Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by nickandnora on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 13:35

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
@Saracene wrote:Even if Ben lives, I’m going to find Rey Skywalker hard to swallow and it will sour the movie for me big time, because above everything else I hate it when the story feels forced and contrived. Apart from the transparent commercial calculation of keeping a lucrative name alive, it smacks of a clumsy last-ditch effort to justify Rey’s central role in what they’ve now decided is the conclusion of the Skywalker saga. “Look, Rey is a Skywalker after all, she says so, so it must be true!” Unfortunately, as others pointed out, it sounds 100% like something JJ would do, because rushing to an outcome without any real effort to earn it or build up to it is one of his major failings as a storyteller.

Honestly, in retrospect I might be wishing that the whole story was different and they just made Rey Luke’s or Leia and Han’s daughter to start with (while Kylo was an unrelated dark sider and the whole thing was basically like the Lion King sequel lol). Then at least the movies wouldn’t have to reconcile trying to continue a family saga and telling the story of an unrelated protagonist.
@Saracene

This isn't a response directly to your post, more of a continued response to the idea of "Rey Skywalker."

I can't remember exactly when it occurred to me, but I do think some people (not just here) *might* be missing something about authorial intent, especially if George Lucas was at all involved in this from the start.

George Lucas has three adopted children.

I can't say for SURE that any of the themes, messages, and character arcs of the ST have anything to do with this fact... but, I mean, think about it, think about the story so far, think about what the leaks are saying, and then decide if there isn't a deeply personal (and rather touching) message perhaps being portrayed in this story here connected to that.

Just some food for thought.
@nickandnora
We do know he was at least contacted for input on the ending just like Rian.

Yeah, I totally think this is part of it. I've thought it was possible Rey would take Skywalker for a long, long time. There are old posts on this very forum where I've gone into detail about why I considered it a potential outcome.

On the Reylo front Rey and Ben are switching places in a sweet and satisfying way. Each has always had what the other needs. Ben was born into love and prestige but it left him broken, Rey was born into nothing (which remains true regardless of any potential link to Palpatine for dramatic contrast in the finale). They're doing a 180 from where they started, and I really love it, personally.

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@FrolickingFizzgig

Me too, and in terms of romantic Reylo it bodes really well when you think about the works of literature (that Reylo already alludes to) where this inversion occurs at the end. Think of Rochester and Jane, or even better, Margaret and Mr. Thornton from North and South. I have images of Margaret coming back from visiting the mill, which Thornton has lost, and Thornton coming back from the place where Margaret was raised, and then two of them meeting in the middle at the train station (in the adaptation anyway) but with her in the position of power to relieve his "burden." And he's just rejuvenated already anyway.

The pieces and allusions to make it absolutely great are all there.

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Post by special_cases on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 13:48

I agree that Rey Skywalker/Ben Solo angle can work as trading places in legacies, with proper build up (by Leia or Luke, for example), but only if Ben lives. Without building up to it in the movie, it will sound very forced. I don't think this trilogy can survive another heavy meta moment like Rey's line "They were nobodies". Rey taking the name without any previos foreshadowing in the film is the moment that really will break the fourth wall. In most clumsy way.
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Post by Teo oswald on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:03

It’s hard to talk about Rey’s motivations in Episode IX without mentioning her true opposite in the trilogy: Kylo Ren, the reluctant and impetuous villain played by Adam Driver.

“I love working with Adam,”says Daisy.“He is a phenomenal actor and is always so immersed in the character that it is not difficult to act with him. In that torture scene [ in Episode VII ], everything was very complex. We were repeating takes for a long time and I remember thinking, ‘How will I get to that same point with each new attempt?’ And Adam was so into the scene and gave me so much time … I don’t know if anyone else would have done that. ”
As revealed in the D23 teaser, as well as the following trailer released in October, Rey and Kylo Ren must at least have one more rabid clash of lightsabers in Episode IX. Even in scenes of pure choreographed action, the chemistry between Daisy and Adam remains firm - and mutual respect as well. “We were filming a big fight scene and we were like, 'Are you ok? Everything is alright? Is the distance good? ”There has always been a concern for each other’s safety and well-being,” she says
Which did not prevent things from going out of control at more intense times. “I must have hit Adam a few times,” she says.
“Once he hit my fingers, but we finished the scene anyway. And when we are done, my God [makes expression of pain]. I even asked for a minute. I thought I had broken my fingers. ”
— Daisy on working with Adam Driver in The Rise of Skywalker
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:07

@nickandnora
Oh, yes. There are so, so, so many things that bode well for romantic Reylo if you read between the lines. Rey is struggling with the weight of the world, Leia's failing health the unsaid truth that she must be the one to face Kylo Ren, she's feeling lost and alone and the emotions about her family she has kept buried for 20 years are all going to bubble to the surface - and she's going to take it out on Ben. She's telling herself nobody knows her despite being fully aware that there is someone to feels the way she does, and Ben is going to confront her on this the way Rey has confronted him in the past about how much he lies to himself.

We have what sounds like romantic tropes galore (a meeting in a colourful festival, Rey vanishing and leaving a piece of clothing/jewelry in his hand), Rey sneaking into his chambers and smashing the symbol of what she hates in him. Rey's emotions burst forth when she stabs Kylo as she's losing herself to the dark side. This is followed-up by a healing sequence sounds like a straight-up subverted fairy tale kiss of life. This is enough for her to abandon the Resistance and her duty, for she feels not only guilty, but is convinced that she is not worthy of forgiveness. Luke comforts her and tells her all about how Leia gave up everything to save the life of her son, and then Rey goes to face Palpatine in search of redemption for who she is and where she comes from. Palpatine goads her about how nobody has ever loved her and says she has always been alone, and lo and beyond, despite everything that has happened, Ben Solo is there for her just as she was there for him.

And that's just the story we do have. Rey's arc and motivations are a bit clearer than Ben's at the moment. I believe his actions are being extremely misunderstood by sources because TROS seems to be following this basic structure for Rey and Ben's arcs:

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This time, however, it's darkness rising in Rey and light rising in Ben to meet it.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:19

@special_cases wrote:I agree that Rey Skywalker/Ben Solo angle can work as trading places in legacies, with proper build up (by Leia or Luke, for example), but only if Ben lives. Without building up to it in the movie, it will sound very forced. I don't think this trilogy can survive another heavy meta moment like Rey's line "They were nobodies". Rey taking the name without any previos foreshadowing in the film is the moment that really will break the fourth wall. In most clumsy way.
@special_cases

See, my problem is I don't think proper buildup is possible at this point. It's too late in my eyes. It's not that I don't GET how this could resonate with found family/adoption versus blood family, but it doesn't follow particularly in regards to the Skywalker name. It just...doesn't. Not to me. Rey and Luke's relationship would have had to be much, much more meaningful and even Force ghost shenanigans in the final movie aren't going to cut it. It's meaningful for Kylo to let go of this legacy. It follows his arc throughout the trilogy. But to me, Rey picking it up won't have the emotional punch it needs to. Add in Palpatine shenanigans and it gets even more complicated.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:36

@nickandnora See, to me there's a big huge difference between saying that a certain outcome makes sense in terms of narrative themes etc., and it actually feeling earned onscreen. For instance, Kylo's redemption made complete narrative sense to me from day one, but if TRoS drops the ball and doesn't convincingly show how Kylo would be motivated to make a change, then the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards. It also would have been meaningless if the movies didn't plant the seeds for his upcoming redemption along the way.

So in regards to Rey Skywalker, I don't feel like Rey and Luke's relationship got the build-up required to make her taking his name make sense or the theme of adopted children ring true. Not anywhere near close. They had a cold and impersonal relationship in TLJ and Luke didn't even teach her anything much in their two lessons. He only agreed to the lessons to make a case for why the Jedi had to end, not to actually be Rey's teacher. Now he's dead and while there will probably be some important interactions between ghost!Luke and Rey in TRoS, the moment for building a meaningful relationship has IMO sailed.

I've heard an argument that Rey taking on Skywalker name means that she chooses to honour the entire family and not just Luke, but c'mon. He's the only Skywalker in the ST and if the leaks are true, Rey's story ends in a specific place that's only of personal importance to Luke and no one else in the family. But even so, Rey's relationship with Leia is forced af in the trilogy and no amount of onscreen hugs is going to make it feel earned.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:37

@ZioRen Yeah, I get what you're saying. Concept/idea is one thing, and the proper execution is another. There is a lot of stuff in this trilogy that was built on subtext or meta level and unfortunately Rey's arc is one of this things. And even if there is building up, it's still not an adoption angle - it's choosing a "worthy" title for yourself. It's different things. Adoption even on metaphorical level requires meaningful emotional support, guidance, protection, very close personal connection. If there is someone who can adopt Rey in this trilogy, it's Ben, lol. Well, he can give her permission to get this name earlier in the movie 😂 That will be funny.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:40

@Saracene wrote:@nickandnora See, to me there's a big huge difference between saying that a certain outcome makes sense in terms of narrative themes etc., and it actually feeling earned onscreen. For instance, Kylo's redemption made complete narrative sense to me from day one, but if TRoS drops the ball and doesn't convincingly show how Kylo would be motivated to make a change, then the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards. It also would have been meaningless if the movies didn't plant the seeds for his upcoming redemption along the way.

So in regards to Rey Skywalker, I don't feel like Rey and Luke's relationship got the build-up required to make her taking his name make sense or the theme of adopted children ring true. Not anywhere near close. They had a cold and impersonal relationship in TLJ and Luke didn't even teach her anything much in their two lessons. He only agreed to the lessons to make a case for why the Jedi had to end, not to actually be Rey's teacher. Now he's dead and while there will probably be some important interactions between ghost!Luke and Rey in TRoS, the moment for building a meaningful relationship has IMO sailed.

I've heard an argument that Rey taking on Skywalker name means that she chooses to honour the entire family and not just Luke, but c'mon. He's the only Skywalker in the ST and if the leaks are true, Rey's story ends in a specific place that's only of personal importance to Luke and no one else in the family. But even so, Rey's relationship with Leia is forced af in the trilogy and no amount of onscreen hugs is going to make it feel earned.
@Saracene

Oof, there's the rub. The emotional impact comes from Leia herself, not from her particular relationship with Rey which they're trying to push as more meaningful than earned (in my opinion, of course, maybe someone really is very satisfied and emotional about it). Starting off TROS essentially telling us they got closer when we weren't able to see doesn't help and doesn't fix the problem. Same reason the trio stuff is going to fall flat if they try to introduce a friendship between Rey and Poe.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 14:54

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@nickandnora
Oh, yes. There are so, so, so many things that bode well for romantic Reylo if you read between the lines. Rey is struggling with the weight of the world, Leia's failing health the unsaid truth that she must be the one to face Kylo Ren, she's feeling lost and alone and the emotions about her family she has kept buried for 20 years are all going to bubble to the surface - and she's going to take it out on Ben. She's telling herself nobody knows her despite being fully aware that there is someone to feels the way she does, and Ben is going to confront her on this the way Rey has confronted him in the past about how much he lies to himself.

We have what sounds like romantic tropes galore (a meeting in a colourful festival, Rey vanishing and leaving a piece of clothing/jewelry in his hand), Rey sneaking into his chambers and smashing the symbol of what she hates in him. Rey's emotions burst forth when she stabs Kylo as she's losing herself to the dark side. This is followed-up by a healing sequence sounds like a straight-up subverted fairy tale kiss of life. This is enough for her to abandon the Resistance and her duty, for she feels not only guilty, but is convinced that she is not worthy of forgiveness. Luke comforts her and tells her all about how Leia gave up everything to save the life of her son, and then Rey goes to face Palpatine in search of redemption for who she is and where she comes from. Palpatine goads her about how nobody has ever loved her and says she has always been alone, and lo and beyond, despite everything that has happened, Ben Solo is there for her just as she was there for him.

And that's just the story we do have. Rey's arc and motivations are a bit clearer than Ben's at the moment. I believe his actions are being extremely misunderstood by sources because TROS seems to be following this basic structure for Rey and Ben's arcs:

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Tumblr_p6z0a06oCw1x20wxqo2_540

This time, however, it's darkness rising in Rey and light rising in Ben to meet it.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Yep, I agree with a lot of this. Which is why the "never to be seen again" is a real head-scratcher. When you look beyond the way information was fed to us, all of this sounds very romance novel. I still can't get over Kylo apparently getting close enough to take Rey's necklace. Like, how did the leaker not read that as somewhat sultry? From how it sounds, Kylo bridges the distance between them and Rey LETS him, no backing off. Even if it happens in an "I'm angry and standing my ground" sort of way, there's no way that isn't going to come off as sexual tension considering the history of these two characters.

The Rey stabbing Kylo scene, with proper context, and the fallout also scream dark romance. The only thing about this part that confuses me is "wasting" the "brought back to life" twist there rather than using it at the end when it's the most critical. I think it worries people because this isn't the kind of thing that usually happens to a character twice, so if it happens here, I'm not sure it's in the cards for an injured or pit-thrown Ben in the climax.

I also think the leak about Ben throwing away his lightsaber and diving into the snake pit to pull Rey from the grasp of the Dark Side is terribly romantic. Like wow. Even if the details aren't quite what they say (I feel like I've seen fluctuation on whether or not Ben throws away his weapon, whether he defeats the KoR all on his own, whether or not he gets all beat up in the process) the basic feel seems the same. Ben has an epiphany, and his first action as a new man is to go and support/protect Rey at all costs, in more ways than one. Ugh, swoon. Love that flip in the TLJ dynamic. I can see Rey looking upon him in that moment and immediately knowing what it means; that Ben has finally made the right choice, for himself and the galaxy, and she doesn't have to keep him at a distance anymore. That someone is there for her no matter what, in spite of all the struggle.

I also think a lot of this bodes well for finally giving Rey some complexity. It sounds harsh as hell, but if she really ends up stabbing Kylo WHILE HE'S IN SHOCK OVER SENSING LEIA'S DEATH, that is some serious dark sider-y that I can see her being horrified over. Though the leaks put words in Rey's mouth in the aftermath, something about not falling to the dark side like Kylo, that make her sound cocky, I wonder if that dialogue is actually in there. Or maybe the context is totally different. Maybe she says it shakily, disbelieving of what she's done, trying to convince herself more than anyone. And then she hightails it, almost about to give up under the heavy weight of her actions. Sounds juicy!

That "nobody knows me" "But I do" in the trailer is PEAK Reylo. If that's what they consider indicative of the crux of their relationship in TROS, that's something to celebrate. The only thing throwing this off is the ending leaks we DO have. All I can do is hope they don't build up something interesting only to kill it right at the finish line.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 15:13

@ZioRen
I do think the healing happens exactly where it says because I also believe Ben Force Bonds his way to Exogol in the climax. Throughout the story Ben has been the one experiencing and taking note of the teleportation influenced by his connection with Rey. The first Force Bond scene has him realizing that they can now interact physically and likely harm each other; the others involve them interacting, fighting and teleporting Vader's mask from Kylo's chambers to Kijimi. Kylo has no other method of getting off the death star on Kef Bir. Rey took his ship, the Resistance is gone, Lando has the Falcon, he has abandoned his title, his lightsaber and the First Order and only wants to support Rey. This is Ben's narrative climax. He's an urgent but passive player, gets his moment to shine against the Knights and is then taken out in a twist that allows Rey to face her big bad alone and channel the Jedi of the past like she was trying to do at the beginning of the film.

I don't believe the source has any way to understand what is happening here because it's a twist. When Ben falls into the mist he teleports back to the death star. The whole point of fighting his way to Rey (dramatically speaking) is to encourage the audience to want him back. It's not a death scene, it's an emotional climax that is set up over the film by many other death fakeouts.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 15:20

Rey Palpatine taking the Skywalker name. I for one will not be pressured into accepting it as fact when “Ben dead for ever” is refuted in terms of its inevitability all across the fandom. It cant be either/or in my books. No picking and choosing from me.  I think both are highly unlikely end results and JJ has successfully concealed the upwards turn from the public, thus far. We even seem to have a fake ending. Which he has done before as well. JJ  has a track record of creating fake scenes and endings and showing them to journalists in order to spread fake leaks. I’m in firm hope that he has kept the true ending a secret, just like he has before.

I think JJ has hidden Rey’s true identity and he has also hidden Kylos resurrection because these will be the two most emotional moments in the entire saga and will tie it together perfectly. The two particular characters coming together this time in a positive way will be undoing of Palpatine.  

I think Rey Palpatine is a lie.

Quite simply, because Palpatine is known a liar. Lies and deceit is what his character is built on. He deceives people to meet his ends. He harms the protagonist by taking their insecurity and then lies about it in the worst possible way in order to turn that person dark. He succeeded with Anakin because no one was there to tell Anakin the truth about his children being alive and that it wasn’t actually him who killed Padme out of anger.

This is not the case for Rey. We know for a fact that Kylo returns to help Rey, whats more, due to leaked images, we now know for a fact that he returns with a second light saber. By bringing this saber, I think he will bring with him the truth about Rey. I’ve said it lots of times but this appears to be “the key” to the entire saga that LF have spoken about. The Key to the Saga that apparently Kylo holds.  That saber, IMO is it and the knowledge he brings with it is the Key. It will Save Rey from Palpatines lie and in turn, save her from the dark side. I’ve always said, Kylo holds the key to who Rey is and he will only bring it when he is finally ready to turn his back on the dark side.

Originally Rey Random with no place suited his goals, now Rey Palpatine does until he just decides….f**** the dark side. This is going to be one of the most epic moments in the entire saga when he brings this Key to Rey. Im banking on it because it ties in with him shedding the dark side for good, once and for all.

Rey Nobody was a lie, it was always a lie. It was Rey’s character lie and this lie was established in the very first ever teaser trailer for TFA.

Each character tells you their character lie which they fully believe to be truth, which they learn/ they will eventually learn is not.

“I will finish what you (Vader) started” No he will not
“I have nothing to fight for” yes he does
“I’m no one” No she is not.

The perceived character lie is something which the character believes which is established in the ordinary world of the story. The lie often gets in the way of the character achieving their goal. The antagonist will naturally use the lie against them because it stops the protagonist from reaching their true goal. Kylo has been doing this since TFA.

For Rey, she genuinely believes that she is nobody of importance and her parents were nobodies and in TFA she believes they are coming back. That never meant that it was the actual truth. It was just her truth, it was a lie that she believed to be 100% truth and it is 100% detrimental to her destiny and goal of finding her place.

This lie has now evolved into her believing she has no true place at all and is nothing and as long as Kylo is the antagonist he will forever be the threshold guardian, throwing obstacles at Rey so that she cannot find her goal AKA her place in the story. The other antagonist, Palpatine, will also throw obstacles at her to stop her finding her true goal, her true place.

How do we know Rey nobody is a lie? Because it causes the three main products of the lie when used against her. Rey shows Fear, an inability to forgive, shame and anger. She shows these  classic products of the lie each time Kylo calls her nothing in TFA and TLJ. “You? a scavenger”, “you’re nothing”. She even shows this again on the DS where kylo calls her nothing in TROS (Leaks). These three emotions come to the forefront, every time. Thats again, how we know this is not the truth.

Kylo shows the exact same emotions when his character lie is thrown in his face. Rey uses his desire to be Vader against him, Snoke uses it aganst him too. Each time Kylo shows: Fear, shame, anger, and an inability to forgive. He will continue to do so until he learns the truth and reaches his goal, Redemption.


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Post by ZioRen on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 15:21

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@ZioRen
I do think the healing happens exactly where it says because I also believe Ben Force Bonds his way to Exogol in the climax. Throughout the story Ben has been the one experiencing and taking note of the teleportation influenced by his connection with Rey. The first Force Bond scene has him realizing that they can now interact physically and likely harm each other; the others involve them interacting, fighting and teleporting Vader's mask from Kylo's chambers to Kijimi. Kylo has no other method of getting off the death star on Kef Bir. Rey took his ship, the Resistance is gone, Lando has the Falcon, he has abandoned his title, his lightsaber and the First Order and only wants to support Rey. This is Ben's narrative climax. He's an urgent but passive player, gets his moment to shine against the Knights and is then taken out in a twist that allows Rey to face her big bad alone and channel the Jedi of the past like she was trying to do at the beginning of the film.

I don't believe the source has any way to understand what is happening here because it's a twist. When Ben falls into the mist he teleports back to the death star. The whole point of fighting his way to Rey (dramatically speaking) is to encourage the audience to want him back. It's not a death scene, it's an emotional climax that is set up over the film by many other death fakeouts.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Heh, I hope this is true. This also is a nice way to build upon Luke's climactic actions in TLJ. Both Luke and Ben are able to pull this off in a moment of clarity about who they are and what they want to stand for. Both have the same twist that they aren't really "there," but this time there's no fatality. Because Ben and Rey are super awesome like that and have this amazing bond that transcends what even someone as powerful as Palpatine will ever be able to understand.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 15:33

@ZioRen wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@ZioRen
I do think the healing happens exactly where it says because I also believe Ben Force Bonds his way to Exogol in the climax. Throughout the story Ben has been the one experiencing and taking note of the teleportation influenced by his connection with Rey. The first Force Bond scene has him realizing that they can now interact physically and likely harm each other; the others involve them interacting, fighting and teleporting Vader's mask from Kylo's chambers to Kijimi. Kylo has no other method of getting off the death star on Kef Bir. Rey took his ship, the Resistance is gone, Lando has the Falcon, he has abandoned his title, his lightsaber and the First Order and only wants to support Rey. This is Ben's narrative climax. He's an urgent but passive player, gets his moment to shine against the Knights and is then taken out in a twist that allows Rey to face her big bad alone and channel the Jedi of the past like she was trying to do at the beginning of the film.

I don't believe the source has any way to understand what is happening here because it's a twist. When Ben falls into the mist he teleports back to the death star. The whole point of fighting his way to Rey (dramatically speaking) is to encourage the audience to want him back. It's not a death scene, it's an emotional climax that is set up over the film by many other death fakeouts.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Heh, I hope this is true. This also is a nice way to build upon Luke's climactic actions in TLJ. Both Luke and Ben are able to pull this off in a moment of clarity about who they are and what they want to stand for. Both have the same twist that they aren't really "there," but this time there's no fatality. Because Ben and Rey are super awesome like that and have this amazing bond that transcends what even someone as powerful as Palpatine will ever be able to understand.
@ZioRen
I have to be real - I find "never to be seen again" really hilarious in its absurdity. Palpatine "died" exactly the same way and we're expected to believe Ben Solo just gets yeeted, bye bye, who cares what happened to him. Maybe I should take it more seriously, but I'm so incredibly unconcerned that the nail biting everywhere else has been surprising to me. Everything is going to be fine and I think TROS will be very good and uplifting in just about every way.
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:01

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@ZioRen
I do think the healing happens exactly where it says because I also believe Ben Force Bonds his way to Exogol in the climax. Throughout the story Ben has been the one experiencing and taking note of the teleportation influenced by his connection with Rey. The first Force Bond scene has him realizing that they can now interact physically and likely harm each other; the others involve them interacting, fighting and teleporting Vader's mask from Kylo's chambers to Kijimi. Kylo has no other method of getting off the death star on Kef Bir. Rey took his ship, the Resistance is gone, Lando has the Falcon, he has abandoned his title, his lightsaber and the First Order and only wants to support Rey. This is Ben's narrative climax. He's an urgent but passive player, gets his moment to shine against the Knights and is then taken out in a twist that allows Rey to face her big bad alone and channel the Jedi of the past like she was trying to do at the beginning of the film.

I don't believe the source has any way to understand what is happening here because it's a twist. When Ben falls into the mist he teleports back to the death star. The whole point of fighting his way to Rey (dramatically speaking) is to encourage the audience to want him back. It's not a death scene, it's an emotional climax that is set up over the film by many other death fakeouts.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Heh, I hope this is true. This also is a nice way to build upon Luke's climactic actions in TLJ. Both Luke and Ben are able to pull this off in a moment of clarity about who they are and what they want to stand for. Both have the same twist that they aren't really "there," but this time there's no fatality. Because Ben and Rey are super awesome like that and have this amazing bond that transcends what even someone as powerful as Palpatine will ever be able to understand.
@ZioRen
I have to be real - I find "never to be seen again" really hilarious in its absurdity. Palpatine "died" exactly the same way and we're expected to believe Ben Solo just gets yeeted, bye bye, who cares what happened to him. Maybe I should take it more seriously, but I'm so incredibly unconcerned that the nail biting everywhere else has been surprising to me. Everything is going to be fine and I think TROS will be very good and uplifting in just about every way.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: JediPaxis is so devoid of understanding context, he doesn't even understand why this is funny. Never forget that, people. It speaks volumes.

For those concerned about Kylo's arc in terms of redemption (like perhaps don't think turning at the end when he does is quite enough), remember that currently the most nebulous thing by far in these leaks is his motivation from the beginning. And I really think that's the key to everything. There is more than one possibility, but if I take into account that he starts by having PTSD dreams about Han and Luke, that he originally visited an Oracle who spells out his love for Rey, and that if you really look at his *actions* objectively in the leaks, he spends most of his time with the seeming goal of keeping Rey away from the Wayfinder and subsequently away from Palpatine, I think we have a motivation that's pretty much opposite of whatever tone-deaf leakers and sources are saying it is.

I believe that Kylo, when he finds Palpatine, accidentally opens Pandora's box and is forced to try to contain the fallout. Most astute people speculate (and I would argue justifiably so) that Palpatine is putting on the old grandfather ruse with Kylo who will sympathize with him and agree to do his bidding because of that ruse, and because of his connections to Rey. And while I can *somewhat* buy the second part, for the first part, I keep coming back to this fact: Kylo has already BEEN through this with Snoke. When he sliced Snoke in half, I believe it was because he was 100% done with his bullshit and understood Snoke's machinations and manipulations. So why on earth does Kylo "fall" for it a second time? We have the theory that he does so because Palps offers Kylo the key to rule with Rey. But that was subsequently removed from the leaks (and personally, I don't think this explanation ever even existed in the first place). And does Kylo have any real reason to believe this would entice her? I'm skeptical. So the loose conclusion I'm drawing is the following: Kylo doesn't fall for it. He offers himself to Palpatine in Rey's stead (self-sacrifice essentially), and spends the rest of the film trying to keep her from a) learning the truth, and b) finding Palpatine.

Look at every leaked encounter. Rey just continually seems to become darker. She uses force-lightening, she brings down a ship in her anger (or something like this), and each time Kylo just doubles down on keeping her from finding that Wayfinder until he intercepts her on the Death Star. WHY? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Kylo believes Rey could be headed down the same path that he went down (complete with the appearance of a manipulative force-user ready to take advantage of her and her bloodline) and he desperately wants to save her from that fate.

I don't know how right or wrong I am, but this is the motivation that makes the largest number of pieces fit together from the leaked plot (if you remove all the editorializing contained in them). It actually means that Kylo's redemption begins a LOT earlier than people would understand from the leaks. Most assume it's the moment on the Death Star, but it's not. It's actually the moment he encounters Palpatine in the first 15 minutes and makes a darkly misguided but chivalrous decision. His mistake is actually trying to spare Rey from having to face fear and darkness (when Luke reminds her that it's the destiny of every Jedi to do this), not trying to entice her to it.

That's my current working thesis anyway. Whether I'm right or wrong, it makes me excited to see this movie in December!


Last edited by nickandnora on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 17:30; edited 2 times in total

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Post by OrionStars on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:04

@vaderito wrote:
@OrionStars wrote:@MaddieDove

Personally, I think the idea of Rey taking the last name is really absurd, unearned and forced. Even fanboys can't accept it. In the context of the story, there isn't any absolute solution that could solve all the problems that will be stirred up by Rey "Skywalker"

@OrionStars

That all stands but TROS clearly builds up to that and what fanboys (including us) think is not LFL concern. They make movies for masses and masses are much easier dazzled by twists (Rey is Emperor's granddaughter! Rey takes Skywalker name!) than minority that are fans. Take Reddit, for example. Reddit was in love with the Oracle and LFL removed it from the movie cause they deemed it confusing to the audience. So fanboys (including us) loving something didn't keep it in the movie, and fanboys (including us) hating something didn't take that out of the movie.

The leak is real. It isn't just footage and stills that prove it. It's the flow of the story. There's an organic flow especially in everything that leads up to Rey Palpatine reveal (aggressive training, hereditary force lightning, Sith dagger killing the parents, Dark Rey vision) and RRS (Leia's saber, Leia's death, Ben's death, Rey using 2 Skywalker sabers, Rey merging 2 Skywalker sabers into an Ultimate Skywalker Saber). It makes sense. Skywalkers are dead but their spirit lives in Rey. Yes, it's bad and cheesy af but it's obviously thought out and it flows. Bad things flow too. It makes narrative sense regardless of narrative being bad.  


Yeah, I agree with you. To an extent, I even heard the same things from those who are just moviegoers/GA, such as the leaks sound "hopeful" because we can have more "Skywalker" after TROS and don't have to stuck with only Rey and resistance randos; the boring characters who have poor merchandise sales will fall into the pit of being forgotten on Disney+, and with Kevin Feige's help, valuable characters like Kylo can come back in flesh and blood one day just like Loki in Multiverse of Madness movie.
About Ben's death, even though I've heard a lot of people mentioning it, I've always been afraid to say it myself that there is a possibility that in order to give Rey Skywalker's ending a strong emotional impact and make her become the last living "Skywalker", JJ would snuff Kylo out, because everyone and their friends know Kylo is far more important than Rey, he's the rightful heir, Rey Skywalker is like a joke if the real Skywalker is still out there. Yes I'm fully aware of it, but I still can't make peace with that idea, I'm sorry I'm not strong enough, I still hold out hope that  Ben could survive somehow.
I guess for Kylo's stan like me, the only good outcome is Adam's career remains unharmed after sequels and he still has some good scenes in TROS, just like what @rawpowah  said. While Ridley the self-adopted-Skywalker can face fanboys' enormous outrage alone for all I care.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:16

@nickandnora
I've also considered this and I think it falls in line with the leaks when you disregard the clearly very off emotional context and character motivations. The original Force Bond description just shows how skewed it all is. It says something about him antagonizing her when that's not at all what's going on. Rey is the one sounding unreasonable ("nobody knows me"! what about your friends, your teachers, the dude in front of you?) and that's a trend within the story that matches Daisy's interviews to a T.

I do feel it could fall somewhere in between as well, with Ben reluctant to kill the man who claims to be Rey's only living relative but also wary of the potential danger he may cause her. The currently fandom-wide assumption that Ben has to be completely in the wrong is, in my opinion, not supported by what we know about the storyline with Rey becoming progressively more reckless and unable to control her emotions and powers. I really don't know and I'm also excited to find out in December, because there's so much that isn't clear or is coming across totally or mostly distorted right now.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:32

@nickandnora @FrolickingFizzgig

I thoroughly enjoy how you two approach the leaks!

Admittedly, it's personal style, yet for me - from other fandoms, I always preferred the angle of - this is what we have, let's have fun with it, and try to tie the leaks into the themes, inspirations, etc of what we know with the story.

Most important of all, keep a sense of humor about them!

I love how you two unpacked them, try to see where the truth is within them, yet remembering that there is bias and hearsey involved with the leaks. I too am excited and positive about December!

Thank you, you two! Very Happy Smile
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Post by Gemini on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:37

I'll also just throw in that nothing in the marketing leading up to this film is designed to make the audience say "Oh yea look, she's a Palpatine, they were trying to tell us all along"  Thats because its, IMO not end game. I honestly feel that "Rey Palpatine" is just a lie Rey is told before she has her own "death and rebirth" moment as a hero. That is why the marketing is doing the following to look back on:

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Screen49
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Starwa12
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Image_12

Kylo the threshold guardian, stopping Rey getting to the Obi Wan's spot (The pillar that Obi Wan disabled the tractor beam on)..literally across several posters now. If you look hard enough. You can see how LF are slowly transforming that “Obi Wan pillar” into a saber sticking out of the ground with elements of Obi Wans saber (From ANH)breaking through. Its becoming more and more pronounced with each new poster they are releasing. It was never a three part poster. That is not what they are trying to make you look at. They literally have Kylo and Rey pointing at it with their own sabers now in the final version.
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 S-l64010


"The force will be with you, always - Obi Wan to a young Skywalker


The force will be with you, always - The Skywalkers to a young......Palpatine.
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Image_13


There’s also the official Skywalker Saga book, this is what Disney feels the Saga embodies as a whole.. Well Hello there, Rey Palpatine..

Palpatine is not even worthy of being a key element apparently. Two very particular sabers seem to keep making it onto their official art work leading up to the movie, as well.
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Incoll12

Oh and lets not forget the blue tipped lillies that are Reys "secret treasure" these blue tipped lillies have only ever been associated with Satine of Mandalore, who wore them in her hair.

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Dd10


Theres tonnes more but my hands hurt so no more typie. Im not falling for Rey Palpatine..not until I see it in front of my eyes. Or with the first premiere spoilers. The leaks are not yet official. What LF is putting out in the marketing about Rey, is official. I’ll stick with what they are putting out.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:53

@nickandnora wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@ZioRen
I do think the healing happens exactly where it says because I also believe Ben Force Bonds his way to Exogol in the climax. Throughout the story Ben has been the one experiencing and taking note of the teleportation influenced by his connection with Rey. The first Force Bond scene has him realizing that they can now interact physically and likely harm each other; the others involve them interacting, fighting and teleporting Vader's mask from Kylo's chambers to Kijimi. Kylo has no other method of getting off the death star on Kef Bir. Rey took his ship, the Resistance is gone, Lando has the Falcon, he has abandoned his title, his lightsaber and the First Order and only wants to support Rey. This is Ben's narrative climax. He's an urgent but passive player, gets his moment to shine against the Knights and is then taken out in a twist that allows Rey to face her big bad alone and channel the Jedi of the past like she was trying to do at the beginning of the film.

I don't believe the source has any way to understand what is happening here because it's a twist. When Ben falls into the mist he teleports back to the death star. The whole point of fighting his way to Rey (dramatically speaking) is to encourage the audience to want him back. It's not a death scene, it's an emotional climax that is set up over the film by many other death fakeouts.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Heh, I hope this is true. This also is a nice way to build upon Luke's climactic actions in TLJ. Both Luke and Ben are able to pull this off in a moment of clarity about who they are and what they want to stand for. Both have the same twist that they aren't really "there," but this time there's no fatality. Because Ben and Rey are super awesome like that and have this amazing bond that transcends what even someone as powerful as Palpatine will ever be able to understand.
@ZioRen
I have to be real - I find "never to be seen again" really hilarious in its absurdity. Palpatine "died" exactly the same way and we're expected to believe Ben Solo just gets yeeted, bye bye, who cares what happened to him. Maybe I should take it more seriously, but I'm so incredibly unconcerned that the nail biting everywhere else has been surprising to me. Everything is going to be fine and I think TROS will be very good and uplifting in just about every way.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I've said it before, but it bears repeating: JediPaxis is so devoid of understanding context, he doesn't even understand why this is funny. Never forget that, people. It speaks volumes.

For those concerned about Kylo's arc in terms of redemption (like perhaps don't think turning at the end when he does is quite enough), remember that currently the most nebulous thing by far in these leaks is his motivation from the beginning. And I really think that's the key to everything. There is more than one possibility, but if I take into account that he starts by having PTSD dreams about Han and Luke, that he originally visited an Oracle who spells out Rey's love for him, and that if you really look at his *actions* objectively in the leaks, he spends most of his time with the seeming goal of keeping Rey away from the Wayfinder and subsequently away from Palpatine, I think we have a motivation that's pretty much opposite of whatever tone-deaf leakers and sources are saying it is.

I believe that Kylo, when he finds Palpatine, accidentally opens Pandora's box and is forced to try to contain the fallout. Most astute people speculate (and I would argue justifiably so) that Palpatine is putting on the old grandfather ruse with Kylo who will sympathize with him and agree to do his bidding because of that ruse, and because of his connections to Rey. And while I can *somewhat* buy the second part, for the first part, I keep coming back to this fact: Kylo has already BEEN through this with Snoke. When he sliced Snoke in half, I believe it was because he was 100% done with his bullshit and understood Snoke's machinations and manipulations. So why on earth does Kylo "fall" for it a second time? We have the theory that he does so because Palps offers Kylo the key to rule with Rey. But that was subsequently removed from the leaks (and personally, I don't think this explanation ever even existed in the first place). And does Kylo have any real reason to believe this would entice her? I'm skeptical. So the loose conclusion I'm drawing is the following: Kylo doesn't fall for it. He offers himself to Palpatine in Rey's stead (self-sacrifice essentially), and spends the rest of the film trying to keep her from a) learning the truth, and b) finding Palpatine.

Look at every leaked encounter. Rey just continually seems to become darker. She uses force-lightening, she brings down a ship in her anger (or something like this), and each time Kylo just doubles down on keeping her from finding that Wayfinder until he intercepts her on the Death Star. WHY? The only thing that makes sense to me is that Kylo believes Rey could be headed down the same path that he went down (complete with the appearance of a manipulative force-user ready to take advantage of her and her bloodline) and he desperately wants to save her from that fate.

I don't know how right or wrong I am, but this is the motivation that makes the largest number of pieces fit together from the leaked plot (if you remove all the editorializing contained in them). It actually means that Kylo's redemption begins a LOT earlier than people would understand from the leaks. Most assume it's the moment on the Death Star, but it's not. It's actually the moment he encounters Palpatine in the first 15 minutes and makes a darkly misguided but chivalrous decision. His mistake is actually trying to spare Rey from having to face fear and darkness (when Luke reminds her that it's the destiny of every Jedi to do this), not trying to entice her to it.

That's my current working thesis anyway. Whether I'm right or wrong, it makes me excited to see this movie in December!
@nickandnora

Fantastic post, and pretty much second this. I’ve had similar thoughts with regards to Kylo’s arc as well. The way it’s laid out in the leaks, there’s a lot that is nebulous and fuzzy about his motivations and just plain doesn’t make any sense. The stuff like the PTSD flashbacks, the Oracle etc. is from his STARTING POINT in the film. So it seems like JJ gets the ball rolling pretty early. Which is why the antagonistic nature painted around his interactions with Rey in the leaks doesn’t really jive well. Kylo not falling for Palpatine’s ruse, but instead playing him would be a logical continuation and build off really well with what happened with Snoke in TLJ too. And from what we know about Rey (in marketing as well as the leaks), it seems like she’s having a major struggle with the dark side. This dovetails well as a parallel arc with the growing light side in Ben (which pretty much means his redemption has to start early). As @FrolickingFizzgig mentioned, it’s playing off the structure in TLJ, but this time round it’s flipped. And if done well, this is going to add sooooo much complexity (not that Rey and Kylo’s dynamic was lacking in complexity before, but this would take it to the next level).

So yeah, when you read between the lines and try to fit the pieces together, it all sounds very, very romantic. Which makes “never to be seen again” sound even more preposterous. The third act has a lot of holes in it anyway, and Kylo has to be part of those missing pieces. If it plays out as you’ve described, you’d think this would up the likelihood of explicit Reylo as well, but idk.


Last edited by Kylo Rey on Mon 11 Nov 2019 - 5:41; edited 2 times in total
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 16:55

While it's certainly true that our good friend Palpatine might be lying, I don't think it matters because Rey is going to choose her family and her belonging in the end. It all seems more narratively potent if Grandpa Palps is telling the truth and was trying to manipulate a familial bond after his downfall at the hands of Vader as a result of his love for Luke. This time it's romantic love that, forgive the expression, f*cks him. It's the end result of the cyclical story of the original corruption - the bond between a husband and wife.

@SW_Heroine_Journey
Hah, it's very important to keep in mind that it's all for fun in the end. I adore speculating, especially about themes and how narratives fit together, so the leaks have actually provided me with a ton of brain crunching. I seems @nickandnora feels the same way. While it's certainly possible JJ could screw he pooch, I see no evidence that he has and only proof that we're going to get a really satisfying conclusion.

I'm waiting on the press tours and interviews. I can't wait to hear what Adam has to say because he's the only one who hasn't talked about TROS.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 17:25

@special_cases wrote:@ZioRen Yeah, I get what you're saying. Concept/idea is one thing, and the proper execution is another. There is a lot of stuff in this trilogy that was built on subtext or meta level and unfortunately Rey's arc is one of this things.
@special_cases

There are a few things in the ST that only really make sense if you look at Rey as some sort of SW fan insert. Like, how does she know that Luke redeemed Vader because he saw the good in him? Is this deeply private act such a broad knowledge across the galaxy that a scavenger from nowhere heard of it?

I do like the idea of Rey struggling with the dark side and I guess it's better late than never, but unlike Kylo's arc I doubt that Rey's story in the ST will feel like one consistent thread, because it feels like her story in every movie is whatever the writer feels is suited for the movie.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 18:23

Yes, not only do we have missing scenes, we have missing characters. Entire missing plotlines, dare we say. All filtered through someone with no sense of humor and a pretty awful sense of the characters, story, themes, tone, and even other fans. Talk about an unreliable narrator. Not necessarily all false, but take it with a grain of salt here.

I'm surprised he hasn't connected the disturbing things Rey is doing with dark!Rey at some point. Where or what is she? I heard a fun theory that she's actually Palpatine, probably crack, but entertaining anyway. I've wondered if that shot of the cloaked figure in the trailer is actually dark!Rey... looking at Rey. Also likely crack, but also still fun.

I remember when most of the discussion was about how Kylo was the only great character, and Rey hadn't gotten nearly the same level of attention. But over the past month or so it's become that JJ actually doesn't care about or understand Kylo, and he only wants to focus on Rey. I've seen this general phenomenon in many fandoms, the constant shifting of the goalposts. Like, I'm not sure what people want at this point, if I'm being real. Not enough of thing B, okay they'll do more thing B. But now that must mean they hate thing A!

People can post negative things of course, but a forum is inherently a social space, and people's comments don't exist in a vacuum, they affect other people and the entire discourse. When it becomes the overwhelming majority of discussion, and not always presented in the form of personal opinions, but more like hard statements, with, intentional or not, the general vibe that people who don't subscribe to most of the more pessimistic predictions are naive or ignorant or don't really understand what's going on, and other lines of thought don't really jibe with the bigger conversation anymore, all on a site that was originally meant to be a safe haven from the endless negativity of mainstream fandom, it can be a little disconcerting. It doesn't need to be all sparkles and unicorns and rainbows, people will have their anxieties (mine are more centered around the inevitable awful backlash of horribly bad takes about Rey and Kylo and their fans and what it says about society, some of which will probably come from major publications and figures, and I don't know when they'll end), but it's honestly been kind of oppressive for the past 2-3 months. This sometimes happens when there's not enough official information or other goodies. At least it's only a day or two until Mandalorian.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 18:43

@californiagirl
Oh yes, the shift between "only Kylo gets attention and Rey isn't flawed enough" to "everybody working on TROS hates Kylo and the Skywalkers and Disney wants to kill off the blood and replace it with their self-insert OC" all over the place has been... A Thing. A real confusing thing.

There is a history across the fandom (all sides of it) of viewing Kylo as more of a protagonist than Rey when that simply was never in the cards. He has always been the deuteragonist in her narrative, but the truth is Rey can be the ultimate heroine of what has always been her story, she can confront her own Big Bad the way Ben confronted his and Ben can have a satisfying conclusion of his arc that compliments and ties in with hers. The writers can respect all the major characters, including Finn, Poe and Rose (and now Jannah and Zorrii). None of these things is or should be mutually exclusive. It's a massive team effort.

It's all just a spiral of discourse, and that's to be expected. We're weeks away from the major press push when everything should start to become clearer. We're also just a little over a month away from the premiere. Soon, very soon. Very Happy
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Post by Atenais on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 19:22

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@californiagirl
Oh yes, the shift between "only Kylo gets attention and Rey isn't flawed enough" to "everybody working on TROS hates Kylo and the Skywalkers and Disney wants to kill off the blood and replace it with their self-insert OC" all over the place has been... A Thing. A real confusing thing.

There is a history across the fandom (all sides of it) of viewing Kylo as more of a protagonist than Rey when that simply was never in the cards. He has always been the deuteragonist in her narrative, but the truth is Rey can be the ultimate heroine of what has always been her story, she can confront her own Big Bad the way Ben confronted his and Ben can have a satisfying conclusion of his arc that compliments and ties in with hers. The writers can respect all the major characters, including Finn, Poe and Rose (and now Jannah and Zorrii). None of these things is or should be mutually exclusive. It's a massive team effort.

It's all just a spiral of discourse, and that's to be expected. We're weeks away from the major press push when everything should start to become clearer. We're also just a little over a month away from the premiere. Soon, very soon. Very Happy
@FrolickingFizzgig

Rey is the protagonist, nobody's questioning this. The big problem is, Kylo is not only an interesting and complex character, but he is the heir of Skywalker Legacy. It's hard not to care about him, when we know he is the son of Han and Leia. I mean, something went awfully wrong if the son of the heroes of our childhood went to the dark side. I like Rey, I'm empathic about her character. But since in this trilogy still has Luke, Leia and Han, of course my first concern will be their son/nephew who went to the dark side. She may be the protagonist, but the plot is still about the Skywalkers, without them, Rey would still be in Jakku, waiting for her parents.

I'm with @special_cases @OrionStars @Mila95 @ZioRen and @Saracene, Rey taking Skywalker name doesn't make sense at all. It isn't even flattering to her, as a character. Let her be her own heroine with her own legacy. If they want to finish the Skywalker saga, finish it for good.

About the talk of negativism and pessimism, I don't get it. As I said before, this is the thread to discuss spoilers and rumours. None of us is suddenly cheering against Reylo. We're discussing the leaks we have. I believe there's missing scenes, but since we don't know these missing scenes, we're discussing the scenes we have.

In my mind, I'm still trying to process the information we have, and I agree that the final trailer was uber romantic.
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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 8 Empty Re: Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

Post by OrionStars on Sun 10 Nov 2019 - 19:27

@californiagirl

Holy sith, who said Kylo had all the attention? For the love of God, who could say that??? Kylo got like 15 minutes of screentime with sporadic scenes in both TFA and TLJ and he had to endure a lot of humiliation. Thanks to JJ, after TFA, fanboys even deemed Kylo an emo, weak man-baby. Kylo miraculously became people's favorite solely because of Adam's performance in TLJ. Adam had saved the day and made people take Kylo seriously. People may feel that Adam's character has overshadowed Ridley's character due to Adam's acting chops, but it doesn't mean he has all the aid of the universe and plot armor to go against all odds like Rey. Oh god =(((((
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