Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Piper Maru on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:18 pm

@snufkin

Lmao they were on a tight budget and the Fish Nuns puppeteers told them to piss off. Laughing
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:33 pm

@Piper Maru the Fish Nuns would've also been an uncomfortable reminder of female characters who serve the Force/Jedi but also make time to mate enthusiastically and on a regular basis with their black clad male counterparts
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:54 pm

Hi all, finally my guests are departed... and... when I think of what I’d like to say, I feel like my head is gonna explode here!
Such a dog’s breakfast.
I’m really sad about what they did with Rey’s character - I can’t believe they thought it a good idea to end the movie with Rey visiting a planet alone which personally meant nothing to her. It meant something to the Skywalkers.
Rey needed to revisit Jakku, but no... her whole story got hijacked by the skywalker story.
Then, she just got absorbed into the skywalker story all together through taking on the Rey skywalker identity. Rey as a character is lost and her place in the story seems to be substitute skywalker...
well, seems her scavenging skills have come in handy. She can collect the scraps of the Skywalkers and make the family her own. Rey deserves better than scraps.
Star Wars deserves better than this. Sorry for all the salt I’m still feeling the heartbreak. And I haven’t even talked about Ben yet.
Holy cow. Ugh oh I feel a rant coming on!
Guess I’m hitting the anger stage of grief lol.
Shocked
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 6:38 pm

@californiagirl wrote:The Atlantic went back and interviewed some fanfiction writers again, and needless to say, they are less than thrilled with TROS. https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2020/01/star-wars-rise-skywalker-and-reylo-fan-fic/604408/


To be fair, I think all the characters deserved better than what they got in TROS. But Ben and Rey got the saddest endings. I have difficulty seeing Rey as a pet or a push for toxic feminist messaging when, as the fans above say, she has no purpose, no place, nothing she desires, a name she's never cared about, no friends or close relationships onscreen, totally regressed back to her TFA state she was trying to escape from. It's tragic, and not in a good way. There's nothing hopeful, nothing aspirational, nothing empowering to be found. Ben gets his empowering scene or two, and then he dies. And yeah, the whole thing is handled so oddly both within and outside of TROS, that's why it's attracting so much attention, it's a muddle people are trying to make a semblance of intent or logical conclusion from.
@californiagirl


Daisy Ridley disagrees with your opinion

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 SMW6nQo


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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 6:42 pm

@OrionStars wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:The Atlantic went back and interviewed some fanfiction writers again, and needless to say, they are less than thrilled with TROS. https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2020/01/star-wars-rise-skywalker-and-reylo-fan-fic/604408/


To be fair, I think all the characters deserved better than what they got in TROS. But Ben and Rey got the saddest endings. I have difficulty seeing Rey as a pet or a push for toxic feminist messaging when, as the fans above say, she has no purpose, no place, nothing she desires, a name she's never cared about, no friends or close relationships onscreen, totally regressed back to her TFA state she was trying to escape from. It's tragic, and not in a good way. There's nothing hopeful, nothing aspirational, nothing empowering to be found. Ben gets his empowering scene or two, and then he dies. And yeah, the whole thing is handled so oddly both within and outside of TROS, that's why it's attracting so much attention, it's a muddle people are trying to make a semblance of intent or logical conclusion from.
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Daisy Ridley disagrees with your's opinion

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 SMW6nQo
@OrionStars

Yikes! I hope Daisy did not say "HIS own families"

Because it's definitely not from a progressive gender fluid angle; it's from a patriarchal angle, which emphasizes why the ending is not satisfying.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 6:54 pm

Another detail I remembered during the re-watch, remember this deleted scene from TFA which we assumed would be deferred to Ben's "come home" moment in a later chapter? Not that the scene with him and Han wasn't the actors using dialogue written by a more talented writer which transcended the trash fire it was in. But this moment was deleted for no good reason

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Post by nickandnora on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 7:28 pm

The idea that you can "choose your own family" is not a bad message and the general idea of it is not the thing that I have a problem with.

Like everything else in this movie, it comes down to execution to reflect that theme in a satisfactory way. They didn't know how to execute the idea properly (as they didn't know how to execute many ideas properly) and that's all there is to it.

(Plus Chris Terrio conflating "choose your own family" with "choose your own ancestry" is ACTUALLY hilariously appalling, but what else should I expect from the guy who forgot that Leia and Luke have already been on Tatooine together, lol).

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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:26 pm

The insistence that the plot is about Rey having a "found family" and choosing her own family is such patriarchal nonsense by literally grafting her (Adam's Rib?) to a powerful male legacy character as the answer to why she's so powerful and what her history/backstory is. The ending also insults the character whose primary trait/motivation through two films and the Before the Awakening short story was her loneliness, which helped spark the initial connection between her and Ben. But thanks to the Terrio penned Visual Dictionary* (source), it's now changed that her primary trait is her "lack of identity" (source)

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 EMhhAXzXUAED8gv

* this why holding out hope that the yet-to-be-released content such as the tie-in novels, the Art of book, or home video release will have a better version of the story isn't worth the time/anxiety. Unfortunately it looks like between the signs of studio meddling and JJ putting hiring his friends (nearly all men save the lady who gets to wear a hot catsuit while her face is covered up) for them to act out their own personal fantasy of Star Wars over being consistent of what was in the previous two movies, the story and characters are the biggest casualties.
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:30 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey
Full context: "Although part of Rey's journey is trying to understand the past, I always believe that we choose our family. For Rey, the first was Finn. I hope this will be the message"
https://vimeo.com/378039921


@nickandnora
It's a hopeful message for them, isn't it? It's like in an alternative universe, a random female member of the Bolshevik chose to pretend that she's princess Anastasia out of guilt after the Bolsheviks murdered the entire Romanov family, including the real Anastasia.
No wonder Jett Lucas called Rey "Anatasia of SW" because there were a lot of imposters who proclaimed that they were princess Anatasia the last surviving member of the Romanovs just like how Rey proclaimed that she's a Skywalker
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Post by californiagirl on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:47 pm

I know Daisy has said Rey's legacy would be choosing her own family, but any hypothetical family is entirely absent at the end. Ben dies, she leaves the BFG, so who are her family really? A great many things the cast and creators said in the past don't really make much sense in the context of TROS itself. It's really just kind of degrading to quite a number of persons and groups, be it Ben, Rey, the Skywalkers, the Resistance pals, basically everyone gets done kind of dirty by the end.
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 9:05 pm

@californiagirl wrote:I know Daisy has said Rey's legacy would be choosing her own family, but any hypothetical family is entirely absent at the end. Ben dies, she leaves the BFG, so who are her family really? A great many things the cast and creators said in the past don't really make much sense in the context of TROS itself. It's really just kind of degrading to quite a number of persons and groups, be it Ben, Rey, the Skywalkers, the Resistance pals, basically everyone gets done kind of dirty by the end.
@californiagirl

That's because you're a Reylo so you're biassed. 1 month ago I was blinded by my own bias too, I did refuse to see the truth. Daisy isn't a big fan of Reylo so she doesn't think "Rey ends up alone while Ben Solo is deddddd" is a problem at all.
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Zemr0NO


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Post by Armadeus on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 9:08 pm

@snufkin

That quote from the VD is complete word salad. What is he even talking about? Lack of identity? How does making her a Palpatine solve this? Learning she was a Palpatine didn't change her perspective on the grander metaphysical struggle the way the reveal of Vader being his father did for Luke so it was completely inconsequential. And she completely discards it at the end, anyway. If she had taken ownership of the name the film would have least acknowledged TLJ's theme of learning from the past, but not being shackled to it. Not saying this would have made the film better, but at least this trilogy would have had some consistency.

TROS feels like the third part to a pair of movies that don't exist.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 9:32 pm

@Armadeus IDK if you read the entire thread of screenshots, but that "introduction" makes all of this come across as a massive favor/vanity project JJ doled out to his friends. Including Terrio having authorship over this guide and re-writing the story/characters to likely suit his own preferences.

The most obnoxious part about how Rey "lacks identity" is how the writing can't even grasp something that was clearly depicted in her introduction and carried through two movies, her loneliness thanks to being abandoned by her parents. Besides seeing TRoS this week I also save several other movies, including Hustlers. Constance Wu's protagonist, Dorothy/Destiny, has the same set up as Rey in being palpably lonely and torn between wanting to finding belonging/companionship and wanting to be completely self-sufficient because her parents (immigrants whose marriage fell apart) abandoned her as a child. Even in other movies I can think of where there's a young female character striking out into the world on her own and trying to find herself (I also just saw Little Women or Victor Nuñez's Ruby in Paradise is another good example), it's not about "making a name" by finding a legacy. Which was the entire deal with Luke in the OT. So I guess that's the perspective they brought with them to the character/movie and why they likely didn't understand what's specific to a character like Rey. Her loneliness and isolation and how she negotiates that in figuring out who she wants to be and building relationships to finally replace what she lost (remember that quote from Maz?) when her parents abandoned her.
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 10:52 pm

I'm thinking Pablo Hidalgo wrote the VD for TROS, but Chris Terrio wrote the Foreword. Have I misunderstood?

I've not had the heart to really read it so far. I've flicked through bits but I've not inhaled it like I did the previous two when I got them.
I never would have predicted this would be my experience of SW post TROS.

I thought I was being open minded and prepared to accept the story they wanted to tell me, trusting they were better story tellers than I could ever be... What I hadn't been prepared for was a movie that was just plain crap.
I could have accepted Rey Palpatine happily if he had been done well.

At this point I'm still not sure what place SW will have in my future entertainment.. I'm tired of open ended story telling with no pay off, and no satisfying conclusions.

Half heartedly flicking through the TROS VD, I find myself thinking...
hmm you could come up with detailed stories about the Aki Aki and how their cooking is rated in the galaxy, or the Kessurian dance troupe's remarkable sense of rhythm, or about the popular drink on Kijimi called Ultra-ox, 'a libation with a dense cloud of oxygen suspended above the liquid, which is said to replace altitude sickness and a more pleasurable form of lightheadedness' (p. 134) - why couldn't you have put this level of thought and effort into coming up with a coherent story arc for the main characters in TROS, in the ST and for the overall 9 movie story????!!!! Didn't the final movie in the Skywalker saga deserve better?!  Twisted Evil

Can someone pass me some Ultra-ox please???!!!  drunken

One random VD comment about this:
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 3 Img_4210
- pg 91. Poe's revealed walk on the wild side in TROS was a bit random... and seemed designed to make him a more interesting character. I never connected with his character... and this reveal didn't help.
It made me cranky - Poe himself rejected his parent's legacy as Rebels to work with criminals for a time.. but he was able to return to the family home. He had a home to return to. Lucky golden boy Poe got an easy return to herodom.
I didn't feel anything for Poe, I know I was supposed to but... meh.
I was rooting for Ben Solo, son of Leia and Han, nephew of Luke, grandson of Vader/ Anakin Skywalker, Soulmate of Rey from Jakku!
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Post by Armadeus on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:14 pm

@snufkin

This would be like if Jane Eyre ended with Rochester dead and Jane in Jamaica burying something of his and then claiming the name Rochester. It wouldn't make any damn sense, considering the story the novel has been telling us.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:33 pm

They turned Rey in to the most shallow version of herself. Instead of a “nobody” moving past the obsession with her biological parents while exploring her connection with the conflicted bad guy from good guy parents, they made her in to this all powerful Jedi princess obsessed with finding a NAME. Oh, the Solo/Skywalkers all died within a year of meeting me? Don’t worry, I’ll carry out the hero legacy because I wasn’t satisfied with my lineage. It felt like she was being crowned queen of Tatooine rather than “finding a belonging.” I get this nasty feeling that when the Resistance is like, “Thank goodness we don’t have to worry about Palpatine or that Kylo Ren guy anymore,” she’ll just give a nervous laugh.

It reminds me of how many Japanese idols aren’t allowed to have boyfriends while under contract because it would destroy the fantasy that any of their fans could actually get with them. Rey has to remain single at the end of the saga (JB already took a jab at this) because the dudebros would NOT want to see her happy with the hot bad guy that all the lady fans like.
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Post by Birdwoman on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:36 pm

I am at a strange place with my disappointment grief over TROS. I found some things so ridiculous that I just make fun of it. Like Palpatines motivation in this movie, the knights of ren, Ochie's ship and the bad dialogue. The one thing that just angers me is that in trying to make Kylo a two dimensional villian, they destroyed the characters of Luke and Leia, what callous jerks. But to take a conflicted kid who didn't feel loved, struggled with mental health issues, abuse and abandonment to state he was cursed then kill him off. His mom and uncle knew that would happen and replaced him with perfect Sister Rey of the convent of tattoine. What a horrible message for kids.

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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:42 pm

@Armadeus I just laughed really hard at the thought of that being Chris Terrio's version of Jane Eyre (it'd be that or Jane marries Stjohn and goes to India with him as a missionary). Unfortunately the latter part of the promotions & press interviews made me think of Crimson Peak and that should've been a warning that they were emulating something that's actually a deconstruction of the Gothic romance genre (also appropriating the imagery/tone w/out a clue about the actual themes being appropriate for these characters).

@DeeBee It reads like the Visual Dictionary was possibly a massive a** covering campaign by Terrio to justify their choices for the changes to the story and characters as well as a perk he got for being JJ's friend. The part about Poe is groan worthy as there's been 4 years' worth of book and comic content (boring IMO) about his background and this reads like they decided to appropriate Han and Qi'ra's backstory from Solo on to Poe.
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Post by Birdwoman on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:42 pm

@cowgirlsamurai, yes the gen x fan boys around my age have children and do not want to be reminded about their sexuality much less their daughters might explore that with the 'bad fruit.'
So they made Rey as bland and boring as cotton candy.

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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:47 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Lily Snape : ( I hope your hubby has a box of Kleenex or clean handkerchief with him.

@Piper Maru  The bargain basement Porgs or how the Fish Nuns were nowhere to be seen yelling at Rey for making another mess they're going to have to clean up.
@snufkin

So, as it turns out, my kiddo is more invested in Reylo than she is in Ben Solo, and she had been (gently) teased for three years by her friend that Reylo was just her imagination. She was so happy to have won the Reylo debate— her friend conceded— that Ben’s demise and the general crapulousness of the film didn’t get to her. My worry was for nothing. Projecting, I guess.

Oh to be young and the product of a happy childhood (I’ve really REALLY tried to be a good and reasonable parent because my parents were, as my sister put it, a horror show. As in, teachers calling Child Protective Services. Which might explain my empathy for Ben, whereas my daughter is very open about having had a happy childhood— try writing college application essays about a life being loved and supported— and I think she has mostly been there for the romance. Which she got.)
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Post by Armadeus on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 12:01 am

@Cowgirlsamurai

It goes back to the infantilisation discussion on this board a while back.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 12:01 am

@Lily Snape Glad she came out of it unscathed and having won the debate with her friend. There are people still insisting "it's not romantic" when the writing is so tone deaf and you can tell that they outright lifted plot points from Wonder Woman, Romeo and Juliet, and Titanic with the assumption that'd cover their bases for romance and appealing to young girls.

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Post by Lily Snape on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 12:07 am

@snufkin wrote:@Lily Snape Glad she came out of it unscathed and having won the debate with her friend. There are people still insisting "it's not romantic" when the writing is so tone deaf and you can tell that they outright lifted plot points from Wonder Woman, Romeo and Juliet, and Titanic with the assumption that'd cover their bases for romance and appealing to young girls.

@snufkin

I should add that her friend is a 17-year-old boy who has been in “you’re reading too much into it” mode regarding Reylo as long as my daughter has known him— but even he can see that they kissed and Rey wanted to take his hand and it’s a romance. It’s not rocket science.
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Post by Kessel on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 12:14 am

@snufkin wrote:@Lily Snape Glad she came out of it unscathed and having won the debate with her friend. There are people still insisting "it's not romantic" when the writing is so tone deaf and you can tell that they outright lifted plot points from Wonder Woman, Romeo and Juliet, and Titanic with the assumption that'd cover their bases for romance and appealing to young girls.

@snufkin

The argument that “it’s not romantic” has got to be one of the most WTF ones I’ve seen. It’s the definition of being in denial.

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Post by Birdwoman on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 12:19 am

My IRL male friends I have known since 17, comic, SIFI and Star Wars fanboys were posting about how strange it was that JJ seemed to secretly want Luke and Leia to get together.
They were also joking this is why Ben fell and Han left Leia. I am so glad they see the ridiculousness in the plot.

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