Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by special_cases on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:05 pm

Remember this moment? It's midpoint of second chapter and here the sentiment of "not being alone" between them is establishing Rey's personal wishes and the future resolution of her emotional arc. As it falls apart to the end of this chapter, it should be restored near the end of story. So how is it great idea to close the story with a literal shot of Rey being with droid? BB-8 should have went with Rey on Ach-To and she wouldn't have felt alone then? I can understand that you can read the Ben's death as him becoming literal part of Rey, it's reasonable interpretation, but is it even highlighted by the narrative or possible to undertstand without being hardcore fan like us, analyzing every second of story for years?

The resolution should be loud and clear. ST seriously suffers from some kind of unknown subtext syndrome which I've never encountered before. The real story is hidden so deep that it feels like storytellers are afraid of it themselves.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:06 pm

Saw questions about it, apologies if the answer was posted, and I missed it:

The review embargo lifts at 3:00am ET, 2:00am CT, 1:00AM MT, etc. Apologies if I did not extend the time conversion.

Keeping an eye on Rotten Tomatoes an Metacritic will be interesting!

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Post by Armadeus on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:07 pm

@Geralt_Riv wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 5adb1610
@Kylo Rey
I was right!  Cool
@Geralt_Riv

But at what cost? Razz
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:13 pm

@special_cases wrote:Remember this moment? It's midpoint of second chapter and here the sentiment of "not being alone" between them is establishing Rey's personal wishes and the future resolution of her emotional arc. As it falls apart to the end of this chapter, it should be restored near the end of story. So how is it great idea to close the story with a literal shot of Rey being with droid? I can understand that you can read the Ben's death as him becoming literal part of Rey, it's reasonable interpretation, but is it even highlighted by the narrative or possible to undertstand without being hardcore fan like us, analyzing every second of story for years?

The resolution should be loud and clear. ST seriously suffers from some kind of unknown subtext syndrome which I've never encountered before. The real story is hidden so deep that it feels like storytellers are afraid of it themselves.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Original
@special_cases
I'm pretty sure this is the metaphorical idea and it's exactly what Terrio and Abrams are going to talk about post-TROS, but it's way too esoteric and hidden in subtext for the audience to grasp, as you outlined here. It's a cool and kind of beautiful theme that was executed in a strange and difficult to decipher way, but I'm still excited to see the film myself and hear the analysis from the calmer and more thoughtful Reylos. As of yet I don't really feel we have a Reylo perspective on the film that isn't just Q and As about what happens.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:13 pm

@Armadeus You will appreciate how after reading about all of this and realizing what likely happened (the studio cracked down because they wanting something that wouldn't cause bad press/alienate potential customers for the streaming service and theme park roll outs), I starting thinking about how Alejandro Jodorowsky's version of Dune never saw the light of day and the concept art/designs ended up in Star Wars and Alien. Which I've joked that Lucas should've just given Jodorowsky the money to finally make it instead of the PT. But just reading what the basic plot, they threw out every single theme and idea aside from the best one, the heroine and the villain are soulmates/fated lovers. So now I'm thinking that the ST as finishing up Lucas' original 9 chapter idea is going to be the same thing - it'll be discussed in the future as having the potential to be amazing if the studio (big distinction as Lucas self funded to the point of near bankruptcy to get most of the OT and nearly all the PT) hadn't lost their courage. And the only reason the PT (along with ESB and RotJ)got made was the money Lucas raised through licensing and merchandizing.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:15 pm

What's so sad is even Reylo is tainted now.
JJ might have done this to retcon The Last Jedi, but he's also trashed his own film.
So... Rey's story starts with her alone on a bleak desert planet, desperately wanting a family and belonging.

And her adventures end.....
With her alone on a bleak desert planet, knowing she's descended from a monster.

FOR PETE'S SAKE JJ .....? who's idea was this?
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Post by snufkin on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:35 pm

They'll always have Ache-to and trysting in the Smut Hut.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Original

Just from the description, the entire plot for the two of them is so ridiculous and contrived. If the filmmaker's plan was that Ben dies in a moment of self-sacrifice for his true love, it doesn't even sound like a well-executed romantic tragedy. Not joking that I think JJ being friends with GdT decided to do something like Crimson Peak with Sir Thomas Sharpe falling in love with Edith and redeeming himself by dying for her as a way of atoning for his sins. IDK, did they think trotting out the Emperor would make it Romeo and Juliet? Except it's what Rian said about Snoke monologuing to Rey, she'd be like "who the Hell are you?" They even reduced her parents from being tragic/having pathos to plot points like Jyn's parents of connecting her to the OT and the PT. Which is also ridiculous, the whole part about her being a nobody (something Arndt said in the 2015 WGA talk, no wonder Kasdan is salty) with Kylo's bad marriage proposal is that she's utterly her own person. No connections to the larger picture of the PT and OT.
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Post by Armadeus on Tue 17 Dec 2019, 11:37 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:Saw questions about it, apologies if the answer was posted, and I missed it:

The review embargo lifts at 3:00am ET, 2:00am CT, 1:00AM MT, etc.  Apologies if I did not extend the time conversion.  

Keeping an eye on Rotten Tomatoes an Metacritic will be interesting!

@SW_Heroine_Journey

Just wanna acknowledge your using The Last Unicorn. One of the best fantasies ever written. Heartbreaking and uplifting all at once. The best modern fairy tale bar none.

Quote from the book:

This dialogue will live forever in my heart:

Peter S. Beagle wrote:You are a true and mortal wizard now, as you always wished. Does it make you happy?"
"Yes," he replied with a quiet laugh. "I'm not poor Haggard, to lose my heart's desire in the having of it. But there are wizards and wizards; there is black magic and white magic, and the infinite shades of gray between — and I see now that it is all the same. Whether I decide to be what men would call a wise and good magician — aiding heroes, thwarting witches, wicked lords, and unreasonable parents; making rain, curing woolsorter's disease and the mad staggers, getting cats down from trees — or whether I choose the retorts full of elixirs and essences, the powders and herbs and banes, the padlocked books of gramarye bound in skins better left unnamed, the muddy mist darkening in the chamber and the sweet voice lisping therein — why, life is short, and how many can I help or harm? I have my power at last, but the world is still too heavy for me to move, though my friend Lír might think otherwise." And he laughed again in his dream, a little sadly.
The unicorn said, "That is true. You are a man, and men can do nothing that makes any difference." But her voice was strangely slow and burdened. She asked, "Which will you choose?"
The magician laughed for a third time. "Oh, it will be the kind magic, undoubtedly, because you would like it more.
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Post by justyou on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 12:05 am

@Armadeus wrote:

@SW_Heroine_Journey

Just wanna acknowledge your using The Last Unicorn. One of the best fantasies ever written. Heartbreaking and uplifting all at once. The best modern fairy tale bar none.

Quote from the book:

This dialogue will live forever in my heart:

Peter S. Beagle wrote:You are a true and mortal wizard now, as you always wished. Does it make you happy?"
"Yes," he replied with a quiet laugh. "I'm not poor Haggard, to lose my heart's desire in the having of it. But there are wizards and wizards; there is black magic and white magic, and the infinite shades of gray between — and I see now that it is all the same. Whether I decide to be what men would call a wise and good magician — aiding heroes, thwarting witches, wicked lords, and unreasonable parents; making rain, curing woolsorter's disease and the mad staggers, getting cats down from trees — or whether I choose the retorts full of elixirs and essences, the powders and herbs and banes, the padlocked books of gramarye bound in skins better left unnamed, the muddy mist darkening in the chamber and the sweet voice lisping therein — why, life is short, and how many can I help or harm? I have my power at last, but the world is still too heavy for me to move, though my friend Lír might think otherwise." And he laughed again in his dream, a little sadly.
The unicorn said, "That is true. You are a man, and men can do nothing that makes any difference." But her voice was strangely slow and burdened. She asked, "Which will you choose?"
The magician laughed for a third time. "Oh, it will be the kind magic, undoubtedly, because you would like it more.
@Armadeus

LOVE The Last Unicorn! It was probably my all time favorite cartoon movie as a kid. Maybe even movie but Annie and Flight of the Navigator gave it a good run too. I'll have to check out the book sometime.



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Post by Armadeus on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 12:40 am

@snufkin wrote:They'll always have Ache-to and trysting in the Smut Hut.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Original

Just from the description, the entire plot for the two of them is so ridiculous and contrived. If the filmmaker's plan was that Ben dies in a moment of self-sacrifice for his true love, it doesn't even sound like a well-executed romantic tragedy. Not joking that I think JJ being friends with GdT decided to do something like Crimson Peak with Sir Thomas Sharpe falling in love with Edith and redeeming himself by dying for her as a way of atoning for his sins. IDK, did they think trotting out the Emperor would make it Romeo and Juliet? Except it's what Rian said about Snoke monologuing to Rey, she'd be like "who the Hell are you?" They even reduced her parents from being tragic/having pathos to plot points like Jyn's parents of connecting her to the OT and the PT. Which is also ridiculous, the whole part about her being a nobody (something Arndt said in the 2015 WGA talk, no wonder Kasdan is salty) with Kylo's bad marriage proposal is that she's utterly her own person. No connections to the larger picture of the PT and OT.
@snufkin

I was willing to lay down money we'd get a Casablanca style ending... just wasn't in the cards, I guess.
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Post by Lily Snape on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:01 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:What's so sad is even Reylo is tainted now.
JJ might have done this to retcon The Last Jedi, but he's also trashed his own film.
So... Rey's story starts with her alone on a bleak desert planet, desperately wanting a family and belonging.

And her adventures end.....
With her alone on a bleak desert planet, knowing she's descended from a monster.

FOR PETE'S SAKE JJ .....? who's idea was this?
@motherofpearl1

It’s Rey’s year-long adventure, discovering her power and her ancestry, getting to know the Skywalker family as one by one, all four of them die off. She ends as she began, alone on a desert planet, presumably older and wiser, after the man she loves dies. I know there’s more to it than that, but it’s just such a colossal bummer.
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Post by snufkin on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:04 am

@Armadeus Casablanca or something tragic like the ending of Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon. Or even if they'd used all that weird Force lore from the animated series where they end up like Will and Lyra in His Dark Materials. Instead Rey goes from being an orphan to being a widow living like Obi-Wan as a crazy hermit in the desert mourning her lost love
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Post by special_cases on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:07 am

I think I figured out what really happens in the end.

Ben just switched bodies in the end, during their kiss. He decided that it will be hard for him to live in the Galaxy with his previous face, after he was the Supreme Leader. That's why "Rey" called herself Skywalker. Rise of Skywalker!
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Post by Lily Snape on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:12 am

@special_cases wrote:I think I figured out what really happens in the end.

Ben just switched bodies in the end, during their kiss. He decided that it will be hard for him to live in the Galaxy with his previous face, after he was the Supreme Leader. That's why "Rey" called herself Skywalker. Rise of Skywalker!
@special_cases

I’m just waiting for the end when BB8 tweets at her and she goes, “Exactly— EXACTLY!!!” and BB8 is like, hmmmmm....

Edited to add: OK, this Californian is tired (too tired to wait for the reviews), but one more thing before I go to sleep: they could have written any story for these characters. Why this one? I get it that, when resurrecting Han, Leia, and Luke, they’d probably have to lay those characters to rest, given their age and the fact that the odds of them surviving another few decades to a further trilogy are slim, but Kylo, who’d been targeted since infancy? Or leaving Rey alone at the end? I just don’t get it. I can understand why some people wonder why they made these sequels at all, undoing the successes of the OT, bringing back the Emperor, and killing off all of the remaining Skywalkers in a one-year period without even doing anything with Anakin...I’m just kind of baffled. I’m kind of with the folks who find it nihilistic. I’ll see it anyway, though— I figure I need to judge for myself.
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Post by OrionStars on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:40 am

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 W34pj12

That escalated quickly
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 1:56 am

Everyone hates TLJ. Everyone thinks the sequel trilogy ruined SW. Up until now I always disagreed.
Post ROTJ the OT had good lives. For three decades they enjoyed:
Becoming the greatest Jedi of all time - Luke
A successful political career - Leia
Continued space adventures - Han.

And they had an heir - Ben Solo.

I have repeatedly defended these films to toxic fandom.
And what happens.....the last Skywalker dies at the hands of a Palpatine. The Emperor has won.
I feel betrayed.

Years ago I was a huge X Men fan, but I stopped reading the comics because the then editor in chief ran them into the ground because they weren't making any money out of the movie versions. Now it seems Disney have done exactly the same with the Skywalkers. The family that were the heart and soul of Star Wars have been made extinct purely so the new bosses can 'do their own thing with TV series and other media. But this is unnecessary. They didn't have to destroy the Skywalkers to forge new stories and create new characters.

And what really makes me mad...... Oscar complained that he wanted his character to live, and got his wish. Daisy wanted Rey to be single and got her wish (at least those who argued she didn't need a man are satisfied).
Poor old Adam, who gave the best performance, created a wonderful character that has become my favourite, and didn't whine to the directors to change the plot for his own gratification....
Gets his character thrown under the bus. No wonder he hasn't been in any of the promos.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that lot if I was him.
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Post by Kyla Ren on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:00 am

@Lily Snape wrote:
@special_cases wrote:I think I figured out what really happens in the end.

Ben just switched bodies in the end, during their kiss. He decided that it will be hard for him to live in the Galaxy with his previous face, after he was the Supreme Leader. That's why "Rey" called herself Skywalker. Rise of Skywalker!
@special_cases

I’m just waiting for the end when BB8 tweets at her and she goes, “Exactly— EXACTLY!!!” and BB8 is like, hmmmmm....

Edited to add:  OK, this Californian is tired (too tired to wait for the reviews), but one more thing before I go to sleep:  they could have written any story for these characters.  Why this one?  I get it that, when resurrecting Han, Leia, and Luke, they’d probably have to lay those characters to rest, given their age and the fact that the odds of them surviving another few decades to a further trilogy are slim, but Kylo, who’d been targeted since infancy?  Or leaving Rey alone at the end?  I just don’t get it.  I can understand why some people wonder why they made these sequels at all, undoing the successes of the OT, bringing back the Emperor, and killing off all of the remaining Skywalkers in a one-year period without even doing anything with Anakin...I’m just kind of baffled.  I’m kind of with the folks who find it nihilistic.  I’ll see it anyway, though— I figure I need to judge for myself.
@Lily Snape

It's like they took something that was very important to a lot of people, that a lot of people loved and grew up with, and stomped all over it.  I just can't believe they thought this was a good idea.  And I don't understand why they had to kill off all the Skywalkers.  If they really didn't want to continue their story they could have just created new characters and/or set their new stories way in the future and or something.  I don't know.  At this point I just think undoing the happy ending of ROTJ and killing off all the Skywalkers was one of the cruelest things they could have done. Sad  I'm sorry if I sound melodramatic, but the way they ended the Skywalker saga just makes me so sad, not just for Rey and Kylo, but for the entire Skywalker family. Sad
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Post by cherrylipstick on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:01 am

Good morning everyone (at least is morning here  Laughing )
After a day of deliberation I was able to "digest" the ending a little better and I decided to go see the movie today (actually only because I've already paid my ticket Rolling Eyes ), thankfully the fact that I already know what happens will help me through my view.
I'm going this afternon at 4 CET, so I will be able to share my thoughs after. I guess they won't be very positive Laughing Laughing
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Post by Kyla Ren on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:03 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Everyone hates TLJ. Everyone thinks the sequel trilogy ruined SW. Up until now I always disagreed.
Post ROTJ the OT had good lives. For three decades they enjoyed:
Becoming the greatest Jedi of all time - Luke
A successful political career - Leia
Continued space adventures - Han.

And they had an heir - Ben Solo.

I have repeatedly defended these films to toxic fandom.
And what happens.....the last Skywalker dies at the hands of a Palpatine. The Emperor has won.
I feel betrayed.

Years ago I was a huge X Men fan, but I stopped reading the comics because the then editor in chief ran them into the ground because they weren't making any money out of the movie versions. Now it seems Disney have done exactly the same with the Skywalkers.  The family that were the heart and soul of Star Wars have been made extinct purely so the new bosses can 'do their own thing with TV series and other media. But this is unnecessary. They didn't have to destroy the Skywalkers to forge new stories and create new characters.

And what really makes me mad...... Oscar complained that he wanted his character to live, and got his wish. Daisy wanted Rey to be single and got her wish (at least those who argued she didn't need a man are satisfied).
Poor old Adam, who gave the best performance, created a wonderful character that has become my favourite, and didn't whine to the directors to change the plot for his own gratification....
Gets his character thrown under the bus. No wonder he hasn't been in any of the promos.
I wouldn't want to be anywhere near that lot if I was him.
@motherofpearl1

Yes, this!  Exactly this!  I would love to hear the official word on why they felt the need to kill off all the Skywalkers to create their new stories.  It was completely unnecessary!
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Post by OrionStars on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:09 am

Kylo comic is out. Kylo didn't burn the temple, he had to defend himself because the other students coudn't hold back their excitement of killing Kylo, then he seeked refugee at Snoke's place and you can feel the  pedophile vibe of Snoke and Kylo's relationship.

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Post by special_cases on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:18 am

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Post by Gemini on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:28 am

@OrionStars

You were right. They would kill him off and also show you how he was abused as a kid.


Disney: Merry Christmas kids. Please buy our toys.
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Post by Forsythia on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:32 am

@Lily Snape wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:What's so sad is even Reylo is tainted now.
JJ might have done this to retcon The Last Jedi, but he's also trashed his own film.
So... Rey's story starts with her alone on a bleak desert planet, desperately wanting a family and belonging.

And her adventures end.....
With her alone on a bleak desert planet, knowing she's descended from a monster.

FOR PETE'S SAKE JJ .....? who's idea was this?
@motherofpearl1

It’s Rey’s year-long adventure, discovering her power and her ancestry, getting to know the Skywalker family as one by one, all four of them die off.   She ends as she began, alone on a desert planet, presumably older and wiser, after the man she loves dies.  I know there’s more to it than that, but it’s just such a colossal bummer.
I don't understand how JJ can call the ending satisfying and hopeful. All Skywalkers are dead and Palpatine won. Ben was targeted by Palpatine/Snoke and when he finally frees himself from his influence he doesn't deserve to live? Rey, who started alone and looking for a family, ends up alone. Even with Ben dead, why does she need to end up alone when she still has friends? Why doesn't she stay with Finn or Chewie? This ending sounds really depressing No


@OrionStars wrote:Kylo comic is out. Kylo didn't burn the temple, he had to defend himself because the other students coudn't hold back their excitement of killing Kylo, then he seeked refugee at Snoke's place and you can feel the  pedophile vibe of Snoke and Kylo's relationship.

Yikes! Why the hell are they giving us this important part of Ben's story in a comic?! It should have been in the movies. And knowing this part of the story makes the treatment of Ben's character in TROS even worse Crying or Very sad
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Post by Gemini on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:37 am

@Forsythia wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:What's so sad is even Reylo is tainted now.
JJ might have done this to retcon The Last Jedi, but he's also trashed his own film.
So... Rey's story starts with her alone on a bleak desert planet, desperately wanting a family and belonging.

And her adventures end.....
With her alone on a bleak desert planet, knowing she's descended from a monster.

FOR PETE'S SAKE JJ .....? who's idea was this?
@motherofpearl1

It’s Rey’s year-long adventure, discovering her power and her ancestry, getting to know the Skywalker family as one by one, all four of them die off.   She ends as she began, alone on a desert planet, presumably older and wiser, after the man she loves dies.  I know there’s more to it than that, but it’s just such a colossal bummer.
I don't understand how JJ can call the ending satisfying and hopeful. All Skywalkers are dead and Palpatine won. Ben was targeted by Palpatine/Snoke and when he finally frees himself from his influence he doesn't deserve to live? Rey, who started alone and looking for a family, ends up alone. Even with Ben dead, why does she need to end up alone when she still has friends? Why doesn't she stay with Finn or Chewie? This ending sounds really depressing No


@OrionStars wrote:Kylo comic is out. Kylo didn't burn the temple, he had to defend himself because the other students coudn't hold back their excitement of killing Kylo, then he seeked refugee at Snoke's place and you can feel the  pedophile vibe of Snoke and Kylo's relationship.

Yikes! Why the hell are they giving us this important part of Ben's story in a comic?! It should have been in the movies. And knowing this part of the story makes the treatment of Ben's character in TROS even worse Crying or Very sad
@Forsythia

Did JJ kind of forget about her looking at that old lady in TFA and not wanting to end up like her?

Omg this is literally GoT but at least Jon kind of knew he wanted to go back to the NW..

Both reject their true names
Gemini
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Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Empty Re: Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Post by Kyla Ren on Wed 18 Dec 2019, 2:42 am

@Gemini wrote:
@Forsythia wrote:
@Lily Snape wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:What's so sad is even Reylo is tainted now.
JJ might have done this to retcon The Last Jedi, but he's also trashed his own film.
So... Rey's story starts with her alone on a bleak desert planet, desperately wanting a family and belonging.

And her adventures end.....
With her alone on a bleak desert planet, knowing she's descended from a monster.

FOR PETE'S SAKE JJ .....? who's idea was this?
@motherofpearl1

It’s Rey’s year-long adventure, discovering her power and her ancestry, getting to know the Skywalker family as one by one, all four of them die off.   She ends as she began, alone on a desert planet, presumably older and wiser, after the man she loves dies.  I know there’s more to it than that, but it’s just such a colossal bummer.
I don't understand how JJ can call the ending satisfying and hopeful. All Skywalkers are dead and Palpatine won. Ben was targeted by Palpatine/Snoke and when he finally frees himself from his influence he doesn't deserve to live? Rey, who started alone and looking for a family, ends up alone. Even with Ben dead, why does she need to end up alone when she still has friends? Why doesn't she stay with Finn or Chewie? This ending sounds really depressing No


@OrionStars wrote:Kylo comic is out. Kylo didn't burn the temple, he had to defend himself because the other students coudn't hold back their excitement of killing Kylo, then he seeked refugee at Snoke's place and you can feel the  pedophile vibe of Snoke and Kylo's relationship.

Yikes! Why the hell are they giving us this important part of Ben's story in a comic?! It should have been in the movies. And knowing this part of the story makes the treatment of Ben's character in TROS even worse Crying or Very sad
@Forsythia

Did JJ kind of forget about her looking at that old lady in TFA and not wanting to end up like her?

Omg this is literally GoT but at least Jon kind of knew he wanted to go back to the NW..
@Gemini

OMG, you're right!  I completely forgot about that scene from TFA!  And it seems that they forgot about it, too, since they had Rey end up alone on a desert planet. Sad  How could they do this? Sad
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