality is tied to legacy and lineage... I find it strange that people are still trying to shame fans for using lineage as a starting point to figure out the meaning of a character. Rey is the protagonist, she embodies the meaning of the ST itself. In the final installment in a saga where Luke's lineage causes him to struggle with dark and light, where Kylo struggles with the pull to the light it is because of his lineage and family.

Then to have the temerity to excoriate fans for thinking about lineage in regards to Rey yet at the same time pimp a different version of "lineage" or Rasion d Entre for Rey's connection to Kylo.." reincarnated reverse Anidala..." Someone, please tell me how is that any worse or better than dude-bros "Rey is a reincarnation of Anakin"? Even though I thoroughly believe in ring theory and understand that reverse ( not reincarnated) Anidala is an element but not the main ring reversal happening the ST which is easily provable if one is not operating from a place of confirmation bias. So why can't the reverse Andiala-ist just let Rey be Rey? Why must she fix the Skywalker family abuse drama for Kylo? WHERE IS HER STORY? Terrio said... Kylo's speech was half manipulation and half heart to heart. Is Kylo reversing Rey's alcoholic trash abusive parent drama for her? Who and what family for REY specifically are the parallels, connections, and spiritual reversals for? Is John Williams connecting any Leit Motifs from other characters to her? Or are we going to take Kylo's word that Rey, is nothing and has no "place" in the story unless he confers her belonging by offering her a place at his side?


That women in 2019 think that this is the story is a huge discouragement to me.








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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:04 am

@DeeBee wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Frankly I'm not interested in Rey's parentage. Han Solo was a 'nobody' who didn't even know his surname, and he became a legend!

All I want is a happy ending for Reylo.
@motherofpearl1

A lot of people are interested though.

Han was never the main protagonist of the trilogy he did not need a lineage. Luke, the protagonist, did.

Rey is not a side character, Rey is not a simple love interest of the main chatacter like Padme either. She is the main character and hero. Kylo is her love interest.

I know that many Reylos don't care about Rey's lineage or why she even cares about this greater Skywalker saga. Just as long as she loves Kylo and there is a happy ending for Reylo.  But believe you me JJ and Terrio know that the majority the general audiences cares? Just look at Terrio's laser focus..

One of them is a simple one: ‘Who is Rey?’
, which is a question that people not only wonder about quite literally, but wonder about in the spiritual sense. How can Rey become the spiritual heir to the Jedi? We kept coming back to ‘Who is Rey?’, and how can we give the most satisfying answer to that not only factually – because obviously people are interested in whether there’s more to be learned of Rey’s story – but more importantly who is she as a character? How will she find the courage and will and inner strength and power to carry on what she’s inherited?The second one is, ‘How strong is the Force? … What is the Force and how strong is the Force?’ Those two things were really important.”

Why does he keep coming back to that... because it is an essential question that has somehow not been eked out as much as it should have already over two movies.

I am happy that Terrio and JJ "get it" and are not trying to shame the audience.
@spacebaby45678

Hello! Just dropped in during the busy week to throw out there my 2 cents on this..
I am a Reylo, and I don't care about Rey's lineage - meaning, I don't need her to be related to someone of significance. But that doesn't mean that her origins and story don't matter. For me, the question of 'Who is Rey?' is extremely important to answer - But I don't think to answer this we must know her lineage and that it must be significant.

It's significant that 'Who is Rey?' isn't answered by who her family was.
She's special - whoever her parents are.
Her force abilities don't have to be a result of her lineage.
In SW language, she is a chosen instrument of the cosmic force. I think the story is heading toward the conclusion that: you don't need to be a Skywalker or even a child of a famous force user to be an instrument of the cosmic force. The force has chosen Rey to be a spiritual heir to the Jedi...
[the true Jedi  Very Happy Remember this official artwork I shared last week:
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Efs-zl10
-at least I'm thinking this is official. do correct me if this is wrong please!-
'True Jedi'. a thousand generations live in her now.
What Snoke said in the TLJ throne room was: "Ohhhh… still that fiery spit of hope- you have the spirit of a true jedi!!!!" ]
Rey's inheritance of significance is from the Jedi, not from her parents or grandparents.
Rey's force abilities and connection to Kylo may have some kind of explanation provided in TROS, but I don't think that explanation must come from her lineage. It may, and I am sure if that's the story we get I will love it.
sunny


edited to add:
I know we've seen a few of these pages.. from official 16 month calendar.. but here's the back where we can see more pages:
SOURCE
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 18_mon10
@DeeBee

I love this post... Rey has a deeper meaning to the story outside her relationship to Kylo.. However JJ & Terrio want to spin that.

Now think of it this way. If Rey is a nobody who inherits a thousand generation of Jedi light that was extinguished by Palpy. How do you see a Reylo ending if THAT is the STORY?


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Post by DeeBee on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:07 am

I'll get back here soon to read your reply spacebaby .. just gonna share this and then scoot because it's late in DeeBee land and my brain is fried.
Hey all- edited to add, again:
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Poster10
This looks to be official unless it's a really good fake.
SOURCE
Why is there only 5 Knights of Ren and not six?
You think this means something?

I found this new decal design..
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Kor610
there are six.. [SOURCE]
Which one is missing from the poster all?
byeeee! sunny
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:09 am

I guess you just can't win them all.
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Post by OrionStars on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:11 am

@DeeBee wrote:I'll get back here soon to read your reply spacebaby .. just gonna share this and then scoot because it's late in DeeBee land and my brain is fried.
Hey all- edited to add, again:
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Poster10
This looks to be official unless it's a really good fake.
SOURCE
Why is there only 5 Knights of Ren and not six?
You think this means something?

I found this new decal design..
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Kor610
there are six.. [SOURCE]
Which one is missing from the poster all?
byeeee! sunny
@DeeBee


What if Rey joined the squad and she is the seventh Ren? I mean technically she's a ronin, right?
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 6:46 am

@Gemini wrote:Btw.. I think the most recent South Park episode Band in China  may have dropped a spoiler/made  comment about the failure of TLJ.

Their (Stan, Kyle etc) band is called Crimson Dawn and China make them re write the second act of their band story to appease China. They then refuse and continue with the story they want to actually write for the third act.

Disney and kylo are in the episode as well.

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Screen30



It would not be the first time they dropped spoilers


They sing about Pride and Glory and getting off a farm (luke)

They end up going back to the farm. Lol.

A big white board is placed in front of them with a three act structure.

They recall their story as Act 1:  lost a close friend (kyle) loneliness in the works

Act 2: inner conflict over direction of band (Kyle missing)

Stan is forced to re write the second act with China censoring  it.

Kyle comes back for act 3

They make a K pop band to try and appease china and then they refuse to sell out and go back to doing what they want to do. Heavy metal.
@Gemini

Okay eagle eyes.. what are you onto now??? Lol. I hate south park, hate the humor...at first South Park spoiling anything sounded completely ridiculous.. but then I did my research and yup they have done it before.. Red Redemption? GOT? so let's see.. can we make anything of all of this?

Lyrics...

Fate is over open your eyes
Get me off this farm ( Luke wants off the farm)
There is no hope, no second chance ( A New Hope)
All the elders saw, the fall of the sky ( That's no moon)
Pride and Glory
To touch the sky we have burned the earth
built our own infirmity ( Death Star)

The band is called Death Decline and the song is Useless Sacrifice.

Okay.. the producer looks just like Iger

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Tumblr_pz5prgQN5a1y8hadgo2_540
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQW9lcnMVmlNmSkgm9z5DhWYAwnivaGDgZTVbrakD6_YzrN4rVZ

When the band starts playing everything goes red and black like Maul..

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 Tumblr_pz5prgQN5a1y8hadgo1_540
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 For-darth-maul-being-chopped-in-half-with-a-lightsaber-is-only-the-beginning-photo-u1?w=650&q=50&fm=pjpg&fit=crop&crop=faces

I don't know, it is interesting... but I have no solid hits as far as spoilers go.. maybe I need to see the whole show.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 7:03 am

Now that is the face of a villain!
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 7:19 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Now that is the face of a villain!
@motherofpearl1

What?... Maul... is UWU Maul.. is baby.. victimized by Palpy, kidnapped from his mother...Obi Wan understood this and tried to tell Maul he sympathized...

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 36 78f62a33b865d2116cd3c9fb608634f4e87e5a3b_00
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 7:25 am

Well, he was a good bad guy!
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Post by Gemini on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 7:29 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Well, he was a good bad guy!
@motherofpearl1

He was effin awesome! agreed!
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:37 am

I want Rey to have her own story and journey as well, and that's where my issues with her having a lineage reveal in the very last movie come from. And I don't believe she's just another Luke, or only being used for the romance part of the plot.

I have an incredibly difficult time comprehending the idea that if Rey doesn't have a notable lineage, there's no point to her, or the ST, at all. There's no lessons, no themes, no character arcs, no plot resolution. All those years and hundreds of millions of dollars and A-list talent absolutely wasted, contributing nothing of any value to SW or storytelling in general, all because… Rey parents weren't so-and-so. I'm not sure what to tell all the creatives if that's the net gain of their efforts and passion.

Everything involving the films has to be approved by so many people, but we act as if the SG isn't a thing and every director can go around and do whatever they want with no attention or respect given to anyone or anything else except their own desires. On the contrary, it would seem the opposite is true. So many directors in the brief era of Disney SW, but only two, JJ and Rian, have survived their first SW films, let alone been offered more than one.

If JJ repeatedly says he never felt the need to fix anything from previous movies, that he loved the TLJ script, and that he and Rian were so supportive of the other's work, I'm inclined to believe him. I know people still haven't gotten over the Khan episode, but if JJ's really that untrustworthy, why do we believe anything he ever says? He might as well just stop giving interviews, and by extension, stop making movies for which he would need to interview in the first place, if we have that little respect for him.

People, and especially kids, were attached to Rey from TFA before anyone said who she was. To say the lead character, let alone the first female one of SW, has nothing of worth, no significance to her actions or personal qualities, no justification for having a story or existing at all, unless she has a last name, is just… yikes. It strikes me as a little dismissive to focus more on her offscreen, likely dead parents than anything she personally does. If that's the only thing regarding her that matters, it's not actually about her at all. I'm not sure what this leaves Rey with, if most of her value is attached to others. I thought this was the complaint people had with TLJ, as discussed in recent posts. This doesn't really improve the situation, nor flow with her arc in the past two films.

Perhaps the part that mystifies me the most is what such a reveal two thirds to three quarters of the way through a story would actually do. What purpose does it serve? What is the role of this reveal? What does Rey gain from this? An inheritance? Power, of the political or supernatural varieties? A cool lightsaber like the one Luke got from his father? (Meanwhile I'm still sitting here wondering what happened to the green saber and if it's just chilling in R2's compartment.) More people who want to kill her? (I think she has plenty of enemies already, but I digress.) Shame? Belonging with people who are already dead? Extended family? Would it be unseemly for the characters to achieve victory not because of their own merits, but because they were given the key to success by their parents? That sort of stands in contrast to the ST's distinct angle of previous generations not truly winning, but leaving even more problems for their descendants to fix. What is the function of a parental reveal at this late stage other than simply being a piece of information that just sits there? I'm not sure how this ties into the plot and what it does for Rey, let alone not undo any progress she's made or hinder her from realizing or perusing her own wants or gaining her own identity. That was what I got out of Terrio's comments.

I'm not out to shame the audience, I just find it depressing that so much of the discussion around the main character actively tries to avoid said main character herself. It doesn't matter what the filmmakers do, people project onto her whatever they want: Mary Sue, feminist icon, the person who will destroy Kylo, the person who will marry Kylo, etc. (admittedly I'm on that last team). And somehow it's supposed to be empowering to have a protagonist that only serves as a vessel for other characters or plot points and claims so little for her own. Like I said, I don't think she's being used solely for other characters' journeys.

The issue isn't that a lineage is inherently bad, it's prioritizing it above everything else, and that it becomes less and less useful, and even counterproductive, the longer the story holds out on it. Rey does need more closure, and so does the audience. I've seen some people who don't believe it should be addressed or include any further information at all, which I think is a little extreme. But closure means an end to what is already established, not a complete 180, starting and ending an entirely different story at the conclusion.

I think everyone here wants a good story and character development for Rey outside of other character's arcs, there's just conflicting ideas about what that looks like and how it would be approached.
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Post by nickandnora on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 11:44 am

To play Devil's Advocate a bit: somewhat of a solution to this might be that Rey's "lineage" (if it is different from TLJ) is revealed to the audience, but not to Rey herself. When I think about this story, I think that one possibility that might make sense is that the truth of what happened to Rey on Jakku might actually be *worse* than what Kylo told her, and is perhaps something she's not meant to know for her own good and for the greater good. Maybe her *thinking* that she's just another abandoned orphan, and growing past that, is the part that's essential to the story.

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Post by Mila95 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 1:36 pm

To me it's not really the problem if Rey has a special lineage or not. I was most excited coming into TFA to see the kids of OT characters, I expected more than one and I would have been fine with Rey Skywalker, Solo, Kenobi, Palpatine or whatever. My issue is that they then went on to push a theme of how you can be a hero without the lineage and that's what Rey represents (way better than someone like Han or Finn or Poe because they weren't the main jedi protagonists). So to then make her the kid or grandkid of someone important and reveal it in the 3rd movie after revealing something else in the second movie is dumb imo, no matter what technicality they use to say it isn't. There's also the fact that it would have been made a mystery for basically no reason other than creating hype which just overshadowed Rey as a character imo. It's been 2 movies dealing with her parents/family in some way and mostly seem to say she needs to let go of it and she's enough on her own(the conversation with Maz in TFA and basically every Rey scene of TLJ). And if the leaks are true we're dealing with it again so Rey can say no to Palpatine as her family and her last moment in the movie is taking the name Skywalker and again being defined by the past that's not even her own.

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Post by Saracene on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 3:44 pm

Rey’s problem is that she’s a protagonist in an ongoing family saga that she (so far) has no personal connection to. I think that it wouldn’t have been an issue if the ST was a soft reboot like JJ’s Star Trek, where the OT characters were there but firmly in the background. But the ST instead introduced the whole family tragedy and a legacy character in Ben Solo, which is basically like throwing a lead ball on a rubber sheet, it’s going to distort everything around it. If you’re trying to tell new unconnected characters’ stories *and* continue the saga, the new characters and their stories will suffer because they simply can’t have the same weight. In this sort of story, connections and blood relations matter, which is why Kylo is the character with the most dramatic meat to him (and BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that Kylo’s lineage “diminishes” his character or makes his story “not really about him”).

As for JJ and RotS, we’ll wait and see, but bringing Palpatine back to me certainly smacks of trying to fix the Big Bad vacuum that TLJ created. It was a bold move to kill off Snoke, but it means that the next film needed to figure out Kylo’s redemption story without a bigger villain in it, or choose an unlikely Big Bad in Hux say. JJ clearly chose to steer the ship back into the familiar waters.
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Post by Mila95 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 4:14 pm

@Saracene wrote:Rey’s problem is that she’s a protagonist in an ongoing family saga that she (so far) has no personal connection to. I think that it wouldn’t have been an issue if the ST was a soft reboot like JJ’s Star Trek, where the OT characters were there but firmly in the background. But the ST instead introduced the whole family tragedy and a legacy character in Ben Solo, which is basically like throwing a lead ball on a rubber sheet, it’s going to distort everything around it. If you’re trying to tell new unconnected characters’ stories *and* continue the saga, the new characters and their stories will suffer because they simply can’t have the same weight. In this sort of story, connections and blood relations matter, which is why Kylo is the character with the most dramatic meat to him (and BTW, I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that Kylo’s lineage “diminishes” his character or makes his story “not really about him”).

As for JJ and RotS, we’ll wait and see, but bringing Palpatine back to me certainly smacks of trying to fix the Big Bad vacuum that TLJ created. It was a bold move to kill off Snoke, but it means that the next film needed to figure out Kylo’s redemption story without a bigger villain in it, or choose an unlikely Big Bad in Hux say. JJ clearly chose to steer the ship back into the familiar waters.
@Saracene

I think the legacy aspect works better with Kylo because it was revealed in the first movie, it's actually about him as in he deals with consequences of being a Skywalker and imo most importantly there's no mistery about his parantage but rather the stuff we don't know and can speculate about is things like why did he turn, what was his relationship with his family and Snoke, what happened to make him kill the other students, what was his life like at the jedi academy, his relationship with the KoR etc. With Rey because they set her up as a kid who just waited on Jakku until the moment we meet her, all the focus of the mystery surrounding her parantage is about the family, who they were, how and why they left her, and then if it's someone like Obi Wan or Palpatine as grandfather there's a whole other story about when and with who they even had the kid rather than keeping the focus on Rey which is what diminishes her story.

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Post by Saracene on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 4:40 pm

@Mila95 wrote:I think the legacy aspect works better with Kylo because it was revealed in the first movie, it's actually about him as in he deals with consequences of being a Skywalker and imo most importantly there's no mistery about his parantage but rather the stuff we don't know and can speculate about is things like why did he turn, what was his relationship with his family and Snoke, what happened to make him kill the other students, what was his life like at the jedi academy, his relationship with the KoR etc. With Rey because they set her up as a kid who just waited on Jakku until the moment we meet her, all the focus of the mystery surrounding her parantage is about the family, who they were, how and why they left her, and then if it's someone like Obi Wan or Palpatine as grandfather there's a whole other story about when and with who they even had the kid rather than keeping the focus on Rey which is what diminishes her story.
@Mila95

Agreed on Kylo, but there are plenty of stories about the protagonists dealing with an important heritage that they only discover in the course of the story (like the OT for instance). The real problem with Rey’s setup in TFA IMO is that “who are Rey’s parents” is never set up as something *Rey* cares about in-story, it’s only something that the fans cared about. As it is, Rey’s need to move on from Jakku is essentially a one-movie arc that’s complete by the end of the film, and the dragging out of the parents storyline in TLJ didn’t work at all because of it.
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Post by Mila95 on Thu 10 Oct 2019, 4:43 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Mila95 wrote:I think the legacy aspect works better with Kylo because it was revealed in the first movie, it's actually about him as in he deals with consequences of being a Skywalker and imo most importantly there's no mistery about his parantage but rather the stuff we don't know and can speculate about is things like why did he turn, what was his relationship with his family and Snoke, what happened to make him kill the other students, what was his life like at the jedi academy, his relationship with the KoR etc. With Rey because they set her up as a kid who just waited on Jakku until the moment we meet her, all the focus of the mystery surrounding her parantage is about the family, who they were, how and why they left her, and then if it's someone like Obi Wan or Palpatine as grandfather there's a whole other story about when and with who they even had the kid rather than keeping the focus on Rey which is what diminishes her story.
@Mila95

Agreed on Kylo, but there are plenty of stories about the protagonists dealing with an important heritage that they only discover in the course of the story (like the OT for instance). The real problem with Rey’s setup in TFA IMO is that “who are Rey’s parents” is never set up as something *Rey* cares about in-story, it’s only something that the fans cared about. As it is, Rey’s need to move on from Jakku is essentially a one-movie arc that’s complete by the end of the film, and the dragging out of the parents storyline in TLJ didn’t work at all because of it.
@Saracene

Yeah I agree. I think it could have worked but not after the the way it was dealt with in both TFA and TLJ.You can't keep sending a let go and move on message and then every single movie keeps dragging it out lol

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