Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

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Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:04 am

Exactly as the topic states, let's make a list of scenes or phrases heard more than once during the film and analyze their potential significance.

When Rey first introduces herself and Finn to Han on the MF, she tells Han Finn is with the Resistance and she is "just a scavenger". She says this about herself nonchalantly; it is who she is and is no big deal. During the interrogation, Kylo also calls her "a scavenger" and her face reads indignant and ashamed to me. He quickly looks down as though he has put his foot in his mouth. (In the novel he says "Is it true? You're just a scavenger?" and he actually senses her embarrassment and so changes topics.) Why is there a difference? Why be nonchalant with Han and embarrassed/indignant/ashamed with Kylo Ren? Naturally my theory is because she is attracted to Kylo and subconsciously would not want him to see her as someone "less than". Thoughts?
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Sylvia Snow on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:45 am

The fairy godmother music can be heard before Rey found the saber and the interrogation scene, it doesn't add up on why they put that sound there but I think it can symbolize that it's some life changing moments. Rey saw the vision that lead her to her destiny and Rey and Ren looking at each other minds, forming a Force Bond.

Ghostly figures whisper her name twice, one is Obi Wan in the vision, the second unidentifiable voice was in the forest, right after we hear Kylo's saber, I still don't know what it means though Neutral
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:51 am

The Bridal Carry: We see 4 different shots of this. 1. When Rey is initially KO and Kylo catches her. 2. From Han's perspective. 3. From Finn's. 4. Close up as he carries her across the threshold.

Like they really wanted to hammer this one home.

EDIT: Bonus Points: The music that sounds like Romeo and Juliet builds starting at Han and climaxes at the recognizable R&Jesque motif as she's carried across the threshold.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 1:28 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:The fairy godmother music can be heard before Rey found the saber and the interrogation scene, it doesn't add up on why they put that sound there but I think it can symbolize that it's some life changing moments. Rey saw the vision that lead her to her destiny and Rey and Ren looking at each other minds, forming a Force Bond.

Ghostly figures whisper her name twice, one is Obi Wan in the vision, the second unidentifiable voice was in the forest, right after we hear Kylo's saber, I still don't know what it means though Neutral

I just heard that too, thanks for pointing out! Looks like it plays the second time specifically when he says, "And now you'll give it to me." What?? What in the world does this mean?
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Gemini on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 2:15 pm

The duplicate shots in the snow fight scene between Ren and Rey..They both run in the same direction, both hit a tree and both make the tree fall over in the exact same direction..significance is that they are two sides of a whole..opposites of one another.

Its interesting when the poster first came out someone yelled "they're twins" and I just scoffed because I thought "oh relatives again? thats new" but in a sense they are made to look like twins of the force, not blood but like Yin and Yang.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Darth Dingbat on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:17 pm

@Sylvia Snow wrote:
Ghostly figures whisper her name twice, one is Obi Wan in the vision, the second unidentifiable voice was in the forest, right after we hear Kylo's saber, I still don't know what it means though Neutral

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Obi-Wan's "Rey" in the vision come before she runs into Ren, too?

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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 01 Apr 2016, 3:22 pm

@Darth Dingleberry It does, you're correct.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:18 am

Both Rey and Kylo say "we're not finished, yet"

Rey to Finn when he tries to dip out on their mission.
Kylo to Rey and Finn after he kills Han.

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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Queen Rey on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 12:40 am

The "we'll see" phrase that keeps coming back? You mean something like this?
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Guest on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 10:59 am

I like the We are not done yet thing....
It's like Rey and Ren are so similar that they even speak the same things...Razz
Don't think it's accidental......nothing is in this movie full of symbolism and foreshadowing

Is Rey Neo...or is Ren Neo?
Or both?

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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Darth Rowan on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 11:49 am

As you can tell from my signature, I love the recurrence of "We'll see." Snoke says some form of it in response to Kylo Ren's audacious proclamation of "I will not be seduced."

Kylo Ren then says it to Rey in one of my favorite Kylo moments in TFA: so arrogant and so sure, with the slight narrowing of the eyes, the hint of condescension. We've been led to believe that he can "crack" any mind. We saw him break Poe, and we believe his over-confidence is justified. But then he is proven wrong by Rey. I wonder if Snoke's "We shall see" will prove him wrong again? n_n

Another nice recurring theme is the unmasking: we see it occur three times, and (in my opinion) in reverse order of importance as far as how much is concealed: first Finn, then Rey, then Kylo Ren. Three people who to varying degrees are not who they say they are.

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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by vaderito on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 2:52 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Exactly as the topic states, let's make a list of scenes or phrases heard more than once during the film and analyze their potential significance.

When Rey first introduces herself and Finn to Han on the MF, she tells Han Finn is with the Resistance and she is "just a scavenger". She says this about herself nonchalantly; it is who she is and is no big deal. During the interrogation, Kylo also calls her "a scavenger" and her face reads indignant and ashamed to me. He quickly looks down as though he has put his foot in his mouth. (In the novel he says "Is it true? You're just a scavenger?" and he actually senses her embarrassment and so changes topics.) Why is there a difference? Why be nonchalant with Han and embarrassed/indignant/ashamed with Kylo Ren? Naturally my theory is because she is attracted to Kylo and subconsciously would not want him to see her as someone "less than". Thoughts?

I think that's it. She's comfortable with Han and Finn but with Kylo it's like "oh, no, he doesn't find me attractive." In Han and Finn case, she doesn't care whether they find her attractive. It's different from being liked. She wants them to like her but it's not the same as when you want someone to be attracted to you because you are to them. Sexual awakening.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Search Your Feelings on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 7:59 pm

As much as I like Poe, I notice he says "Give it all we got!" "Give it everything we got!" a lot Laughing
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Sat 02 Apr 2016, 9:41 pm

@Queen Rey wrote:The "we'll see" phrase that keeps coming back? You mean something like this?

Exactly. Repeated phrases. Or scenes that are done twice, such as the interrogation scenes and the lightsaber battles.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 8:07 am

@Darth Dementor wrote:Both Rey and Kylo say "we're not finished, yet"

Rey to Finn when he tries to dip out on their mission.
Kylo to Rey and Finn after he kills Han.
@Darth Dementor

Yes, I noticed that.
Off topic but...did anyone notice the expressions on Finn and Rey's faces when they saw Kylo beating his own wound? Because although they both hated him at that moment for a brief instance they looked horrified, as if seeing him hurting himself like that disturbed them, and then Rey's hate came back and she tried to shoot him.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Slade on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:48 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Darth Dementor wrote:Both Rey and Kylo say "we're not finished, yet"

Rey to Finn when he tries to dip out on their mission.
Kylo to Rey and Finn after he kills Han.
@Darth Dementor

Yes, I noticed that.
Off topic but...did anyone notice the expressions on Finn and Rey's faces when they saw Kylo beating his own wound? Because although they both hated him at that moment for a brief instance they looked horrified, as if seeing him hurting himself like that disturbed them, and then Rey's hate came back and she tried to shoot him.
@motherofpearl1

Yes. And rey looked nauseated.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 10:58 am

I think it proves that at some time in the future they are going to feel compassion for him - it'll be a while, especially after what he did to Finn. But..
Both Rey and Finn are compassionate by nature, I suspect they will learn something about him that might just change their outlook.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by LadyHa on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 7:00 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:The Bridal Carry: We see 4 different shots of this. 1. When Rey is initially KO and Kylo catches her. 2. From Han's perspective. 3. From Finn's. 4. Close up as he carries her across the threshold.

Like they really wanted to hammer this one home.

EDIT: Bonus Points: The music that sounds like Romeo and Juliet builds starting at Han and climaxes at the recognizable R&Jesque motif as she's carried across the threshold.
@MeadowofAshes

The R&J-esque motif seems very clear, especially after repeated viewings.  Has anyone asked John Williams about this?

There is something related to the bridal carrying scene that I haven't seen mentioned here (although I don't doubt that it's been brought up), and it's that it was repeated with Chewie carrying Finn.  Here are screenshots showing how both scenes are shot from a similar distance and angle.



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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by MeadowofAshes on Fri 15 Jul 2016, 8:25 pm

@LadyHa Good catch! I know we've discussed it elsewhere but not on this thread. Another case of same shots and scenes being used to compare/contrast. How I interpret this is Kylo the masked "creature" who turns out to be a beautified young man carrying Rey, an uninjured young woman, across the threshold is contrasted with an actual non-human male carrying an injured young man aboard to safety. IMO we're supposed to notice a difference. The MF scene is also used to show Rey looking back in Kylo's direction, indicating she is worried about his well-being or his ability to escape the imminent destruction of SKB.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Kaleyna on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 3:08 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:The Bridal Carry: We see 4 different shots of this. 1. When Rey is initially KO and Kylo catches her. 2. From Han's perspective. 3. From Finn's. 4. Close up as he carries her across the threshold.

Like they really wanted to hammer this one home.

EDIT: Bonus Points: The music that sounds like Romeo and Juliet builds starting at Han and climaxes at the recognizable R&Jesque motif as she's carried across the threshold.
@MeadowofAshes

Love this!! The 2 important men in her life (other than Kylo) see it and that staging holds meaning for me. In the scene, they don't see Kylo dragging her aboard kicking and screaming or having Storm Troopers do it. He's gently carrying her aboard in his arms.

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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by LadyHa on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 4:16 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:@LadyHa Good catch! I know we've discussed it elsewhere but not on this thread. Another case of same shots and scenes being used to compare/contrast. How I interpret this is Kylo the masked "creature" who turns out to be a beautified young man carrying Rey, an uninjured young woman, across the threshold is contrasted with an actual non-human male carrying an injured young man aboard to safety. IMO we're supposed to notice a difference. The MF scene is also used to show Rey looking back in Kylo's direction, indicating she is worried about his well-being or his ability to escape the imminent destruction of SKB.
@MeadowofAshes

I also like to think of the scenes as Kylo carrying Rey into the underworld, contrasted with Chewie carrying Finn out of it. Right around this time, the Falcon seems to represent the light (when Finn & Rey are still on the ground, the Falcon shows up shining a very bright light on them.)

In the MF scene, I never would have noticed Rey looking back if I hadn't read it on this board.  It goes by so quickly in the film that I have wondered how intentional it really was. I would have preferred if the camera lingered on her a little more at that point.  Of course, they deleted that scene towards the end where she gets good news about Finn, interrupting her conflicted thoughts, so maybe they didn't want to emphasize her ruminations on what just happened to her.


Last edited by LadyHa on Sat 16 Jul 2016, 4:20 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Falcon = Light)
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 17 Jul 2016, 12:31 am

@LadyHa wrote:
@MeadowofAshes wrote:@LadyHa Good catch! I know we've discussed it elsewhere but not on this thread. Another case of same shots and scenes being used to compare/contrast. How I interpret this is Kylo the masked "creature" who turns out to be a beautified young man carrying Rey, an uninjured young woman, across the threshold is contrasted with an actual non-human male carrying an injured young man aboard to safety. IMO we're supposed to notice a difference. The MF scene is also used to show Rey looking back in Kylo's direction, indicating she is worried about his well-being or his ability to escape the imminent destruction of SKB.
@MeadowofAshes

I also like to think of the scenes as Kylo carrying Rey into the underworld, contrasted with Chewie carrying Finn out of it. Right around this time, the Falcon seems to represent the light (when Finn & Rey are still on the ground, the Falcon shows up shining a very bright light on them.)

In the MF scene, I never would have noticed Rey looking back if I hadn't read it on this board.  It goes by so quickly in the film that I have wondered how intentional it really was. I would have preferred if the camera lingered on her a little more at that point.  Of course, they deleted that scene towards the end where she gets good news about Finn, interrupting her conflicted thoughts, so maybe they didn't want to emphasize her ruminations on what just happened to her.
@LadyHa

I think they were trying to cut back on any scene where she seemed to show regret or compassion regarding Kylo - waiting for the next film I think.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by snufkin on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 10:41 am

Bumping this up and suggesting that the mods move this over to IX because I suspect with the home video release, there will be even more repeating terms/themes and patterns viewers notice in TLJ which line up with TFA. Such as "come home" and "too much of his father in him" for the villain. Others:

So just realized another motif which gets repeated in an interesting way. We have:

1. HOPE as one of the central ones for the franchise and this film. Snoke's rant about Hope lives, Leia's line at the end about how Hope is gone, she's lost Hope in the child she named after her only Hope.

2. HOME is Rey's greatest wish & her mission to return BB-8, Leia and Rey wearing matched bracelets as beacons to "bring her home," Han telling Ben he wants him to come home, Poe's line after SKB blows up that they're going home...

3. TOO MUCH OF HIS FATHER/VADER IN HIM - "you have your father's heart, young Solo." And the Dice which appear in TLJ and likely in Solo.

I just realized there's another one which gets repeated between the two movies, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Ben parrots back something to Han about how he destroyed who he was because he's like his father, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Skip ahead to the Throne Room Scene when Snoke has Rey in his clutches and is monologuing about how he supposedly set up their bond. He says he knew it would work that Ben was too WEAK to resist the temptation posed by Rey (too much of his father in him?) and that she would be too FOOLISH to resist the urge to sympathize and help him. So Ben was 100% repeating something Snoke said to him over and over again. But uh, interesting choice to use those two words again which parallel the same type of test, where this time Ben knows what he has to do, which is to kill his true enemy b/c Snoke wants him to 'deliver the cruelest blow' in killing somebody he loves.
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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Let The Past Die on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 3:54 pm

@snufkin wrote:Bumping this up and suggesting that the mods move this over to IX because I suspect with the home video release, there will be even more repeating terms/themes and patterns viewers notice in TLJ which line up with TFA. Such as "come home" and "too much of his father in him" for the villain. Others:

So just realized another motif which gets repeated in an interesting way. We have:

1. HOPE as one of the central ones for the franchise and this film. Snoke's rant about Hope lives, Leia's line at the end about how Hope is gone, she's lost Hope in the child she named after her only Hope.

2. HOME is Rey's greatest wish & her mission to return BB-8, Leia and Rey wearing matched bracelets as beacons to "bring her home," Han telling Ben he wants him to come home, Poe's line after SKB blows up that they're going home...

3. TOO MUCH OF HIS FATHER/VADER IN HIM - "you have your father's heart, young Solo." And the Dice which appear in TLJ and likely in Solo.

I just realized there's another one which gets repeated between the two movies, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Ben parrots back something to Han about how he destroyed who he was because he's like his father, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Skip ahead to the Throne Room Scene when Snoke has Rey in his clutches and is monologuing about how he supposedly set up their bond. He says he knew it would work that Ben was too WEAK to resist the temptation posed by Rey (too much of his father in him?) and that she would be too FOOLISH to resist the urge to sympathize and help him. So Ben was 100% repeating something Snoke said to him over and over again. But uh, interesting choice to use those two words again which parallel the same type of test, where this time Ben knows what he has to do, which is to kill his true enemy b/c Snoke wants him to 'deliver the cruelest blow' in killing somebody he loves.
@snufkin

What a brilliant thread, thanks for resurrecting it @snufkin I would have missed it otherwise. I enjoyed the views noted above.

I've noticed in the last week, quite a bit of discussion on the threads here,  as to phrases that are repeated or are similar or the opposite as contrast, so it's a great idea to keep them all in one place.

Not sure if mirroring counts, but I noticed (I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I've only just noticed it when watching a music vid) when we see Rey and Kylo in the first bond scene, when she is in the hut and he is in the chair, how the light hits half of Rey's face on her right side, and the light is hitting Kylo on his left side. It's the same in the second force scene, but on the opposite side, in the third scene, her face is in the dark and his in lit up. Very yin yang like. It's repeated in different ways throughout the film. Although I was aware of it before ,  it's just really stood out to me how much detail and thought goes into each scene. It maybe I'm noticing all the half lighting on their faces as my favourite music track at the moment is Half Light by Banners Laughing
I'm really looking forward to all the phrases and scenes everyone has spotted, and really looking forward to when we get TLJ in our hands.


Edit: word change (predictive text)


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Re: Glitch in the Matrix: Scenes and Phrases Occurring Twice in the Film and Their Possible Significance

Post by Darth Rowan on Fri 23 Feb 2018, 4:08 pm

@snufkin wrote:
I just realized there's another one which gets repeated between the two movies, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Ben parrots back something to Han about how he destroyed who he was because he's like his father, WEAK AND FOOLISH. Skip ahead to the Throne Room Scene when Snoke has Rey in his clutches and is monologuing about how he supposedly set up their bond. He says he knew it would work that Ben was too WEAK to resist the temptation posed by Rey (too much of his father in him?) and that she would be too FOOLISH to resist the urge to sympathize and help him. So Ben was 100% repeating something Snoke said to him over and over again. But uh, interesting choice to use those two words again which parallel the same type of test, where this time Ben knows what he has to do, which is to kill his true enemy b/c Snoke wants him to 'deliver the cruelest blow' in killing somebody he loves.
@snufkin



Everything in your post, but especially this part about Snoke and Ben - that's brilliant. If you think about it from this context, it makes Kylo Ren's actions of finally breaking free from Snoke all the more significant. He was essentially breaking a cycle of toxicity and emotional manipulation, which is tremendously hard to do. In psychology there is a term called "learned helplessness" - think about the (very cruel) circus practice of chaining a baby elephant; it struggles against the chain until it "learns" that it can't break free. By the time it is fully grown, that chain is the easiest thing to break, but the elephant has now "learned" that it is helpless against it and so will almost never attempt to break free. With Kylo Ren, he had to overcome learned helplessness against Snoke's years of emotional abuse AND his own ideas/fear of being defective and weak, etc, in order to finally free himself and defeat his true enemy. He did that himself and it's very empowering - but it was because of Rey. She was "the spark that lit the flame", to quote Poe's terrible monologue. ^^

I know there is still a lot of anxiety about whether Kylo Ren will be redeemed, but to me this kind of analysis makes it more obvious that Kylo Ren is already undergoing a profound change. The conflict was there, already present in TFA, but he needed a catalyst, something to help him take action towards change: enter Rey. That's why for a lot of us the redemption arc has already begun, it's already happening - just like Reylo is already is already happening.

tl;dr: Ben Solo's character development in TLJ is real, and it's spectacular. Also: REYLO. Twisted Evil

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