Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars...

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Post by Acritiqua on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 10:39 am

What were they trying to do anyway? I really don't understand what is going on with franchises. It's like they are effigies that those with control over want to burn down for all to watch. The ST serves to destroy the OT, both its ending and its characters, so they will be finally no more. In doing so it feels like death and the shroud falls over their new characters as well. All that's left to do is bury it. Bury them all.

They filled most of the new characters with the souls of the old ones, therefore they have nothing of their own. It's really fitting this whole thing ends with revealing it all happened because they resurrected Palpatine's corpse. TROS is a Star Wars zombie and the sequel trilogy is as well at this point.

Why is this the way they feel they need to go? Why can't they simply make a new story with new characters? They can't leave the past because they lack imagination. They destroy the past or attempt to rewrite it because they don't want it. What do they want?

The future of Star Wars is really what it was after the prequels. It's dead in the water and a few shows survived, little lifeboats waiting to connect to something that is actually good perhaps someday in the future when someone has a real vision.

ETA: Not to imply there wasn't a real vision for the prequels, as there was one.
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:22 pm

I also question why they allowed themselves to be cornered like this, and with little potential to branch off of the ST. Isn't the point of a franchise to be as big and far-reaching as possible?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, should they ever approach the ST characters/era again, I don't want it to be soon. Get far enough away from TROS that people won't care as much if it eventually gets retconned. I do think these characters should be done justice, I just don't trust everyone right now to do it well, and there's not a ton of current demand for it either. Because honestly, what was done with TROS casts a shadow over all of SW, especially the saga, it really isn't salvageable. The rest of SW, for all it's faults, is the part worth saving. Am so glad they're just backing off the movie altogether. I doubt JJ will even come out to promote the home video/blu-ray release, which should be announced soon.

They very well might do KOTOR. Dunno if the Rian thing will happen given they're taking a break from movies, and Knives Out 2 is a go. Someone who isn't D&D could do the origin of the Jedi, but not sure who I would trust with something that delicate. Even before TROS, they had clearly stated many times that future movies would be unconnected to the saga. They knew the gravy train would run out eventually.

Ironically, most of the non-TROS things LF has done have been well received, including Mando, Fallen Order, GE/the new ride, at least some of the EU, the Resistance cartoon (for the few people who could see it, but at least they're getting the rest of it on D+ quickly), excitement for TCW, the immersive hotel thing, and Obi-Wan. Just saw Ewan in Birds of Prey, he's just so darn good. Look at him being in two different franchises. Smile
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:49 pm

TROS writes further sequels into a corner because it basically defeated the big evil. so they are either going to do smaller-scale movies, in which case focus on just 1 character instead of more is better, or they'll take time to invent a new enemy that is completely different from Empire/FO/Palpy/Snoke and make it big scale again. I honestly don't see either scenario as viable. The latter is something they could simply do with new characters in a far future timeline so no need for dusting off the trio and/or Ben Solo for nostalgia sake (which wouldn't be as big as OT nostalgia anyway). The former is pretty much spin-off(s) unconnected to the main storyline so a risk like Solo. which they are not willing to take, hence hastily scrapping OB1 movie and transforming it into a D+ show (now some rumors suggest they may try to revert it into a movie after all).
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Post by Acritiqua on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 1:35 pm

I wonder if they could do something with the KOTOR era. I think if they did they really would need to try to have it be something self-contained, a new thing for people to fall in love with using old Star Wars concepts in part, but something that doesn't draw people in for Star Wars concepts or nostalgia, but for world building unique to this new (old) era and GOOD character development. That means actually thoroughly thinking about the characters and why they are compelling, and actually building them psychologically. Ben Solo was, in my opinion, the only new sequel character built that well, which isn't to say I wouldn't prefer he was even better built as a character. TROS in a way took away from most of the characters in my opinion. It reduced their significance in the story in favor of making them legacy vessels, and Rey's character was at the center of that. It affected her character worse than Kylo's in my opinion because she didn't have as much development as he did coming into TROS (a great weakness) and she was expected to be the new Legacy (so every legacy thing ever falls on her).

If they did KOTOR, I feel a trap to avoid is locking oneself into the "canon" of the games or any books that were written. I don't feel like characters like Revan or Bastila or Carth are set in stone, and they don't need to explain themselves in the films if these characters aren't there or are different (because that wouldn't be self-contained anymore). Honest marketing would help for this as well. If something isn't like what it was before, simply say that. Say it is based on old KOTOR canon but is not a reproduction of it. A reproduction after all is boring. I would hate for instance to have the entire KOTOR game in movie form. I've played the game. That story is covered.

However, characters like Revan and Bastila can be very interesting and I'd be happy to see them in a movie. But if there are completely new or different takes on them, that's fine. From playing the game I think the characters are a bit lacking. The psychology of Revan isn't clear because s/he's a self-insert. Bastila has some kind of boring things like her family background drama. They are game characters and they have a lot of room for character development or even reimagining because of that.

Randomly, I've always thought it would be nice to have a Star Wars movie or series similar to Black Mirror: Bandersnatch (only way more interesting) in that interactive whichway style. It would need to be used sparingly, but it's something that could help the Star Wars fractured fan base if there were a couple Star Wars films/series in which the audience can literally choose their own adventure. Then they can't fight so much about it and about the outcomes.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 1:46 pm

@Acritiqua wrote:  TROS in a way took away from most of the characters in my opinion. It reduced their significance in the story in favor of making them legacy vessels, and Rey's character was at the center of that. It affected her character worse than Kylo's in my opinion because she didn't have as much development as he did coming into TROS (a great weakness) and she was expected to be the new Legacy (so every legacy thing ever falls on her).

@Acritiqua

this is a great point. TROS was by far the biggest Rey movie as far as screen time goes but it wasn't really about her but about the legacy. It tried too hard to be the end of 9 movies and forgot that it should be end of ST first, end of 9 movies second. this is why everyone ended up a "legacy vessel" more or less rather than a character in their own right. And why we got that awful Tatooine ending that meant nothing to Rey but only to fans of the saga. heck, even FG had no reason to be happy there. Luke actively tried to leave it and Leia was a bikini toy for Jabba. oof.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 3:06 pm

TRoS is the movie/story I expected TFA to be when it was first announced, which actually seeing it and the details that got snuck into that movie (the re-evaluation of youthful idealism, the "machine" is the enemy, downtrodden banding together, the burden of legacy, Rey and Ben's star crossed connection between 2 lonely nerds) and TLJ were above and beyond my expectations. Still no clue how in the larger, at least financial scheme of things, they couldn't have just rode that out and finished the Saga with a story that did justice to those ideas and themes. Even if they had more angry old school fans, so what? As somebody said back in the early days of this community, there's already 40 years' worth of movies, books, and games for them to obsess over (and now a streaming service and overpriced mediocre theme park), leave the ST alone for other fans to enjoy. Too bad Disney didn't listen to that advice. Honestly, no clue why they made these decisions which sets them back to the point they were at prior to the ST launching, where only diehards will care and any new content will be the same boring world building that already happened in the EU. Versus if they'd allowed these characters to breathe and had the courage to openly say older fans who felt left out already had their stories, they could've left the ST at a point where there'd at least be the option of future novels/comics around Rey and Ben.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 3:43 pm

I think it's because JJ and CT are old fans and as such they gravitated towards pleasing old fans such as themselves rather than making ST appealing to new fans. So both their scripts let the new fans down.

I think that TFA did a bad job for it made elements that appealed to old fans clash with elements that appealed to new fans and big reason for it is that the movie was too vague and didn't want to clarify any relationship. If that was clear, if rey was a palaptine from the start, and the main dynamic was revealed to be a good palaptine and a bad Skywalker, things would be different. Old fans would get their legacies and explanation for immense powers and that would satisfy, while new fans would get a different light/dark dynamic that what's been done before and some other things. But what can we do? ship has sailed.
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:35 pm

There's so many ways TROS as an end to the 9-part saga could have worked, but it would rely heavily on the PT, and we can't have that now can we?
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 6:11 pm

Also, in terms of what does well in SW and what they'll focus on going forward.

Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 3 Scree704

On the same note, I looked on the Disney store site to compare, and there's almost as many products available for Mando as TROS, and far more for TLJ. Saw someone comment a couple weeks ago say they worked at Disney store and that the spoiler filled TROS merch they expected never came.
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Post by DeeBee on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 6:22 pm

Interesting thoughts all! A few brief comments..
-we already have a Star Wars choose your own adventure- the ST.

-I’m thinking TROS wasn’t influenced by fan boys, it was written by and directed by fanboys, who were given the freedom to do what they wanted without enough care, because huge profits were guaranteed. So go for it fanboys...

- I agree, anything post TROS is going to be unrelated to the Skywalker story. I’ve only seen TROS once at this point and maybe once the DVD is out I might be less confused, but I think the state of the galaxy is still very much in chaos. Palps is gone, clone puppet snoke is gone, Kylo and Hux gone, the final order fleet is destroyed along with Pryde, but what about the rest of the first order fleet? They are spread out across the galaxy enforcing tyranny and control/ order no? They are without a leader... but they are still around no? maybe I’m not understanding it was a confusing ride!
They could do a movie that is about the same phase of war as the aftermath book trilogy without needing to address any Skywalkers stuff now..
They could focus a story on Rey and what’s next- cos I’m confused about that. All I know is she chose to take on the last name, the Jedi all live in her and she’s on Tatooine with her new lightsaber...sooooo yeah... that’s it lol. Right now I find her story line annoying, TROS killed Rey’s character for me and I loved her journey up until TROS. The ST was not kind to her character...

There’s always the tale of Claude Skywalker. The slug who chose his own family. Warm fuzzies right there. ( yes, sarcasm!)

- KK’s comments about SW not having source material is v interesting- given legends can be drawn from, but my impression is that the franchise wanted to seal off the saga, and now they are in a phase where anything completely new  is going to be more than 2-3 yrs away from being announced. Because of the way she spoke about world building and convincing TPTB that it cannot be rushed and on same timeline as marvel because it’s all original.
Just my 2 cents!
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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 8:49 pm

It's honestly really hard to predict what the cinematic future of SW could be now that the reactions to TRoS have paralysed the decision-making even more so than before. I don't know if they'll ever have the confidence to abandon the ties to the OT completely; yes fans love the KOTOR era but will the general audience bite?
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 1:34 am

It's funny that they tried to please 'old' fans, because I'm one of them, and all this film did for me was destroy my love for the franchise that's lasted forty two years.
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Post by unicorn on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 3:38 am

Same here. Crying or Very sad

I think it tries to appeal to a special kind of "old fan": male, OT fan and unable/unwilling to develop from their decades old childish headcanons.
Ironically a lot of them dislike the ST as a whole anyway.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 3:48 am

The thread recently posted in the spoiler discussion sums up pretty well all the regression that happened with this movie. I don't think they were necessarily trying to please old fans but I think they were definitely baiting a very conservative branch, those who think that the Jedi were all good, that there was no need for a refined sight of their philosophy, that it's all about dark vs. light, that there is no need for more inclusivity, that Rey should never have used the lightsaber until she was worthy of it, that she should be the model "heir" of the mighty Skywalker with no place for romance, sex and family, etc...That movie is a political tool for whatever purpose was behind. J.J. sayong something like "If you like this movie, you have questionable taste" didn't sound really like a joke. I don't believe either that actors being obviously mad at Disney is just because the movie was bad in the end. It's all the more amazing that Disney/ABC had no problem with choosing the Reylo kiss in a room full of people who got huge backlash from this specific "conservative" branch (Rian, Laura, Adam, Kelly).
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 4:00 am

Agreed.
A lot of people both on here and tumblr have mentioned the 'warning signs' we should have noticed regarding Rey's hairdo and virginal white costume. But I also remember JJ making a point that Ben Solo would be keeping his shirt firmly on in this film.
Maybe we should have realised back then that the beautifully done sexuality we saw in TLJ would not be something we'd see in TROS. And I suspect that was more to do with Terrio and Abrams's personal fan**** and their fantasy where Luke and Leia were 'the' SW couple, with Rey as their daughter, than Disney.
Disney after all gave us the Will/Elizabeth sexy scenes in Pirates of the Caribbean at World's End.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 9:56 am

They totally wanted to please THE Fans. It doesn't matter if they love or hate TROS or dislike ST, it's a matter of showing that THE Fans still hold the power, that they are important.

I think, knock on wood, that the fans are going to feel...listened to,” Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy said. “I think that’s always been an important thing to Lucasfilm is the fans are every bit as important to us as what any of us do. And I hope they feel that way with [The Rise of Skywalker].
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 11 Feb 2020, 10:26 am

I guess launching online hate campaigns that send a director death threats, trolling people for loving a fantasy 'ship' by calling them supporters of abuse, and spouting such file abusive filth against an Asian American actress that she cancels her Instagram account......
Actually works.
Don't be dignified in your disappointment,folks. Send horrible threats online, be abusive, be bigoted. And they'll listen to your demands and cater to them.

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Post by DeeBee on Sat 22 Feb 2020, 8:27 pm

Whoo.hoo.
https://variety.com/2020/film/news/star-wars-movie-jd-dillard-1203511055/
Is all the info in this article legit? That part about KOTOR is that confirmed?

Edited to add:
Watched bbc interview with Iger tonight. Titled ‘Making the mouse roar’. Nothing encouraging in here to my ears.
He noted that content is of central importance to Disney success. But it also had to be quality content. (Irony)
He said they love brands that people love and will find multiple ways to consume. So yeah buy marvel and Star Wars and pump out the content... people will eat it up regardless of the quality.

The interviewer challenged Iger with a Scorsese quote about superficial super hero movies- his reaction was priceless! You can see his reaction here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000b0c9

Any one else watch this interview?


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Post by snufkin on Sun 23 Feb 2020, 11:24 pm

The future of the movies at the moment seems to be hiring JJ's former receptionist/nanny/protege to direct a new movie (though only reported by the Hollywood Reporter, not confirmed by LFL).

Otherwise the Onion just ran this essay about ESB and it gets to the heart of why both it and TLJ are great movies which moved the franchise and storytelling forward. Which unfortunately TRoS just retreated to safe ground

Sequels got deeper and more ambitious with The Empire Strikes Back

if The Empire Strikes Back doesn’t represent a new kind of filmmaking, it does show a different approach, one that would take a while to truly catch on. Before The Empire Strikes Back, the whole idea of the sequel was to essentially retell the story of the first movie, adding extra wrinkles but hitting the same reassuring beats. In Jaws 2, Chief Brody once again goes into maritime battle with a giant killer shark. In Rocky II, Rocky Balboa once again fights Apollo Creed. Neither film is anywhere near as good as its predecessor, but there’s precious little evidence that anyone even tried to make those films as good as their predecessors—though Jaws 2 at least has the fun bit where the shark eats the helicopter. The sequels are simply good enough. They’re victory laps.

The Empire Strikes Back is not a victory lap. Instead, Lucas and his collaborators took the Godfather Part II approach. Empire imagines the larger world around that first Star Wars movie—the circumstances that led to the events of the film, the ripple effects of the climactic battle, the changing relationships of the characters. Empire introduces new landscapes: a frozen wasteland, a marsh, a majestically psychedelic city in the sky, a gigantic space slug’s digestive tract. It brings in characters that, in their own ways, are nearly as iconic as any from the first picture: Yoda, Lando Calrissian, Emperor Palpatine, Boba Fett. Even after the world-historic success of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back is a bigger creative swing than anyone could’ve reasonably expected. Empire takes the leap of imagining a film as part of a grand, overarching continuing narrative—sort of like the old film serials that inspired Star Wars in the first place.

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Post by Lily Snape on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 12:33 am

@snufkin

(You mean AV Club, right? Although now I need to go look up what The Onion has to say about TROS. If they haven’t made fun of “Reeeyyyyyy!”, they’re lagging.)
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Post by snufkin on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 1:11 am

@Lily Snape LOL, yes the AV Club. I have my doubts they'd make fun of it seeing as how it's part of the nerd/fandom pundit class though the special Star Wars correspondent for their sister site, IO9, did confess that it was very hard for him to admit that he actually dislikes TRoS as a first time ever for a Star War.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 2:26 am

@snufkin wrote:The future of the movies at the moment seems to be hiring JJ's former receptionist/nanny/protege to direct a new movie (though only reported by the Hollywood Reporter, not confirmed by LFL).

Otherwise the Onion just ran this essay about ESB and it gets to the heart of why both it and TLJ are great movies which moved the franchise and storytelling forward. Which unfortunately TRoS just retreated to safe ground

Sequels got deeper and more ambitious with The Empire Strikes Back

if The Empire Strikes Back doesn’t represent a new kind of filmmaking, it does show a different approach, one that would take a while to truly catch on. Before The Empire Strikes Back, the whole idea of the sequel was to essentially retell the story of the first movie, adding extra wrinkles but hitting the same reassuring beats. In Jaws 2, Chief Brody once again goes into maritime battle with a giant killer shark. In Rocky II, Rocky Balboa once again fights Apollo Creed. Neither film is anywhere near as good as its predecessor, but there’s precious little evidence that anyone even tried to make those films as good as their predecessors—though Jaws 2 at least has the fun bit where the shark eats the helicopter. The sequels are simply good enough. They’re victory laps.

The Empire Strikes Back is not a victory lap. Instead, Lucas and his collaborators took the Godfather Part II approach. Empire imagines the larger world around that first Star Wars movie—the circumstances that led to the events of the film, the ripple effects of the climactic battle, the changing relationships of the characters. Empire introduces new landscapes: a frozen wasteland, a marsh, a majestically psychedelic city in the sky, a gigantic space slug’s digestive tract. It brings in characters that, in their own ways, are nearly as iconic as any from the first picture: Yoda, Lando Calrissian, Emperor Palpatine, Boba Fett. Even after the world-historic success of Star Wars, The Empire Strikes Back is a bigger creative swing than anyone could’ve reasonably expected. Empire takes the leap of imagining a film as part of a grand, overarching continuing narrative—sort of like the old film serials that inspired Star Wars in the first place.


TLJ for me is one of the greatest movies ever made.
I never liked the Canto Bight scenes much, but tbh I'm pretty sure that in my case, it's because I just wanted to get back to Reylo!

On repeated viewings, you actually get to see the importance of the scene. CB is a place of corrupt luxury, where it's wealth and comfort hides it's true face of war profiteering and money is truly made by nefarious purposes. It's citizens enjoy their days gambling and indulging while behind the scenes animals are brutalised for profit, cared for by abused child slaves. And all of this going on under the New Republic.

We get the to truly see Kylo Ren's tragic background, and the abuse he's suffered under Snoke. Sexy as the shirtless scene is I suspect Rian didn't just do it to show off Adam's bod, gorgeous though it is, but because he wanted the audience to see his scars. In this new, grittier universe, wounds, both psychological and physical, leave their mark. We are shown how Rey's desperate need for her parents drives her motivations, how Finn just wants to run away from war and conflict, after being practically raised with his sole purpose to be a soldier. We see Poe's immaturity, but also his humanity - he's not Han Solo, but a driven, almost fanatical man whose determination to bring down the FO creepily mirrors Saw Guerrera.
We see how good guys and bad guys stand on either side of a line that gets blurrier. We see our characters making terrible mistakes, from Poe's well-intentioned but pointless crusade at the beginning to Luke's inadvertently driving his nephew to the Dark, Kylo's botched proposal, Rey's lightsabre gaffe. We see the Resistance abandoned after Leia's desperate call for help is ignored.
Every character and actor in this film gets a chance to shine. And they do.
TLJ was a masterpiece, an far from Rian 'writing them into a corner' he practically handed DLF the foundations of a truly epic conclusion to SW. And they threw it into the trash compactor?
For what? A handful of toxic bigots? To promote an equally toxic brand of 'feminity'? Or so their third rate writer and director could fulfill their personal childhood dreams?
Whatever, TROS is a cheap takeaway after a rich four course banquet. This fan here will never be able to forgive them for it.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 7:34 am

We will know more about Project Luminous this evening (7pm PT), which may give a hint/point towards the future of SW.

I am intrigued; however, it's guarded. Why they teased this for so long (since San Diego CC) is...risky (and I will selfishly say annoying lol). It's risky because it may not live up to that level of hype for those who are excited.
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Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 3 Empty Re: Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars...

Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 7:59 am

There are rumours it's going to be set 300 years ago and it's something to do with the Jedi and the Sith.
I just wish they'd never made TROS. It's tainted everything SW, like someone pouring oil into a spring. Even if it's years into the past, I still can't get around the fact that my favourite characters are gone for good, and there's nothing left of them. I've had people argue that the future is now Rey and possibly Finn as her apprentice, but I have zero enthusiasm or investment in either character now, partly because TROS made them dull and partly because they seem to have been given the 'spotlight' at the cost of Ben Solo.
I think it's because my love for SW stemmed from my genuine affection for Han, Leia and Luke, and then for Kylo/Ben. Even my affection for Rey was mostly due to Reylo.


I'm honestly not bothered what happens with SW now. And I'm just physically too old to get excited about what will happen ten years from now.
Never mind. Maybe younger fans will like it.
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Post by Sacrebleu on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 9:31 am

@californiagirl wrote:Also, in terms of what does well in SW and what they'll focus on going forward.

Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 3 Scree704

On the same note, I looked on the Disney store site to compare, and there's almost as many products available for Mando as TROS, and far more for TLJ. Saw someone comment a couple weeks ago say they worked at Disney store and that the spoiler filled TROS merch they expected never came.
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I have a smallish collection of Pops.  I wanted to get Rey with her new yellow-bladed lightsaber and ideally Ben Solo with either Anakin's lightsaber or a blaster.  Nope.  The only TROS Rey available is with the blue lightsaber or Dark Rey with the red lightsaber.  The only TROS Kylo is in the new helmet.  Meanwhile, there are NINE different variations of the Mando character alone, Covert Mando, Heavy Infantry Mando, Death Watch Mando, Gauntlet Mando, etc.  How can you have the very last scene of a 9 film saga be the new Jedi revealing her new lightsaber and not have merchandise for it?
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