Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:26 am

@Acritiqua
With the prequels and Clone Wars series we actually get to see Anakin address things that bothered him, things he wanted to achieve or things he wanted to escape, factors that would slowly close in on him and create the frame or circumstance that lead him to making severely damaging choices. In essence, we also got to see more introspection in regards to Anakin as a character and explore character relationships - we know more or have a more definitive idea about what he is feeling or what his motives are.  I think that the Kylo Ren comics aim is to similarly show the things that factored into Ben's fall, or set the scape for why he goes down the path he does. The films, novels and even this comic series still give less in defining Ben's motives, thoughts or feelings. We do learn more about him from these comics, but i think it could be further explored (but execution counts). I  sometimes feel as if Ben is a character the writers and Lucasfilm might want to keep more ambiguous in certain aspects - but I think they needed to really explore how he related to all of his family. And like you mention, the comics do confirm that Snoke/Palpatine was a voice/presence in his head (and for a very long time) - which in my opinion is one of the more frightening concepts in Star Wars. That alone, to me - is already nearly condemning, because, Snoke was seemingly present for so long. And I agree that it is something they could explore further, because did Luke and Leia know or sense this at the time? Did Ben ever mention it or was he so used to this voice he never did? They always alluded to Snoke's presence in Ben's mind in the films, but never the extent.

P.S. (I still don't understand test tube Snoke - was he just created by the emperor or was he a literal puppet?Confus )
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:56 am

@Saracene wrote:I guess there's always an option of bringing Ben back hundreds of years into the future, in a whole new different setting?

That would mean no Rey, sadly, but to be honest I can't see them backtracking on Rey's TRoS ending and letting her have her happy ending with Ben instead.
@Saracene

In the way of Ben being alive somehow, I've entertained this terribly generic idea of the Force possibly spiriting Ben away to deal with an urgent cosmic threat (e.g. the Grysks, the Vong or some vague Lovecraftian eldritch) on one side of the galaxy. With Rey left where she is also needed - she senses this threat, but feels she needs to make people aware of this thing that's coming. Then she and Ben meet up again when all goes to hell. I'm sure someone's already written this as fanfic somewhere - but at least in this scenario he's alive and Rey's not sliding down dunes for the rest of her life tongue
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Post by Acritiqua on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 10:51 am

@Darth Snoopy wrote:@Acritiqua
I  sometimes feel as if Ben is a character the writers and Lucasfilm might want to keep more ambiguous in certain aspects - but I think they needed to really explore how he related to all of his family. And like you mention, the comics do confirm that Snoke/Palpatine was a voice/presence in his head (and for a very long time) - which in my opinion is one of the more frightening concepts in Star Wars. That alone, to me - is already nearly condemning, because, Snoke was seemingly present for so long. And I agree that it is something they could explore further, because did Luke and Leia know or sense this at the time? Did Ben ever mention it or was he so used to this voice he never did? They always alluded to Snoke's presence in Ben's mind in the films, but never the extent.

P.S. (I still don't understand test tube Snoke - was he just created by the emperor or was he a literal puppet?Confus )
@Darth Snoopy Oh yes, I agree it's terrifying. TLJ showed that if Snoke wants in someone's head, they can't keep him out. What he did to Rey and how there was nothing she could do to stop it shows something of what Ben was up against. His mind was being quite literally hacked by a dark side master. He obviously did manage to section part of it off which was why Snoke couldn't see his intention to kill him, but I imagine it took many years and a lot of fracturing of his psyche to make a section that Snoke can't enter.

It makes me wonder about the conversation between him and the other Jedi student in the comics, about the lock box in his head that no one can see inside. However, I imagine there is more than one fragmented piece of his identity. He has to hide the darkness in his mind (the entire dark twisted connection with Snoke) from Luke, and eventually he sectioned off a space just where he can have his own headspace to protect him from Snoke. It also seems from the comics that he doesn't feel very good about himself in general. I wonder if he just wishes he didn't come from such an "important" family.  

I feel fairly unsatisfied with this story because I still don't really know the story, however. I would absolutely love if the comic series ended with the very first time Snoke entered his mind as the day everything changed, or something dramatic that goes back to what changed in him that alarmed his parents. Another missing piece, is why did Luke give up so quickly. Did he simply disappear off to Ahch-to after he emerged from the rubble even while his surviving students were pursuing Ben with little chance against him?

I'm also confused by the Snoke clones in tubes. I assumed that the clones probably don't live very long as that was a feature of the Jango Fett clones Palpatine had made. Those clones were also to some extent, programmed, and I imagine Snoke clones were as well. I have no idea how many Snoke clones were used to corrupt Kylo. I imagine a sequence of them, perhaps each one not living much longer than a year. Maybe the clones are programmed with an entire illusory identity but very little capacity for self-awareness. Snoke's power may mostly come from Palpatine without him being any the wiser. Snoke is a puppet but who knows how the puppeteering works. I don't know if Snoke speaks in Ben's mind channeling Palpatine, or if Snoke isn't really in Ben's mind at all and it is always simply Palpatine without a go-between.

I found it disappointing in TROS that Kylo doesn't seem to react to Palpatine telling him he's every voice he's ever heard in his head. But it may be because it became apparent to Kylo earlier that there is something fishy about Snoke, that his power comes from another source as though he is not the true dark side power Ben had been dealing with all along. As an imitation of a dark side master, Snoke might have certain tells that upon examination don't make sense, especially if there have been multiple Snokes who are all supposed to be perceived as one continuous individual. It may be Kylo doesn't react because he already knows. He's had a long time to grapple with Snoke in his mind and to try to identify what he is and what his weaknesses are.

The main issue with Palpatine/Snoke is that it's a retcon of sorts and it doesn't really make sense because it was not intended as the story in the beginning and apparently there wasn't much thought put into it. It felt like TROS tried to gloss over anything that required an explanation. "Somehow, Palpatine is back."
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:23 pm

@Acritiqua wrote:
@Darth Snoopy wrote:@Acritiqua
I  sometimes feel as if Ben is a character the writers and Lucasfilm might want to keep more ambiguous in certain aspects - but I think they needed to really explore how he related to all of his family. And like you mention, the comics do confirm that Snoke/Palpatine was a voice/presence in his head (and for a very long time) - which in my opinion is one of the more frightening concepts in Star Wars. That alone, to me - is already nearly condemning, because, Snoke was seemingly present for so long. And I agree that it is something they could explore further, because did Luke and Leia know or sense this at the time? Did Ben ever mention it or was he so used to this voice he never did? They always alluded to Snoke's presence in Ben's mind in the films, but never the extent.

P.S. (I still don't understand test tube Snoke - was he just created by the emperor or was he a literal puppet?Confus )
@Darth Snoopy Oh yes, I agree it's terrifying. TLJ showed that if Snoke wants in someone's head, they can't keep him out. What he did to Rey and how there was nothing she could do to stop it shows something of what Ben was up against. His mind was being quite literally hacked by a dark side master. He obviously did manage to section part of it off which was why Snoke couldn't see his intention to kill him, but I imagine it took many years and a lot of fracturing of his psyche to make a section that Snoke can't enter.

It makes me wonder about the conversation between him and the other Jedi student in the comics, about the lock box in his head that no one can see inside. However, I imagine there is more than one fragmented piece of his identity. He has to hide the darkness in his mind (the entire dark twisted connection with Snoke) from Luke, and eventually he sectioned off a space just where he can have his own headspace to protect him from Snoke. It also seems from the comics that he doesn't feel very good about himself in general. I wonder if he just wishes he didn't come from such an "important" family.  

I feel fairly unsatisfied with this story because I still don't really know the story, however. I would absolutely love if the comic series ended with the very first time Snoke entered his mind as the day everything changed, or something dramatic that goes back to what changed in him that alarmed his parents. Another missing piece, is why did Luke give up so quickly. Did he simply disappear off to Ahch-to after he emerged from the rubble even while his surviving students were pursuing Ben with little chance against him?

I'm also confused by the Snoke clones in tubes. I assumed that the clones probably don't live very long as that was a feature of the Jango Fett clones Palpatine had made. Those clones were also to some extent, programmed, and I imagine Snoke clones were as well. I have no idea how many Snoke clones were used to corrupt Kylo. I imagine a sequence of them, perhaps each one not living much longer than a year. Maybe the clones are programmed with an entire illusory identity but very little capacity for self-awareness. Snoke's power may mostly come from Palpatine without him being any the wiser. Snoke is a puppet but who knows how the puppeteering works. I don't know if Snoke speaks in Ben's mind channeling Palpatine, or if Snoke isn't really in Ben's mind at all and it is always simply Palpatine without a go-between.

I found it disappointing in TROS that Kylo doesn't seem to react to Palpatine telling him he's every voice he's ever heard in his head. But it may be because it became apparent to Kylo earlier that there is something fishy about Snoke, that his power comes from another source as though he is not the true dark side power Ben had been dealing with all along. As an imitation of a dark side master, Snoke might have certain tells that upon examination don't make sense, especially if there have been multiple Snokes who are all supposed to be perceived as one continuous individual. It may be Kylo doesn't react because he already knows. He's had a long time to grapple with Snoke in his mind and to try to identify what he is and what his weaknesses are.

The main issue with Palpatine/Snoke is that it's a retcon of sorts and it doesn't really make sense because it was not intended as the story in the beginning and apparently there wasn't much thought put into it. It felt like TROS tried to gloss over anything that required an explanation. "Somehow, Palpatine is back."
@Acritiqua

Palpatine's return was definitely a retcon - I personally remember seeing the TROS teaser, and being so excited through all the shots, and as soon as I heard his laugh at the end - I was like - why? Why! Then, I remembered to be reasonable - that it was just a teaser, and the film could be so many things. Ha! Ha (sobs of regret...) I never liked the idea of Palpatine coming back, because it immediately shifts the narrative arcs and victories of all the OT characters and risked Anakin's arc. I remember telling someone, that since they brought the Emperor back, they had to involve Anakin in the force plot. .. And then he got one line. From my perspective, Palpatine being in TROS ruins the intent/impact of Vader saving his son, and overcoming his abuser and also the similar situation of Kylo saving Rey and breaking away from Snokes influence in TLJ. I still enjoy all those moments and respective films, but now, when you watch them - knowing what happens in the last film just undercuts the narrative of those prior. I also wonder if we will get any other Kylo centric material set pre-TFA - and if so how it will be handled. I want to see more of how Ben regarded or acted with his parents, especially Leia, since we never got to see a face to face confrontation or reconciliation between them in the trilogy.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:31 pm

If they ever brought back Rey and tried to fix the mess made of her parentage story constantly changing, it's going to be like the "Han shot first" debate thanks to the endless changes around that point.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 12:58 pm

@snufkin
Yes, Rey Palpatine is set in stone - and if this were somehow changed it would be ridiculous. I do think they may explore who her parents were (will forever side-eye, these loving Palpatines who left their kid on a slavery run dust bowl, with no one to look out for her  scratch - though, they may reframe this or emphasis how desperate they were to keep her out of grandpa's wrinkly clutches) Her being a Palpatine is more a problem in regards to its execution, than it as a concept. I also will always stand by the idea that if she was intended to be related to the Emperor from day one, make her know this, maybe let her hide this from other characters and let that be an in-universe reveal. Let us, the audience know this before the third chapter. It would also not necessitate Palpatine returning, but would mean she, like Kylo - would have to learn to deal with a heavy and burdensome legacy. And though sloppily done in TROS it was kind of meant to be that, she running away from it and he fatalistically latching onto it. They could have had her running from and fighting sith cultists and acolytes, perhaps even new republic people who somehow found out Palpatine had an heir and reacted negatively - like a more severe version of how Leia was treated when the Vader reveal happened in Bloodlines.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 1:11 pm

@Darth Snoopy There were obvious beats in the first movie, starting with the scene of Poe telling BB-8 to flee, which hinted at Rey's abandonment on Jakku having a similar backstory. Which the creative team obviously had different schools of thought and couldn't come to a decision and then commit to it. Hence Darth Exposition telling her "you're a Palpatine, you have his power" after 2 movies and endless debates about who she's related to instead of just allowing her to be her own character. Personally I think it's would've been easiest if they'd just ran with Rey Nobody and use the 3rd movie to reveal that her deadbeat parents (which seriously, you hired Villanelle from Killing Eve to play her mother & then write her as an ninny) had scavenged/stolen the Sith Knife while on Jakku with no clue about its importance/value in revealing that the Emperor was lurking in the shadows. Basic unintended consequences which gives background/context to her abandonment, ties her in with the overarching conflict as somebody whose life was ruined by the schemes of more powerful players, and makes her role in bringing it all down as a nobody all the more ironic/rich. But as it stands, we have all this exposition about the Emperor being her granddad and the entire point of Bloodline was to actually try to imagine/examine the impact of Vader being Leia's biological father, including what happens to Ben. If they ever did anything similar in the future for Rey, I can't imagine being interested in it. Because they toyed with the same idea for Leia in the ST and then just f**ked it up, example #1 being Ben's entire character/fate.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 1:50 pm

@snufkin
Yeah, Rey Nobody was the best option - when considering what TFA & TLJ setup. Too many viewers focused on her origins, going into the trilogy and during; rather than her as a character. I was just examining how Rey Palpatine could have been improved on in execution if that was always/ their longest running intention. I honestly dislike that there was no continuous writing collaborator through this trilogy and that the LF story group, seem to have only managed to play a larger role in maintaining a seeming continuity (in regard to the films) on TLJ with Rian Johnson, but not on TROS.


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Post by snufkin on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 2:07 pm

@Darth Snoopy I'm almost surprised that there wasn't a WTF type explanation from Terrio during the damage control interviews that Rey Palpatine was meant as an homage to how Lucas merged Leia with Nellith, Luke's long lost twin sister who'd been in hiding from the Emperor, in wrapping up the OT. It definitely feels like the output from TFA through Solo was the work of a group that had a commitment to continuity and that something happened (hence the ongoing notices of various LFL & TLJ production members landing at Rian's new production company) behind the scenes is part of why TRoS feels so different. But on par, the entire ST starting with LST's monologue to Ben as Kylo about "you did not rise from the Darkside/Your Family" in retrospect with Rey Palpatine is a central, "What the Hell were you setting up here?" question. Because it's not Rey he was addressing with that line, especially if they were living on the same planet in relative proximity to each other but never crossed paths.
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Post by Acritiqua on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 4:16 pm

I was excited when I learned Palpatine was back as I felt he could bring something to the story even though it had the small (big) issue of how has he returned and how does this not undermine all previous Star Wars. The Chosen One prophesy might have a little wiggle room, but this does make me look at previous Star Wars with confusion whereas before it was clear. I don't for instance know how to reconcile TCW Mortis story with Disney Star Wars. The easiest way for me to do it is to consider Palpatine as having been resurrected from death. His followers brought him back a la Voldemort.

I didn't think it would or should be possible to resurrect someone who was consumed by the dark side because I always saw the dark side as so destructive to one's spirit that it will destroy it entirely if left to take over inside a person. It actually consumes them. But if Palpatine can be resurrected it would mean anyone lost to the dark side can be and they would still be themselves.

The Sith apparently have found a real path to eternity since Palpatine carries all the previous Sith spirits. I am not sure how that works since I can't imagine Sith spirits wanting to all share a body that they don't have any control over. I would expect something more like Momin from the Vader comics. Momin wants his own body so he can act in the tangible world again. I didn't see Momin as the person Momin. I saw that person as dead. The only thing left was a strong imprint on the mask which has its own kind of "sentience." However, I could imagine all these Sith spirits/imprints being prisoners of the living darksider who carries them, forced to serve that person's ends even against their will.

But still, the problem with Sith immortality in which they can be resurrected is that it would suggest the Sith can win on their anti-spiritual path. It suggests they are right about what the dark side can offer them: immortality and everything they want. But I thought the tragedy for people lost to the dark side is that the deeper they go into the dark the more impossible it becomes for them to gain everything they want because they always want more and because this path of grasping erodes them until eventually they become little more than a hollow shell that channels the dark side (a sort of hungry ghost). This was why I thought it made amazing sense how Sidious was described in the ROTS book, as a shadow, as the darkness, as the devil, because he is so hollowed out that he is barely anything more than a vessel for the dark side. The more powerful he becomes, the greater the cost to his being and the more surely his destiny becomes the annihilation of his entire spirit. The dark side is the sure way to lose everything, to always be grasping and dissatisfied, to end in misery, pain and eventually nothingness. It tricks people into thinking it's the other way around, and that's part of what's so sad about what happens to them. But if they can resurrect and achieve immortality, it's not even a trick. It's true. And in my opinion, that should not be the case.

On the other hand, if Palpatine wasn't resurrected from death and in fact didn't die, that of course contradicts The Chosen One ideas. Anakin then never destroyed the Sith and brought balance to the Force at all and that entire Mortis storyline confirming him as this figure and everything else before Disney Star Wars has kind of been retconned. It even would contradict the story of the sequel trilogy itself. Luke said in TLJ that for a while there was balance.

So the problem is that bringing back Palpatine is highly fraught with difficulties with Star Wars canon. There may be clever ways to make it work but TROS simply didn't deliver. It brings Palpatine back with no explanation and it doesn't do anything to fill the conceptual holes left in its wake.

I was also excited about Rey Palpatine but I was interested in TROS then having some manner of relationship between Rey and Palpatine that might enrich both characters, an intense dynamic. But in addition to that not happening, Rey Palpatine remains a terrible retcon that really undoes the message of TLJ. I don't want to spare TLJ criticism here either since it didn't provide a complete enough answer about Rey's origins. It didn't feel like the answer in some ways and I think it was because Rey's character is underdeveloped. I can't reconcile the point of Rey Nobody (that Rey doesn't come from a special lineage or special blood because ANYONE can be the Force hero in a Star Wars story) with Rey Palpatine. I don't know how to have Rey Palpatine and for it not to look like a retcon of TLJ. I don't understand how Rey Palpatine can be considered more powerful in this story than genuine Rey from Nowhere who had to face that her parents actually just dumped her. How TLJ executed this wasn't the most ideal, but it did provide an answer and I think TROS should have tried to elaborate on that answer and make it better, not change it to a difference answer.

Bringing back Palpatine didn't necessitate that Rey be his granddaughter either. Given how little was done with that, it would have been about the same story if she wasn't. The only difference is Rey and Kylo would have to fill their interactions with more interesting conversations than "Rey, you're a Palpatine."
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 14 Feb 2020, 7:47 pm

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Post by snufkin on Sat 15 Feb 2020, 2:55 pm

This should be interesting if somewhat masochistic to read. Because all of the previous Art of books, including Solo, at least had the appearance of trying to tell a consistent/coherent story where references to the original production at least felt more like "this theme/detail was important and we wanted to use it in the new films to reference that point."

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 15 Feb 2020, 3:05 pm

'Evolution? '
More like 'devolution' considering how they comp!lately trashed Rian's far superior film.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 15 Feb 2020, 3:08 pm

[quote="motherofpearl1"]'Evolution? '
More like 'devolution' considering how they comp!etely trashed Rian's far superior film.
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Post by unicorn on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 3:44 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:'Evolution? '
More like 'devolution' considering how they comp!lately trashed Rian's far superior film.
@motherofpearl1

Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation

I don´t know what would be worse: Szostak really believing TROS is an "evolution" from TLJ, or him knowing what he is telling is as crappy as the movie but telling it anyway because of advertising reasons. Evil or Very Mad

Everything around this movie is so bad quality. Like the movie itself.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 4:46 am

You know, it's funny but although there's a lot I hate about TROS - Ben's fate, Kelly's treatment, Rey Palpwalker, character regression - but at the end of the day, what I honestly dislike the most is that its actually a bad film. It's poorly made. People moan about the prequels, but the only really bad thing about them were the scripts. Storywise they were first rate. And there were some great performances. TROS has no plot, bad dialogue, to the point of cringe worthy at times, and is far better suited to a B movie straight to dvd release - in fact, I've seen B movies that were better.
Whoever at heart is responsible for this mess needs firing. TLJ was roasted by many fans, but in time it will come to be seen as the masterpiece it is. TROS will go down in history as the film that truly destroyed SW.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 8:35 am

I hope TROS won't be able to destroy SW as a whole because at the end of the day people will just forget it, like the crappy sequel it is. It can't be taken seriously and time leaves everything where it belongs.

Movies like "Planet of the Apes", " Alien" or "Blade Runner" are great and sequels wrere created to take advantage of their success. Sometimes the sequels are good but in most cases they are meh, or sheer crap.

In the end, the original good movie ( or the good sequels) will remain and be seen over and over, but not the crappy or disappointing ones that were born as a way to earn money and nothing else.

I haven't even seen TRoS, I'll watch it when it's on TV or may be I'll pass, we'll see

TROS is just fanfiction, what George L created was canon, this isn't. Not in my eyes.

I guess some day I'll watch again ANH and ESB, the only SW movies I consider worth rewatching. The only ST movie that I'll watch again is TLJ, I didn't even like it the 1st time I saw it but after other two viewings I quite like it.

With TFA it was the opposite, I loved it at first but now I can't like it because it isn't genuine or honest. It played with everyone, it promised what it didn't deliver. When I remember that JJ said Kylo was like a prince and this was a fairy tale, that the ending was going to be hopeful, I get so angry!

In which fairy tale is the price abused and abandoned, left to his own devices? In which is the prince killed after a selfless action where he saves his soul mate?

I don't like to be lied to so that I pay for a movie ticket and this is what DLF did to us with this fairy tale illusion. I won't let them steal my love for the real SW though. This love doesn't include what DLF do from now, I'm afraid.

But I do love Adam Driver, at least I got to enjoy every scene he was in, he's so good. Not even Adam will make me pay to see TROS in a cinema, though.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 8:46 am

I'm hoping that someday in the future I'll see the ST end with TLJ, which is what gwendy85 is doing, although at the moment I still feel depressed thinking about what they did. Someone on Tumblr re posted JJ saying that Kylo/Ben's fate at the end 'is fun'.

Fun.

I've come to the conclusion that when he said that he was:
a. taking the p*** big time
b.there really was an 'alternate' ending
c. he either has a serious psychological problem, or he was 'on something' when he said that.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 2:13 pm

I’m happy to ignore TRoS, but it’s admittedly trickier than ignoring bad sequels in the Alien or Terminator franchise, where individual movies are a lot more self-contained. You can treat the ST like it ended with TLJ, but it then leaves some major story threads and character arcs hanging in the air and unresolved.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 2:15 pm

I'm currently getting a lot of comfort from fanfiction.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 6:30 pm

I seem to remember people claiming that the PT "ruined" the entire Saga and while it's not my favorite part, it didn't in the end. Personally I see TRoS as another example of the ambition of Lucas' original idea of doing a 9 chapter story with the characters/relationships it was meant to cover where some parts didn't come together. Kind of like Alejandro Jodorowsky's crackpot project to adapt Dune back in the 1970s. Which funny thing, some of the art design/ideas out of that project ended up in the original Star Wars and the documentary Jodorowsky's Dune was released into theaters the week that LFL put out the black and white photo of TFA's table read.



But to claim it ruins everything, both the ST project and the entire Saga/its role in film history? It's bad but it's not that bad enough, it's just very disappointing. Especially when it was so easy to do justice to the ideas/themes/relationships that were tee'd up for the final chapter to just follow through on.
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Post by Reynak on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 6:52 pm

It's true the ST needed resolution, I agree, but TRoS isn't that so I choose to imagine my own ending. This isn't what I do as a rule, as I always take canon very seriously. The fact is DLF didn't take their own trilogy seriously. TROS is a joke and a very bad joke. The problem isn't only that TROS is a bad movie, the problem is that the ST as a whole doesn't make sense, it's contradictory and frustrating.

A trilogy must have internal coherence and the plot must have been concocted in advance. TROS plot is rubbish and seems improvised on the go. So, how can this be accepted as canon?
I am a person who has always taken canon as the only real thing and like to look for clues, hints, tropes, foreshadowing and these kinds of things.

With TROS everything seemed wasted because DLF threw all the hints or themes into the trash compactor. So I can see TLJ and enjoy what I can enjoy and imagine the ending is open. We can imagine what we want. For me, TROS means nothing.
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Post by snufkin on Sun 16 Feb 2020, 8:58 pm

@Reynak Improvised or there were different players at different points in time in the project who had different ideas/investment in the project. Which unfortunately the best thinkers/writers were not involved with the final chapter, hence what we got. Meaning the themes/ideas that were was first introduced in TFA and the first wave of ancillary books, about the Light/Dark/Balance, the endless cycle of war, the galactic haves and have nots, none of that gets addressed or resolved in what's supposed to be the final chapter for both the ST and the Saga. Which the following are the thoughts of several prominent American journalists who cover politics in terms of how TRoS took the ST and any potential themes/ideas, let alone potential for future storytelling, and drove it into a ditch.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 8 Screen80
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 8 Screen81
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 17 Feb 2020, 1:55 am

I would guess it's a combination of the earlier people like Kasdan, Kiri Hart, and Rian all being gone, Disney and/or LF getting freaked out by the TLJ backlash (despite what they claimed until December), and the late start for JJ that crammed the movie (which also downsized its marketing and merchandising) too close to even a delayed release date, which possibly also allowed them to bypass normal quality controls or consulting others like the SG.

Someone on Twitter was joking their new theory is that no one at LF has even seen TROS. I asked if them ignoring that TROS happened is actually a bad thing, and that it might actually be beneficial in the long run, and she agreed. We were all so excited for the thing, and now all both fans and creators want to do is pretend the thing doesn't exist.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 17 Feb 2020, 2:48 am

As a cinemagoer and long time SW fan, what I loved about these films is their message of hope. I remember post ROTS reading an interview with one of its makers in which they said how even with such a nihilistic ending they tried to show a positive image by having the final shot showing baby Luke on Tattooine - in short, the Empire had risen, Palpatine was in power, Anakin had fallen and Padme dead.....but that last shot of Luke was filled with optism. The future would see Luke and Leia rise to restore light to the galaxy, bring an end to the Emperor and redeem their father, whose spirit would evenitually be reunited with Padme.
That hope was still there in the. ST until TROS. At the end of TFA, Han was lost but Luke found, and the sight of Starkiller bursting into light was a kind of prophecy for the future. At the end of TLJ, we see broom boy - but also we get the impression that Rey and Kylo's story was just beginning, and it would have a positive outcome - the sight of Rey sadly watching Finn tending Rose signified she hadn't yet found her own soulmate and Kylo's desolate look showed he still longed for her. And the death of Snoke, at least for me, showed he had taken the first steps back to the light.

The ending of TROS isn't just a joke but a sick one. So called 'fans' moaned that TLJ ruined SW. But TLJ was full of hope. Luke's story arc came to a spectacular ending. My brother, a huge Luke fan, absolutely loved it. The other characters had matured, and begun the next stage of their journey - Finn as hero, Poe as General, Rey finally accepting herself, Kylo destroying his abuser. I couldn't wait to find out what would happen next.

TROS destroyed the heart and soul of Star Wars. The sense of hope. Poe and Finn were completely regressed. The last ever Skywalker dies, ultimately achieving the Emperor's goal, to erase the bloodline forever. And Rey, who loved green, wanted a family, hated being alone, hated barren desert worllds.....
Ends up alone on a barren desert world ready to embrace the toxic code of spending a solitary life devoted to the Jedi mantra of 'no attachment'. Something Lucas himself showed was wrong in the PT.

I think JJ has a perverse sense of humour in describing Ben's fate as 'fun' and this gloomy depressing ending as 'hopeful'.
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