Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars...

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Post by DeeBee on Wed 08 Jan 2020, 4:24 am

Hi Everyone, hope you are all well!
I see lots of discussion about how TROS happened, decision making, and theories around how it turned out the way it did in the TROS spoilers thread. I crave answers.. and it appears others feel the same way! How could TROS have turned out the way it did?! Shocked

I think it is natural to search for answers in order to process the loss and grief around the end of the saga. Regardless of whether it was a great movie, the end involves mourning, and needs to be processed. However, that TROS has ended the saga on such a (for me) sour note, has added a whole new layer of grieving...
Is it just me who feels this way?
I'm grappling with how to process this.. with figuring out what to do with TROS, how to rationalise it, how to mend my broken heart. I'm questioning if or how Star Wars has a place in my future entertainment moving forward. I may not get any answers..
I avoided all talk of leaks leading into the movie, as I didn't want to put myself emotionally through the wringer about a movie which may not even exist. Now that it's out, there's no denying this is the mess they gave us.

So what is the future of star wars storytelling? Is TROS a unique situation, or a sign of things to come?
I came across this article over the holidays..dated 15 December, 2019. Five days before the release of TROS.. I'm curious to hear what you all think.. I'll share it and come back to comment on it when I can over the weekend..

LA Times Article wrote: After “The Rise of Skywalker,” Kennedy, 66, faces what might be her most daunting challenge since George Lucas handpicked her to shepherd his creation over seven years ago: figuring out what’s next for what is probably pop culture’s most closely critiqued franchise.

Fans have been parsing the series’ creative choices since “Star Wars” debuted in 1977 (Jar Jar Binks, anyone?), and the scrutiny has only intensified since Disney bought Lucasfilm for $4 billion shortly after Kennedy joined. “Star Wars” is a major pillar in Disney’s streaming push with Disney+, which is Walt Disney Co. Chief Executive Bob Iger’s top priority.

“Obviously, that’s what’s we’ve been spending so much time talking about, and it’s a really important transition for ‘Star Wars,’” Kennedy said in an interview. “What we’ve been focused on these last five or six years is finishing that family saga around the Skywalkers. Now is the time to start thinking about how to segue into something new and different.”

Kennedy’s tenure hasn’t been without setbacks. While the first four “Star Wars” films in the Disney era combined for nearly $5 billion at the global box office, 2018’s “Solo” was a commercial disappointment, following a fraught production in which the studio replaced the directors during shooting. Iger openly blamed the lackluster performance on releasing too many “Star Wars” movies too quickly.

"It’s a really important transition for “Star Wars” ... Now is the time to start thinking about how to segue into something new and different.”
KATHLEEN KENNEDY, PRESIDENT OF LUCASFILM

The company has announced films with intriguing filmmakers attached, only to later part ways with them. “Jurassic World” director Colin Trevorrow was replaced with Abrams for “The Rise of Skywalker” after Trevorrow struggled to develop a script that satisfied the studio. Most recently, “Game of Thrones” showrunners David Benioff and D.B. Weiss dropped a planned “Star Wars” trilogy after they signed a deal with Netflix.

Kennedy views any negative conclusions drawn from the director churn as exaggerated.

“Nobody in our business develops something with one person, that’s it, and everything goes perfectly,” she said. “That’s a fairly common part of the process. We fall under incredible scrutiny because it’s ‘Star Wars.’ Because of the quality I’m striving for, I’m reaching out to top talent, and vice versa.”
“They’ve had three, and soon to be four, very successful movies, and one not-so successful movie,” said Doug Creutz, an entertainment and media analyst at Cowen & Co. “‘The Mandalorian’ has been a very successful lead program for Disney+, and they’ve integrated ‘Star Wars’ into the theme parks. That said, it hasn’t been as smooth a ride as it has been for Marvel.”

During production of “The Rise of Skywalker,” Kennedy asked Iger if he was comfortable taking a “pause” on “Star Wars” films. Iger agreed to pump the brakes to give Lucasfilm more time to develop new movies. The company had been delivering at least one “Star Wars” film a year since 2015, whereas Lucas himself had waited at least three years between films.

“We’re literally making this up from whole cloth and bringing in filmmakers to find what these stories might be,” Kennedy said. “It can take a while before you find what direction you might want to go. We need the time to do that.”

The next “Star Wars” film is expected to arrive in 2022, and that’s essentially all that’s known about it. Marvel Studios President Kevin Feige has an idea for a “Star Wars” movie, but it’s in the early stages, according to Kennedy. Rian Johnson, who wrote and directed “The Last Jedi,” is also developing more “Star Wars” films.

Kennedy said she plans to make key decisions about the direction of the franchise in the coming weeks. But some things she already knows. While the “Skywalker” saga is ending, the company won’t abandon the characters created in the most recent trilogy. Additionally, she said, the plan is to move beyond trilogies, which can be restricting.

“I think it gives us a more open-ended view of storytelling and doesn’t lock us into this three-act structure,” she said. “We’re not going to have some finite number and fit it into a box. We’re really going to let the story dictate that.”

Her career took a dramatic turn in 2012, when her friend Lucas named her co-chair of Lucasfilm, making her custodian of his legacy.
The job came with early challenges. Lucas had spoken with Carrie Fisher, Mark Hamill and Harrison Ford about continuing the “Star Wars” saga. But the firm, which had largely been focused on licensing and animation, needed to build a production and development team.
Then, just four months after Kennedy got the job, Lucas sold to Disney. While Kennedy was unexpectedly in the position of managing that transition, the new ownership was also an opportunity. “The level of support [from Disney] was extraordinary,” she said. “It just takes some time to get to know people, and who’s doing what. But now it’s quite streamlined, and everybody works together really, really well.”

Kennedy came with a stable of existing Lucasfilm talent to build from, including Dave Filoni, who had trained under Lucas on projects including the “Clone Wars” TV series and 2008 movie. Filoni told her he was interested in learning to direct live-action. So Kennedy, he said, set up a program for him to shadow directors including Abrams and Johnson.
“I think it says a lot about how she looks at a long game and works patiently to achieve goals and find success, not just for the projects, but for people as well,” said Filoni, who is executive producer and a director of “The Mandalorian.”

The pressure to deliver for fans with the first “Star Wars” film under Disney was immense. Lucas, who was stung by the poor reception of his “Star Wars” prequels, was disappointed when Kennedy screened “The Force Awakens” for him. He complained there was “nothing new” in the movie, according to Iger’s recent book “The Ride of a Lifetime.” Nonetheless, the film was a critical and commercial success, grossing more than $2 billion.

Debates over the franchise persisted. “The Last Jedi,” for example, was criticized in some circles for going too far in subverting “Star Wars” tropes.

Kennedy says the company heeds feedback from “Star Wars” fans. For example, Lucasfilm decided to revive “The Clone Wars” TV series for Disney+ following a prolonged campaign by viewers.
“It does matter what they say and what they care about,” Kennedy said. “All of those things play a role in our decision making.”

Aside from films, Lucasfilm has ample “Star Wars” material in the works, especially for Disney+. The studio is working on shows starring Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Diego Luna as his rebel spy character from “Rogue One.”
Additionally, the company is experimenting with new formats. Lucasfilm’s ILMxLab, a virtual reality and augmented reality unit founded in 2015, this year released a VR series called “Vader Immortal” that puts users face-to-face with Darth Vader and trains headset users to wield a lightsaber.
“When you have something that’s very precious like ‘Star Wars,’ you have great expectations both internally and in the fan world, and we were taking a risk,” said Vicki Dobbs, who runs the VR group. “ [We] feel like if there’s a new way to tell stories, that that’s what Lucasfilm is all about, and we should be there pioneering.”

The possibilities extend beyond “Star Wars.” “Solo” co-writer Jonathan Kasdan has completed a pilot script for a series based on the cult classic “Willow.”
Kennedy is pushing for new material.

While Lucasfilm was shooting “The Rise of Skywalker,” Michelle Rejwan went to a London bookshop and picked up the fantasy novel “Children of Blood and Bone” by Tomi Adeyemi. She recommended it to Kennedy, who was enchanted by the story and thought the themes echoed those of “Star Wars.” She found out the rights to the book were owned by Fox, which Disney was in the process of absorbing. She called Fox film executive Emma Watts and asked if Lucasfilm could co-develop a film based on the property.
But what makes a new Lucasfilm franchise if it has nothing to do with “Star Wars?” That’s another question Kennedy will grapple with as she considers the company’s future. She compares the process to when she sat down with Spielberg and Marshall to determine the creative identity of Amblin.
“I’m very excited at the possibility of being able to do things that expand our portfolio a little bit,” she said. “You realize there’s so much potential to do some pretty great things, and to expand beyond just ‘Star Wars’ is pretty exciting to think about.”

SOURCE


If I don't have faith in LFL or Disney to tell a good story, Star Wars is not a brand I will invest my emotions nor my time in..
What do you all think? I'm still not sure what to think... Still processing! pale
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Post by cherrylipstick on Wed 08 Jan 2020, 6:10 am

Well right now I'm in a place where I basically don't care anymore Laughing
Actually I've never been that kind of fan that reads or watches everything SW related. I loved the OT (and then the ST) because the characters, the story, the dynamic intrigued me. And all of these things collapsed with the last movie.
I'm too disappointed and sad about they way they treated the story. It's not just what happened the problem, it's how. The movie seems so lazy, full of random ideas, and it lacks the original SW soul. When Terrio or JJ talked about their passion/love for the OT, especially Luke and Leia, I can't see a real passion for SW. They were in love with certain ideas or iconic pictures, but it's like they weren't really able to capture the true importance of this saga.
Maybe for them SW was all pew pew battles and iconic clothes and poses, to me it was something else. Many people fell in love with the story, a family story, about hope, love, second chances, friendship... It's like they forgot (kinda forgot  Laughing   ) all these things and that's why I felt this movie so flat and empty.
If this will be the direction they want to follow in the future, well you can count me out . I will spend my money on other things, I'm done.  Very Happy
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Post by guardienne on Wed 08 Jan 2020, 6:50 am

i have a feeling that there is a general crisis in storytelling. i've seen it in the avengers movies and now in SW, it also happened in GoT from what i can tell.

i am curiously invested in this now that i can look at the new trilgy as a complete work and it's revealed its flaws and how they actually interpreted SW as fans. (spoiler: i don't think i share vision with either abrams or johnson). it's taken away a lot of stress on how to see something and why it happened etc.

but anyway, i think the main story of star wars is a very exhausted thing by now, it didn't ahve to be but it is. i think i will continue to look for what they have to offer, because i will continue to consume media of some kind, because i'm interested in culture, because why the hell not, but i no longer trust tem to get it right.

i've learnt that there is a way to enjoy these movies now, largely for the incidental and fleeting pleasures in them, not for thematic arcs or logic. i'm longing for well-constructed stories so i can't wait for villeneuve to give us dune.

it's not all over with me and star wars but i honestly can't spend time investing myself in the same way again, it's just not worth it.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 08 Jan 2020, 11:24 am

Agree with everything here, but let me add a couple of links.
https://www.cinemablend.com/news/2487911/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker-has-seen-significantly-high-drops-in-attendance-since-opening-weekend

I know I'm being mean spirited but this put a smile on my face

Then there's this
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4C4dz9rxKAc#
As it's Mike Zeroh (again) best take with a pinch of salt.

But....I find it interesting that he mentioned things were edited so they could focus on Rey,Poe and Finn. This corresponds with the rumour KK wanted the Tiresome Trio to be given the lion's share of screen time.

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Post by fuhry on Wed 08 Jan 2020, 1:49 pm

My feeling is that J.J. had a good amount of lead time to develop TFA. I suspect that originally, Rey was supposed to be Luke's long lost granddaughter. But that at some point in the production - it was probably when they filmed the Kylo's interrogation of Rey and they took note of the seething chemistry - they decided to leave Rey's origins ambiguous. It may have been something that Rian Johnson asked them to do, like he asked for R2 to be brought to Atch-to.

Now, they may have decided at that point she was Palpatine. But I think the effect of leaving her origin ambiguous in TFA is that it actually made the movie mysterious and rich. Much like the original Star Wars, I think it teased a backstory. Who is Rey? Who is Snoke? Who is Phasma? How did Ben Solo become Kylo Ren? What the hell happened in the 3 decades since ROTJ?

I think Rian was a bit rushed on his story for TLJ and I think it showed some signs of being stiched together. The whole "Travel to Canto Bight" sequence, was, I think, designed to add some action to the film, but the execution of it was clunky. I found the idea that they had to go get some slicer from Canto Bight in order to break into the first order flagship and disable something kind of unconvincing. However, Rian wonderfully advanced the story of Kylo Ren and his connection to Rey. And I think that Kylo and Rey killing Snoke in the second movie was a stroke of unexpected genius. To me it should have been the tipping point of the whole trilogy - like the "I am your father" moment for the OT or Anakin slaughtering the sandpeople in the PT.

Rey's "nobody" reveal and Snoke's death, as well as Carrie Fisher's death, created some serious challenges in creating the third installment. My theory is that Trevorrow's plot idea was lackluster, and that it didn't bring the whole saga together in any kind of satisfying way. He may have advocated for CGI or recast Leia. Who knows? Maybe his script was good and they got cold feet after Solo. I tend to think that his script just wasn't epic enough.

So they canned him and, with very little time to find a suitable replacement, knew they could rely on J.J. to at least make a passable movie. They may have considered having Rian do IX as well. They probably just didn't have the time to find someone else. They could have used Filoni (I wish they would have) but they didn't trust him to do a blockbuster live action movie.

They should have delayed the movie, like they delayed TFA. But they probably couldn't get Disney to agree to that. So J.J. had to come up with a story, and quick. So he called his pal Terrio and they knocked one out, like of like J.J. knocked out the script for TFA with Kasdan. But unlike TFA, leaving a bunch of stuff open ended and mysterious wouldn't work this time.

J.J.'s best idea for creating an epic finale was to bring back Palpatine. J.J. probably didn't feel confident he could manage a Ben Solo redemption without Ben dying, so he didn't try it. He didn't like the idea of a big time jump or Leia dying off screen so a big part of his process was probably building his plot around spare footage he had of Leia.

Bringing back the Emperor required a lot of heavy lifting. How did it happen? How did Snoke fit in? How can he be stopped? I think J.J. and Terrio, in addition to this big problem of how the Emperor came back, wanted to make sure to have a lot of Star Wars banter and fun with Rey and Finn and Poe, something many felt was missing from TLJ. I think they were also contractually obligated to bring in a certain number of new characters for merchandising. Jannah, Zorii, DO, Pryde.

It was a lot of pieces to fit together and I think they came up with a 3 hour script. But I think that Disney nixed the idea of a 3 hour movie.

That's where I think Disney interfered. They said, no release delay, and 2 hours 30 minutes tops. They also may have had some regulations based on the Chinese market (i.e. no force ghosts). I think that if you didn't watch TLJ too closely, you could believe that Luke was not a ghost at Atch-to. And no other ghosts appear.

So J.J. and Terrio had to figure out how to fit everything into 2 hours and 30 minutes, and they were already filming, and on a tight schedule. They did the best they could and delivered a fun action movie. But they just were not qualified, nor did they have the development time, to make a movie of great depth and meaning.

As much as I was anxious to see all these films, I think having a 2 year gap in between movies was a mistake. They should have gone with the 3 year, or 2.5 year gap.
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Post by guardienne on Thu 09 Jan 2020, 12:28 am

@fuhry i think trevorrow's departure happened before carrie fisher's death and had to do with 'the book of henry'.
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Post by DeeBee on Thu 09 Jan 2020, 3:58 am

I'm coming to the conclusion that LFL don't actually strive to tell a complete story, they provide scaffolding. Then, hints, allusions, teases to different possible interpretations. This then feeds the debate between fans. They feed the Reylos a little something, they also feed the Reywalkers, the stormpilots, the Ben haters or Ben lovers, the Luke and Leia worshipers, the Han Solo champions, Vader fan boys... Fandom wars feed interest and commitment in fans. No one is wrong, it's a choose your own adventure franchise.

I find at the end of TROS I'm cynical about the absence of Ben Solo's FG. I think they are calculating and leave it open deliberately - to keep Reylos or Bendemptionists hoping, while for those who don't like it they can simply read nothing into it. It keeps the fans engaged and hopeful, the debates raging, the conversations open. At the end of the Skywalker Saga, we are left with: half of a story told, and more story to tell - maybe!!
We've eaten a three course meal and we are all starving. No one ends this feast with a full belly, and some of us hang around hoping for scraps to finally feel some satiety.   Embarassed

@cherrylipstick wrote:Well right now I'm in a place where I basically don't care anymore Laughing
Actually I've never been that kind of fan that reads or watches everything SW related. I loved the OT (and then the ST) because the characters, the story, the dynamic intrigued me. And all of these things collapsed with the last movie.
I'm too disappointed and sad about they way they treated the story. It's not just what happened the problem, it's how. The movie seems so lazy, full of random ideas, and it lacks the original SW soul. When Terrio or JJ talked about their passion/love for the OT, especially Luke and Leia, I can't see a real passion for SW. They were in love with certain ideas or iconic pictures, but it's like they weren't really able to capture the true importance of this saga.
Maybe for them SW was all pew pew battles and iconic clothes and poses, to me it was something else. Many people fell in love with the story, a family story, about hope, love, second chances, friendship... It's like they forgot (kinda forgot  Laughing   ) all these things and that's why I felt this movie so flat and empty.
If this will be the direction they want to follow in the future, well you can count me out . I will spend my money on other things, I'm done.
 Very Happy
@cherrylipstick
Love the bolded! Kinda forgot is right.. they gave it a go but got it really wrong because it just didn't make sense for the characters.
I agree without heart, without meaning, without intentional and satisfying storytelling I'm not going to consume star wars much anymore..
I was one who bought lots of SW content. I can't say if this will continue, but.. for now, I have no desire to spend money on SW.
No interest in reading the books I've already bought that now just sit there..

@guardienne wrote:i have a feeling that there is a general crisis in storytelling. i've seen it in the avengers movies and now in SW, it also happened in GoT from what i can tell.

i am curiously invested in this now that i can look at the new trilgy as a complete work and it's revealed its flaws and how they actually interpreted SW as fans. (spoiler: i don't think i share vision with either abrams or johnson). it's taken away a lot of stress on how to see something and why it happened etc.

but anyway, i think the main story of star wars is a very exhausted thing by now, it didn't ahve to be but it is. i think i will continue to look for what they have to offer, because i will continue to consume media of some kind, because i'm interested in culture, because why the hell not, but i no longer trust tem to get it right.

i've learnt that there is a way to enjoy these movies now, largely for the incidental and fleeting pleasures in them, not for thematic arcs or logic. i'm longing for well-constructed stories so i can't wait for villeneuve to give us dune.

it's not all over with me and star wars but i honestly can't spend time investing myself in the same way again, it's just not worth it.
@guardienne

I'm really glad you mentioned other franchises guardienne, I've been wondering about that and if this is a wider shift in how big studios are trying to tell stories. the article I quoted made me nervous about this, but I don't have time to fully dig into it till the weekend. Just wanted to say - enjoyed reading your thoughts and insights on other franchise experiences because I'm not familiar with them. I was 100% into star wars till TROS. I'm not sure what I am now - yet! lol. I too can't see myself investing myself in SW like I have been again. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!

@motherofpearl1 - thanks for the links! I'll try and watch them on the weekend. oh rofl. the zeroh makes an appearance huh!

@fuhry -hello! I look forward to digging into your ideas this weekend. But, simply put - I agree that now the story has been told it's clear that the lack of time and planning has badly damaged the ST. That KK asked Iger to put the brakes on so they can develop better stories hints that this lesson was learned with the ST. I guess the $$$, the pressure, the big studio, the optimism and ambition led to hubris.
I can only hope they have learned from their mistakes but at this point if I were to consume future SW content, I wouldn't be committing myself or my wallet to much without knowing how things end. lol!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 09 Jan 2020, 7:52 am

If there's one thing I'm angry about it's how they completely retconned TLJ.
I know a lot of people didn't like it, but it did offer some interest new directions for the franchise. I liked how everyone made mistakes. I liked how the Jedi were shown as imperfect, that the Resistance bought from arms dealers, that in short no one was black or white. It reminded me a lot of Princess Mononoke.
It was also easily as good as some Oscar winners and Mark and Adam deserved Oscar nominations, at least in my opinions.

Most of all it was different.

TROS, however, seemed to completely wipe away the slate.
The Resistance were the guys in white hats again. Poe was the one with the whitest hat. Finn was 'in lurve' with Rey (sigh). Kylo had to die of course because HE KILLED HAN. Being abused, neglected, broken and mentally ill doesn't count in the TROS world. Poe can get away with getting half his comrades killed and dealing drugs, but what the heck - he's Leia's REAL son, isn't he, the other is just a mistake that came out of her body.

And of course the Jedi are.....
Perfect. How dare a Force sensitive want to be loved, or have a family, because THAT'S NOT HOW THE FORCE WORKS. To be truly perfect you must be a perennial virgin. Male and female

I find this a disturbing message. It reminds me of the strict dogma of the Catholic church, something a lot of people are working to change these days, and rightfully so. I actually find Rey's situation at the end a bad example to set. I also always found Yoda's message in the prequels....that love leads to possession, a genuinely horrible message. In short, it's evil to love.

If this is the new vision of Star Wars Disney want to tell, I find it sick. Count me out.
I'm just sorry something created to inspire has degenerated into this. Shame on you Disney.
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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:38 am

@DeeBee

“Kennedy says the company heeds feedback from “Star Wars” fans. For example, Lucasfilm decided to revive “The Clone Wars” TV series for Disney+ following a prolonged campaign by viewers. ‘It does matter what they say and what they care about,’ Kennedy said. ‘All of those things play a role in our decision making.’

I wrote them a letter to ask them to bring back (alive) Ben Solo— episode X, post-credits, whatever. Although I’m afraid they’d screw it up. Let’s have Rian do an Episode X. Smile
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 1:52 am

I'd actually like a stand alone with Adam as Kylo/Ben, following TROS, with Rian directing.

But I think they're too good for Disney now.
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 3:11 am

Hi All, I haven't had the time to come back to comments as I had hoped. oh well it's not going anywhere I guess!
@Lily Snape - how did you write to them? that's a great idea! Hey did you win your bet? we heard Anakin's voice so that counts as an appearance no?
@motherofpearl1 wrote:I'd actually like a stand alone with Adam as Kylo/Ben, following TROS, with Rian directing.

But I think they're too good for Disney now.
@motherofpearl1
I came across this the other day but haven't listened to it. haven't had the time:
"12/13/19 - Star Wars Writer/Director Rian Johnson Full Interview" - this was 13 December 2019. SOURCE
Goes for an hour.. Anyone heard it?
Apparently RJ said in the interview:
Rian Johnson wrote: I think approaching any creative process with [making fans happy] would be a mistake that would lead to probably the exact opposite result. Even my experience as a fan, you know if I’m coming into something, even if it’s something that I think I want, if I see exactly what I think I want on the screen, it’s like ‘Oh, okay,’ it might make me smile and make me feel neutral about the thing and I won’t really think about it afterwards, but that’s not really going to satisfy me.”  
I found the quote HERE. If anyone gets a chance to listen to this, I'd love to hear what it's like.
I remember he made comments like this post TLJ but interesting to see him publicly saying this so close to TROS release.
Makes me wonder if he had seen TROS at that point.. but I think he has totally nailed it. I wonder what KK, LFL and Disney make of this in light of the response to TROS. Good story telling is not a choose your own adventure it doesn't truly satisfy.
Sure read what fans are after in content that's Sales 101.
But you've also got to be unapologetic and commit to tell a story that you believe in. You can't just give fans what they want.
I want a great story that moves me! That is what I wanted.. but for me it failed to tell a good story in the final crucial chapter.

Would GL have given such priority to what the fans were saying? Didn't seem to me he gave two hoots when he did ROTS - he kept dialogue and politics in there because he knew the story he wanted to tell.
I see that without the belief that you have a story that's meaningful and worth telling - OT and PT stories wouldn't have been told..
I can only conclude now that the ST was told because there's maybe a story in there that means something  - the audience can pick that out depending on what they want and what they see. and we'll give them Nostalgia and action to bring it all together. The ST was told because the fans wanted it and Disney wanted profits - the story should have led the way. If GL had an outline for ST I find it difficult to believe they followed it when we now know sooo much of the ST story was not planned out before TFA. TROS will go down in history as a movie ruined when the inmates were given control of the asylum. So to speak.

With TROS and the result I wonder what is in store for RJ given he isn't going to pander. I've been searching and found this little comment from RJ about his future Star Wars project, in article published 10 September, 2019:
“The truth is they’re still figuring out their schedule, their game plan, so if it’s possible for me to squeeze in another film before or while working on that, I will.” SOURCE


Getting back to the KK interview quoted above..
LA Times Article wrote:
“Obviously, that’s what’s we’ve been spending so much time talking about, and it’s a really important transition for ‘Star Wars,’” Kennedy said in an interview. “What we’ve been focused on these last five or six years is finishing that family saga around the Skywalkers. Now is the time to start thinking about how to segue into something new and different.”

- I think finishing the family saga meant the bloodline had to end. I don't agree with it, but I think they saw it had to end otherwise the fans would be demanding they bring it back. Like the legacy of it all was weighing them down. They wanted to cut the apron strings.. The soother for fans is that Rey took the Skywalker name as her own.. soooo they think they can draw on her story for Skywalker references when they want, continue to use the Jedi and draw on nostalgia without the weighty legacy. They even had Rey bury the legacy lightsaber which had called out to her at the end of TROS. (which IMHO goes against what we know of the Kyber crystal and the force user connection but.. whatever!) No no. can't have the skywalker legacy saber in any future content with Rey! She must have her own! Ugh.. It's almost meta - how Kylo felt the heavy burden of being Vader's grandson, Luke's nephew, Leia's son - so too did LFL feel a heavy burden. Aie. it's really awful IMHO. Telling the end of this story should have been treated with more care and respect. IMHO it was an honour TROS creators didn't deserve.

LA Times Article wrote: “Nobody in our business develops something with one person, that’s it, and everything goes perfectly,” she said. “That’s a fairly common part of the process. We fall under incredible scrutiny because it’s ‘Star Wars.’ Because of the quality I’m striving for, I’m reaching out to top talent, and vice versa.”
“They’ve had three, and soon to be four, very successful movies, and one not-so successful movie,” said Doug Creutz, an entertainment and media analyst at Cowen & Co. “‘The Mandalorian’ has been a very successful lead program for Disney+, and they’ve integrated ‘Star Wars’ into the theme parks. That said, it hasn’t been as smooth a ride as it has been for Marvel.”
- The bold is pretty presumptuous to say.. and says a lot about how they thought whatever the saga would give them profits IMHO!

LA Times Article wrote: During production of “The Rise of Skywalker,” Kennedy asked Iger if he was comfortable taking a “pause” on “Star Wars” films. Iger agreed to pump the brakes to give Lucasfilm more time to develop new movies. The company had been delivering at least one “Star Wars” film a year since 2015, whereas Lucas himself had waited at least three years between films.

“We’re literally making this up from whole cloth and bringing in filmmakers to find what these stories might be,” Kennedy said. “It can take a while before you find what direction you might want to go. We need the time to do that.”

- this says something about TROS don't you think?
I mean Trevorrow was fired, and JJ was hired in Sept 2017. JJ had a full script done by Feb 2018 (as he said on stephen colbert). That's only 6 months. Sure the movie had a history and world he could draw on but the final product seems to show he ended up creating loads of new content and characters.
They figured out Solo was too much too fast, but chose not to delay TROS. I had held out hope that this meant they had been really confident they were onto a good script because they knew where the ST story was headed and TROS was about bringing it all to fruition, but it didn't play like that for me at all.

LA Times Article wrote: Kennedy said she plans to make key decisions about the direction of the franchise in the coming weeks. But some things she already knows. While the “Skywalker” saga is ending, the company won’t abandon the characters created in the most recent trilogy. Additionally, she said, the plan is to move beyond trilogies, which can be restricting.

This worries me. The characters created in the most recent trilogy will not be abandoned huh. Probably the ones that are JJ's friends (Okay now that is just plain salty DeeBee).

LA Times Article wrote: “I think it gives us a more open-ended view of storytelling and doesn’t lock us into this three-act structure,” she said. “We’re not going to have some finite number and fit it into a box. We’re really going to let the story dictate that.”

-Didn't seem to me like they paid much attention to this structure with TROS if you ask me. And in TROS the story of the previous 8 movies didn't seem to dictate the story of TROS. But of course.. YMMV.
This is TV series style story telling. This is what concerns me the most. Because it's not story telling I want. I want a story with a well thought out ending. It's what makes stories satisfying.
I've noticed this happening more and more over the years - open ended story telling.

You know what this reminds me of? a Soap Opera!! When I was a teen and all goo goo over Days of our Lives couples and squealing I eventually noticed (took me longer than I wish it had haaa) - that the couples and the families we cheer for, and long to see live happily ever after? They never do! We don't get to see that story. So it was a never ending cycle of hope, hope briefly fulfilled, and/or hopes dashed.
Jane Austen and Jane Eyre it ain't. and that's cool - but it's not a style of story telling I want.
I could see LFL stringing me along for years that Ben Solo is going to come back and there's always a chance! Ughh.. Nope.

LA Times Article wrote:
Kennedy says the company heeds feedback from “Star Wars” fans. For example, Lucasfilm decided to revive “The Clone Wars” TV series for Disney+ following a prolonged campaign by viewers.
“It does matter what they say and what they care about,” Kennedy said. “All of those things play a role in our decision making.”

It's called 'fan service' don't go and try to make it sounds all lofty lol!
LA times article SOURCE

The article has lots of quotes from KK talking up new and inventive content, but everything that's upcoming and mentioned seems to be drawing on existing characters or sources materials. Not entirely 'whole cloth' and new. If this is going to happen it's going to be years.

Nothing I'm hearing so far is convincing me that they can see the error in TROS, and how unsatisfying it was - except maybe for the only bright light in all this for me: RJ's future Star Wars project. Not even sure if that is a trilogy now or what since that is just too structured for Star wars these days apparently.

When is Celebration 2020?
I'll keep one ear on SW news but I won't be booking my ticket to Galaxy's Edge anymore, or paying for Disney + anytime soon. No spending $$ on books anymore. I'm done. Not buying the TROS novelisation...
Okay I'll get the TROS dvd though they can squeeze one more profit from me because I want the full set haaaa.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 4:18 am

Il probably get the art book for Ben Solo pics, but nothing else.
If there's one thing I regret, it's repeatedly defending the film makers to the haters.
Rey is NOT a Mary Sue.
JJ has NOT destroyed Star Wars.
Reylo will be the heart and soul of the ST.

And....
We get five minutes of Reylo as a sop, then they kill off the best character.
Rey becomes Mary Rey Sue Palpwalker.
JJ has well and truly destroyed Star Wars.

If he always meant for Ben to die, then I believe his plan was to completely erase the entire Skywalker/Solo line. This is why Kylo kills Han at the beginning. Why Kylo once again starts out with his mask. JJs plan was to start all over again with new characters. Which is fine.....but they did not have to kill the legacy characters. Rian actually gave us hope with TLJ.
The sad fact is, I now have to agree with the haters. They truly have destroyed SW.
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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 11 Jan 2020, 9:20 pm

@DeeBee

More later (cooking dinner), but here you go!

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@DeeBee again— edited to add: I wrote and politely asked them to bring back Ben Solo and continue his story. Also, good question about the bet! My 8th grader said I won— Hayden was in there— but I called it a tie because it was just his voice. They really missed an opportunity there. (Understatement of the century— the whole film was one missed opportunity after another.)
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Post by Teo oswald on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 9:46 am

there is a rumor that Disney will return Ben Solo with Rey Skywalker in 2021, it is not known in what form of novel, look or TV series. it is not known if Ben Solo is a force ghost or if he is still trapped in the world between worlds. If Disney wants to return a beloved character, Disney will do it Smile
 
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Post by vaderito on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 9:54 am

The "rumor" is someone making sith up.

Whatever the future of SW is, they can't count on me to care for the trio movie or any combo of these characters or either individually. I didn't see TROS in the theater once I found out from leaks that Ben Solo died and the movie was trio fest. I saw a quality cam rip and trio was awful. hard pass on any future with them.

also, new human characters were non-entities so hard pass to anything with them as well.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 16 Jan 2020, 10:24 am

@vaderito wrote:The "rumor" is someone making sith up.

Whatever the future of SW is, they can't count on me to care for the trio movie or any combo of these characters or either individually. I didn't see TROS in the theater once I found out from leaks that Ben Solo died and the movie was trio fest. I saw a quality cam rip and trio was awful. hard pass on any future with them.

also, new human characters were non-entities so hard pass to anything with them as well.

Which is exactly what I feel
I lost one of my beloved cats on Xmas day 2018. My dad got her for me three years before he died, so she was my last link to him. I lost another dear cat in April last year.
A month later, I lost my mum.

This was followed by a medical diagnosis of a spinal condition which means I'll never be able to work again.

TROS was meant to be an uplifting bit of escapism, something I could escape into.
It broke my heart.
SW always meant a lot to me. As a kid it got me through years of bullying at school, and having few friends - I was much later diagnosed autistic. I never, ever thought it would end on such a flat note. Not only because they chose to kill off my favourite character, after dramatically cutting his screen time, but because they've wiped out the last descendant of the original heroes. And sadly likeable though they are, Finn, Rey, and Poe aren't a patch on Kylo. Where I loved watching the Han/Leia/Luke interaction in the OT all I felt with this lot is ',please get lost so I can see more of Kylo!'

As a result when Rey claims the title - I actually HATED her. Not Daisy's fault, but Rey by then was so good to be true I lost interest in her. It doesn't help that I've recently watched The Witcher on Netflix, and I much prefer Yennifer. Rey could have been like that, in better hands..

The worst thing is, the original and prequel films are irrevocably tainted now, for me.
All I'll think is how hard they worked, how much they sacrificed, yet Palpatine won. He destroyed the Skywalkers.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Sat 01 Feb 2020, 12:46 pm

Ok not sure whether to post this stuff here but since it’s about future of the franchise etc and where it’s headed I suppose this thread could be a predictions or theory type thread too.
Ok so project luminous- not posting this in official project luminous thread we have since it’s not further info but speculation . Project luminous is what is going to usher in the next phase of Star Wars films and media . The one thing I’ve been trying to come to terms with the last couple of weeks is that Star Wars physics and galaxy may not work like ours . It’s a different galaxy . For a start there is the world between worlds which gives many possibilities for Ben solo’s return but there’s other things have been thinking about too - force ghosts and how this seems to be the land of ghosts possibly adhered to from the Hebrew Bible . Vader himself says in the book lords of the sith when he’s at a twilek celebration that they are all ghosts - like it’s suddenly dawned on him and he can see through the charade . Then we have the dead speak at the beginning of the crawl for TROS and all the underworld imagery plus han being “ a memory “ of Ben solo’s when he appears and little Anakin being told in phantom menace “ your focus determines your reality “. Almost as if what you will is what you create and the world you live in . Skywalkers ( chosen ones /the first /alphas / God/The force ) are the first to attain
this divine power and they pass this legacy on with all their memories ( passing the torch /flame ) to Rey by the end . Anakin the father , Luke the son and Ben the spirit that lives on in rey .So Rey is adopted into the legacy just like we all will be if this is the underworld and our journey goes through something similar . At first I thought this is pretty miserable since though Ben lives on in Rey through her so she’s not alone ( like God/Higgs boson /the force in every living thing ) he’s not with her physically but that’s because I was thinking of how we can’t see Ben there and we are judging it by the laws and physics of our world .
However what if it isn’t like our world and it is explored like for instance the dark materials world . I read these books years ago by Philip Pullman and it’s recently been turned into a wonderful ( well I think so ) tv series by the bbc/HBO and the whole daemon and human concept is just urgh wonderful . What if they go down this route or something similar . I’ve been hearing rumours that Ben solo will return but they are going to do something different with him something we’ve never seen before in Star Wars . In the comics lately they are sure exploring the idea of the shadow big time . Also I remember the interviews way back in 2015 where Adam driver talked about how the helmet had its eyes taken away to make it look like a void and how kylo was carrying not only the legacy but the weight of human history thats why his costume looks frayed and unrefined . He is like the messiah carrying the sins or weight of humanity on his back - all the suffering and pain . He is like the dark half of reys soul . A reflection of Rey . Dark half of her soul . Her daemon . If Star Wars is a spiritual world this would explain why the Jedi have no need to attain sexual relationships because if the world is literally about finding your other half of your soul /daemon and embracing it and it living as part of you then you would be already complete as they would be your bond mate for life.
Am not explaining this very well but if done properly and similar to northern lights trilogy it could be very beautiful but instead of animals - your daemon is in a form sacred to you ( just like the supreme intellect in marvel is to the kree or God appears as a bridegroom to his beloved bride in Song of Solomon ).
Am going to post a few things- first Star Wars 2 written by Charles soule ( writer of kylo the comic ) who is part of project luminous where you can see exploration of the shadow is happening . Also daemon concept in the Philip Pullman books and also the interview with Adam driver in 2015 about kylo:
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This daemon /human concept is closest I’ve seen to describing the concept of dyad /type of force bond Rey and kylo have which is symbiotic . Yes they might be separated( or joined ) for now and the audience aren’t getting the whole picture but I definitely can see them exploring this further .
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Post by Angharad on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 3:45 am

@AhsokaTano With respect to your theory, I find the idea of Ben's spirit 'living on' in Rey loathsome. Rey wanted Ben in the flesh, and all the implications of life that that entails. Any version of his spirit lingering in her body is a Puritan horror scenario to me.

Ben is, in Jungian terms, Rey's 'shadow' or animus, and she his. That is not analogous however to the daemon concept in His Dark Materials. Even daemons are corporeal and capable of physical contact with their person. There is no precedent for such a concept in the Star Wars universe.

By the way: your screenshots about His Dark Materials contain extreme and unmarked spoilers for anyone who hasn't read the books or watch the show. That's not cool!

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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 6:16 am

@Angharad
Hello Smile not trying to start an argument with anyone as that’s not my intention - just trying to offer thoughts about the shadow and where it could go .This is a forum for sharing thoughts , theories and ideas . That’s why we are here and obviously not everyone is going to agree with everyone else . Theres a lot of grief and anger on this forum lately and was just trying to see if there is a way out that’s all . Some of these ideas I mentioned have been discussed here before in predictions thread and not by me including reylo being two souls in one body like dark crystal ending . We discussed this all months ago so was just regurgitating that idea here ( though that wasn’t my original idea ).
Am sorry if I spoiled dark materials - am not sure how to cover up spoilers in tags lol . Regarding Star Wars setting precedents- we must never presume to know what Star Wars will and won’t do - TROS should have taught us that . They could go any direction . As people have said here - most of us didn’t expect Rey palpatine here . Who knows if in the future they’ll throw at us that Ben had a kid out there somewhere . It’s another universe they could go down any manner of weirdness and introduce concepts we haven’t seen before . Anyway they seem to be following up on physically manifesting the anima and animas because that Star Wars comic seems to suggest Luke also has one by the end . I understand we are all hurting here ( me included ) but just trying to give a bit of hope even if it’s weird because I too am finding it very hard to accept Ben is gone and don’t want to believe it - that’s why am trying to come up with anything no matter how odd , that means he can come back I love youI love you
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 6:53 am

I personally would only be satisfied with an alternative ending. The very sight of the Eternal Twins forever watching over their enemy's grandchild turned child substitute makes me feel sick. It's worse than watching the Lannister twins having coitus.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 7:41 am

@motherofpearl1
I love you I feel you . I know the ideal scenario would have been reylo together and the ending we all wanted but at this point and way am feeling I just would like to know that Ben is ok. Sad ( WBW sets up that possibility). There has to be a reason they didn’t show his force ghost . What they set up with Rey and Ben with the dyad thing is a unique bond . I can’t see how they won’t explore that surely ? There’s just so much we don’t know at this stage . I do feel at times Star Wars should have taken Harry potter’s approach of explaining everything( I love Harry Potter but it does do that and recap what’s going on maybe so that kids - and adults understand what is going on ) and not leaving things up in the air with the nuance - this is what is causing conflict in the fandom to this day with different interpretations. For instance I know so many people who still think rey and Kylo’s Kiss was platonic. I don’t get it . Maybe the novel will explain and clarify things better in March. I just wish things were clarified more and the fandom wasn’t as divided as it is .
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Post by vaderito on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 8:28 am

The only reason why they didn't show his FG is that they wanted "Luke/Leia adopt Rey" fanfic. But thanks to that, they created a loophole for Ben to be somewhere in the Netherworld and where he goes from there is up to them. if they ever pick it up. But yes, the door is (unintentionally) left ajar.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 10:48 pm

@vaderito
I haven't been here for a long time, so I might be totally repetitive here, but Pablo did put a lot of interesting world-between-worlds stuff in that Visual Dictionary. In fact, Exegol itself might be in the WBW. And there was something WBW-ish going on in all those caverns on Exegol. That totally might have been him just going down the rabbit hole of minutiae, or it could have been on purpose to give the Skywalker bloodline a chance to survive. JJ wouldn't know the difference nor care to know the difference. So Pablo could conceivably put lore in there that would help later.

And as maybe an indication that it *might* have been on purpose was something he said on Twitter today.

I can't remember the Twitter rules here, so I won't post anything.

Long story short, somebody took a picture of one of Pablo's private tweets and posted it publicly. He was "joking" about Reylos in terms of what the reshoots covered because a lot of Reylos think that there may have been a happier ending. Well anyway, people on Twitter got crazy pissed, with good reason, and within a few hours there were two damage control tweets.
One said that he, Pablo, pitched the idea the Ben should end up living on Achto at the end of IX, but that it went into the filmmakers' control when production IX started. Now maybe it's all bs, but he may have put the WBW stuff in there to bring back Ben if a future director/writer wants to.

I just realized that this has probably already been written up in another thread, but I will post it regardless.

I apologize for any repetition.

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 12:45 am

Through incompetence, or lack of decisiveness, there's a shocking number of in-world ways which are already established, that Kylo/Ben could partake in the story or even come back eventually. Not sure if I trust those involved to do it correctly, but that's very much the reality at the moment. My question is how much they commit to the revelations and story direction of TROS. Not sure if they afford to alienate people even further. But I also can't see LF striking the movie from canon. Though it would be hilarious if they straight up just ignored it without acknowledging it, as if it never happened. Because honestly, even the good or enjoyable parts are not salvageable from the far larger problems that affect the entire story, all the characters, and the themes around it. This is some long term damage caused here, and I'm not sure the few people who made these decisions even knew or cared. They really thought the audience wouldn't notice?
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 4:10 am

They can actually retcon a *ton* of stuff by making the Emperor a liar. They could go back to the Rian parentage. They can take it so far as to have the Emperor put all those Jedi voices in her head. They could argue that all the Sith actually did get into her head and could make the Bad Religious Artifact Twins be a hallucination. Rey could be a ticking time bomb and it could be Ben whose has to save her. The stupid Jedi Leia would be difficult to retcon, which sucks, but they can do a lot.
Sure it would be major whiplash, but so was TROS. And the whiplash would be worth cleaning some of this up.
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