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Post by snufkin on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:32 pm

Oh there was some definite bad blood between him and LST pre-dating that final encounter. Hopefully it'll get spelled out somehow because that plus what happened to Poe sets up the expectation that he's just a cold blooded killer. All of the comments about his origins provoked him into lashing out, so something was going on there. And the rest of the village, that has to be part of whatever Snoke's orders/end game is (also if they're LS, that spells trouble for a certain LS girl from Jakku he's sweet on).
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Wed 27 Apr 2016, 11:38 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Kessel89 Agree, his killing isn't excusable to the audience but unless he's a moustache-twirling nutcase (and we know he's not) he has to have his own reasoning. That explanation makes the most sense to me. The only other one I could think of was if he was already on orders to do so, but LST and village being CotF and being invested in the "traitorous" Resistance makes more sense to me. Death to traitors is a common mentality in the US and many other places, so that perspective isn't unheard of. He's wrong, of course, but from his perspective he isn't. Also, I don't have a copy of the Visual Dictionary so thanks for referencing!
@MeadowofAshes

IMO, he definitely has old baggage with LST. The dialogue in the movie indicates this, and the novel goes even farther, with Ren saying to LST something to the effect of, "Don't make these people pay the price for what you do ... so give me the map," and LST answered something like "This village and I made our peace a long time ago," and of course, he gives up nothing. I don't have the book with me, but I remember getting the impression that Ren had had a run-in with LST before, for sure, and who knows if that included some of the villagers or not (they do seem militant, even in the movie a bit). The book says that's it's FO policy to take out anyone harboring a fugitive (which LST is to them). It's not pretty, but a lot of stuff goes down in SW that is much more in line with ancient ways of waging war than more modern rules. I also think think that there is some straight theological sith (dark v. light) between Kylo and LST. I know that a number of us on the board don't trust LST to be totally innocent throughout his life. Doesn't make Kylo right in the slightest, but it would add more complexity.

As for blowing up planets, I think that is a whole different kettle of fish in SW. Every major character has shot up somebody recklessly, including Han, Rey and Finn. Kylo's of course is more calculated, but SW does seem to be this dog-eat-dog world to me in terms of these small skirmishes, but it's only the uber-evil who are happy to blow up planets. Emperor, Tarkin, Vader, Snoke, Hux.

IMO, the fact that Kylo does not support the planet attacks is a huge deal. He may be bad, but he's not in that super evil category like the planet killers. Actually he sort of has a new category ... like he is bookended on one side by Han and even closer uber-warrior comic strip Leia on one side and "After he finds out about Luke/Conflicted" Vader on another.
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Post by Little_Boots on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:10 am

When Kylo is arriving on Jakku, the only character there I felt genuine sadness for was that Alien being held down Sad anyone else feel sad for him? I felt really sad, just so pitiful or something, he looked so scared
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Post by EchoBase on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:23 am

@Little_Boots wrote:When Kylo is arriving on Jakku, the only character there I felt genuine sadness for was that Alien being held down Sad anyone else feel sad for him? I felt really sad, just so pitiful or something, he looked so scared
@Little_Boots

Yes, me too. Isn't it strange, I didn't feel pity for a human being like LST, but for that alien. Reminded me of an a helpless animal who was going to be slaughtered. Maybe it was the way the scene was shot, LST appeared as a bold character, far away from helpless.
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Post by Little_Boots on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:27 am

@EchoBase wrote:
@Little_Boots wrote:When Kylo is arriving on Jakku, the only character there I felt genuine sadness for was that Alien being held down Sad anyone else feel sad for him? I felt really sad, just so pitiful or something, he looked so scared
@Little_Boots

Yes, me too. Isn't it strange, I didn't feel pity for a human being like LST, but for that alien. Reminded me of an a helpless animal who was going to be slaughtered. Maybe it was the way the scene was shot, LST appeared as a bold character, far away from helpless.
@EchoBase

Yea, like a helpless animal that is just innocent and doesn't know what to do. Sad so sad. Cry
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Post by Search Your Feelings on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:29 am

@MeadowofAshes wrote:Ren's a complex cat. It puzzles me a little to realize he objects to blowing up planets but orders a village slaughtered. I understand a village has fewer people than a planet, but the difference seems arbitrary. If he's opposed to blowing up a mass amount of people on principle it follows he wouldn't order a village full of people slaughtered arbitrarily. So what was it about the Jakku village that pissed him off just enough? Being linked with LST? Because somehow I also can't quite buy that LST's remark about his family was what set him on murder. Kylo wasn't having a bad day until FN-2187 went AWOL. Kylo and LST must have problematic history.
@MeadowofAshes

The LST and wiping out the villagers bothers me as well but I have a feeling that LST may have been the one who leaked the information about Vader being Ben's father to that rival politician of Leia's and that led to Leia's downfall. I think he holds LST in contempt for doing something personal to him and his mother. "look how old you've become" meaning they've been around each other when they were younger. I think when LST says "this will make things right", he is talking about something he did unwittingly or wittingly that shaped Ben's trajectory towards the darkside (leaking that Vader was Leia's father to her rival, or maybe he had something to do with Vader's helmet or Snoke getting in touch or closer with Ben).
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Post by Reylo Lemon on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 1:33 am

@Little_Boots wrote:When Kylo is arriving on Jakku, the only character there I felt genuine sadness for was that Alien being held down Sad anyone else feel sad for him? I felt really sad, just so pitiful or something, he looked so scared
@Little_Boots

Me too! lol!
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Post by Guest on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 2:06 am

Look at this, the console Kylo destroys after bb8 escaped

this one
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ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 4 - Page 40 200_s10

is very similar to this one (KOTOR)
ARCHIVE: Rey and Kylo - Beauty and the Beast, Scavenger and the Monstah, Their Bond, His Love, Her Confused Feelings - 4 - Page 40 Tumblr10

Yeah, i know it's just a console and probably coincidence but it's still interesting...and that's Bastila in last image Smile

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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 2:12 am

@Force22 wrote:
I think we all trust that the ending will be happy and hopeful, I don't think we should be too picky about how it's going to play out.
@Force22

To me, the journey is the most important thing, though. Sometimes I love fictional characters to bits, but if the story becomes unsatisfying or loses credibility, I simply don't care about the outcome anymore. An unsatisfying story has the power to make even the happiest of happy endings completely "meh" and the characters ultimately uninteresting in my eyes. My love is conditional Razz

I'm just surprised that "Renperor" appears to be so popular among Reylos Very Happy Well, I'll be in the minority, then.

If they're planning to turn the audience's perception of Kylo around, then "Renperor" is absolutely not the way to go, IMO. Let's not forget he's not just any ambitious Dark Side user - he killed Han Solo. His own father. His redemption is already going to be hard earned and an uphill climb within the space of two remaining films that are crowded in terms of cast, plot, and action. If the climax of Episode VIII were to be "Renperor", I'd have to conclude that they're taking the "interesting villain" route with the character, nothing more.

I guess I just never saw Kylo as a hot villain, but as a character with great potential to be moving.

Edited to add: While I do think, again, that an exploration of power and shades of evil would be interesting in a different kind of story, I don't believe there's any way they can sell "POWAH, UNLIMITED POWAH" as anything but villainous in the context of these films. There's no way the "message" will be "well, sometimes you just need a dictator to get things done, like freeing the slaves and stuff".

And if Reylo happens in this context, it will likely be the opposite of what I wanted from it.
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Post by Guest on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 2:24 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Force22 wrote:
I think we all trust that the ending will be happy and hopeful, I don't think we should be too picky about how it's going to play out.
@Force22

To me, the journey is the most important thing, though. Sometimes I love fictional characters to bits, but if the story becomes unsatisfying or loses credibility, I simply don't care about the outcome anymore. An unsatisfying story has the power to make even the happiest of happy endings completely "meh" and the characters ultimately uninteresting in my eyes. My love is conditional Razz

I'm just surprised that "Renperor" appears to be so popular among Reylos Very Happy Well, I'll be in the minority, then.

If they're planning to turn the audience's perception of Kylo around, then "Renperor" is absolutely not the way to go, IMO. Let's not forget he's not just any ambitious Dark Side user - he killed Han Solo. His own father. His redemption is already going to be hard earned and an uphill climb within the space of two remaining films that are crowded in terms of cast, plot, and action. If the climax of Episode VIII were to be "Renperor", I'd have to conclude that they're taking the "interesting villain" route with the character, nothing more.

I guess I just never saw Kylo as a hot villain, but as a character with great potential to be moving.

Edited to add: While I do think, again, that an exploration of power and shades of evil would be interesting in a different kind of story, I don't believe there's any way they can sell "POWAH, UNLIMITED POWAH" as anything but villainous in the context of these films. There's no way the "message" will be "well, sometimes you just need a dictator to get things done, like freeing the slaves and stuff".

And if Reylo happens in this context, it will likely be the opposite of what I wanted from it.
@Darth Dingbat

I agree with everything Smile I think Snoke will be the only one big bad guy, and they will kill him in the last movie..if Renpereor happens than they need to kill of Snoke either in VIII (to early) or both of them in IX..i just can't see that happen...

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Post by ZenBrainJam on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 2:46 am

@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Force22 wrote:
I think we all trust that the ending will be happy and hopeful, I don't think we should be too picky about how it's going to play out.
@Force22

To me, the journey is the most important thing, though. Sometimes I love fictional characters to bits, but if the story becomes unsatisfying or loses credibility, I simply don't care about the outcome anymore. An unsatisfying story has the power to make even the happiest of happy endings completely "meh" and the characters ultimately uninteresting in my eyes. My love is conditional Razz

I'm just surprised that "Renperor" appears to be so popular among Reylos Very Happy Well, I'll be in the minority, then.

If they're planning to turn the audience's perception of Kylo around, then "Renperor" is absolutely not the way to go, IMO. Let's not forget he's not just any ambitious Dark Side user - he killed Han Solo. His own father. His redemption is already going to be hard earned and an uphill climb within the space of two remaining films that are crowded in terms of cast, plot, and action. If the climax of Episode VIII were to be "Renperor", I'd have to conclude that they're taking the "interesting villain" route with the character, nothing more.

I guess I just never saw Kylo as a hot villain, but as a character with great potential to be moving.

Edited to add: While I do think, again, that an exploration of power and shades of evil would be interesting in a different kind of story, I don't believe there's any way they can sell "POWAH, UNLIMITED POWAH" as anything but villainous in the context of these films. There's no way the "message" will be "well, sometimes you just need a dictator to get things done, like freeing the slaves and stuff".

And if Reylo happens in this context, it will likely be the opposite of what I wanted from it.
@Darth Dingbat

I don't like the Renperor scenario. In my opinion is out of character for Kylo Ren, not to mention Ben Solo. Maybe it's just my vision of the character, maybe I don't truly understand how he is (I am not so smart), but I can't see his thirst for power at all.
I can see him giving his life to accomplish his mission or for Rey in every moment without hesitation, but not giving his soul or himself away for power.
I mean, I find very beautiful a lot of fanart of Renperor or Emperor Hux, because the Empire itself is cool. Vader, Tarkin, this grey fox of Grand Admiral that we will see in Rogue one and so on, all of this is so cool that I can't help but love it. But Kylo Ren doesn't fit into all of this. At all. He is so conflicted, so miserable, where is the joy for the power that he already has? I can't see any joy in him, just determination, and when he is with Rey the determination too start to crumble. I don't know...
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Post by panki on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 7:16 am

I hope Rey and Ben fulfill the dream that Ben's parents could not....to fly around the galaxy on the Millennium Falcon as a two member crew for a while....

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Post by Reynak on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 7:37 am

LDarth Dingbat wrote:
@AnneNeville wrote:Renperor for me = Sad
@AnneNeville

For me it would be more like:

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What a big slap in the face that would be for Leia, too.

I guess @FrolickingFizzgig is right, though - we don't owe LF anything. If they disappoint me, then they disappoint me. I don't think I'm under any obligation to force myself to go on enjoying a story if I find it a huge disappointment.

@Force22: I can't really see them telling a satisfying story where the evil overlord (who, btw, killed his own father already) isn't really so bad, he's just a conflicted hot mess, and besides there someone else who's more evil so that's okay. Going with your LOTR comparison, it would be a bit like "Saruman isn't so bad; after all, Sauron is a lot worse"...

Like I said, it would be more like an exploration of shades of evil, in that case. And Reylo would be a dark romance. Not a transformative fairytale.
@Darth Dingbatatolladero 

Yes, I agree. And I can't see any reasons for him to turn good either because feeling attracted to a woman is a poor reason on its own to make an evil man change. Love is a powerful motivator but I think a bad man in love is still a bad man. He may treat his lover right but there is no reason to change his ways and much less his views. 

If Han and Leia loved each other deeply but none of them changed their ways or their personality traits how believable is it to expect Kylo to change completely just because he is in love? 

I was sad when I knew my beloved OT OTP hadn't been all that happy and they had lost their son being unable to help him, but I have to admit that it made sense, they were too different and strong-willed to have a different relationship. Some couples love each other and have great chemistry but will always bicker, that's the way they are and it's not the recipy for a conventionally happy marriage. 

So if Kylo is power hungry and ruling the galaxy from the DS is his ultimate goal I'll roll my eyes if he leaves an empire for love. That would be lame. If he is a disaster as an emperor and then quits or is thrown out of his throne and defeated I'll like it even less. In that case I'd prfer him to be an emperor and still love Rey, because most people love, also power hungry men, and she could love him back but they would hold their ground and stay on opposite sides. Theirs would be a secret and forbidden love nobody but them would understand or approve of and an undoubtedly dark passion. It could be compelling, I quite like the idea but it wouldn't be SW as I understand it and Reylo would exist but they wouldn't be the first in each others' lives or undego a significant change as they fall in love. If we are going to have our space B&TB fairy tale his love for her must be pure, selfless and memorable and I don't think emperors have the time or the will to love a woman like that. "Duty" will always come first, and also ambition.

Also, I don't see him as someone so involved in politics in the movie. He seemed quite aloof as regards the FO. Hux is the type that could end up as a ruler, not Ren. Ren is a romantic figure, part space knight, part fool for love, mystical and "religious", someone whose mind revels in a "glorious" past he imagines grand and admires another tragically romantic figure, Anakin Skywalker, who turned DV because of a tragic love. 


They may do anything but I don't think Kylo is made for politics and playing the "game of thrones" in a galactic empire.


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Post by SanghaRen on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 7:40 am

No Renperor for me, thank you. For the same reasons that some other posters mentioned.

I did not see a power-hungry Kylo Ren in TFA. He's conflicted, wants to be free of his pain and is craving for stability while being most probably restless at the core. To me this is more the profile of a man that could lead the world to peace and then let others take over. I also see him more as a warrior and warriors don't necessarily make great leaders.

I appreciate the greyish view that seems to permeate from TFA in regards of the Republic and FO because it reflects a feeling that many people have nowadays. Democracy is a nice concept but it has shown its weaknesses for reasons that I would not want to discuss here because it could become a heated debate - and just to be clear I am not against democracy. So SW is actually putting its finger on a modern topic. However, going to another extreme where only one person holds the power? I think every nation on this planet has had to deal with this kind of regime at one point or the other in its history and I don't think it worked well for the "little" people. Sometimes you might get lucky for 1 generation but then the next one-show man appears and has another agenda as the well-being of the people. Then what? Well, you only need to look at the news to understand what happens then.

Maybe I could go for a scenario that has him take the lead of the FO but only for as long as needed before giving that power back. The problem is I don't see this kind of story happening over 2 movies of 2 hours + especially a SW movie. You know most people are here for the Force and space stuff not the ascend of an Emperor. I honestly don't see LF going this way.

Of course Reylo should be torturous. Please no harlequin story. Still you have to get the people on board too. I agree with @Darth Dingbat that killing his father is already a tough one to overcome so if you put on top of that a Renperor with all the negative aspects that people will very probably associate with a one-ruler regime, I see Kylo Ren being a very hated character. I might actually dislike him myself in the end. We already had Hux the Hitler wannabe, I'd prefer not to see a Renperor. Not if they want us to actually root for the new Skywalker generation.

It just occurred to me that fairy tales have kings and queens so if you take SW as a fairy tale, one could argue we could get a King and Queen. But then when the fairy tales are made more adult, usually the king is shown in a different light. I was thinking of King Arthur. In many versions of the story he is shown as having quite a lot of trouble, both professional and private Smile. I cannot see Kylo and Rey as King and Queen though. They're both warriors to me.

Why not have Finn as part of the next government? Wink wink to the current US president.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Thu 28 Apr 2016, 7:54 am

@Force22 wrote:
@Darth Dingbat wrote:
@Force22 wrote:
I think we all trust that the ending will be happy and hopeful, I don't think we should be too picky about how it's going to play out.
@Force22

To me, the journey is the most important thing, though. Sometimes I love fictional characters to bits, but if the story becomes unsatisfying or loses credibility, I simply don't care about the outcome anymore. An unsatisfying story has the power to make even the happiest of happy endings completely "meh" and the characters ultimately uninteresting in my eyes. My love is conditional Razz

I'm just surprised that "Renperor" appears to be so popular among Reylos Very Happy Well, I'll be in the minority, then.

If they're planning to turn the audience's perception of Kylo around, then "Renperor" is absolutely not the way to go, IMO. Let's not forget he's not just any ambitious Dark Side user - he killed Han Solo. His own father. His redemption is already going to be hard earned and an uphill climb within the space of two remaining films that are crowded in terms of cast, plot, and action. If the climax of Episode VIII were to be "Renperor", I'd have to conclude that they're taking the "interesting villain" route with the character, nothing more.

I guess I just never saw Kylo as a hot villain, but as a character with great potential to be moving.

Edited to add: While I do think, again, that an exploration of power and shades of evil would be interesting in a different kind of story, I don't believe there's any way they can sell "POWAH, UNLIMITED POWAH" as anything but villainous in the context of these films. There's no way the "message" will be "well, sometimes you just need a dictator to get things done, like freeing the slaves and stuff".

And if Reylo happens in this context, it will likely be the opposite of what I wanted from it.
@Darth Dingbat

I agree with you, but I just think that the path to Reylo is tortuous and difficult, and needs to remain so. And I don't think Renperor would mean Kylo would suddenly become like the OT Emperor. (If that's what you mean, then we're misunderstanding each other, I just mean Kylo being in a position of power, sort of like Riddick in the clip I showed).

I also appreciate the journey, but the journey needs to be difficult and conflicted. If Renperor is the way to go, then fine, it would still not be Kylo wanting UNLIMITED POWER!!!! cause that's not his thing, it would be for a sense of duty, to do whatever he thinks he needs to do, which I'm assuming is not completely evil, or else why so cryptic. He would still be Kylo, feeling more than ever the pull to the light, but suddenly with the FO at his feet, which could be a temptation away from the light, I don't know.

Don't forget that the climax of ESB is Vader cutting Luke's hand, and he got a redemption. It was rushed, yes, but I always liked that moment, I find father and son touching.

But then again, Snoke is the big bad, and will remain so, and I think Kylo is more like a warrior, a monk, someone on a mission. I don't see Renperor happening.
@Force22

I think we'll have to agree to disagree Wink Well, not even disagree, as I agree with you that I see Kylo as more of a warrior monk and I don't see Renperor happening.

Kylo wouldn't have to be like Palpatine, he could be as conflicted and wishy-washy as he pleases, he could be a poor ruler (as he probably would be) and he wouldn't have to get his jollies from "UNLIMITED POWAH!!!!", but that's still exactly the kind of power the Galactic Emperor would have. And it's not the kind of position anyone falls into by accident, especially as, based on TFA, nobody seems to trust, like or look up to him very much - except maybe his Knights of Ren, but we don't know about them either. Nor is he an Emperor's heir, called upon to do his duty, or that sort of thing. He'd have to fight tooth and claw with Hux and likely many others for that position. He'd have to be ruthless to get that throne in the first place.

As for ESB, TFA's climax was Kylo killing his own father, so I would argue that the ST is already far ahead the OT on that score.

Ultimately, I expect the Star Wars episodic films to have a strong moral core, even if grey areas are explored in the process. Interesting stories can be told with an uncertain or completely shattered moral core, but I don't believe Star Wars belongs in that category. The reason I believe in Kylo's redemption is because, to me, compassion, forgiveness, and a message of hope are the heart of that moral core as I see it. For me, it's probably the main thing that makes Star Wars so beautiful and unique. Luke had such a strong moral core and such a big heart without being holier-than-thou or a goody-two-shoes.

Game of Thrones in space, on the other hand, would be a different genre and very different from that moral core I once knew.

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http://reylo.skyforum.net/viewtopic.forum?t=184
Darth Dingbat
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