[controversial] did ben have to die?

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Post by nickandnora on Sun 22 Dec - 8:24

@motherofpearl1 wrote:And it continues
https://medium.com/@nettlefish/the-rise-of-skywalker-memorabilia-without-memory-a-misunderstanding-of-hope-8b4976f41df1

I honestly think the furore over this film is going to make GoT look like a tiddler pond beside the Pacific.
@motherofpearl1

It's more that in an attempt to start fresh after this, they may have unintentionally ruined the foundation of their brand and that's the bad business decision here. If suddenly the entire audience doesn't TRUST anything with the name on it, then what good is it? CAN you actually rebuild from that? In two years? I can't say for sure and I think the legs of this film will tell the full story. It's just bizarre.

I mean I'm seeing tweets where the story group (I think Matt) is like, "Hey guys, buy the visual guide" and some of the responses are like "what's the point?" And I know answers like that are just because the wounds are fresh, but is that an attitude that's going to get better or worse with time and discourse?

"Hey guys, watch The Mandelorian!"
"Why, so you can kill the baby?"

The real danger here is they've bred a deeper sense of cynicism with their product that didn't exist even with The Last Jedi backlash. This has the potential to be far more insidious.

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 22 Dec - 8:36

The GOT backlash was in huge part just another outcry of toxic fans making petitions and screaming on social media. The finale was absolutely poorly received by audiences and critics, but I don't think it had exactly the same incredibly problematic framework this does. TROS is an affront against artistic vision, ingenuity and, well, the franchise it's meant to be closing and paying homage to. I'm never going to get over my shock in the theater as I began to realize that it really was going to be a check-list intended to apologize to racist, misogynistic fans who harassed actors and writers. This is the truly unacceptable thing about TROS.

I am someone who is struggling to (and will likely never be capable of) taking the film in isolation from the real world circumstances through which it came to be. The cruel treatment of Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran, the ridiculous complaints about the previous film from the dumbest fans. I keep being told that the movie feels as though it was written to please those who thought their "fan theories" were better than TLJ by friends and acquaintances (even the one guy who claimed to like TROS) and yes, that's absolutely true. Nobody can tell me Chris Terrio and Abrams didn't know exactly what they were doing when they wrote the movie - I would really love to know who I can despise. Was it all them or was it really more corporate meddling? Both? All of the above?

It's very possible that I will never be able to see this movie on its own terms just as I will never not see Rose Tico as Kelly Marie Tran. They're the same in my eyes, and the racist sidelining of the character to make the worst fans happy reads as a similar move against the actress (who kept her chin up through all of it). There are countless things in this film that serve the same purpose toward Rian Johnson, but Kelly had to actively be part of this shitshow, while Rian was able to quietly back out and refrain from commenting on social media. I'm sure he'll eventually be asked about TROS because so much of the controversy surrounding it relates to his movie. That's one of the saddest things about TROS, actually. It's all still about the movie that Rian Johnson made. TROS has so much "nothingness" (and meanspiritedness) at play that the only thing people can do is comment on how it relates to the much better prequel.
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Post by SanghaRen on Sun 22 Dec - 8:39

@motherofpearl1 wrote:And it continues
https://medium.com/@nettlefish/the-rise-of-skywalker-memorabilia-without-memory-a-misunderstanding-of-hope-8b4976f41df1

I honestly think the furore over this film is going to make GoT look like a tiddler pond beside the Pacific.
@motherofpearl1

Sadly, I can only concur with everything in this article. The more I think about it, the emptier I feel.

That scene where Maz gives the medal to Chewie made me cringe. It is indeed devoid of any sense except winking at the old dudebros “See, guys, he got the medal he never asked for after all.” Whatever. Next!
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Post by fuhry on Sun 22 Dec - 9:15

Did Ben have to die? No, he didn't.

I do think that after being the big FO bad guy and killing beloved Han, and injuring Finn, his full redemption was a bit of a problem, particularly for Finn, Poe, and the rest of the Resistance. In order to redeem himself for Finn and Poe, Ben would have had to do some seriously important work on their behalf. But the first half of the this movie had him being an evil bad*** for himself and the First Order, and only Rey witnessed his redemption. So I understand why having him die was easier.

However, given that they ended the movie with Rey alone on Tatooine, without Finn and Poe, they absolutely could have had Ben there.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 9:25

@MaddieDove wrote:Does anybody think the journalists and dissatisfied LF people are in some kind of communication, ensuring that the message against a complete lack of artistic integrity of a director bowing to corporate demands is heard loudly?

My daughter tried to calm me when I fretted over the possibility of Ben dying that it would be against the rules of basic good storytelling to abandon the optimistic story of his redemption and survival in the last moment. Like, they're not that stupid.

However, putting the Imperial march over the credits is the next level of sinister.
I walked out before the end credits..... can't believe they did that.
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 22 Dec - 9:35

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The GOT backlash was in huge part just another outcry of toxic fans making petitions and screaming on social media. The finale was absolutely poorly received by audiences and critics, but I don't think it had exactly the same incredibly problematic framework this does. TROS is an affront against artistic vision, ingenuity and, well, the franchise it's meant to be closing and paying homage to. I'm never going to get over my shock in the theater as I began to realize that it really was going to be a check-list intended to apologize to racist, misogynistic fans who harassed actors and writers. This is the truly unacceptable thing about TROS.

I am someone who is struggling to (and will likely never be capable of) taking the film in isolation from the real world circumstances through which it came to be. The cruel treatment of Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran, the ridiculous complaints about the previous film from the dumbest fans. I keep being told that the movie feels as though it was written to please those who thought their "fan theories" were better than TLJ by friends and acquaintances (even the one guy who claimed to like TROS) and yes, that's absolutely true. Nobody can tell me Chris Terrio and Abrams didn't know exactly what they were doing when they wrote the movie - I would really love to know who I can despise. Was it all them or was it really more corporate meddling? Both? All of the above?

It's very possible that I will never be able to see this movie on its own terms just as I will never not see Rose Tico as Kelly Marie Tran. They're the same in my eyes, and the racist sidelining of the character to make the worst fans happy reads as a similar move against the actress (who kept her chin up through all of it). There are countless things in this film that serve the same purpose toward Rian Johnson, but Kelly had to actively be part of this shitshow, while Rian was able to quietly back out and refrain from commenting on social media. I'm sure he'll eventually be asked about TROS because so much of the controversy surrounding it relates to his movie. That's one of the saddest things about TROS, actually. It's all still about the movie that Rian Johnson made. TROS has so much "nothingness" (and meanspiritedness) at play that the only thing people can do is comment on how it relates to the much better prequel.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I think this is a really good way to put it. On it's own, it's a kind of bad, but sort of entertaining at times film with some redeeming moments (like Reylo, obviously) but then when you put it in the bigger context of the franchise and the history behind the franchise leading up until now, it really commits a series of atrocities on all levels.

My biggest issue that I'm struggling with currently is who was responsible for certain decisions and why. I actually don't know if it's J.J. and Terrio who are, or if they are just going to be the fall-guys who are the face of it. Not saying the original script was good, but who told them to edit it to oblivion and why? If there was a different original ending evident in April, who demanded that it be changed and why (and when... summer I guess?) It's this aspect to me that I didn't expect to be thinking about or worrying about now when it's all over and it sucks, on top of all the extraneous stuff that you are also referring to.

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Post by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 9:52

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MaddieDove wrote:Does anybody think the journalists and dissatisfied LF people are in some kind of communication, ensuring that the message against a complete lack of artistic integrity of a director bowing to corporate demands is heard loudly?

My daughter tried to calm me when I fretted over the possibility of Ben dying that it would be against the rules of basic good storytelling to abandon the optimistic story of his redemption and survival in the last moment. Like, they're not that stupid.

However, putting the Imperial march over the credits is the next level of sinister.
I walked out before the end credits..... can't believe they did that.
@motherofpearl1

I also walked out before the credits could roll. It was just STAR WARS and that was it, I was out of there.

Do they play the imperial March straight away?
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 10:04

Someone on Tumblr mentioned the Dark Crystal and Jen saving Kira.
Interesting parallels there. Also the names....
Jen/Ben and Rey's original name was Kira.
Only in The Dark Crystal Jen survives. And it was actually a good film.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 22 Dec - 10:08

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The GOT backlash was in huge part just another outcry of toxic fans making petitions and screaming on social media. The finale was absolutely poorly received by audiences and critics, but I don't think it had exactly the same incredibly problematic framework this does. TROS is an affront against artistic vision, ingenuity and, well, the franchise it's meant to be closing and paying homage to. I'm never going to get over my shock in the theater as I began to realize that it really was going to be a check-list intended to apologize to racist, misogynistic fans who harassed actors and writers. This is the truly unacceptable thing about TROS.

I am someone who is struggling to (and will likely never be capable of) taking the film in isolation from the real world circumstances through which it came to be. The cruel treatment of Rian Johnson and Kelly Marie Tran, the ridiculous complaints about the previous film from the dumbest fans. I keep being told that the movie feels as though it was written to please those who thought their "fan theories" were better than TLJ by friends and acquaintances (even the one guy who claimed to like TROS) and yes, that's absolutely true. Nobody can tell me Chris Terrio and Abrams didn't know exactly what they were doing when they wrote the movie - I would really love to know who I can despise. Was it all them or was it really more corporate meddling? Both? All of the above?

It's very possible that I will never be able to see this movie on its own terms just as I will never not see Rose Tico as Kelly Marie Tran. They're the same in my eyes, and the racist sidelining of the character to make the worst fans happy reads as a similar move against the actress (who kept her chin up through all of it). There are countless things in this film that serve the same purpose toward Rian Johnson, but Kelly had to actively be part of this shitshow, while Rian was able to quietly back out and refrain from commenting on social media. I'm sure he'll eventually be asked about TROS because so much of the controversy surrounding it relates to his movie. That's one of the saddest things about TROS, actually. It's all still about the movie that Rian Johnson made. TROS has so much "nothingness" (and meanspiritedness) at play that the only thing people can do is comment on how it relates to the much better prequel.
@FrolickingFizzgig

From my perspective, the movie was so bad, that even Ben alive couldn't save it (I would feel better, for sure, but it wouldn't make the movie a good one). His death was sad and terrible and really a bad message (I had fanboys by my side commenting, "oh, he shouldn't die"). Anyway, the whole thing with Rose | Kelly Marie Tran was even worst, it's as if they told me, "See, FO can be beaten in movies, but in real life, FO always win". I left the cinema feeling very defeated.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 10:11

So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.


Last edited by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 10:15; edited 1 time in total
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 10:12

Agree with you 100% but at least if he'd lived we would have left the cinema smiling. A lot of people criticised Guardians of the.Galaxy 2 not a patch on the original, but at least it wasn't depressing.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 10:21

@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.

I'm a huge fan of TLJ but I'm frankly fed up of this "if you like/don't like what I like/don't like there's something wrong with you" attitude. It reminds me of the playground where you had to follow the crowd, so to speak, or you were weird.

Not long ago I happened to mention I loved the first two films on YouTube and someone called me brainless.

The thing is with TROS, it isn't just a film that might not be to everyone's taste, its a genuinely bad film. There are films I cannot stand but I still admire the acting and script. But there were parts where I was glad the cinema was dark because I was squirming in embarrassment.

Scenes that should have been moving and inspiring were instead cornier than a field of barley. Only when Adam was on screen was there some gravitas.

I have never felt this way in a Star Wars film. The prequels had their faults, but at least they had a story.
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Post by SanghaRen on Sun 22 Dec - 10:23

@fuhry wrote:Did Ben have to die?  No, he didn't.

I do think that after being the big FO bad guy and killing beloved Han, and injuring Finn, his full redemption was a bit of a problem, particularly for Finn, Poe, and the rest of the Resistance.  In order to redeem himself for Finn and Poe, Ben would have had to do some seriously important work on their behalf.  But the first half of the this movie had him being an evil bad*** for himself and the First Order, and only Rey witnessed his redemption.  So I understand why having him die was easier.

However, given that they ended the movie with Rey alone on Tatooine, without Finn and Poe, they absolutely could have had Ben there.  
@fuhry

See, but that’s where the contradiction lies for me. If they thought his redemption was going to be a problem, then they shouldn’t even have Rey and him presented as basically soulmates and kiss. Even people who do not care about romances are bummed by this romance cut short in the final installment of a SW movie. Plus, it’s not like Rey seemed to care that much about Finn and Poe and the Resistance’s opinions. And the story could easily have him hide. One scene I also don’t get (so many of them) is that Finn did not even flinch when Rey tells him she had a vision of Ren on the throne with her. Didn’t that surprise him? Why would Rey think Ren wants her by her side? Why, Finn? Or does he already know something’s up? The movie does not even ponder on this. They just didn’t think most of the things through. It’s like a collage of ideas.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 10:25

They weret too busy rushing to get to thehe next action scene.
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Post by guardienne on Sun 22 Dec - 10:29

Hors sujet

can we stop with this bs. i'm not a fan of TLJ or what disney made of this trilogy, but it's nothing to do with the thread.

well, i mean, it's not the question i asked.

i have bee wondering whether morality played a part in killing him off, altho at the end of the movie i was pretty convinced he would live.

i think that overall neither choice makes a great story. ultimately they wasted 3 movies on a bunch of ship tease and an origin story. but it interests me nonetheless whether keeping him alive was just too monumental a task. it's a lot easier to kill him off and not relay any consequences but also, all of his atonement or whatever would have been relegated to a bunch of novels thanks to the s***ty planning of like whoever was in charge.

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Post by MaddieDove on Sun 22 Dec - 10:31

@Gemini wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@MaddieDove wrote:Does anybody think the journalists and dissatisfied LF people are in some kind of communication, ensuring that the message against a complete lack of artistic integrity of a director bowing to corporate demands is heard loudly?

My daughter tried to calm me when I fretted over the possibility of Ben dying that it would be against the rules of basic good storytelling to abandon the optimistic story of his redemption and survival in the last moment. Like, they're not that stupid.

However, putting the Imperial march over the credits is the next level of sinister.
I walked out before the end credits..... can't believe they did that.
@motherofpearl1

I also walked out before the credits could roll. It was just STAR WARS and that was it, I was out of there.

Do they play the imperial March straight away?
@Gemini
here someone made a list of themes used in credits:
https://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?/topic/31031-the-rise-of-skywalker-complete-score-as-heard-in-the-film-discussion-spoilers-allowed/
I noticed it as I was leaving the theater, so it was somewhere in the middle of credits.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 10:35

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.

I'm a huge fan of TLJ but I'm frankly fed up of this "if you like/don't like what I like/don't like there's something wrong with you" attitude. It reminds me of the playground where you had to follow the crowd, so to speak, or you were weird.

Not long ago I happened to mention I loved the first two films on YouTube and someone called me brainless.

The thing is with TROS, it isn't just a film that might not be to everyone's taste, its a genuinely bad film.  There are films I cannot stand but I still admire the acting and script. But there were parts where I was glad the cinema was dark because I was squirming in embarrassment.

Scenes that should have been moving and inspiring were instead cornier than a field of barley. Only when Adam was on screen was there some gravitas.

I have never felt this way in a Star Wars film. The prequels had their faults, but at least they had a story.
@motherofpearl1


Yeah, it's getting beyond ridiculous and is an echo chamber. I'm sorry. Like if someone likes or doesn't like something it doesn't make someone a moron or dumb  because they have a differing opinion to you. Nor is a persons opinion a fact. Dont blame people who didn't like TLJ as the reason for the crapyness of TROS. Scapegoating. Some people didnt like TLJ because it just felt out of place and didnt answer TFA in satisfying ways that they wanted.

Like, things don't go the way you want, dont attack people and call them dumb just because  they simply didnt like your preferred movie in the franchise and you didnt get what you wanted.

I prefer TFA, I have ranted multiple times about TROS, I'm mad at Disney, LF, RJ, JJ, KK for  not having an actual plan and leaving things open ended for the next person.

But people who preffered TLJ? It's not their fault TROS is bad. No way. Like what you want. I wouldn't dream of  calling TLJ fans who hate TFA and TROS the "dumbest fans"because they are not, they liked the story TLJ gave and JJ then spat on your deeply loved story. You have a right to be pissed off.

Loud BULLY minorities online who ultimately influence studios, who dictate where conversation of a story should be going and drowning out opposing views like Reylo being drowned out are the culprates, not some fans who are just disappointed in a movie and dont like something.
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Sun 22 Dec - 11:48

Like many have said here, no I don't think Ben had to die. He was young with full potential ahead of him. I couldn't picture him becoming best friends with the Resistance (although it would've been interesting to see him interact with Finn outside of a hostile setting), but it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have Ben go on his own journey of atonement helping people across the galaxy, reuniting with Rey later down the line.

As a slight side-note: After spending many years in various fandoms, I wonder if I have a more lenient view of fictional redemption arcs in comparison to the average fan. I've never been angered, offended, or completely against any character redeeming themselves and living. There are certainly redemption arcs I think could've been written with more nuance or depth, but I can't recall being against any character having a change of heart or morality.

In real life, redemption is complicated. Someone who has hurt others and committed terrible acts is not guaranteed to be genuine in their remorse. But fiction allows us to have an idealistic view of something so arduous to accept. In a story, you can get inside the character's head, see their pain, feel what they feel, and observe their conflict without hurting or duping yourself in the process. You can have the narrative signify to you: 'Yes, this character feels remorse for the horror they've inflicted, and they will change for the better.'

I'm also of the belief that redemption arcs are at their best when they take some risks. In my opinion, people seem more willing to accept a redemption if the character dies, or hasn't done anything controversial to unsettle the audience or the good and heroic characters in-universe. Perhaps from the point-of-view of the Western/American crowd, Kylo "had" to die for killing a beloved and memorable character like Han. On the other hand, Han's death made me more interested in Kylo's redemption because it seemed gutsy and different. Instead of having a repeat of Vader—the bad guy redeeming himself in one dramatic, self-sacrificial moment and dying for a loved one—I assumed Kylo's redemption would be more gradual and unique.

TFA and TLJ portrayed Kylo as someone who wants to be like Vader, but truly isn't. I thought this meant Kylo would have a different fate from Vader, especially since he was depicted as far more morally conflicted than Vader ever was. It would've been fascinating to have a young, powerful, and vulnerable Darksider return to the Light—and survive.

Anyways, to sum up my rambling: maybe to some, Kylo's death was necessary as a form of concrete comeuppance, but I believe the ST would've been bolder and more special if Kylo had lived. Though I'm very biased, as anyone can tell. Razz
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 22 Dec - 11:54

@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.
@Gemini
You know I was talking about the toxic fans who harassed SW social media and the director and actors. I really have no clue how you could see what I said as me referencing everybody who dislikes anything about TLJ.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 12:00

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.
@Gemini
You know I was talking about the toxic fans who harassed SW social media and the director and actors. I really have no clue how you could see what I said as me referencing everybody who dislikes anything about TLJ.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Because you said people who disliked TLJ are the dumbest fans.

Some people on here do not like TLJ for various reasons, are naturally going to be affronted by the suggestion that they are dumb.

Several people who didnt like TLJ have stopped posting on the board. I've seen it happen
I'm guessing its because of the constant squashing of opposing opinion and suggestions that these people dumb or and are made to feel unwelcome.


It makes people feel outcasted and it becomes an echo chamber of."TLJ great" and no actual reasonable opposing opinion is discussed or brought to the table.
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[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 3 Empty Re: [controversial] did ben have to die?

Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 22 Dec - 12:04

@Gemini wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.
@Gemini
You know I was talking about the toxic fans who harassed SW social media and the director and actors. I really have no clue how you could see what I said as me referencing everybody who dislikes anything about TLJ.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Because you said people who disliked TLJ are the dumbest fans.

Some people on here do not like TLJ for various reasons, are naturally going to be affronted by the suggestion that they are dumb.

Several people who didnt like TLJ have stopped posting on the board. I've seen it happen
I'm guessing its because of the constant squashing of opposing opinion and suggestions that these people dumb or and are made to feel unwelcome.


It makes people feel outcasted and it becomes an echo chamber of."TLJ great" and no actual reasonable opposing opinion is discussed or brought to the table.
@Gemini
My entire post was about toxic fans. I was using "didn't like TLJ" as a connection to their complaints, yes, but it was not a comment about everyone who didn't like the film. Just give it a rest already with this ridiculous narrative that people aren't allowed to dislike TLJ. It's BS. You can like and dislike whatever film you want. I don't care. Nobody cares.

What I do care about is that the mature writer who believed in the choices he made and was honourable at every step (even if someone didn't like those choices) and the mature actress who had to hold her head high while knowing that she had been thrown under a bus (even if someone didn't care for Rose) are treated with the basic human respect they deserve. It's not like the studio is going to do that, so I will.
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[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 3 Empty Re: [controversial] did ben have to die?

Post by Atenais on Sun 22 Dec - 12:20

@toolonelytosleep wrote:Like many have said here, no I don't think Ben had to die. He was young with full potential ahead of him. I couldn't picture him becoming best friends with the Resistance (although it would've been interesting to see him interact with Finn outside of a hostile setting), but it wouldn't have been unreasonable to have Ben go on his own journey of atonement helping people across the galaxy, reuniting with Rey later down the line.

As a slight side-note: After spending many years in various fandoms, I wonder if I have a more lenient view of fictional redemption arcs in comparison to the average fan. I've never been angered, offended, or completely against any character redeeming themselves and living. There are certainly redemption arcs I think could've been written with more nuance or depth, but I can't recall being against any character having a change of heart or morality.

In real life, redemption is complicated. Someone who has hurt others and committed terrible acts is not guaranteed to be genuine in their remorse. But fiction allows us to have an idealistic view of something so arduous to accept. In a story, you can get inside the character's head, see their pain, feel what they feel, and observe their conflict without hurting or duping yourself in the process. You can have the narrative signify to you: 'Yes, this character feels remorse for the horror they've inflicted, and they will change for the better.'

I'm also of the belief that redemption arcs are at their best when they take some risks. In my opinion, people seem more willing to accept a redemption if the character dies, or hasn't done anything controversial to unsettle the audience or the good and heroic characters in-universe. Perhaps from the point-of-view of the Western/American crowd, Kylo "had" to die for killing a beloved and memorable character like Han. On the other hand, Han's death made me more interested in Kylo's redemption because it seemed gutsy and different. Instead of having a repeat of Vader—the bad guy redeeming himself in one dramatic, self-sacrificial moment and dying for a loved one—I assumed Kylo's redemption would be more gradual and unique.

TFA and TLJ portrayed Kylo as someone who wants to be like Vader, but truly isn't. I thought this meant Kylo would have a different fate from Vader, especially since he was depicted as far more morally conflicted than Vader ever was. It would've been fascinating to have a young, powerful, and vulnerable Darksider return to the Light—and survive.

Anyways, to sum up my rambling: maybe to some, Kylo's death was necessary as a form of concrete comeuppance, but I believe the ST would've been bolder and more special if Kylo had lived. Though I'm very biased, as anyone can tell. Razz
@toolonelytosleep

Oh, I enjoyed reading your comment, you have an unique way to think. I grown up reading/watching mangas and animes, and I feel that East deals with villains in a very different way, redemption arcs aren't rare cases, so I'm very used to villains (more as anti-heroes) redeeming themselves and fighting beside the good guys.

I'm not a religious person, TBH, I'm agnostic, but I feel that I'm more prone to forgiveness than lots of very religious people I know. Sometimes looks they're very revengeful, which I find very weird.
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Post by Gemini on Sun 22 Dec - 12:23

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great  is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.
@Gemini
You know I was talking about the toxic fans who harassed SW social media and the director and actors. I really have no clue how you could see what I said as me referencing everybody who dislikes anything about TLJ.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Because you said people who disliked TLJ are the dumbest fans.

Some people on here do not like TLJ for various reasons, are  naturally going to be affronted by  the suggestion that they are dumb.

Several people who didnt like TLJ have stopped posting on the  board. I've seen it happen
I'm guessing its because of the constant squashing of opposing opinion and suggestions that these people dumb or and are made to feel unwelcome.


It makes people feel outcasted and it becomes an echo chamber of."TLJ great" and  no actual reasonable opposing opinion is discussed or brought to the table.
@Gemini
My entire post was about toxic fans. I was using "didn't like TLJ" as a connection to their complaints, yes, but it was not a comment about everyone who didn't like the film. Just give it a rest already with this ridiculous narrative that people aren't allowed to dislike TLJ. It's BS. You can like and dislike whatever film you want. I don't care. Nobody cares.

What I do care about is that the mature writer who believed in the choices he made and was honourable at every step (even if someone didn't like those choices) and the mature actress who had to hold her head high while knowing that she had been thrown under a bus (even if someone didn't care for Rose) are treated with the basic human respect they deserve. It's not like the studio is going to do that, so I will.
@FrolickingFizzgig

In the last few days I have genuinely felt that I cant discuss how I feel RJs vision also contributed to problems with the ST feeling mismatched. TLJ did to TFA what TROS has done to TLJ I  terms of messing with a coherent tale. Everything some people loved with it was tossed in the trash.

The praising RJ (which is cool) and constant ripping into directors and films some may like, I felt it was pretty unbalanced and  decided to discuss how I felt RJs TLJ was partially responsible for the disjointed trilogy, you  bit my head off and many agreed with you telling me to essentially shut up about RJs contribution possibly helping to disrupt.the trilogy and that it was "nonsense"

If you genuinely were not calling people who disliked elements  TLJ dumb then  , ok.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 22 Dec - 12:34

@Gemini wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Gemini wrote:So now people who didn't like The Last Jedi are the "dumbest fans"...

Wow

Gotta love the shade, gotta love the godlike assumption that because YOU think TLJ is the "best one" everyone else who doesnt think it's great  is just a moron? Get over yourself.

This is getting beyond projecting.
@Gemini
You know I was talking about the toxic fans who harassed SW social media and the director and actors. I really have no clue how you could see what I said as me referencing everybody who dislikes anything about TLJ.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Because you said people who disliked TLJ are the dumbest fans.

Some people on here do not like TLJ for various reasons, are  naturally going to be affronted by  the suggestion that they are dumb.

Several people who didnt like TLJ have stopped posting on the  board. I've seen it happen
I'm guessing its because of the constant squashing of opposing opinion and suggestions that these people dumb or and are made to feel unwelcome.


It makes people feel outcasted and it becomes an echo chamber of."TLJ great" and  no actual reasonable opposing opinion is discussed or brought to the table.
@Gemini
My entire post was about toxic fans. I was using "didn't like TLJ" as a connection to their complaints, yes, but it was not a comment about everyone who didn't like the film. Just give it a rest already with this ridiculous narrative that people aren't allowed to dislike TLJ. It's BS. You can like and dislike whatever film you want. I don't care. Nobody cares.

What I do care about is that the mature writer who believed in the choices he made and was honourable at every step (even if someone didn't like those choices) and the mature actress who had to hold her head high while knowing that she had been thrown under a bus (even if someone didn't care for Rose) are treated with the basic human respect they deserve. It's not like the studio is going to do that, so I will.
@FrolickingFizzgig

In the last few days I have genuinely felt that I cant discuss how I feel RJs vision also contributed to problems with the ST feeling mismatched. TLJ did to TFA what TROS has done to TLJ I  terms of messing with a coherent tale. Everything some people loved with it was tossed in the trash.

The praising RJ (which is cool) and constant ripping into directors and films some may like, I felt it was pretty unbalanced and  decided to discuss how I felt RJs TLJ was partially responsible for the disjointed trilogy, you  bit my head off and many agreed with you telling me to essentially shut up about RJs contribution possibly helping to disrupt.the trilogy and that it was "nonsense"

If you genuinely were not calling people who disliked elements  TLJ dumb then  , ok.
@Gemini

I don't feel as people are preventing people to talk about their feelings here. We're pretty much doing it right now. I believe you have your reasons to dislike TLJ, because it could have take the path you liked in TFA and it didn't, and it's ok for your to talk about it (you've being talking about it a lot actually).

Nobody is dumb to like this or that movie, movies are a very personal experience, we can even enjoy a movie even knowing that that movie is not that good, artistically talking.

People are probably leaving the forum because they're tired, because they're enjoyed TROS a lot, because they're disappointed, because they're starting to move on, etc, etc. This place was always the place where we can openly talk.

It's clear that some people here aren't in the same page, but that's ok, differences always enrich the talk. Lets not make it personal. ^^
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 22 Dec - 12:37

I wonder how long it takes before Disney realise that more people are downloading Kylo's scenes than going to the cinema?😸
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