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Kylo's Mask and the Ashes

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Post by Kalianah on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 9:32 am

@AnneNeville wrote:This is unfortunately how it's gonna be for two years. We can trust our own interpretations or be filled with doubt every time a new tweet comes out. Just this morning PH liked tweets that suggest a complex Kylo, a reversal from yesterday.
@AnneNeville

Pablo I think was tired of being besieged by people suggesting that Kylo's actions were entirely someone else's fault. I get it....I also have to remember that his opinions on these things are his only and not indicative of the story...because if they were, his account would've been put on lockdown for spoilers XD
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 9:37 am

This isn't just about Reylo fandom, JJ's comments are trending in Fanboyhood and the General Audience. To me that means his comments about Kylo's ashes are surprising to a large number of people for various reasons.
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Post by panki on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 9:38 am

@vaderito....

There is a beautiful funeral in Thor Dark World where the body is burnt. and the ashes fly to the heavens....the more I think about it, the ashes must be some warrior code thing...


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Post by vaderito on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 10:19 am

@panki wrote:@vaderito....

There is a beautiful funeral in Thor Dark World where the body is burnt. and the ashes fly to the heavens....the more I think about it, the ashes must be some warrior code thing...

@panki

There you go! I love that scene, the only good one in Thor 2.
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Post by AnneNeville on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 11:18 am

The ashes thing is reminding me a certain young man I knew who just had to have a couple posters of skeletons stuck up around his dorm room, to reestablish his edginess. They were of this sort:

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http://michellemonique.deviantart.com/art/Grim-Evening-214917266

It says something about the mind to want to keep relics and reminders of this stuff close by.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 11:27 am

The problem here is I don't think Pablo or JJ really intended people to react this way. He wasn't saying that was actually part of Kylo's character. In fact, he made it pretty clear that the idea ultimately wasn't used (like other ideas they've revealed). He was talking about the shot and the background the ashes had when the expanded Vader's helmet scene was still in the movie. Obviously it wasn't in the shooting script either, because there's no mention of it in the novelization, which tells me it was abandoned a while back.

I agree with @Vaderito. I'm very invested, not going to lie, but Kylo isn't real. He's a tool to be used by writers. I'm not doubting any of my interpretations because of an abandoned idea that didn't make it into the film.

As for the information trending... who cares? Literally who cares?
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Post by AnneNeville on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 11:32 am

Kylo's Mask and the Ashes - Page 8 Dfhzhzdfzdfh

Yes, it was a discarded concept. How can it be communicated on screen without dialogue or a, I don't know, flashback showing Kylo burning his enemies and sticking the ashes in his oversized urn? How can AD play "I'm putting my helmet in the ashes of my enemies"? Although I hate to underestimate his considerable talents, I don't think that he can. Not without Kylo actually saying "Excuse me, Grandfather, while I make myself more comfortable and bathe my helmet in the earthly remains of everyone who has gotten in my way!"

What action can the actor play? Just look at the still above. Does that say "I'm putting my helmet evilly into the ashes of my enemies, har har har"?  No, it's somber and contemplative.

The idea was a stinker except as an inspiration for the designers, and perhaps as a bit of background information for AD. Background information that he cannot actually play or communicate directly.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 11:40 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:The problem here is I don't think Pablo or JJ really intended people to react this way. He wasn't saying that was actually part of Kylo's character. In fact, he made it pretty clear that the idea ultimately wasn't used (like other ideas they've revealed). He was talking about the shot and the background the ashes had when the expanded Vader's helmet scene was still in the movie. Obviously it wasn't in the shooting script either, because there's no mention of it in the novelization, which tells me it was abandoned a while back.

I agree with @Vaderito. I'm very invested, not going to lie, but Kylo isn't real. He's a tool to be used by writers. I'm not doubting any of my interpretations because of an abandoned idea that didn't make it into the film.

As for the information trending... who cares? Literally who cares?
@FrolickingFizzgig


I am always interested to hear others p.o.v., just so that I don't become overly attuned to an echo chamber.
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Post by guardienne on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 12:16 pm

ashes meta you may want to read about if you're interested in the nazi death cult.

it actualy made sense to me, believe it or not.
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Post by panki on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 12:58 pm

@guardienne wrote:ashes meta you may want to read about if you're interested in the nazi death cult.

it actualy made sense to me, believe it or not.
@guardienne


I makes total sense!!! I always felt there were similarities between the Thule Gesellschaft (and The Vril Society) and the KOR.....the only sad thing is that Kylo doesn't fit there and his trying to do all sorts of things that go against his true nature just makes it even sadder.

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Post by vaderito on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 1:31 pm

I'm like so creeped out now. The one scene I was trying to forget in TFA is coming back.

It's a good pick and I understand everything the girl is explaining, but another reference to Nazis? That's not ok in my book. Maybe it's because I come from France and more particularly from a region that was in the center of the conflict and got quite scarred. I am all for speaking about it to avoid at all costs that it happens again. But Hux in his Hitler speech in a SW movie really creeped me out. So Kylo compared to Himmler is like... No!!!

But again, I do understand the thinking behind it. I just hope it is never alluded to in VIII. They can use whatever ancient warrior cult they want, but please no (heavy) reference to Nazis like ever again *praying to the Gods of LF*

That being said, I don't want to stop any discussion. I am not angry or offended or whatever. Please feel free to discuss it further. I was just giving my p.o.v. Smile
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Post by guardienne on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 1:36 pm

@sangharen trust me i'm NOT KEEN on the nazi stuff. seriously not keen and that was even before ashgate.

i think it kinda makes sense though, i give the writer that. and as @panki says, there have been connections between other things before, which i have also pretty purposefully not explored.

i kinda like the idea that he needs all this stuff to be on the dark side, like, his investment is only in paraphernalia, otherwise it would not work at all. such a masochist.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 1:39 pm

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Post by AnneNeville on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 1:44 pm

It was cut and there's a 99.9% chance it will never be spoken of again in any later movies. It's fanfiction fodder. It was not seen as significant enough to make it into any of the novelizations or the visual dictionary (which even shows torture instruments).

Ashes are more likely to become a phoenix metaphor at this point that be the corpses of Kylo's enemies.
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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 2:02 pm

@guardienne

Yes, I can imagine you are not keen on it. My comment was in case someone from LF is lurking here Smile One can hope.

I think the cult of death is something that is present in many ancient civilizations. In our Western society we kind of lost the idea that death is part of life too. Might not be relevant here, but I am fascinated by the Day of the Dead in Mexico. I was there on holiday many years ago and saw the colorful altars and even a pile of what looked like skeletons at the entrance of a church! And I enjoyed this other take on paying your respect to dead people. I love Tim Burton's Corpse Bride and his underworld was a representation of what he saw as a child on El Día de Los Muertos.

I do agree with Kylo clinging to Dark Side stuff. He probably has some dark mantra he is repeating to himself too : "I am the Master of the Knights of Ren, I serve the wise Snoke, I will rid the Galaxy of chaos, the Dark Side is my ally..."
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Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 2:34 pm

Wow..I am a little surprised at how this recent bit of additional info has spun off and become a major issue.

Although not officially included in the film, I found the insight to be fitting for Kylo's character.
Gives a bit of further insight into how far he has fallen from the Light, and perhaps this act of saving remains was a tool Snoke used to de-humanify Ben.
That is kind of how I am looking at it...not something overly morbid for just the sake of it.

Like everything else presented, it has meaning and gives a clue to the horrid manipulation Ben has been through to twist his thought processes to what Snoke wishes them to be.
Such questionable acts are a must so that it provokes a response and gets you thinking.
This is just another example of Snoke's despicable influence here.

Kylo needs to break free from that creep..and fast.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 2:50 pm

@Kylo Ren's 8-Pack wrote:Wow..I am a little surprised at how this recent bit of additional info has spun off and become a major issue.

Although not officially included in the film, I found the insight to be fitting for Kylo's character.
Gives a bit of further insight into how far he has fallen from the Light, and perhaps this act of saving remains was a tool Snoke used to de-humanify Ben.
That is kind of how I am looking at it...not something overly morbid for just the sake of it.

Like everything else presented, it has meaning and gives a clue to the horrid manipulation Ben has been through to twist his thought processes to what Snoke wishes them to be.
Such questionable acts are a must so that it provokes a response and gets you thinking.
This is just another example of Snoke's despicable influence here.

Kylo needs to break free from that creep..and fast.
@Kylo Ren's 8-Pack
I was really not expecting everybody to have such a meltdown over an unused concept. As AnneNeville said, they're never mentioning it again. If it was important JJ wouldn't be talking about it so freely... he literally just liked the shot. JJ didn't think it was vital enough to include in the movie, the dictionary, the special features, any of it. He only answered when someone actually asked him point-blank, and I'm sure he was glad to officially debunk the "Vader's ashes" rumour.


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Post by Gemini on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 2:51 pm


@FrolickingFizzgig

I didnt expect the meltdown either...I just read it and thought, huh cool bit of insight but then kept on steppin lol
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Post by MyOnlyHope on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 2:53 pm

@Gemini wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig

I didnt expect the meltdown either...I just read it and thought, huh cool bit of insight but then kept on steppin lol
@Gemini
Especially when the Visual Dictionary shows off Kylo's array of torture instruments! That book's been out for months.
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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 3:44 pm

The ashes belong to Kylo's very first enemy : the trash compactor snake / worm. Courtesy of Mr. Brian Kesinger tweeted today.

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Post by Kylo Ren's 8-Pack on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 5:15 pm



-

Perhaps i am a morbid little soul, but i actually liked the thought that the ashes belonged to Vader.

Mwehe
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Post by Saracene on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 5:26 pm

@vaderito wrote:seriously, people, AshGate put in sharp relief how unhealthy our investment in these characters is. Kylo is a fictional character. he has no mind of his own. he does what writers tell him to do. if they say "fall in love", he falls in love. if they say "kill so and so, burn him and collect his ashes", he kills so and so, burns him and collects his ashes. That's what he is, writer's puppet like any fictional character. he is at writer's mercy and so are we with him. It's not worth it to be that invested.
@vaderito

I think a lot of the reaction came from the fact that this was a fresh reminder that Kylo is, in fact, a villain. He's done some terrible things in the movie, but the movie's been out for months now, and considering the subject of this forum we concentrate a lot on Kylo's vulnerable, human side. So this brand new tidbit is a bit like a cold-water-in-your-face reminder of the much darker aspects of the character.
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Post by Kyla Ren on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 5:40 pm

I wasn't going to post about this because yesterday I was too busy trying to catch up with everything and by now most people seem to have calmed down about it, but I have to say that I am one of the people who find the whole "ashes of his enemies" thing to be kind of creepy.  It's very serial killeresque to me. Maybe they are warrior ashes, I don't know. But I still think it's creepy. And yes, Kylo has done all sorts of horrible things that are far worse than keeping enemies' ashes, but I guess one could say that he did them out of some kind of misguided notion that he was "finishing what Darth Vader started", whatever that actually means, or some other cause he felt was just.  But the ashes thing just seems kind of creepy and twisted to me. I think it really makes him seem deranged. That, combined with other things, like the way he tells Rey that she's "his guest" when he has her restrained makes him seem kind of like a serial killer.

I'm not turning anti-Reylo.  But it does make me see Kylo's character in a more twisted light.  I mean, of course he always seemed kind of mentally unstable, but now he just seems insane.  Is that how the writers see him?  As some kind if twisted serial killer?  And if so, how are they going to pull off a redemption arc? Or are they going to just have the whole Reylo thing be unrequited love or a villainous crush on Kylo's part, with Rey maybe at most coming to not hate him by the end of the trilogy?  Or will there be requited love but only because Rey falls to the Dark Side, at least temporarily?

I know that the background to the whole ashes story isn't mentioned in the movie and probably never will be during the rest of the trilogy, so the "ashes of his enemies" probably won't be considered canon, but nevertheless, the ashes, whoever's or whatever they were, were included in that scene.  So if they're not the ashes of his enemies, then what are they and what are they doing there?  It just doesn't make sense.

I think it was a very poor editing choice to include the whole helmet in the ashes thing in the interrogation scene in the first place. I just don't think it makes sense. The ash pit isn't visible in the room and if it's supposed to be in another room and Kylo left and then came back, well, that's not what it looked like.  He just seems to walk a few feet, plunk it down, then turn back to Rey. I don't think it was a cool shot at all. It was a nonsensical shot in that context. They could have just had him hold his helmet or put a table or something else in the room for him to plunk it down on.

Clearly, I have a lot of feelings about The Ashes. Sad
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Post by rey09 on Wed 06 Apr 2016, 6:12 pm

So I'm trying to get this straight...the ashes thing is ultimately not true? JJ liked the idea but then changed his mind...? I don't get it--- if it was an old idea, why even mention it? Seems irrelevant to me.

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