Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by Gemini on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 3:06 pm

I understand both sides of the argument when it comes to the fact that people should care about Rey for being Rey and not about her connection to other characters.

This is why I get a bit annoyed when some people only care about Rey through the ben lens and what she means to Ben's story, its always ben centric. Like the comment on how Rey shouldn't be facing Palpatine alone without Ben, why not? she is the protagonist. Ben may aid her here but she has every right to be the one to cast the final blow (I still have a sneaky suspicion that it may not actually go down that way and they both cross the sabers together instead though.) But Rey doing it on her own is normal and doesn't have to always have Ben hovering over her to make her actions more significant and meaningful for her or the audience. Her world does not revolve, only around him.

In terms of people connecting her to other characters from the saga. I can see why its irritating because they have kept the back story hidden and shrouded her in mystery. They have literally fed us nothing (I personally believe this is to give us the emotional punch right at the end) but in most stories, you get, at least some backstory trickled in here and there and it explains who someone is, how they came to be in their situation etc. we have NADA, just a ship flying away. TLJ did nothing and gave us nothing to understanding why Rey is Rey, why she ended up dumped on a planet, how she became orphaned. So why do we care why Rey is Rey? Its very hard to just care about a character when they are so hollow. Its easier to care for Ben because he is related to big people, he has had a traumatic past which has been explored, we understand his motivations. We care. With Rey it doesn't even explore her trauma as a kid. Not once.

I don't see much problem in people asking "who are you, where are you from and who do you love?" , those are the things that make a character human and three dimensional. The audience have not really been given a proper answer here so, of course they care about these things

People connect to characters because of how their back story has shaped them to make them who they are. Its just the truth. When they are a down trodden underdog sewer rat, its thrilling for an audience to learn that they are not and are royalty.  Star wars fans will certainly care about a character being connected to another great character, more than the actual character themselves would care. That's for sure. That still doesn't mean that an orphan character wouldn't be thrilled to find out who their birth family is finally after what, 20 years of not knowing? She deserves to know who her parents are, who her actual birth family are just like any male character does. It will give rey a sense of place. It will mean something to her and its very important to know where you come from even if you have never known who your family was.
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Post by fuhry on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 4:53 pm

@Gemini Exactly this.

I think you crystallized it for me.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 5:09 pm

How Star Wars: Allegiance concludes.  (As an aside, it's interesting to me how Ben/Kylo is barely in this series; it's Hux that is portrayed as the leader, in some ways, and Ben/Kylo remains the enforcer [as he was with Snoke]...very Bendemption train. haha)

Anyway, the last panels of Star Wars: Allegiance.  Therefore, I wonder if the movie will begin on Mon Calamari, or if the opening crawl will mention the planet. ??

Thoughts? Theories? Very Happy Smile

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors Screen57


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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 5:44 pm

Interesting tweet from Grace Randolph (love/hate her)

"Got some pretty big spoiler pics today for #StarWars #TheRiseOfSkwalker ...

Let’s just say Kylo goes FULL Zuko, as I predicted way back when he first debuted with #TheForceAwakens"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553413484404737

Continues with:

"And I can’t share, they’re TOO spoiler-y - also got some crazy #Frozen2 spoilers"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553691436695552

I wonder if their pics from Disney/LF, and this is a part of the marketing - here are pics, mention them, but don't share them - build the anticipation....and be obvious about Bendemption
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Post by lauvamp on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 7:14 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey

OMG thanks for noticing!!! Shocked

These 50 days left gonna be a TORTURE lol
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 7:18 pm

@lauvamp wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey

OMG thanks for noticing!!! Shocked

These 50 days left gonna be a TORTURE lol
@lauvamp

We can do it! Remember when it was 2 years?? Very Happy Smile Before you know it, you will be in the theatre, waiting for the movie to start! Very Happy Smile
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 7:48 pm

The only reason I question Kylo not being there til' the end fighting Palpatine in favor of Rey doing it alone is the parallels drawn between him and Vader, and the "I will finish what you started" line. Having him not be part of dealing the finishing blow on Palps feels like it doesn't follow what's been established, and like an enormous missed opportunity. Especially when this is called the wrap up of the SKYWALKER story, he's the only remaining Skywalker at that point in the story, and Palps has always been the Skywalkers' villain before Rey suddenly (supposedly) became a Palpatine, too. It isn't about liking Kylo more than Rey or trying to cheat Rey out of her due.

All of this triples if Kylo really bites it in the end. Rey would get to live on to crystallize her legacy, and Kylo won't.

I do think it's weird when I see some folks say Kylo alone should be the one to defeat Palpatine. Rey is still the protagonist and it would have been strange to not give her a bone of her own to pick with Palpatine so she could be the hero in the end and defeat him (even if it feels very tacked on and lazy based on the leaks).
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Post by Gemini on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:08 pm

@ZioRen wrote:The only reason I question Kylo not being there til' the end fighting Palpatine in favor of Rey doing it alone is the parallels drawn between him and Vader, and the "I will finish what you started" line. Having him not be part of dealing the finishing blow on Palps feels like it doesn't follow what's been established, and like an enormous missed opportunity. Especially when this is called the wrap up of the SKYWALKER story, he's the only remaining Skywalker at that point in the story, and Palps has always been the Skywalkers' villain before Rey suddenly (supposedly) became a Palpatine, too. It isn't about liking Kylo more than Rey or trying to cheat Rey out of her due.

All of this triples if Kylo really bites it in the end. Rey would get to live on to crystallize her legacy, and Kylo won't.

I do think it's weird when I see some folks say Kylo alone should be the one to defeat Palpatine. Rey is still the protagonist and it would have been strange to not give her a bone of her own to pick with Palpatine so she could be the hero in the end and defeat him (even if it feels very tacked on and lazy based on the leaks).
@ZioRen

That's just it. Palpatine is not Reys fight...its  like Arya and the NK all over again. If shes a nobody or a palpatine, theres  nothing there to make it be her fight(which again makes me think shes not really a palp). It bothers me to that extent as well. Palpatine destroyed the Skywalkers, kylo should have a part in takng him out, it's his arc. If the real ending is being kept under wraps it could be that they both cross the sabers together, working together after Ben is resurrected.

It makes sense for a kenobi/ kenobi stand in to be the one to make a final blow though because if the astrology and tarot in myth is correct here. Kylo is the christ figure who ressurects  and rey is the water bearer (always water around  her ) only aquarius can destroy the great satan. Palp.
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Post by nickandnora on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 8:14 pm

@ZioRen wrote:The only reason I question Kylo not being there til' the end fighting Palpatine in favor of Rey doing it alone is the parallels drawn between him and Vader, and the "I will finish what you started" line. Having him not be part of dealing the finishing blow on Palps feels like it doesn't follow what's been established, and like an enormous missed opportunity. Especially when this is called the wrap up of the SKYWALKER story, he's the only remaining Skywalker at that point in the story, and Palps has always been the Skywalkers' villain before Rey suddenly (supposedly) became a Palpatine, too. It isn't about liking Kylo more than Rey or trying to cheat Rey out of her due.

All of this triples if Kylo really bites it in the end. Rey would get to live on to crystallize her legacy, and Kylo won't.

I do think it's weird when I see some folks say Kylo alone should be the one to defeat Palpatine. Rey is still the protagonist and it would have been strange to not give her a bone of her own to pick with Palpatine so she could be the hero in the end and defeat him (even if it feels very tacked on and lazy based on the leaks).
@ZioRen

With the theme of hope being so prominent (especially in the sequel trilogy), and some of the framing done in TLJ with Kylo - "Hope lives in the galaxy" as he pops up like a flower into the frame - I'm guessing right now there is something subtle, but significant missing about the moment Rey rises up from the floor and defeats Palps. Indeed, it's the moment when things look the darkest; her powers/lifeforce is being drained, she's devoid of energy, the one person who finally "came back" for her is gone, it really can't get any lower. And yet... something convinces her to stand up, cross her sabers, and deflect that lighting back at him, defeating Palpatine once and for all.

If I had to guess the small bit that is missing based on the leaks we have: she probably hears Ben's voice, and it gives her hope. That makes him involved pretty directly in the process, in an effective yet subtle way. He's not meant to deliver the killing blow, he's meant to be that instrument of hope when all hope seems lost.

(That's just my guess - if I had to guess - going off of what we know right now.)

ETA: Oh, I forgot about the fact that Rey *literally* calls him their last hope in TLJ.


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Post by Riri on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:29 pm

Also Interesting that the Kylo comic drops December 18th, the day before the movie releases. My thinking is that because Charles Soule has stated that this comic will show us how tragic Ben’s turn was, it will bode well for Kylo/Ben’s arc in TROS and add context to his TROS arc. They won’t give us tragedy with tragedy (TROS), surely!

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 9:52 pm

@Riri wrote:Also Interesting that the Kylo comic drops December 18th, the day before the movie releases. My thinking is that because Charles Soule has stated that this comic will show us how tragic Ben’s turn was, it will bode well for Kylo/Ben’s arc in TROS and add context to his TROS arc. They won’t give us tragedy with tragedy (TROS), surely!
@Riri

That is not hopeful to me, and HOPE is the associative word with Star Wars for many. Very Happy Smile
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Post by Saracene on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:18 pm

@Gemini In addition to the muddled backstory, I don’t think it helps much that Rey’s motivations and wants are nebulous to the point where she feels rather passive and aimless. Her Jedi story so far is more about Rey being a pawn of the force, rather than something she pursues because she wants it, and she’s with the Resistance because... she’s a good guy who wants to do the right thing? That’s like the most generic motivation a hero can have. It’s easy to “like” Rey because Daisy is magical in the role and Rey is very likeable as a personality, but for me that’s not enough to be really interested in her story on her own.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 10:47 pm

@Saracene

Her personal mission is to find her “family” or belonging and it seems like that’s going to be with Ben and Leia (?) since she’s still feels adrift even among her Resistance peers... That may not be enough character substance for some, but that’s how I understand it 😅 Otherwise, I guess she just wants to defeat “The Man,” AKA The First Order.

I’d like to see Reylo defeat Palpatine together.
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Post by Gemini on Wed 30 Oct 2019, 11:44 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Her personal mission is to find her “family” or belonging and it seems like that’s going to be with Ben and Leia (?) since she’s still feels adrift even among her Resistance peers... That may not be enough character substance for some, but that’s how I understand it 😅 Otherwise, I guess she just wants to defeat “The Man,” AKA The First Order.

I’d like to see Reylo defeat Palpatine together.
@Cowgirlsamurai

See. I think we all clash a lot, you know the  Rey Kenobi folks clash with the Rey Randoms and what is important. However, in essence, we actually do believe the same thing I think. Her belonging is with the Skywalkers. I think Rey Kenobi folks have always felt that who might be is actually complements that unspoken belonging with the Slywalers and it explains the deep unspoken bonds she has with the Skywalkers, each a different bond.

I get why this still seems hollow, because it has not been woven in properly to her story in terms of her journey. She just is leias hope without explanation. She just is Luke's student without explaining why. She just has a bond with kylo....without explanation..it just is

Rey Kenobi would answer all this but it's a cheap thrill to do it right at the end, right?

This is why antis, reywalkers and solos also,hate the idea of Rey Kenobi because it complements kylo redemption and Reylo.


@Saracene

I actually agree 100% with that. She is guided by instinct...but what instinct and why? Rather than a proper motivation she just does as the force wills. She is not following a fresh story, she gets hand me downs from everybody. She is not her own person.

I will be deeply disappointed if she is literally just given everything by the former jedi and  takes up  a jedi mantle. It's so hollow. It means rey is just a vessel and I hate the female as vessel when it's used in "positive ways" if they did this to a Male character...oh boy you would not get a happy, satisfied audience.
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Post by Saracene on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 12:06 am

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@Saracene

Her personal mission is to find her “family” or belonging and it seems like that’s going to be with Ben and Leia (?) since she’s still feels adrift even among her Resistance peers... That may not be enough character substance for some, but that’s how I understand it 😅 Otherwise, I guess she just wants to defeat “The Man,” AKA The First Order.

I’d like to see Reylo defeat Palpatine together.
@Cowgirlsamurai

I agree that finding family or belonging is what Rey desires more than anything else, but I wouldn't call it a personal mission since it's not really something she actively pursues as such. It's a sort of thing that usually just happens to the characters in the course of the story as they come across other characters they bond with, rather than something that implies an obvious action plan.

I also think that her relationship with Leia is pretty forced to be honest, beginning with that contrived hug in TFA which didn't really make sense IMO.
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Post by AcrosstheStars on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 12:36 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting tweet from Grace Randolph (love/hate her)

"Got some pretty big spoiler pics today for #StarWars #TheRiseOfSkwalker ...

Let’s just say Kylo goes FULL Zuko, as I predicted way back when he first debuted with #TheForceAwakens"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553413484404737

Continues with:

"And I can’t share, they’re TOO spoiler-y - also got some crazy #Frozen2 spoilers"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553691436695552

I wonder if their pics from Disney/LF, and this is a part of the marketing - here are pics, mention them, but don't share them - build the anticipation....and be obvious about Bendemption
@SW_Heroine_Journey

Is she someone Disney would give info/pictures to? I’ve never heard of her. She could be referring to the leaked pictures if not.

Not sure what she means about just getting Frozen 2 spoilers. Those have been out there from Disney directly for about a month, although I’ve made a point to avoid them. Unlike with Star Wars, the animation division doesn’t care if story books detailing the whole film are released well in advance of the premiere. So Frozen 2’s plot details, like Toy Story 4 and others, are already known in full to anyone wanting to know what happens.
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 12:52 am

I've got hope for Rey's story this time out, there's plenty they've indicated about how she's isolated, struggling with her burden of taking on the Jedi legacy, who even knows what dark Rey is. She seemed so angsty in the trailer, the only part where she looked happy is in the last shot. Def not the chipper, perky, unconflicted Jedi with no complicated feelings who never struggles to be the beacon of hope and light some thought she would be. No one knows who she is, but Kylo does. Smile Getting some serious HG vibes, like how Katniss ended up becoming this Mockingjay symbol of their own rebellion, but not of her own free will.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 1:43 am

@Saracene

I would say she actively pursues it by going to Luke (Kylo calls her out on looking for parental figures in both his dad and his uncle) and in going to the dark side cave under Ahch-To for answers. When that’s a dead end she rushes off to Kylo thinking he gets her at least, but they’re not on the same page. You’d think she’s happy cuddling up to the Resistance at the end, but we have her in the new trailer saying that no one really knows her, so she’s STILL searching for her people/person (the one that Max tells her in TFA is ahead rather than behind her.) So the basic pieces of Rey are 1.) carry on some kind of order of Force users, 2.) defeat the First Order, and 3.) find her place with someone on a personal level. I dunno. It’s enough of a character for me, but it’s true she’s not as heavy as Kylo with his tragic Solo/Skywalker backstory.
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Post by rey09 on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 1:48 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting tweet from Grace Randolph (love/hate her)

"Got some pretty big spoiler pics today for #StarWars #TheRiseOfSkwalker ...

Let’s just say Kylo goes FULL Zuko, as I predicted way back when he first debuted with #TheForceAwakens"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553413484404737

Continues with:

"And I can’t share, they’re TOO spoiler-y - also got some crazy #Frozen2 spoilers"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553691436695552

I wonder if their pics from Disney/LF, and this is a part of the marketing - here are pics, mention them, but don't share them - build the anticipation....and be obvious about Bendemption
@SW_Heroine_Journey

YESSS MY DREAM ZUKO LIKE REDEMPTION FOR KYLO!!

Also @orionstars I get your concerns. My thinking in that case is for emilia, she had no idea how dany's story would end and unfortunately now we know she wasn't guided by someone truly invested in the story. Now idk obviously but I assume Adam must have been told the general arc and goal of Kylo's story. He doesn't do blockbusters so they really had to sell the story to him, so I'm thinking he signed on because he found the story fulfilling, but that's just my speculation.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 2:01 am

@AcrosstheStars wrote:
@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Interesting tweet from Grace Randolph (love/hate her)

"Got some pretty big spoiler pics today for #StarWars #TheRiseOfSkwalker ...

Let’s just say Kylo goes FULL Zuko, as I predicted way back when he first debuted with #TheForceAwakens"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553413484404737

Continues with:

"And I can’t share, they’re TOO spoiler-y - also got some crazy #Frozen2 spoilers"

https://twitter.com/GraceRandolph/status/1189553691436695552

I wonder if their pics from Disney/LF, and this is a part of the marketing - here are pics, mention them, but don't share them - build the anticipation....and be obvious about Bendemption
@SW_Heroine_Journey

Is she someone Disney would give info/pictures to? I’ve never heard of her. She could be referring to the leaked pictures if not.

Not sure what she means about just getting Frozen 2 spoilers. Those have been out there from Disney directly for about a month, although I’ve made a point to avoid them. Unlike with Star Wars, the animation division doesn’t care if story books detailing the whole film are released well in advance of the premiere. So Frozen 2’s plot details, like Toy Story 4 and others, are already known in full to anyone wanting to know what happens.
@AcrosstheStars

DM me the crazy Frozen 2 spoilers! Very Happy

Basically, because this is a Reylo/TRoS thread so I don't want to get too off topic discussing Frozen 2 and Grace Randolph too much (I just included Frozen 2 because it was part of the sentence where she mentioned TRoS images), Grace Randolph is controversial, yet I do think she has connections (plus she is Rotten Tomatoes certified and in the Broadcast Film Critics Association.) If her tweet is delayed though, I don't know.

The focus for me (versus discussing Frozen 2 and Grace Randolph) is that even people yawn about Bendemption are starting to see it, and if someone who treasures connections (including reviewing/marketing) mentioned that - I do wonder if something is officially happening behind the scenes. So, all of this is kick butt awesome for Bendemption! Very Happy Smile
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Post by special_cases on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 2:18 am

Did you guys saw last tweet from John? Oh my, he totally knows that fandom discusses Kylo falling into a pit.

I’m sorry guys but Anakin slapping all of us in a pit of lava. Including Kylo 😂😂😂
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Post by Saracene on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 3:14 am

@Cowgirlsamurai

There might have been an element of Rey looking for a parental figure in Luke, but I feel like there are too many other things in the mix for it to be a clear-cut motivation. I.e., she also goes to Luke because she doesn't know what to do with her new force powers and wants a teacher, and also because the Resistance sent her to get Luke back and she wants to help the Resistance. It's like, if you've got too many different motivations for a character happening at once it can be just all too blurry.

Rey's arc in the last movie looks more promising, though I'm still sceptical on how much risk they'll actually be willing to take with her.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 3:29 am

Apologies if this was already discussed...

@spacebaby45678 @AhsokaTano I thought both of you would be intrigued about this because of the word ascension

Apparently, the French title for TROS is L'ascension de Skywalker (English translation The ascent of Skywalker, based on quick research, a direct translation of TRoS would be L'augmentation de Skywalker - anyone, please correct me if I am wrong, so I am !! of the ascension use, instead. However, if grammatical normal in French, please disregard.)

Seems to be a major trend, within Star Wars, with Twitter, which is how I found out about it. Smile Very Happy
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Atenais on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 4:02 am

@Saracene wrote:@Cowgirlsamurai

There might have been an element of Rey looking for a parental figure in Luke, but I feel like there are too many other things in the mix for it to be a clear-cut motivation. I.e., she also goes to Luke because she doesn't know what to do with her new force powers and wants a teacher, and also because the Resistance sent her to get Luke back and she wants to help the Resistance. It's like, if you've got too many different motivations for a character happening at once it can be just all too blurry.

Rey's arc in the last movie looks more promising, though I'm still sceptical on how much risk they'll actually be willing to take with her.
@Saracene

I am with you in this. I always liked Rey because, as you said, she is very likeable. But I believe the reason why I'm not that invested in her arc is because her story is too bland, IMO. And, yes, she looks more like a pawn of the Force. She left Jakku because it was necessary, in the beginning, she fought against this new journey, she wanted to go back to the planet, she bonded really faster with everybody and she went to Luke because the Resistance asked her to.

She was really independent in her choices for two times: when she went into the cave and when she sent herself to Kylo. After watching TLJ I thought she was a nobody, but since they started to talk about her parents again, I really want to know more about her. I don't think is vital, but it's a mystery box they should reveal.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Thu 31 Oct 2019, 4:43 am

@Atenais

She doesn’t go to Luke just because the Resistance sent her though.

“Whomever you are waiting for on Jakku, they're never coming back. But, there's someone who still could."
"Luke"
“The belonging you seek is not behind you, it is ahead.”

This gives Rey hope that Luke is the person who will take her in. He will care about her even if it’s just because she’s Force sensitive and asking for his help. Then she becomes disillusioned after his cold welcome. When he asks why SHE’S here she says with no emotion in her voice and without meeting his eyes, “The Resistance sent me.” Because she came with personal expectations of Luke.

She could’ve gone back to Jakku after Starkiller base, but she knows her family’s gone, so she may as well seek her belonging elsewhere as Maz suggested.

Yes, she has been swept up in this story, but I don’t feel like she’s a pawn of the Force.
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