The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews

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Post by special_cases on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 4:23 pm

TROS can be in similar situation TFA was. First two weeks 70-80% loved it, best since Empire, then half turned on it after thinking about everything a little, part became neutral and some people, of course, didn't care that much. TROS is much worse film as standalone so compaints can hit just later. I think they did win many people back and fueled passion of 50% fanboys simply by fact of retconning TLJ in such brutal way. These fans now feel important and loved, everybody listened to them. But at what cost? Time will tell.

I hope KMT is strong enough and she knows that there are a lot of people that love her and rooting for her. I also hope that Driver didn't regret the whole experience especially if they made it clear that he will be sidelined and sacrificed for spectacle in the most important movie for the character. I think he is a big boy and has brilliant career but deep down I suspect it can be hurtful for him if you care about your own character who definitely requires more presence in the movie to close his arc.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 4:29 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:I just have no faith in LF, or more specifically I have zero faith that they'll be allowed to tell more artistic storylines in films after what happened with TLJ. I truly think Kathleen Kennedy loved TLJ. I think LF was proud of their accomplishment (the story group sure was - it was clear to me in their comments about the film). I think they were basically tethered and JJ and Terrio were possibly working with a check-list of some kind dictating certain things, re: nostalgia-driven and OT focused, less focus on unpopular characters like Rose, etc. That does not mean most the dumbest ideas didn't come from them. I believe they did.

My only hope is this film makes less money than anticipated, and I just don't know if that's a realistic expectation. It seems as though this film may be pleasing the GA, and if that's what they wanted, then they may just succeed. Or not. It's hard to say.
@FrolickingFizzgig
I think that's a totally reasonable expectation. Like, I don't want the film where Reylo are in love and kiss to actually tank. But I think they need to take a second look at this kind of mediocre and borderline traumatizing (especially given their messaging regarding Star Wars) storytelling. The last thing I want any fandom to be is a carbon copy of the worst, most hatable factions, but I hope those with energy and eloquence are able to have a legitimate conversation and feel they were heard by someone higher up (I'll probably be long gone in a few weeks max. - the anthology films were basically the end for me - so that's why it has to be others, lol). I didn't even hate the film as a piece of entertainment, but there are some seriously, seriously uniquely problematic messages in this film that I hope someone somewhere realizes, "... what did we DO?" at some point at least.

@nickandnora
I'm split because while I absolutely do not want the film to tank due to the simple fact that it's held up solely by Rey and Kylo's story (and the last step in Ben's arc), I would love for them to see what they have done. They won't, of course. They don't care. It's a massive multi-billion dollar corporation and their only purpose is making money. If they make their money a certain way then they'll continue to employ that method, but methinks it won't succeed forever.

I'll be waiting to hear about their future announcements.

@special_cases
Yes, I agree with you that Adam seems a bit burned by his experience with TROS. He was a lot more invested in TLJ, and while he absolutely finished his arc as spectacularly as he could, it was not given the breathing room it needed. I do believe he would come back to the role if given another opportunity to work with the right director/writer even if I just can't imagine it would happen. Ultimately he still has the most emotional arc and he is the most popular ST character (followed by Rey).

I do not believe they'll abandon Kylo entirely in future storytelling.
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Post by Mila95 on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 4:57 pm

@special_cases wrote:TROS can be in similar situation TFA was. First two weeks 70-80% loved it, best since Empire, then half turned on it after thinking about everything a little, part became neutral and some people, of course, didn't care that much. TROS is much worse film as standalone so compaints can hit just later. I think they did win many people back and fueled passion of 50% fanboys simply by fact of retconning TLJ in such brutal way. These fans now feel important and loved, everybody listened to them. But at what cost? Time will tell.

I hope KMT is strong enough and she knows that there are a lot of people that love her and rooting for her. I also hope that Driver didn't regret the whole experience especially if they made it clear that he will be sidelined and sacrificed for spectacle in the most important movie for the character. I think he is a big boy and has brilliant career but deep down I suspect it can be hurtful for him if you care about your own character who definitely requires more presence in the movie to close his arc.
@special_cases

I feel like Adam must feel at least a bit disappointed, not really because of Ben's arc specifically, but because everything he ever said he didn't like about big blockbuster movies and that made him hesitate to sign on for SW was all over this movie in a horrible way.

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Post by SanghaRen on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 4:59 pm

I must say TRoS made me indeed rethink the whole AD not being actively part of the promotion. I guess we’ll never know the reasons, if it was more LF’s decision or more his, but if it was more his, I have now understanding, which I had less not so long ago. Still, I hope he realizes fans of his character remain fans of his character. That mess of a movie hasn’t changed that. Some SW fans see beyond the CGI stuff and value character dedication and high quality acting performance. This character has resonated with so many people.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 5:10 pm

He's currently campaigning for an Oscar, isn't he? That takes a lot. I do believe he's probably not thrilled with the final product (because yes, IMO, it's ultimately the editing and pacing that f*ck this film, not even the dumb non-plot), but Kylo's arc was still fantastic overall. Without a doubt the only truly consistent thing in the ST. It was believable, human and I understand why the character spoke to Adam all along. He played Ben Solo as the sweet, good and warm boy I always knew was within him (and that Adam occasionally showed moments of throughout both films). People will be telling him how much they appreciate Ben Solo and Kylo forever. They'll never let him forget how much the character meant to them, IMO. Just as Reylos refused to let Kelly go without thanks for Rose. That is the power fans do have.
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Post by YeeRees on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 5:47 pm

@nickandnora wrote:I'm not sure this is relevant, comforting, or otherwise, but there has been once or twice where I did get the sense from either Matt or Pablo that their own personal belief was that Kylo should die at the end of this trilogy, so I'm not sure if *that* is something they have an issue with or if it was predetermined or not. I wish I could cite specific instances, but if anyone else remembers this, feel free to share. But this Rey Palpatine thing seems to be something else entirely. Hmmm.
@nickandnora

From the tweets I’ve seen, Matt Martin and Pablo Hidalgo are on the side of the heroes. I remember seeing screenshots of Pablo being very critical of Kylo and praising Finn and Rey (who was raised by sand!) It doesn’t mean Kylo/Ben was always slated to die but they obviously kept the option on the table.

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Before Pablo made his account private he did make a few comments which implied he wasn’t entirely comfortable with what JJ was doing with IX. He outright said it wasn’t the story he would have told. He also made it clear it wasn’t in his power to change the story one way or another.

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Post by rey09 on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 6:01 pm

I've listened to hello greedo a few times, not many, he's not strongly opinionated. He really loved the reylo stuff doesnt mention the kiss but he wanted way more of them and everything else was meh. Ugh what could have been


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Post by Atenais on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 6:03 pm

@nickandnora wrote:I think that's a totally reasonable expectation. Like, I don't want the film where Reylo are in love and kiss to actually tank. But I think they need to take a second look at this kind of mediocre and borderline traumatizing (especially given their messaging regarding Star Wars) storytelling. The last thing I want any fandom to be is a carbon copy of the worst, most hatable factions, but I hope those with energy and eloquence are able to have a legitimate conversation and feel they were heard by someone higher up (I'll probably be long gone in a few weeks max. - the anthology films were basically the end for me - so that's why it has to be others, lol). I didn't even hate the film as a piece of entertainment, but there are some seriously, seriously uniquely problematic messages in this film that I hope someone somewhere realizes, "... what did we DO?" at some point at least.

@nickandnora

Yeah, I understand you. But at the same time, if these big companies never fail, they will keep giving us these manufactured tasteless products. Is this the future? Will we have to be content with these Soma like movies?

@Mila95 wrote:
@special_cases wrote:TROS can be in similar situation TFA was. First two weeks 70-80% loved it, best since Empire, then half turned on it after thinking about everything a little, part became neutral and some people, of course, didn't care that much. TROS is much worse film as standalone so compaints can hit just later. I think they did win many people back and fueled passion of 50% fanboys simply by fact of retconning TLJ in such brutal way. These fans now feel important and loved, everybody listened to them. But at what cost? Time will tell.

I hope KMT is strong enough and she knows that there are a lot of people that love her and rooting for her. I also hope that Driver didn't regret the whole experience especially if they made it clear that he will be sidelined and sacrificed for spectacle in the most important movie for the character. I think he is a big boy and has brilliant career but deep down I suspect it can be hurtful for him if you care about your own character who definitely requires more presence in the movie to close his arc.
@special_cases

I feel like Adam must feel at least a bit disappointed, not really because of Ben's arc specifically, but because everything he ever said he didn't like about big blockbuster movies and that made him hesitate to sign on for SW was all over this movie in a horrible way.
@Mila95

Yeah, I actually feel he must be disappointed. I remember he said in a interview that he wished to talk more openly about his character without having to avoid spoilers. I wish he would do it now While I believe he probably wouldn't say anything bad about the movies, I want to hear more about his thoughts.

@YeeRees wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:I'm not sure this is relevant, comforting, or otherwise, but there has been once or twice where I did get the sense from either Matt or Pablo that their own personal belief was that Kylo should die at the end of this trilogy, so I'm not sure if *that* is something they have an issue with or if it was predetermined or not. I wish I could cite specific instances, but if anyone else remembers this, feel free to share. But this Rey Palpatine thing seems to be something else entirely. Hmmm.
@nickandnora

From the tweets I’ve seen, Matt Martin and Pablo Hidalgo are on the side of the heroes. I remember seeing screenshots of Pablo being very critical of Kylo and praising Finn and Rey (who was raised by sand!) It doesn’t mean Kylo/Ben was always slated to die but they obviously kept the option on the table.

The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews - Page 5 3426ff10

Before Pablo made his account private he did make a few comments which implied he wasn’t entirely comfortable with what JJ was doing with IX. He outright said it wasn’t the story he would have told. He also made it clear it wasn’t in his power to change the story one way or another.

@YeeRees

From what I see these guys are like the guardians of Star Wars Lore, it doesn't mean they are great storytellers.
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Post by Atenais on Fri 20 Dec 2019, 8:15 pm

Review: ‘Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker’ is here to remind you just how good ‘The Last Jedi’ was: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/movies/story/2019-12-18/star-wars-review-the-rise-of-skywalker-last-jedi

The more accurate way to describe it, I think, is as an epic failure of nerve. This “Rise” feels more like a retreat, a return to a zone of emotional and thematic safety from a filmmaker with a gift for packaging nostalgia as subversion.

Like some of his other major pop-cultural contributions (two enjoyable “Star Trek” movies and the twisty TV series “Lost” among them), “The Rise of Skywalker” is a swift and vigorous entertainment, with a sense of forward momentum that keeps you watching despite several dubious plot turns and cheap narrative fakeouts.

Best of all, there is Adam Driver, as Kylo Ren, once more the darkly brooding yin to Rey’s righteous yang.

Along the way, the leads engage in some tiresome bickering — for all their individual charisma, Rey, Finn and Poe never develop any real, compelling interplay — which makes you all the more grateful when Kylo Ren arrives to shake things up.

Speaking of rose: It isn’t the strategic sidelining of Rose Tico (Kelly Marie Tran), an engaging character from “The Last Jedi” whose minimal screen time here will surely delight some of her more racist detractors. It isn’t the blink-and-you-miss-it shot of two women kissing — a craven sop to the many fans who have wondered if Finn and Poe’s intense chemistry might turn out to be more than strictly bromantic.

If “The Rise of Skywalker” serves any purpose, it’s as a snapshot of what Disney, a First Order unto itself in the quest for global entertainment domination, thinks of the audience’s intelligence. It isn’t a flattering picture.

More than anything — more even than the billions in box office dollars that surely await it — this series needs artists willing to flood its mythology with new life, rather than turning it into another endless replay of “The Skywalking Dead.”
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:29 am

The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews - Page 5 GBS23sd
The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews - Page 5 4n5qVSz

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Post by Mila95 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:10 am

Wow I just checked all the SW cinema scores and they never got less than a A-, not even the prequels or Solo.

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Post by OrionStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:18 am

@Mila95 wrote:Wow I just checked all the SW cinema scores and they never got less than a A-, not even the prequels or Solo.
@Mila95

I think this poll can explain a lot

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It's not that hard to please US audience but Ben's death in TROS is like a slap in their face.
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Post by cherrylipstick on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 3:48 am

Wow Kylo is still 92% in the official poll  ROFL  ROFL  

Never thought that one day I would have liked to see a SW movie fail. Actually I don't REALLY want to, but at the same time I'd like that producers behind it will understand that if they make such big mistakes treating their fans, then they have to pay somehow. And maybe if they sense a failure, MAYBE, they will make more interesting and original products in the future.

Anyway, maybe I will sound a little mean, but I always feel a great plesaure reading how critics point out the cheap treatment KMT got with this movie and do not seem to appreciate Finn's arc very much.
I guess now John will be satisfied with his character ... Laughing
I'm sorry for this bitterness, but  John had annoyed me lately with his behavior, wanting to distance himself as much as possible from Rose and Kelly, convinced that his character would shine. But apparently not even his good friend JJ made the miracle Twisted Evil
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Post by unicorn on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 3:57 am

@OrionStars

So SW9 is now a B-Movie? Good grief. Shocked
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Post by SanghaRen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:17 am

That one sticks out in the LA Times magazine for me “the suggestion that we might, in fact, be more than the sum of our daddy issues”. At first glance, TLJ might have looked depressing, but then it was liberating and providing a clean slate for the characters to grow beyond their legacies. Which I guess is what TRoS sort of says again at the end with Rey Palpatine defeating Grandpa, but then you already had a clean slate so why? And she rejects one legacy and takes on another one. What’s wrong with Rey just being Rey. I guess it grates me a lot, because I have never had this attachment to family names. I mostly introduce myself only with my first name even in business situations. Like that lady at the end irritated me with her insistence on a last name. It reminded me of my home region where people are obsessed with last names so they can put labels on you. Oh, well.

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Post by special_cases on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:17 am

@OrionStars

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Haha, I knew it, RT score is not that reliable and Cinemascore will show a real picture. But it's still a surprise that TROS got B on opening night, it's mostly hardcore fans there. Though marketing was straight out lying to us so people who loved TLJ were really pissed immediately.

Seems like TROS will have weaker legs than expected, but doesn't look like it will be a BO disaster. I'm sure it will have very weak legs in Europe and Asia, but not in the US.
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 9:10 am

@special_cases They're saying it won't top TLJ's box office number, which means it will subvert the mouse's box office expectation (again). What are they gonna do to Bennie Boi after this? About to C About to C About to C

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Post by SheLitAFire on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 9:36 am

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Post by OrionStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 10:03 am

@unicorn wrote:
@OrionStars

So SW9 is now a B-Movie? Good grief. Shocked
@unicorn


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Post by guardienne on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 10:20 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:He's currently campaigning for an Oscar, isn't he? That takes a lot. I do believe he's probably not thrilled with the final product
@FrolickingFizzgig

he doesn't know the final product as he doesn't watch his movies.



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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 10:25 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@Mila95 wrote:Wow I just checked all the SW cinema scores and they never got less than a A-, not even the prequels or Solo.
@Mila95

I think this poll can explain a lot

The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews - Page 5 AOULwLA

It's not that hard to please US audience but Ben's death in TROS is like a slap in their face.
WOW!
Kylo gets 92%. Rey just 3%.

I hope someone shows this to Kathleen Kennedy, maybe she'll realise destroying an amazing character and relationship in order to push her own brand of toxic femininity has backfired badly.

After seeing The Mandalorian, if only we could get a spin off series rectifying the wrongs of this mess.
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 11:39 am

This is all so deserved. TLJ threw down the guantlet, leaving interesting and challenging story threads for TRoS to work from. It asks what happens when the one running the show is now Kylo when he's obviously slated for a redemption arc? How does that change the dynamic of the story, since it's harder to work from that than from a pure evil big bad hanging over everything? What will the future of the Jedi look like when Rey, and Kylo technically, are the only ones with that knowledge now? How will Rey cement her place in a saga when she's not related to a character we know? How will the Resistance rebuild to take on the future threat? Hell, they could have even pulled from DJ's plot (though I wasn't thinking that thread would be followed. I respect the effort to insert some grey, but it's a bit out of place within Star Wars).

TRoS obviously found these questions too challenging to answer and either tossed them in the garbage or answered them in the laziest possible way. Except the fact that Reylo exists. The only plot that was solid from the start. And to some degree I think they knew this would cause some problems, so they tried to appeal to those who hated TLJ in hopes that they would give the movie the boost it needed out of spite and mask some of its shortcomings. Say what you will about TLJ but it DID answer TFA's questions, just in a way that many fans didn't expect or like.

This is a roundabout and ranty way of saying that I'm glad professional reviewers aren't letting the creative decisionmakers for TRoS get away with this without being called out for it.
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Post by special_cases on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 11:53 am

@ZioRen wrote:This is all so deserved. TLJ threw down the guantlet, leaving interesting and challenging story threads for TRoS to work from. It asks what happens when the one running the show is now Kylo when he's obviously slated for a redemption arc? How does that change the dynamic of the story, since it's harder to work from that than from a pure evil big bad hanging over everything? What will the future of the Jedi look like when Rey, and Kylo technically, are the only ones with that knowledge now? How will Rey cement her place in a saga when she's not related to a character we know? How will the Resistance rebuild to take on the future threat? Hell, they could have even pulled from DJ's plot (though I wasn't thinking that thread would be followed. I respect the effort to insert some grey, but it's a bit out of place within Star Wars).

TRoS obviously found these questions too challenging to answer and either tossed them in the garbage or answered them in the laziest possible way. Except the fact that Reylo exists. The only plot that was solid from the start. And to some degree I think they knew this would cause some problems, so they tried to appeal to those who hated TLJ in hopes that they would give the movie the boost it needed out of spite and mask some of its shortcomings. Say what you will about TLJ but it DID answer TFA's questions, just in a way that many fans didn't expect or like.

This is a roundabout and ranty way of saying that I'm glad professional reviewers aren't letting the creative decisionmakers for TRoS get away with this without being called out for it.
@ZioRen

Additionally TLJ marketing never lied THAT MUCH. It had early moments about Luke and Rey but marketing made it clear where the story is going with final trailer. JJ was very invested to give us impression that he respects TLJ and that angry sexist complainers won't be the ones they want to satisfy - and that was the opposite of what they're doing in the movie. They changed their tone in last three weeks before release date when it was too late.
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Post by Mila95 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 12:12 pm

@ZioRen wrote:This is all so deserved. TLJ threw down the guantlet, leaving interesting and challenging story threads for TRoS to work from. It asks what happens when the one running the show is now Kylo when he's obviously slated for a redemption arc? How does that change the dynamic of the story, since it's harder to work from that than from a pure evil big bad hanging over everything? What will the future of the Jedi look like when Rey, and Kylo technically, are the only ones with that knowledge now? How will Rey cement her place in a saga when she's not related to a character we know? How will the Resistance rebuild to take on the future threat? Hell, they could have even pulled from DJ's plot (though I wasn't thinking that thread would be followed. I respect the effort to insert some grey, but it's a bit out of place within Star Wars).

TRoS obviously found these questions too challenging to answer and either tossed them in the garbage or answered them in the laziest possible way. Except the fact that Reylo exists. The only plot that was solid from the start. And to some degree I think they knew this would cause some problems, so they tried to appeal to those who hated TLJ in hopes that they would give the movie the boost it needed out of spite and mask some of its shortcomings. Say what you will about TLJ but it DID answer TFA's questions, just in a way that many fans didn't expect or like.

This is a roundabout and ranty way of saying that I'm glad professional reviewers aren't letting the creative decisionmakers for TRoS get away with this without being called out for it.
@ZioRen

Exactly, I really don't get it when people say Rian left JJ with no where to go because TLJ could and end to the trilogy and I see this argument so much. I mean how is the First Order winning, the resistance almost gone and Kylo the supreme leader who is still conflicted and has a force bond with Rey who only now accepted that she's the last jedi supposed to be an ending with no where to go. I think what Rian did was make it difficult to do a ROTJ remake but not an actual next movie but JJ really wanted his rehash no matter what.

The reviews are calling them out so much, I kinda love it. I was expecting it not do well with critics because it undoes almost everything they praised about TLJ but I wasn't expecting it to be so brutal and for almost every review to call them out on the retcon and pandering to toxic hate.

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The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews - Page 5 Empty Re: The Rise of Skywalker: Professional Reviews

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 12:18 pm

@ZioRen wrote:This is all so deserved. TLJ threw down the guantlet, leaving interesting and challenging story threads for TRoS to work from. It asks what happens when the one running the show is now Kylo when he's obviously slated for a redemption arc? How does that change the dynamic of the story, since it's harder to work from that than from a pure evil big bad hanging over everything? What will the future of the Jedi look like when Rey, and Kylo technically, are the only ones with that knowledge now? How will Rey cement her place in a saga when she's not related to a character we know? How will the Resistance rebuild to take on the future threat? Hell, they could have even pulled from DJ's plot (though I wasn't thinking that thread would be followed. I respect the effort to insert some grey, but it's a bit out of place within Star Wars).

TRoS obviously found these questions too challenging to answer and either tossed them in the garbage or answered them in the laziest possible way. Except the fact that Reylo exists. The only plot that was solid from the start. And to some degree I think they knew this would cause some problems, so they tried to appeal to those who hated TLJ in hopes that they would give the movie the boost it needed out of spite and mask some of its shortcomings. Say what you will about TLJ but it DID answer TFA's questions, just in a way that many fans didn't expect or like.

This is a roundabout and ranty way of saying that I'm glad professional reviewers aren't letting the creative decisionmakers for TRoS get away with this without being called out for it.
@ZioRen
Indeed, TLJ left the narrative with some of the most interesting, compelling, unique and nuanced themes and character conflicts in the franchise. There were ideas that made you truly question what it means to be a Jedi, what it means to have the Force, what balance really is, how the dark side bends one's mind, the impacts of war and and loss. That first sequence with Paige Tico is one of the most emotional moments in Star Wars, and the film continues to deliver thought-provoking and beautiful narrative tied in with meaningful visuals and acting. It's unbelievably painful to me as a writer to see an artist who put his heart and soul into his creation get sidelined in favour of the most nonsensical, lazy drivel to every come out of LucasFilm. It also hurts to see critics raging because of this - because they're furious that something like this can happen, that the most unsympathetic and impossible to satisfy fans can whine and be handed everything they said they wanted on a silver platter by two truly bad writers who also somehow managed to craft an extremely bad film visually, thematically, via editing, etc.

I'm never going to stop finding things I hate about this film even with the few moments I love. Just today I had a five minute internal screaming match about Rey using Force Lightning and becoming a vessel for the literal f****ing powers of a man. That's not how the Force works, that's not how lineage/bloodline works, that's not how any of this works.

Critics are furious because they feel helpless, and that's also part of the reason I'm angry. I now fully expect this film to underperform in comparison to TLJ and that's the only win anybody who favoured mature, smart, meaningful writing will ever get. It's not a win because it's just sad and highlights the truth: these fans are not pleasable even if some are glad solely because this film undermines Rian Johnson's decisions so horrifically. They don't care about the movie. They're not going to ensure that it makes lots and lots of money, and it's just going to end up a tragic reminder to everybody at LucasFilm who was dreading this.
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