Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Kylo Rey on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 8:21 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Unfortunately his 'heroes' combined were less interesting than the so called'villain'.
@motherofpearl1

Yeah that’s the problem. A villain/antagonist/anti-hero being the most popular/interesting character in the story is nothing new. But people still cared about the OT trio, Harry, Hermione and Ron, the Fellowship of the Ring, Buffy and her friends, etc. etc. The big problem of the ST is that its heroes don’t work as individual characters or as a trio.
@Saracene

Yeah, this. Trio stans get offended and try to push a racism/sexism angle if you say you don’t care for them, but Kylo really does win by default, not like he has much competition.

Also seconded on Rian caring more about Kylo than JJ, which is ironic because the latter created him. Really do wish we got to live in the reality where he had done IX, no doubt in my mind it would have served Adam Driver’s talents better.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 10:12 pm

Did John say another bad thing related to SW? That's what I've gotten the impression of, but no one will say directly what it was.
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Post by fuhry on Mon 23 Mar 2020, 10:36 pm

Hello all.

I so hope you are all well in these crazy times. Being stuck at home, I may just give TROS another chance, as I have still only seen it once! ... crazy times indeed!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 2:06 am

@Kylo Rey wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:Unfortunately his 'heroes' combined were less interesting than the so called'villain'.
@motherofpearl1

Yeah that’s the problem. A villain/antagonist/anti-hero being the most popular/interesting character in the story is nothing new. But people still cared about the OT trio, Harry, Hermione and Ron, the Fellowship of the Ring, Buffy and her friends, etc. etc. The big problem of the ST is that its heroes don’t work as individual characters or as a trio.
@Saracene

I remember when Rian first said Luke was his favourite character we all thought he would'push' Luke to the detriment of the others. But he didn't. Everyone had a day in the sun, even Paige's death was genuinely moving and we knew her for five minutes.
A lot of people moan that Finn was just comic relief but I disagree. Han Solo was often played for laughs but it didn't stop him been a great character. Finn developed beautifully in TLJ, and he was ready to step up for his role as leader of the stormtrooper rebellion. Then JJ gave that role to Jannah. I like Naomi but her character was completely unnecessary. And it seemed that they threw in another black character while virtually erasing the Asian character, especially diabolical as Kelly isn't just a great actress, she was a major character.

Abrams should have taken a leaf out of George Lucas's book. He intended Luke to be the main lead in the OT. But Han proved the most popular. But instead of shunting him aside, as JJ did with Kylo, George gave him his own story. What JJ ,has done is like the actions of a petulant little kid, not a professional movie director.

Yeah, this. Trio stans get offended and try to push a racism/sexism angle if you say you don’t care for them, but Kylo really does win by default, not like he has much competition.

Also seconded on Rian caring more about Kylo than JJ, which is ironic because the latter created him. Really do wish we got to live in the reality where he had done IX, no doubt in my mind it would have served Adam Driver’s talents better.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 2:07 am

Okay, I think I've posted in the middle of someone's quote. Sorry my computer is a bit weird at the moment!
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Post by vaderito on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 9:14 am

@fuhry wrote:Hello all.

I so hope you are all well in these crazy times. Being stuck at home, I may just give TROS another chance, as I have still only seen it once! ... crazy times indeed!
@fuhry

what's crazier, being stuck at home due to some crazy virus or seeing TROS again? I'd say the latter. lol!
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Post by vaderito on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 9:25 am

@Kylo Rey wrote:

Yeah that’s the problem. A villain/antagonist/anti-hero being the most popular/interesting character in the story is nothing new. But people still cared about the OT trio, Harry, Hermione and Ron, the Fellowship of the Ring, Buffy and her friends, etc. etc. The big problem of the ST is that its heroes don’t work as individual characters or as a trio.
@Saracene

Yeah, this. Trio stans get offended and try to push a racism/sexism angle if you say you don’t care for them, but Kylo really does win by default, not like he has much competition.

Also seconded on Rian caring more about Kylo than JJ, which is ironic because the latter created him. Really do wish we got to live in the reality where he had done IX, no doubt in my mind it would have served Adam Driver’s talents better.[/quote]
@Kylo Rey

ST was never envisioned as a trio trology which is why Rey is so powerful and capable to take care of herself without help. If they stuck to that, it would work. But they tried to artifically create a trio cause OT without understanding how ensemble of any kind (duo, trio, quartet, quintet, etc) work. The point of any ensemble is that there's a lead (there always is, not all members are equal) who needs other people to achieve his/her goal. If a character is overpowered then he/she is either a lone hero or his/her weaknesses are the reason why help is needed. For example, Tony Stark is one of 2 Avengers leads (the other is Steve) but he has character flaws that require other people to balance it out. Even though he's pretty damn powerful in his suit. Same goes for most superheroes. they either aren't powerfu/skilledl enough to do it by themselves or have some flaws that require offsetting. Hulk is pretty obvious in that regard. he can't control his rage so he's an ideal team player. he contributes but also needs others to keep him in check. likewise, others need his strength for it's substantially higher than most of their strength, but they also calm him and protect him from himself.

You don't have that with Rey because Rey is too poweful and skilled to need anyone let alone characters way below her levels and she doesn't have a particular character flaw that requires balancing out by a team. It isn't that Rey couldn't be a team player but characters who were picked as her team simply didn't work because they couldn't measure up. Dyad was a step in the right direction but they didn't do anything with it because at the end of the day they wanted Rey to do everything by herself. So it's a conondrum. On one side, they want a heroine who needs no one's help but on the other side they wanted a trio for nostalgia purpose. and then on the third side, they wanted Force Bond but so that the heroine still end up the sole victor. No wonder all went to hell.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 11:09 am

Couldn't put it better myself.
I was thinking of Sarah Connor in the Terminator films, she started out a fragile young woman, and gradually became a heroine. But the first two films both stressed that for all her strength she still needed someone....in Judgement Day it was her son.
Leia I loved, because I'd never seen a heroine like her.....but being in love with Han Solo didn't mean she wasn't a capable leader, and she managed to'off' Jabba the Hutt easily enough. I don't know if anyone here has seen Red Sonja......yes, I know it's terrible, but Sonja and Arnold Schwarzenegger's character were lovers, and it didn't make Sonja weak for loving a man. I've lost count of the films I've seen and books I've read where the women were as capable as the men - but they still needed each other.
Rey is not a good role model for young girls, I'm sorry. She's an ideal, not a person, and frankly choosing to depict her as someone who needs no one in her life is a poisonous message, as everyone needs someone at some time in their life. I particularly disliked her casual attitude to Ben's sacrifice. Not even a mention of him to the FGs of his family.
It made her seem like a self servicing narcissist.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 11:55 am

Unfortunately for us we've got JJ who is OT purist and who is obsessed with heroic characters, and not with just interesting characters regardless of their "moral" stance. When JJ said to Daisy that "Star Wars" is a religion, he was actually talking... about himself. It does reach religion level of ideology when you relate only to heroic characters and spin fictional narrative in the schizophrenic way TROS tried to spin it just to "make it feel like in OT".

By some miracle we had Johnson, who loved Luke and wasn't afraid to treat him as an interesting character, and not exclusively heroic. I find Luke's arc in TLJ one of the most interesting acrs I've ever seen in the movie of this genre. The critical detail is that Luke is an old man. While Rey's and Kylo's arcs suffered a little from focus on Luke, Johnson did an amazing job with the set up he's got. He sincerely tried to tie all three of them together and give all separate arcs thematical value.

I also see Luke's arc as one of the most valuable and fresh lesson for young viewers in Star Wars, something that they don't see often in the fiction catered to them (kids and teens). Last time it was Dumbledore in HP. Sometimes the old heroic figure is just a human, and makes mistakes and becomes one of the reasons for creating a greater evil. Even with good intentions. They're blaming themselves so much that they finally give up. While old people - the ones young see as "wise" and " inspiring" can be responsible for bad things, sometimes it's a youth's job to push them and remind that not everything is lost.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 1:32 pm

I found Mark Hamill gave the performance of his life in TLJ. Whatever his personal feelings, he was outstanding as 'old' Luke. I actually thought how he is was presented in TROS an insult to his character. Like Rey, he'd become an ideal instead of a person.

And I was so disappointed he never got to actually speak with Ben again.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 1:36 pm

JJ may be obsessed with heroic characters but heroic doesn't mean boring or useless, which most of ST heroic characters absolutely are. In fact I'd say all of ST heroic characters who are not leftovers from OT are boring and useless. JJ thinks piling up exposition about their background (ex-smuggler rurned rebel pilot, born and bred Storm trooper who defects, scavenger with a mysterious past) is a substitute for characterisation but it isn't. It's just info dump while characters are so paper thin you can get a paper cut from them. None of them has an interesting or distinguishing perosnality nor their characters drive the story. In fact, their characters bend to whatever plot asks of them.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 2:01 pm

@vaderito Yeah, but the problem is that JJ thinks that being heroic character is more important than being an interesting character and that "heroic" quality automatically makes characters more alluring to the audience. At this stage we can easily say that JJ really doesn't understand how stories work and how characters became interesting.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 2:21 pm

Many heroes were flawed people.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 3:08 pm

@special_cases wrote:@vaderito Yeah, but the problem is that JJ thinks that being heroic character is more important than being an interesting character and that "heroic" quality automatically makes characters more alluring to the audience. At this stage we can easily say that JJ really doesn't understand how stories work and how characters became interesting.
@special_cases

well, that backfired didn't it? though to be fair, he didn't make kirk uninteresting in ST09 but that may be because the character was already established as flawed in canon so JJ had no choice. but his originally created heroes in ST...yikes.
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 5:00 pm

The really sad part is that JJ actually seems to think he did the ST characters justice and let them carry the movie by themselves. Which is really not what happened, but he somehow thinks he did.
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Post by OrionStars on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 7:42 pm

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 34 VirVVql
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 34 4DUQQ0t
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Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 7:52 pm

@OrionStars wrote:Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 34 VirVVql
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 34 4DUQQ0t
@OrionStars

I hate this company. They really turned a 40 year old family into a f****ing metaphor
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Post by special_cases on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 9:41 pm

"For our purposes" === ?

Was it the only way to connect Skywalker Saga to new characters who, in their turn, will open a way for new sagas, directions, more money, money, money. Seriously, they couldn't find alternative creative decisions without literally killing the whole family? Adoptation and non-blood family is a beautiful message. When it doesn't happen at expense of "not pure enough" or ignored blood relatives who was killed only because it was the only way to make "non-blood" message matter at all. LOL.

I seriously don't know how to f"ck up this message more. I bet you will try to imagine something more off-putting than the end of TROS in the context of the whole ST/saga and you will fail.


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Post by DeeBee on Tue 24 Mar 2020, 10:14 pm

I honestly don’t expect people who were involved in making the ST or LFL to accept they blew it. They are too heavily invested. They will continue to justify and rationalise imho for years to come.
Here: Cognitive Bias
This is the underlying cause of why we got the rubbish product in the first place. Nothing has changed and so it will continue.
The culture is not capable of self correction imho and it’s a major reason why I don’t have hope that Star Wars will win me back...


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Post by Lily Snape on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 12:59 am

@californiagirl wrote:Did John say another bad thing related to SW? That's what I've gotten the impression of, but no one will say directly what it was.
@californiagirl

Did you ever find out? He seems to have trouble doing the whole adulting bit and stuffing a sock in it when needed.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 1:01 am

@Lily Snape No, but maybe I don't want to know.

I always liked the idea of Rey being welcomed into the Skywalker/Solo family, a nice balance between not being a literal biological family member while still connecting to their story, which makes offing the entire family even stranger. Why does Rey's mere existence as the main character mean the preexisting Skywalkers can't exist anymore? Why does one cancel out the other? On top of Rey's "I want a family" thing being one of her main motivations. I just can't follow this train of thought at all.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 1:59 am

I think myself that they wanted the franchise with it's extraordinary and rich universe, which was inspired by Tolkien and old classic shows like Flash Gordon, but they didn't want the legacy characters.
The Solos, it seems, are particularly disliked, hence Abrams repeated insistence that it's all about 'The Twins'.:

Ironically the best new character they created was Kylo Ren, and when they realised he was more popular than the other characters, they reduced his screen time then killed him off, and in what's possibly the most inane method ever. Meanwhile they increase screen time for their 'new Skywalker' and bump up her role so much it has precisely the opposite effect of what they intended - instead of endearing her more to the audience, it's merely made her tiresome, irritating and unlikeable.

As so many have pointed out, adopting a child doesn't mean kicking out your own child. I loathe the Palpatine story but if Rey and Ben had got together it might have worked - as Kylo said, he was Vader's grandson, she was Palpatine's granddaughter. It could have been a healing of old wounds. The saga could have ended with both of them together, and looking forward to a future with children.

But....that wasn't what Abrams, Terrio and apparently DLF wanted. Instead of simply choosing to make new material with new characters they had to thoroughly destroy the old ones - even worse, their descendant.

I suspect they think they can do better.
But Finn, Poe and Rey aren't a patch on Luke, Han and Leia. Finn was rendered completely superfluous by the Jannah subplot, JB can whine all he likes, but it wasn't reylo that destroyed his character arc, it was his friend JJ. Poe was at his best in TLJ, here they've tried to make him Han Solo, and failed.

And I'm sorry guys......but you've turned Rey into possibly SWs worst ever character, a wooden, unfeeling , narcissist who inherits everything without earning it, a character I loved and who I now despise so much I'm having a job just reading Reylo fan fiction.
And for what?
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Post by Saracene on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:00 am

Ironically, some of the most compelling parts of the ST have to do with the blood family drama and relationships between relatives. The whole Skywalker family drama about Luke, Han and Leia losing Ben to the dark side is IMO way more interesting than anything happening to the main heroes.

(I think BTW that it would have been just as compelling if, say, Han and Leia couldn't have children and Ben was an adopted baby. But I think that "adopted child" story is just much harder to pull off when you're talking about a grown-up 20-year-old woman who's really at a stage when she should be entering an independent adult life. At this stage, "my friends are my found family" is way more natural.)

The ST just wanted to do everything at once and couldn't decide where Rey's belonging was. She's an adopted Skywalker, Luke and Leia are her non-blood family! Oh but her Resistance buddies are her non-blood family too. Oh and she also has a cosmic force soulmate who's like her other half. You could make any of these work if you just concentrated on one but nope let's throw them all in a blender.


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Post by DeeBee on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:04 am

@Saracene wrote:
The ST just wanted to do everything at once and couldn't decide where Rey's belonging was. She's an adopted Skywalker, Luke and Leia are her non-blood family! Oh but her Resistance buddies are her non-blood family too. Oh and she also has a cosmic force soulmate who's like her other half. You could make any of these work if you just concentrated on one but nope let's throw them all in a blender.
@Saracene
Yep, I think it’s by design- just take your pick! Rey can be anything you want her to be.
Where’s the empowerment in that, the character wasn’t allowed to be a character in the end...
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 25 Mar 2020, 3:57 am

She's a Barbie doll. Dolls personalities are decided by the children playing with them. Rey is a blank slate for different viewers to decide what she is!!
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