Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Forsythia on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:40 am

@OrionStars wrote:Look at these hideous concept art and ideas, I'm glad that JJ simplified everything and discarded a lot of sith, JJ is our friend now
What is this even? I hope it's concept art for Dark!Rey and not some "justified revenge against evil Sith Lord" crap that would be against the core message of Star Wars No Rey stabbing Kylo when he lowered his weapon in TROS was bad enough.


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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:40 am

I know people don't care and they want to be upset, but artbooks are more like... a brainstorm than anything else. They mix "new concept art" that is created after the movie is done (I know it sounds crazy) with outlandish discarded concepts. The purpose of an artbook is to give a bit of insight into the practical aspects of production, not to validate theories or please fan groups.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:45 am

Mixed messages were supposed to attract/satisfy fandom standing at the opposite sides. you reylos get the kiss and you antis get Ben's death. Both happy, right? That's not how the Force works. Reylos hated the death and got hung up on it, while antis hated the kiss and got hung up on it (it didn't help that Finn came off as a pathetic third wheel who yells for rey while she runs off to kiss another guy).

Point being, if fandom is so divided that they cannot meet half-way, you have to pick the side. you are going to lose one but repeat business from the other will compensate for the loss. They didn't pick the side and ended up with losing both.

EDIT: yes, art books are going to have kazillion ideas that won't be developed further. They are brain storming. That said, brainstorming or not, LFL had no clue what they were doing.
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:54 am

Biggest problem of the trilogy in terms of story is that they got too attached to virtual concepts and the execution of all of them sucked. Objectively, I totally get why they did Rey "Skywalker" and what they wanted to convey. But it's a problem when the entirety of your themes are based in subtext and are too cerebral without any materiality. It's the kind of stuff you take to your extracurricular Philosophy Debate class and you spend hours talking about with your peers, but when you translate them to the real world it can be alienating and unrelatable because they're too abstract. If you want to truly apply philosophical/deep sociological concepts to your product (film, book, tv show, doesn't matter) you need to find a way to make it tangible and relatable to the audience. Which, in my humble opinion, they didn't.


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Post by OrionStars on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:54 am

The Korean Reylo lady who posted the VD said the idea of Rey Skywalker already existed on 21 May 2014. Pablo wrote that IDPG held an informal meeting on how to develop EP 8 and EP9 on that day too.
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:55 am

Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
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Post by OrionStars on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 8:58 am

@Piper Maru wrote:Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
@Piper Maru

If I remember correctly, before TROS, Reylos hoped that Rey would marry Ben and Ben made out of it alive. They didn't hope for Rey to become a usurper. I get the idea that LFL wanted Rey to become a Skywalker, but they didn't know how to make her earn it in a right way
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:00 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
@Piper Maru

If I remember correctly, before TROS, Reylos hoped that Rey would marry Ben and Ben made out of it alive. They didn't hope for Rey to become a usurper. I get the idea that LFL wanted Rey to become a Skywalker, but they didn't know how to make her earn it.
@OrionStars

Like I said, everyone knew in some capacity that Rey would be the surrogate daughter of the Skywalker family, but the execution sucked.
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Post by OrionStars on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:01 am

@Piper Maru wrote:
@OrionStars wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
@Piper Maru

If I remember correctly, before TROS, Reylos hoped that Rey would marry Ben and Ben made out of it alive. They didn't hope for Rey to become a usurper. I get the idea that LFL wanted Rey to become a Skywalker, but they didn't know how to make her earn it.
@OrionStars

Like I said, everyone knew in some capacity that Rey would be the surrogate daughter of the Skywalker family, but the execution sucked.
@Piper Maru

Yeah, now I recall that Reylos wanted her to take the Solo name, not the Skywalker IYF
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Post by vaderito on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:08 am

yeah, it seems that their plan has always been Rey "Skywalker". Now find a way to kill all Skywalkers. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

Point being, they decided on the end instead of seeing whether the story organically led there or not.

But yes, I remember theories that Rey would adopt the name or that the name would be the name for new Force users. I think that Rey adopting the name would be fine if she was a nobody but it didn't work with Rey Palaptine.


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Post by Forsythia on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:08 am

@Piper Maru wrote:Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
My theory on this was that Ben would become Ben Skywalker after his redemption and that Rey would take the name from him. And if LF always planned on making Rey a Skywalker in name and not in blood, they should have had enough time to figure out how to tell this in a way that is satisfying to the audience. Also, members of LF like Pablo and Matt shouldn't have told everyone who complained about Rey not being a Skywalker after TLJ that Kylo was enough to count as the Skywalker in this trilogy, they just should have kept quiet or told people to wait with their judgement until the last episode is told.
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Post by Atenais on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:16 am

@Piper Maru wrote:Do you really think they are going to say "Rey 'Skywalker' sucks" in the book that's part of the endorsement for the film?
@Piper Maru

This. And, frankly, they can try to give the movie philosophical/mythological reasons, they can add interesting content in the artbook, they can explore the characters in comics, new movies, etc., the true is, TROS sucks, it's a bad movie. Even if they had changed the ending, if Ben was alive, nothing would change the fact that the plot is bad and the dialogue is terrible. And, yeah, it's maybe cynical, but it's true, they can change anything if they decide to, because for these people money rules.

I keep coming here, because I like to listen what people have to tell, the talk here is entertaining and elucidating, but I made my peace with this movie. I don't even bother to understand it, to understand its meaning, they didn't put effort enough to TROS to me to see it as a piece of art.
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:22 am

I honestly never had a problem with Rey adopting the Skywalker name, and I didn't even have a problem with Ben eventually dying. It didn't distress me or made me lose sleep. That doesn't change the fact that the way they executed the story was a complete mess. You can see the trilogy was just a checklist with the sole purpose of promoting their streaming service and their amusement park, and that they didn't bother to write an organic and cohesive narrative.

@Atenais

Same for me. I come here because I like to talk about these things and I find the entirety of TROS (from pre-production to the final product) a beautiful trainwreck, and it's hard to have proper discussions on Twitter/Tumblr. The Powers that Be can talk endlessly about what they mean and how they planned the entire thing, yadda yadda. It doesn't matter. The final product was released and it was awful.

And frankly, the only worthy analysis of the film is one that talks about how corporations sacrifice creativity and artistic integrity for cheap entertainment and questionable propaganda.
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Post by OrionStars on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:43 am

I know a Reylo lady on Reddit who had a friend that worked at GE park and she said her friend told her that they didn't develop any option of interacting with redeemed Ben Solo at GE park, it was all "masked villain Kylo here and masked villain Kylo there". The insider friend had access to all projects for the theme park and suspected that Ben wouldn't survive TROS and the friend told that Reylo lady about it, then she warned me but I didn't believe her back then,  I  did think that there would be plenty of Reylo and children who willingly pay to interact with redeemed Ben in the park so there would be no way LFL could exclude redeemed Ben Solo, not to mention Ben was already famous before TROS. I know I made another mistake by not believing that Reylo lady but I still don't understand why LFL treated their biggest cast cow of ST like that. Is LFL ignorant or arrogant?
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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:50 am

Joke's on them because you just need to do a very basic SERP analysis to find out Ben Solo/Kylo Ren is the most popular character of the ST.

The thing about GE: they'd never add Redeemed Ben Solo even if he lived, because the attraction is set on a very specific timeframe (1 year between TFA and TLJ) so they can keep it running forever without bothering with the developments of the films. And by the way, they should rethink the whole interactivity thing because the actresses who play Rey are rude af to the visitors Laughing
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Post by vaderito on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 9:53 am

LMAO! maybe they are rude cause they aren't paid well? Oh wait, that should explain the fast turnover. lol!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 10:01 am

Fact is, they created a character more memorable than any of the others, even Vader, and cast one of the finest actors of his generation to play said character.

Then they kill him off, wiping out the entire Skywalker bloodline, and think everyone will be cool with the legacy passing to a character who's most memorable quality is her gender.

This isn't the way to promote feminine equality, in fact it's put it back years. The dude brothers who showed such appaling behaviour towards Kelly online are now acting as if they were justified, because the twits at LF have turned Rey into the Mary Sue they always said she was.
Making her a Palpatine is the final insult. Why oh why they decided on that course of action is beyond me.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 11:36 am

LFL seems to be an odd mix of having the endgame set in stone (Rey "Skywalker", Kylo dies redeemed) without any plan how to arrive there organically or whether such endgame was still feasable after the story that unfolded. it seems to me that they were just unwilling to change:

all Skywalkers die

Rey takes their legacy whether by taking the name (JJ) or by being the only remaining Jedi capable of training new generation thus fulfilling what Luke failed to do (CT)

That was set. the rest was whatever, find some way. IMO, that stems from being to focused on concluding 9 movies than telling a story worth telling. Like, we need to get rid of Skywalkers and continue with Disney only characters even if they didn't take off as well as we hoped. Lots of hubris, IMO.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 12:07 pm

They can't even get their messaging coordinated with the children's media between the Monica & friends cartoon, Rey and her pals book, and now this one. Also "friends who cheer you up" is ridiculous because in the actual movie, Poe is hardly a friend or friendly to Rey, he's some guy she has to tolerate because of her job. Even Finn as her BFF spends all his time just chasing after her and yelling her name. Maybe I'm fine with her ending up on her own with BB8 now that Ben's been vanished back into the corporate vault (which is why I think they had him die and then were so vague/dropped the ball on a Force Ghost)
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Post by special_cases on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 1:52 pm

Maryann talks again, oh my, and finally someone's asking obvious questions about wasting Driver. Is JJ hiding under rocks on Santa Monica beach or  he is on vacation at the North Pole or Antarctica with zero internet access where he can finally talk with penguins about his satisfying movie?

Sort of as an extension to that, how did the actors bring fresh elements to their own characters that enhanced the way you edit? I’m thinking specifically of Adam Driver here. What he does in The Rise of Skywalker is much more evocative and less verbal. How is it any different putting together expositional or less wordy sequences?

Look, I have a script, and I have a director who I can talk to about it. We talk about it, and for instance, Adam’s performance is pretty amazing. I look through the dailies and I find the performance that speaks to me, and I construct it that way. Then when we watch it back, I hope that it speaks to people and I try to figure out if it is or isn’t. You know, sometimes when you put two shots together, it enhances meaning, and sometimes it takes away. So, yeah. I experiment a lot and then figure out what I’m happy with. It’s hard to say, it’s like how do you write a letter, right? [Laughs] Sometimes you write a line and you look at it and you go, “Oh my god, that made no sense! Okay, I’m gonna re-write it.” Or sometimes you just write the first thing that comes to your head and it’s great. But I really do try to get into the performance and understand, for me, what speaks to me and then expand that to, like, what J.J.’s reaction is. And a lot of times, J.J. will say to me, “I love that take,” and I’ll look at it and try to use that take that he loved. And he’s probably right.

Translation: Kylo had way more lines in the script. Driver's acting and screen presense were much convincing than from others - even if you cut it - so we cut him instead of cutting other sequences because these sequences were unbearable weak with this bloated script so with cutting them the story would have just flopped

From what we’ve talked about so far, the sheer experience of working on a film this impactful is huge. There are so many factors that go into crafting Episode IX, especially with all the outside influences as well, with fandom and pop culture. Do you ever think about stuff like that?

It’s hard not to! Every time you open your emails, there’s some Reddit post claiming to know what the story is.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 18 Tenor

So, when thinking about all that – the nostalgia and presence of it all – especially when The Rise of Skywalker brings back someone like Palpatine, how do you make sure something like that pays off for the audience?

If you’re excited to see Palpatine again and we were successful in telling his story and the purpose he served in the film, then we did what we set out to do. If you didn’t get it, or you were like, “You were superfluous,” then we failed. It’s a hard question to answer because the truth is, everything in a film — when I put anything in a film, it’s important. I’m making a point, right? Even if it’s just to make an impression or give you a feeling.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 18 4a55ffba-3c19-48e5-9853-d36f93c3576a

On a film this big with this many moving pieces, what goes into cutting these big ensemble films? How do you prioritize everybody?

That’s a good question! Well, you know what? It’s really hard! But here’s the thing. For me, as an editor and a storyteller, I’m trying to tell a story. Yes, of course, especially with a film like Star Wars, you’re gonna have fan favorites and characters who people wanna see, but I’m following the story and I’m following the emotional thread. And what works for the story, I feel, ultimately, works for the film.  affraid  So, I have to be true to that. If a character is particularly adding to the story emotionally, with a funny joke or a funny look or a great moment, of course, I’m gonna put that in! And if it’s dragging a scene down, because there’s just too much, even if it’s great, I have to think of the bigger picture, right?

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 18 NHSJkWc

We thought about, talked about, reworked, figured out, and tried to come up with the best version we can. And by the way, that’s true on every film I do! The first cut sometimes doesn’t resemble the last cut, and sometimes it does. You find the story in there.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 18 PFPyb

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Post by Piper Maru on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 1:59 pm

Maryann is terrible at giving interviews. She always seems like she's having a bad time answering the questions. Also:

Every time you open your emails, there’s some Reddit post claiming to know what the story is.

Say hello to Burger King and Jedipaxis Laughing
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Post by vaderito on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 2:21 pm

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

Yeah, this lady's so thrown under the bus cause editing is bleepin terrible and one of 2 main reasons (other is nonsense script) for this debacle. So JJ is hiding while Maryann and Chris are digging themselves and the movie deeper.

BTW, is anyone following the Kenobi drama?
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Post by snufkin on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 2:42 pm

The thing about bringing her out is that yes, back in the day Marcia Lucas saved the original movie during the editing process and won an Academy Award to boot. Which it sounds like they were able to pull that off with TFA after all the changes/mishaps on that production. But it so very obviously did not happen in this situation and the thing is, when you're doing the culminating chapter of an iconic 42-years in the making story, you can't half-a** it and hope that people are happy with just nostalgia. Certainly you can't half a** it and not expect your industry/peers to not side eye you a little over the lack of care put into it (but again, the fact that they hired Trevorrow back in 2015 based on JW making bank is pretty much a signal what the studio wanted).
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Post by Saracene on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 2:49 pm

@OrionStars wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Honestly? I think everyone (Reylos included) knew in some capacity that Rey would adopt the Skywalker name/be part of the family. That was clear from the beginning, imo. Doesn't make the execution of it all any better.
@Piper Maru

If I remember correctly, before TROS, Reylos hoped that Rey would marry Ben and Ben made out of it alive. They didn't hope for Rey to become a usurper. I get the idea that LFL wanted Rey to become a Skywalker, but they didn't know how to make her earn it in a right way
@OrionStars

If they wanted Rey to become a part of the family but not through her relationship with Ben, they really needed to work on her relationships with Luke and Leia (mainly Luke). And going romantic with Rey/Ben while also pushing the “adopted child” angle is just plain weird; does Rey in retrospect... kiss her adopted brother? It’s like they approached it on a scene-by-scene basis without thinking through how they gel together in one film.

I also think that the big problem with the “Skywalker family” is that... there kinda isn’t one really, it’s mostly a handy shorthand for the viewers? I mean, they were never envisioned as such, not like Starks and Lannisters or Corleones or any famous fictional family. At first there was just Luke Skywalker, then it turned into a father/son story, then RotJ gave Luke a last-minute lost sister without ever really exploring the family dynamics, then in the ST we jump to when everyone is separated again. There was barely any of the family actually being a family onscreen. I think it’s part of the reason why not that many people are upset over Rey taking the name; it really only belongs to Luke and Luke already died in TLJ and everyone’s already vented and raged about his death and overall treatment.
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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 17 Jan 2020, 2:52 pm

Just saw the TROS concept art in Korean:
https://twitter.com/fpdlffh/status/1218114589352529920

For once, I'll be short:
1. TROS could have been so much better
2. I feel sorry for ReyKenobis
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 18 Captu106
3. My mood
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