[controversial] did ben have to die?

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 22 Dec 2019, 1:50 pm

TLJ is not responsible for anything that went astray in TROS. TROS is a 80% a standalone movie. TROS takes zero elements of TLJ's story beyond Rey and Kylo being hot for each other, and it's reframed as the dumbest elements of Romeo and Juliet with "house families" that never existed. It's made incredibly shallow outside of the acting and the movie handwaves it by pretending all of Rey and Kylo's development together happened in TLJ and basing the foundation of their connection not on anything human, but on lineage.

@Gemini
I am not trying to make you feel as though your opinions are not valid, but I'm also not going to stop talking about how I feel because a few people want to push a false narrative. In the past 24 hours JJ has made it clear that he was not the brains behind the best parts of TFA (and that's evident in TROS). When Kasdan was writing the interrogation scene JJ was clearly penning that awful sequence where Finn, a child soldier, shoots up other child soldiers alongside his new friend Poe.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 22 Dec 2019, 1:55 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I wonder how long it takes before Disney realise that more people are downloading Kylo's scenes than going to the cinema?😸
@motherofpearl1

Oh my, I'm doing that! Nice to know I'm not alone. XD
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Sun 22 Dec 2019, 2:02 pm

@Atenais wrote:
Oh, I enjoyed reading your comment, you have an unique way to think. I grown up reading/watching mangas and animes, and I feel that East deals with villains in a very different way, redemption arcs aren't rare cases, so I'm very used to villains (more as anti-heroes) redeeming themselves and fighting beside the good guys.

I'm not a religious person, TBH, I'm agnostic, but I feel that I'm more prone to forgiveness than lots of very religious people I know. Sometimes looks they're very revengeful, which I find very weird.
@Atenais

Thank you! I enjoy reading your comments too. I'm agnostic as well, but I think it's interesting to look at redemption, atonement, and forgiveness from both spiritual and practical standpoints.

I also think redemption and forgiveness are separate from one another, although they can (and often do) intertwine. A character can redeem themselves and not be forgiven by every person they've harmed. Luke forgave Vader, but Leia did not. Even so, it didn't negate Vader's redemption.

To me, the the simplest definition of redemption is a person feeling remorse for the wrongful things they've done and having a change of heart and/or morality. Forgiveness is how other characters choose to respond to the person's wrongdoings. Atonement is a person taking action to right one's wrongs, fixing their mistakes as best as they can.

I've read from other Reylo shippers how different Eastern storytelling approaches the topics of redemption/forgiveness/atonement from the Western world. Here in the US, I think there's a strong emphasis on punishment. For a character's redemption to be considered acceptable, they must suffer as much as possible, preferably on a physical and permanent level. Of course, this is a generalization and not every American believes in this, but it can partly explain why there was such a strong reaction of "Kylo must die!" after what he did to Han.

Killing Kylo off was going along the grain, not against it. This is one of the many reasons why I wanted Kylo to live; it would've been more courageous and noteworthy to keep such a complex and morally conflicted character alive. It also would've been more possible to do so in a fantastical, larger-than-life space opera/fairy tale. Star Wars isn't meant to be a gritty and realistic story, which makes exploring redemption all the more freeing and not limited to the character dying in the end—or, so I had thought, since TROS proved me wrong. Crying or Very sad
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Post by Saracene on Sun 22 Dec 2019, 4:04 pm

It warms my heart to see the “ewww Reylo” fanboys still wishing that Rey and Ben got together at the end, because it’s still a better story than what they got Twisted Evil
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Post by LadyHa on Sun 22 Dec 2019, 4:27 pm

I've seen a few thought provoking posts on Twitter about an idea that giving your life in heroic sacrifice as a form of redemption is a deeply held value for many men. Both in their fiction and in real life. This thread links to a few heartbreaking posts about it: https://twitter.com/northgalis/status/1208819294743584768

Do women, on the other hand, gravitate more towards stories that involve active atonement and life? https://twitter.com/thegoblincity/status/1208053776332050435 I hate to stereotype, but can't help but ponder it.

@toolonelytosleep wrote:

To me, the the simplest definition of redemption is a person feeling remorse for the wrongful things they've done and having a change of heart and/or morality. Forgiveness is how other characters choose to respond to the person's wrongdoings. Atonement is a person taking action to right one's wrongs, fixing their mistakes as best as they can.

I've read from other Reylo shippers how different Eastern storytelling approaches the topics of redemption/forgiveness/atonement from the Western world. Here in the US, I think there's a strong emphasis on punishment. For a character's redemption to be considered acceptable, they must suffer as much as possible, preferably on a physical and permanent level. Of course, this is a generalization and not every American believes in this, but it can partly explain why there was such a strong reaction of "Kylo must die!" after what he did to Han.


I recently finished a Jane Eyre binge where I watched 5 different film or TV versions of the story. Jane and Rochester have seemingly unsurmountable barriers, but they keep living and suffering and trying... Eventually they reach a place where they can be together. It's a pretty satisfying story! I even got my (male) partner to watch a few versions with me. He is usually uninterested in discussing stories about romance, but got into it as we talked a lot about it - Rochester's fate and if his suffering was necessary or what could have gone differently. Jane's journey and how brave she was to hold out. Good stuff.

So, for me, Ben absolutely did not have to die. I would be much more interested in seeing his character grapple with life after release from the dark magic he was tricked by and enslaved to. And how the other characters struggled with forgiveness and understanding.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 23 Dec 2019, 12:14 am

Unfortunately that wouldn't have satisfied the idiots who considered Reylo a toxic abusive relationship.

What's truly ironic is which was the abuser?
Kylo never hurt Rey.
When he probed her mind he was gentle, unlike with Poe.
He threw her against a tree. She was about to shoot him. He could have Force choked her. Instead he stunned her.

Rey meanwhile....
Cut his face and shoulder open, reached for a weapon when he was holding out his hand, and stabbed him in the stomach while hecwas unarmed.

If anyone has the traits of a violent abuser, it's their precious little Mary Rey Sue.
Yet she gets all the glory because Kathleen Kennedy believes all women are perfect..
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Post by Atenais on Mon 23 Dec 2019, 9:12 am

Looks like our society sees redemption as vengeance, I would like to see more movies about atonement.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Mon 23 Dec 2019, 10:15 am

@Atenais wrote:Looks like our society sees redemption as vengeance, I would like to see more movies about atonement.
@Atenais
I actually think this is one thing take I don't agree with, and it's because the movie (surprisingly and for once) does an exceptional job showcasing that Ben's sacrifice is not a punishment at all. Vader saved his son through an act of violence, and I really like the subversion of Ben Solo actually being absent for the final fight so he doesn't have to be involved in the death of Palpatine and can provide all his support in an emotional and spiritual way. This was important for me to see and it makes Ben's redemption stand out much more when one takes a minute to think about sacrifice in the SW franchise. Ben does something extraordinary when he brings Rey back from the dead, and he's happier with that selfless decision than he is going on to atone. Of course, if someone is hurt in the real world we don't have the opportunity to swap places with them, but in SW this is an option and one I feel means something.

Now, what I'm unhappy with his Ben's absence in the ending shots. It's bizarre and confusing because he disappeared with his mother, who is a Force Ghost alongside Luke. They just didn't want to include him because it would have confused their message of Rey burying the twins where their father was born and because they wanted to leave Ben's status a bit up in the air for future storytelling. We'll definitely see Ben again one way or another, if only as support to other characters and Rey from within the Force. Their ending really isn't goodbye.
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Post by Atenais on Mon 23 Dec 2019, 10:35 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@Atenais wrote:Looks like our society sees redemption as vengeance, I would like to see more movies about atonement.
@Atenais
I actually think this is one thing take I don't agree with, and it's because the movie (surprisingly and for once) does an exceptional job showcasing that Ben's sacrifice is not a punishment at all. Vader saved his son through an act of violence, and I really like the subversion of Ben Solo actually being absent for the final fight so he doesn't have to be involved in the death of Palpatine and can provide all his support in an emotional and spiritual way. This was important for me to see and it makes Ben's redemption stand out much more when one takes a minute to think about sacrifice in the SW franchise. Ben does something extraordinary when he brings Rey back from the dead, and he's happier with that selfless decision than he is going on to atone. Of course, if someone is hurt in the real world we don't have the opportunity to swap places with them, but in SW this is an option and one I feel means something.

Now, what I'm unhappy with his Ben's absence in the ending shots. It's bizarre and confusing because he disappeared with his mother, who is a Force Ghost alongside Luke. They just didn't want to include him because it would have confused their message of Rey burying the twins where their father was born and because they wanted to leave Ben's status a bit up in the air for future storytelling. We'll definitely see Ben again one way or another, if only as support to other characters and Rey from within the Force. Their ending really isn't goodbye.

I'm not talking about the movie, but about how people rejoiced his death, like, "see, this is what you deserve". I'm talking about society and how 'second chances' work better in movies than in real life.
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Post by Froggy on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 6:16 am

Exactly. And the fact that they had so many "fake" deaths but then Ben's turned out to be real was just like an extremely cruel twist. Sad I am so bitter about this movie on so many levels. Mad
@Kyla Ren

Yeah! That makes the situation even worse.
Not only several characters seem to die just to come back 5 minutes later without a scratch, but Ben himself almost dies three times before dying for real Laughing This is total madness.

That was really cruel, I went unspoiled so I really thought "ok we're done killing him, he had almost several times so now nothing could possibly happen...." ... Haan

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 8:30 am

The Last Jedi was an abomination of a movie and sunk more Star Wars lore than TROS ever can..

RJ is not some literary genius.. Looper is a poorly written and conceived movie, Knives Out is only mildly passable.. both movies rely on subversion of the genre both Sci Fi and Mystery to make it different and cool..

Both RJ & JJ are one trick ponies subversion and mystery box..

But I will tell you what JJ has over RJ.. the ability to make an entertaining box office spectacle


Now.. the thing about the dyad being Sith prophecy... shows me why Kylo had to die

Does anyone believe that Rey Palpy and Ben Solo were going to live happily ever after on Tatooine, if Han and Leia never got a happily ever after?

No.. no no...

I have not seen the movie yet.. but Rey is showing her true colors in the clips I have seen.. I would not trust this woman as far as I could throw her
And Ben Skywalker Organa Solo is too good for her.. there I said it..


I don't ship it anymore..
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Post by Let The Past Die on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 11:44 am

I feel the same after my second viewing, as I did after the first.

For me Ben shouldn't have died, it was more painful seeing him die the second time.

It felt like we only saw a minute or two of Ben, but in those couple of minutes he was his father's son, there was so much life in him, so much potential.

He needs Rey, she needs him. Simples.

A thought struck me about Rey's future, Kenobi was on his own  watching over Luke at the end of his life. Yoda had exiled himself at the end of his as did Luke. It sort of seems sad, these Jedi masters on their own. All the more reason for Rey to not be on her own without Ben, give them a full filling life together.
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Post by Gemini on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 3:28 pm

@Let The Past Die wrote:I feel the same after my second viewing, as I did after the first.

For me Ben shouldn't have died, it was more painful seeing him die the second time.

It felt like we only saw a minute or two of Ben, but in those couple of minutes he was his father's son, there was so much life in him, so much potential.

He needs Rey, she needs him. Simples.

A thought struck me about Rey's future, Kenobi was on his own  watching over Luke at the end of his life. Yoda had exiled himself at the end of his as did Luke. It sort of seems sad, these Jedi masters on their own. All the more reason for Rey to not be on her own without Ben, give them a full filling life together.
@Let The Past Die

Obi was on his own until he came out of solitude to help his Skywalker rise to greatness.

She could have been watching him from afar as he healed Sad

She did this in TFA....gah!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 5:28 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:The Last Jedi was an abomination of a movie and sunk more Star Wars lore than TROS ever can..

RJ is not some literary genius.. Looper is a poorly written and conceived movie, Knives Out is only mildly passable.. both movies rely on subversion of the genre both Sci Fi and Mystery to make it different and cool..

Both RJ & JJ are one trick ponies subversion and mystery box..

But I will tell you what JJ has over RJ.. the ability to make an entertaining box office spectacle


Now.. the thing about the dyad being Sith prophecy... shows me why Kylo had to die

Does anyone believe that Rey Palpy and Ben Solo were going to live happily ever after on Tatooine, if Han and Leia never got a happily ever after?

No.. no no...

I have not seen the movie yet.. but Rey is showing her true colors in the clips I have seen.. I would not trust this woman as far as I could throw her
And Ben Skywalker Organa Solo is too good for her.. there I said it..


I don't ship it anymore..

And there's the rub.
In their desperate desire to turn Rey from a flesh and blood character into a saintly icon, complete with pure white get up and permanent virginity they have made her completely unlikeable and ultimately not someone you can relate to, let alone to be like.
They destroyed Ben Solo. But they've also destroyed Rey.
Whoever dead responsible for this disaster ought to be made to watch the finished product repeatedly until they actually realise what a dog's dinner they've made of the greatest ever space fantasy saga?
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 6:58 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:The Last Jedi was an abomination of a movie and sunk more Star Wars lore than TROS ever can..

RJ is not some literary genius.. Looper is a poorly written and conceived movie, Knives Out is only mildly passable.. both movies rely on subversion of the genre both Sci Fi and Mystery to make it different and cool..

Both RJ & JJ are one trick ponies subversion and mystery box..

But I will tell you what JJ has over RJ.. the ability to make an entertaining box office spectacle


Now.. the thing about the dyad being Sith prophecy... shows me why Kylo had to die

Does anyone believe that Rey Palpy and Ben Solo were going to live happily ever after on Tatooine, if Han and Leia never got a happily ever after?

No.. no no...

I have not seen the movie yet.. but Rey is showing her true colors in the clips I have seen.. I would not trust this woman as far as I could throw her
And Ben Skywalker Organa Solo is too good for her.. there I said it..



I don't ship it anymore..
@spacebaby45678

I understand that you feel disappointed but I don't share that POV despite being rather a Kylo/Ben stan. As someone who has watched the movie, the only reproach I have against Rey is that she is impulsive and never really got called out for that. The only dialogue she has about that is when Finn tells her that it doesn't sound like her after she becomes obssessed with finding Palpatine to kill him. However, the movie shows pretty well how conflicted and scared about herself she gets once her lineage is revealed. The clips we see about her being particularly agressive are excerpts from the DS fight and honestly I can totally understand why she behaves that way during this specific moment. She truly has gone through a lot at that point: saw her parents get killed, learnt that it was Palpatine behind, then found out that she was actually the only descendant of the worst person in the galaxy.

But you can't understand why she attacks Kylo so angrily if you haven't seen how he interacts with her during the first half of the movie. On the surface, I can understand why some people call out the relationship for being abusive if you only put his behavior in the context of TROS. So saying that Rey is showing her true colors while Ben Solo is too good for her seems unbalanced. She is impulsive but the movie shows that she definitely has a good nature while genuinely struggling with anger issues: when she bumps into an agressive beast, her first reaction is to strike before healing it, which she does later with Kylo.

If you analyze his behavior with the bigger picture in mind, you get to understand why he behaves so cold toward her even if it's not explicit: he is bitter that she refused to take his hand the way she did it - calling the lightsaber by surprise - although he is aware that she wanted to take his hand. He spends the first half of the movie pushing her to her limits because he desperately wants to find out why she refused to take his hand and tries to convince her (and himself) that she wanted to take it because she was drawn to the DS. The climax of their tense interaction is right before the fight, when he pushes her to her limit to the point that all her frustration toward him must get out of her system. Although he definitely overpowers her in the fight, she strikes him by surprise while he gets distracted by Leia. Of course, Rey deserved to get called out for that but it was actually not really needed. Actions spoke louder than words in the end when she - with the saddest puppy's eyes possible - realized what was her mistake in TLJ, corrected it by healing him and finally droped the mask by confessing her feelings.
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Post by rey09 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 7:05 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:The Last Jedi was an abomination of a movie and sunk more Star Wars lore than TROS ever can..

RJ is not some literary genius.. Looper is a poorly written and conceived movie, Knives Out is only mildly passable.. both movies rely on subversion of the genre both Sci Fi and Mystery to make it different and cool..

Both RJ & JJ are one trick ponies subversion and mystery box..

But I will tell you what JJ has over RJ.. the ability to make an entertaining box office spectacle


Now.. the thing about the dyad being Sith prophecy... shows me why Kylo had to die

Does anyone believe that Rey Palpy and Ben Solo were going to live happily ever after on Tatooine, if Han and Leia never got a happily ever after?

No.. no no...

I have not seen the movie yet.. but Rey is showing her true colors in the clips I have seen.. I would not trust this woman as far as I could throw her
And Ben Skywalker Organa Solo is too good for her.. there I said it..


I don't ship it anymore..
@spacebaby45678

I'm genuinely curious, I never really got the whole distaste for TLJ. My only issue is I didn't like canto bight at all. Is seems most ppl were just upset over Luke characterization? Idr what you've said in the past.

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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 9:00 pm

I'm still a little sad that they chose this road but I can understand why they did it. It's a question of strategy. Do we realize how Adam managed to make Kylo Ren a likeable character despite the fact he killed Lor San Tekka in cold blood, ordered the mass killing of villagers and murdered his own father?  I do relate very much to that character because he was abused by a monster, rejected by his parents, betrayed by his uncle and trapped in a persona that wasn't him because he felt he could never come back. However, the movie shows pretty well how complex things are. When Palpatine tells him "I have been every voice you have ever word inside your head", that doesn't make him question the fundation of his own vision of the world. When Finn and Jannah discuss about the reason why they left the FO, they stress this idea that it was because of "an instinct, a feeling that it wasn't right to kill people", which Ben didn't really display. And as much as I understand why he is harsh toward Rey in TROS, that wasn't easy to reconcile making him darker at first and making the romance happen later, which they had the guts to do.

Had Ben survived, pretty sure that a good amount of people would have called out DLF for letting a guy like him getting his happy ending without any redemption path, like he never did anything wrong in his life. Of course that I feel sad that they chose the road of killing a young man instead of giving him his road for redemption. They could have had a scene where he feels that he doesn't deserve to live but Rey convinces him to stay alive so instead he willingly chooses to give up his power for the safety of the galaxy and his kids. However, I don't feel bitter about his "death" because I am persuaded that the Lion King vibes in the marketing and the movie wasn't for nothing. There are too many subtle elements that point to the direction that Rey is actually not alone at the end of the movie, its only too subtle for the GA to grasp. Whatever happened during the resurrection, they definitely had more in mind than having just Ben dying for good. Just look at Rey's face just after he vanishes. She doesn't look sad and even manages to smile a little as if she was realizing that "something wonderful has happened".
https://twitter.com/_BlackDiam0nd/status/1209442404820037633

Call me delusional but I think that Disney simply didn't have the guts to make it more obvious so they put subtle hints. I stand to my idea that Pasaana scene is a foreshadowing, which is what I thought from the moment I saw Rey looking at kids tenderly, then being so motherly with the alien girl, sad while answering she has no name, getting an ancestor (fertility?) bracelet and Kylo showing up right after plus all the scenes hinting at something happening: her getting in his room, him saying "I'll meet you there", her telling him "give it to me", him telling her "the only way you get to Exogol is with me", the infamous resurrection scene and the ending with BB8 (that she treated like a child previously). Of course, it looks pretty old-age but after all it's common in fictions, especially in bittersweet love stories. How does the circle of life gets endless without any child on the way? If Ben could master the power of Darth Plagueis the Wise by saving his loved ones from death, maybe he could create life too and that the novelization will hint at Rey's desire for family/maternity. I don't think that the parallels with this Anidala scene are a total coincidence either. However, the fact that Ben didn't show up point me to the direction that they possibly became one in the Force. In any case, I think it's pretty safe to assume that her looking at peace at the end of the movie confirms that he lives in her in one way or another. Now that his death made Ben more beloved than ever, maybe DLF will feel safe to tell exactly what they had mind in the future
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Post by Atenais on Tue 24 Dec 2019, 9:12 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:I'm still a little sad that they chose this road but I can understand why they did it. It's a question of strategy. Do we realize how Adam managed to make Kylo Ren a likeable character despite the fact he killed Lor San Tekka in cold blood, ordered the mass killing of villagers and murdered his own father?  I do relate very much to that character because he was abused by a monster, rejected by his parents, betrayed by his uncle and trapped in a persona that wasn't him because he felt he could never come back. However, the movie shows pretty well how complex things are. When Palpatine tells him "I have been every voice you have ever word inside your head", that doesn't make him question the fundation of his own vision of the world. When Finn and Jannah discuss about the reason why they left the FO, they stress this idea that it was because of "an instinct, a feeling that it wasn't right to kill people", which Ben didn't really display. And as much as I understand why he is harsh toward Rey in TROS, that wasn't easy to reconcile making him darker at first and making the romance happen later, which they had the guts to do.

Had Ben survived, pretty sure that a good amount of people would have called out DLF for letting a guy like him getting his happy ending without any redemption path, like he never did anything wrong in his life. Of course that I feel sad that they chose the road of killing a young man instead of giving him his road for redemption. They could have had a scene where he feels that he doesn't deserve to live but Rey convinces him to stay alive so instead he willingly chooses to give up his power for the safety of the galaxy and his kids. However, I don't feel bitter about his "death" because I am persuaded that the Lion King vibes in the marketing and the movie wasn't for nothing. There are too many subtle elements that point to the direction that Rey is actually not alone at the end of the movie, its only too subtle for the GA to grasp. Whatever happened during the resurrection, they definitely had more in mind than having just Ben dying for good. Just look at Rey's face just after he vanishes. She doesn't look sad and even manages to smile a little as if she was realizing that "something wonderful has happened".
https://twitter.com/_BlackDiam0nd/status/1209442404820037633

Call me delusional but I think that Disney simply didn't have the guts to make it more obvious so they put subtle hints. I stand to my idea that Pasaana scene is a foreshadowing, which is what I thought from the moment I saw Rey looking at kids tenderly, then being so motherly with the alien girl, sad while answering she has no name, getting an ancestor (fertility?) bracelet and Kylo showing up right after plus all the scenes hinting at something happening: her getting in his room, him saying "I'll meet you there", her telling him "give it to me", him telling her "the only way you get to Exogol is with me" and the infamous resurrection scene and her ending with BB8 (that she treated like a child during a scene). Of course, it looks pretty old-age but after all it's common in fictions, especially in bittersweet love stories. How does the circle of life gets endless without any child on the way? If Ben could master the power of Darth Plagueis the Wise by saving his loved ones from death, maybe he could create life too. Maybe the novelization will hint at Rey's desire for family/maternity that Ben made happen and I don't think that the parallels with this Anidala scene are a total coincidence either. But the fact that Ben didn't show up point me to the direction that they possibly became one in the Force. In any case, I think it's pretty safe to assume that her looking at peace at the end of the movie confirms that he lives in her in one way or another. Now that his death made Ben more beloved than ever, maybe DLF will feel safe to tell exactly what they had mind in the future
[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 4 Captu103
@reylo1992

I agree with you and this is another of my problems with TROS. In this movie Rey and Kylo's arc stepped back, Kylo returned to his dark sider persona and even when Palpatine revealed he was manipulating him since always, Kylo didn't react to that, it was so weird. They didn't develop so many things in this movie...

From what I saw, people wanted him alive, even if the movie didn't help his arc. Imagine if we had a creative writer behind the movie?
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Post by nickandnora on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 12:03 am

@reylo1992 wrote:

Had Ben survived, pretty sure that a good amount of people would have called out DLF for letting a guy like him getting his happy ending without any redemption path, like he never did anything wrong in his life. Of course that I feel sad that they chose the road of killing a young man instead of giving him his road for redemption. They could have had a scene where he feels that he doesn't deserve to live but Rey convinces him to stay alive so instead he willingly chooses to give up his power for the safety of the galaxy and his kids. However, I don't feel bitter about his "death" because I am persuaded that the Lion King vibes in the marketing and the movie wasn't for nothing. There are too many subtle elements that point to the direction that Rey is actually not alone at the end of the movie, its only too subtle for the GA to grasp. Whatever happened during the resurrection, they definitely had more in mind than having just Ben dying for good. Just look at Rey's face just after he vanishes. She doesn't look sad and even manages to smile a little as if she was realizing that "something wonderful has happened".
https://twitter.com/_BlackDiam0nd/status/1209442404820037633

@reylo1992

I know you and I have the same idea/interpretation of the ending, but another straightforward idea (which I'm also fine with) is that Rey briefly looks like she's starting to smile a little or realize something because she's reacting to the fact that he disappeared. If he disappeared it means he did so as a "true Jedi" and that he will be able to become a Force ghost and one day she will see him again. You could argue she's content after that because she knows it's only a matter of time. Of course they needed like one more line, or a hint, or showing him briefly or something to solidify this, but based on what the editor said the other day... lol. They were in a messy state.

I'm remembering back to that rumour that there were eight variations of the ending all very similar to another and J.J. was toying with that ending sequence for awhile. What do we think the potential eight options were?

1) Clearly there was one where it was the entire friendship group on Tattooine.
2) One where Rey's parents' ghosts were there? (This was from an early Paxis leaks and makes no sense)
3) One with Ben's force ghost?
4) One with Ben's voice?
5) The one that we got?

I think J.J. went with the one he did because, based on the way he's talking in his interviews, he wanted this movie to be anything to anyone - a blot that you could interpret whatever you want out of. So he went with the simplest option. Not a great idea in this case for about a hundred reasons (first of all, it's not that kind of story...) but I admit I do like it more than the whole gang being there. I think I'm an outlier there though, and I STILL recognize it's a terrible ending, lol.

I legitimately wonder if they will release a bunch of alternate endings for home release. That would be wild.

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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 3:33 am

I see no smile in that scene. Just a sort of gasp at the realization he’s gone. I am not trying to be negative. I just don’t see it. I would give a lot to know if there were other options too and what they were. But if there was another option, there is no remnant of it imo. I think the hints we might see have more to do with a story telling logic and realizing there’s something missing than real hints that are in the movie because honestly, TRoS is not a nuanced movie.

Releasing an alternate ending would be worse, I think, for their image. They will look even less professional, not even sticking to the ending they chose for the saga. I mean, I would like to have an alternate positive ending, but I doubt they will give us that. I have hope ancillary material will give a better story. Not the novelization though. I can see how this one might not be pleasant to read.

You know that ending also bugs me for another reason. You get the impression she will stay on Tatooine, but then BB-8 is with her and there is no way Poe would give BB-8 to Rey for too long a time. So why is that the last image if she will go back? Or is she not because she keeps Poe’s beloved droid? I know it’s stupid, but it bugs me. Does this girl only own things from others? Can’t she have her own things? At least, it seems to be her own lightsaber.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 4:27 am

@SanghaRen wrote:You know that ending also bugs me for another reason. You get the impression she will stay on Tatooine, but then BB-8 is with her and there is no way Poe would give BB-8 to Rey for too long a time. So why is that the last image if she will go back? Or is she not because she keeps Poe’s beloved droid? I know it’s stupid, but it bugs me. Does this girl only own things from others? Can’t she have her own things? At least, it seems to be her own lightsaber.
@SanghaRen

I think BB-8 is with Rey simply because JJ wanted a visual callback to the start of TFA as well as ANH. You just have to get down to his level and only think in superficial terms.

Personally I doubt that Rey is actually going to live on Tatooine in-story but that’s beside the point IMO. Your final shot is your closing statement and in the final shot, Rey is alone.
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Post by Gemini on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 5:13 am

undefined
@rey09

I'm not Space Baby but I also have distaste for TLJ.

Firstly the positive. The film was definitely RJs and individual which I do appreciate from filmmakers. He had some beautiful shots and scenes and it has more meaning to it because of that. He is really putting his message on it. On a visual level. I appreciate the beauty of it.

Narrative wise. As a movie by itself. It's fine. I think if he had the whole trilogy he would stick to his vision and it would be an cohesive story.

The reason I have distaste for it. It literally refused to answer TFA in any meaningful or logical way. RJ wanted his own story and that's what he was allowed to do.

TFA doesn't suggest Rey is  nothing and nobody, nothing in the way people interact with her, the film language, the dialogue, her arc suggest she is a nobody. It suggests she has a place and who she is, is the missing puzzle piece. In fact I read that her lineage was meant to be revealed in 7, but it was saved.

People say she is nobody because of the trailer "I'm no one" that line along with finns and Kylo strongly indicate that's not the truth. Finn says he has nothing to fight for, kylo says he will be Vader. All 3, not true.

TFA doesnt suggest Luke is an a** when rey approaches him, nor does it suggest she is a retcon nobody or even a retcon palp. The script  notes JJ include match what the film language suggest about them both. This is a Kenobi who has naturally  found her way from solitary to Luke, so she can give him his fathers lightsaber to prompt him onto the quest. As Kenobi once did.  The fact RJ tossed this behind Luke in the opening was him saying, "this is my movie and everything in TFA meant nothing"

He subverted everything important from TFA because of fan speculation. He says dont let fans influence but he clearly let the speculation influence his choices to give answers no one was expecting. But the problem is, these answers do not follow coherently with what came before it. They render rey meaningless to the saga and trilogy. Kylo also felt like a different kylo to TFA.

Reys place was never a nobody who accidentally bumps into the skywalkers. If that was the case, Rey random would have made sense to the GA and they wouldn't be trying to fix this in TROS.

The film does not develop anyone but Luke and Kylo. Finn gets nothing, rey gets nothing and is reduced to her importance being a love interest.

I as many, did not get crazy old Luke vibe at the end of TFA. That is RJs choice to retcon him. It's clear

Luke, IMO should have been to Rey what Obi Wan was to him, again LF tried to correct this with TROS. To the point where Luke says to Rey what Obi Wan once said to him before sacrificing himself for the Skywalkers and solo. The elder skywalkers should be sacrificing themselves for the young Kenobi and a solo/Skywalker.

It falls flat again because shes a bloody palp now...mess.

RJs vision is.good but does not work with a coherent trilogy and he helped to derail the strong themes set up with TFA, which should have been protected by LF. If they were protected from scratch I'm pretty sure that Ben would be alive on Tatooine with Rey Kenobi. Had LF stuck with TFA themes and set up. They would probably have kids too. That's probably the ending the reylo baby from TROS cutting room floor is connected with. Kenobi  not palpatine.

Saying the past doesnt matter and lineage is not important. A random would have still taken the Skywalker name. Ben still would be dead.

People, IMO misunderstood what Rey Random meant, like her being lower than somehow ensured the Skywalker lines survival. Nope. She was the main character pushing the theme of Lineage bad. Your lineage characters are at great risk of being wiped out and a random taking it all.

For this to have any meaning for both characters and the importance of both of their survival to remain intact when facing Palpatine. She needed to be equal to him in terms of lineage and her lineage needed to be a positive one which influences a positive, rhyming ending with the saga.

Rey Random was not positive, it wasnt positive in TLJ and this is confirmed by LF. Rey Random is negative and IMO it was the coffin closing on the original theme of Rey being Leias Only Hope to save Ben. Rey Palpatine later buried it.


.


Last edited by Gemini on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 6:16 am; edited 3 times in total
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Post by SkyStar on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 5:38 am

Kylo started the TFA with a strike of an elite boarding school boy with his hair are coiffured up and a bit of sense of entitlement that was crushed with him killing his father and understanding that he is not something everyone else thinks he is. I would
Imagine him continuing his path in a simple ways and helping the galaxy. Death does not bring a redemption- you must work for it, you must suffer - that is fitting with the christian allegory in tros and fits with the byronical hero. It is something we all struggle- we are left to live with the memories of our past and or wrong doings and it is even harder to tame the anxiety of our own guilt and turn it into good...
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Post by rey09 on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 7:04 am

@Gemini concerning the lineage, well we now know no one had any idea. Even JJ left it open, so ultimately they just made her background a big deal without thinking it through it all. Many people have your thinking but others don't, so it's very much open to interpretation if fans are dvided. I don't think it's RJ's fault, really just lucasfilm, JJ whoever started all this.

I liked Luke's arc in TLJ but I get why ppl are upset about. I think Rian also wanted to isolate Rey further so she's more connected to Kylo. If Rey found the father figure in Luke, then reylo probably would've died right there. What's her emotional need for Ben then?

I will say tho had they actually worked on Rey Palp lineage in and 7 and 8, you wouldn't need this Luke internal conflict because Rey would be struggling with her story, basically you'd get Luke between ESB and ROTJ with Obiwan advising him. And they would have developed this dyad more too so you still have reylo growing.

Sadly nothing was planned at all, and we all suffer for it =/

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Post by Gemini on Wed 25 Dec 2019, 7:20 am

@rey09

They said her lineage was to be revealed in 7, JJ said he knew where he wanted it to originally  go etc.  Daisy said she also knew who her parents were  way back before TLJ and that it changed multiple times as it went along. Palp is certainly a very late addition. Daisy said JJ told her. She said during the production of TROS,  the lineage was one thing, then it changed and then it became what was pitched to her earlier. Palpatine.

It's just my opinion so it doesnt really matter at the end of the day but I think JJ knew who she was when  he made TFA. The casting call for a youngv18 year old female character was grand daughter of Kenobi. That is what these young girls auditioning for (rey?) were seemingly  all told, someone I knew as well who auditioned said this to me, that they were auditioning for the grand daughter of Obi Wan Kenobi, it was open to all races. They cast a young mixed race girl before DR as the grand daughter of Obi Wan Kenobi. Then daisy won it. This mixed girl kenobi chatacter disappeared. It led us to all believe that the kenobi grand child was left on the cutting room floor. But what we got was DR filling in a kenobi like role


The film, imo heavily  suggests she is, the cut saber from Kylos hand in TFA teaser also shows you.

Them saying it was always open with her, imo..that's because they just changed their minds. Especially with Rey Palp Sad
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