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Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending

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Post by snufkin on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 3:51 pm

@Mrs Ben Solo - thanks! So it is like my initial thought that they were like some kind of idealistic quasi-religious movement that went terribly wrong and tipped over into cult territory*. And maybe Luke was like the young, handsome charismatic Protestant church minister where the ladies of the congregation always fight over whose dish he'll be eating at the church potluck

*I grew up in an area with a bunch of ex-hippies, communes (still actually one commune near my house), back to the Earth types, et cetera. Plus the whole Jonestown/People's Temple massacre was a big/weird/sad/horrifying part of regional history. So I always think of "s*** went down and things went from super idealistic to super crazy and bad" about whatever happened with Luke's New Jedi Movement.
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Post by rey09 on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 4:25 pm

When the word acolyte comes to mind, I think of the air acolytes from legend of korra lol. They couldn't be actual airbenders but they wanted to live their lives like them.

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Post by Kessel on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 4:45 pm

I am still not certain I buy the Rax = Snoke theory, just yet, but I agree that the characters are very similar and definitely overlap, so an explanation is in order. If Snoke is Rax, I could see how he would be leery of Kylo's lingering sentiments toward his family and would want to ensure Kylo severs all ties to them, considering what happened with Vader, Luke and Palpatine. Also, it's interesting that both Rax and Rey were orphans on Jakku, giving them a possible connection?

Is Rax human? I think the script indicates Snoke is not (although he's humanoid). Also, I noticed in one of the book reviews Rax's eyes are described in a way that makes them seem dark and we know that Snoke has very pale, almost colorless eyes. The most lingering doubts I have about Snoke being possibily being Rax is that it makes him look a little too much like Palpatine 2.0 and I have some doubts that Snoke's backstory would be revealed in a book before any of the movies even addresses it.  However, I'm certainly open to the possibility if it makes sense... I also still need to read Aftermath, so my opinion could change after I read it.

Another possibility to explain the Rax and Snoke connection could be that Snoke is some dark side figure Rax met/found somewhere, maybe even on Jakku?

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Post by panki on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 5:02 pm

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
@snufkin wrote:Also the use of the term Acolyte is confusing to me because what context is meant to be used in, Catholic or Protestant? It seems like the definition varies depending on your denomination. I was raised as a Methodist and in that tradition, an acolyte is somebody who helps out the minister during service. Your level of responsibility is for things like lighting/putting out candles or assisting with handing out wine/wafers during Communion. But I suspect that it's a much higher level of responsibility in Catholicism and potentially in the Star Warsy context, can anybody elaborate?
@snufkin

Acolyte in the Star Wars definition means devotee or follower. There's the Acolytes of the Beyond who worshipped and revered all things connected to the dark side of the force. Lor San Tekka was involved with The Church of the Force who believed in and revered the Jedi and everything they embodied. Their faith was based on light being triumphant over dark in the end. I guess Luke was like their Jesus or something... I'm sure that didn't go to his head at all!

Nice description @Mrs Ben Solo. Smile

I just want to add something here from the EU as well.... there were Sith Acolytes, a term for sith apprentices who just began their training under the guidance of a sith master. This was before Darth Bane brought in the Rule of Two. There are also the Dark Acolytes, a group of Dark Jedi who worked as spies and assassins for Count Dooku during the Clone Wars... so acolytes could be new force users or experienced force users who couldn't take the title of sith lord because of the rule of two.

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 5:15 pm

Thanks @panki Great info r.e the EU. It does seem to fit in with the snippets we've gathered so far in relation the Luke's acolytes and the Acolytes of the Beyond.

On another matter... This is the strangest thing I've heard so far about Life Debt...

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-ewoks-had-a-very-unexpected-job-after-return-of-the-1783548821?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_twitter&utm_source=io9_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

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Post by panki on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 5:41 pm

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Thanks @panki Great info r.e the EU. It does seem to fit in with the snippets we've gathered so far in relation the Luke's acolytes and the Acolytes of the Beyond.

On another matter... This is the strangest thing I've heard so far about Life Debt...

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-ewoks-had-a-very-unexpected-job-after-return-of-the-1783548821?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_twitter&utm_source=io9_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
@Mrs Ben Solo

Hehe... I actually love the idea of Ewoks being used for therapy...though I can't imagine patients sleeping well at night knowing Ewoks eat people Razz

But there is something else that is interesting.... if BB-8 like droids were given for therapy, I wonder if BB-8 once belonged to one of Poe's parents since they were both war veterans... there was peace in the galaxy for 30 years so it is unlikely he received one as part of a battle. Or maybe he received it because of some trauma relating to his parent's death...maybe he witnessed it and received therapy after?

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Post by MeadowofAshes on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 5:47 pm

I really love that they're addressing combat related PTSD, even if therapy droids and Ewoks are a little silly. Very Happy I have to wonder with Adam's military charity work if he had an influence on including such a serious topic in Canon in general.

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Post by CienaRee on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 5:53 pm

@MeadowofAshes wrote:I really love that they're addressing combat related PTSD, even if therapy droids and Ewoks are a little silly. Very Happy I have to wonder with Adam's military charity work if he had an influence on including such a serious topic in Canon in general.
@MeadowofAshes

I could be mistaken but I remember an interview where Adam mentioned how he and JJ talked about how many people with families died when the Rebels blew up the Death Star.
I'm also glad they're using PTD as well,(I think Leia aslo talks about calming  shell shocked soldiers in Bloodline).In the movies you usually have people fighting be fine and showing no signs of trauma or anything like that so it' really cool that authors are incorporating  such serious issues in the SW universe. Very Happy

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Post by Kessel on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 6:02 pm

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:Thanks @panki Great info r.e the EU. It does seem to fit in with the snippets we've gathered so far in relation the Luke's acolytes and the Acolytes of the Beyond.

On another matter... This is the strangest thing I've heard so far about Life Debt...

http://io9.gizmodo.com/the-ewoks-had-a-very-unexpected-job-after-return-of-the-1783548821?utm_campaign=socialflow_io9_twitter&utm_source=io9_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
@Mrs Ben Solo

Lol. I could see a cute little droid like BB-8 being used for therapy, maybe Ewoks too, I guess. I always found Ewoks to be cute from a distance, but a little bit scary up close.

The fact that Ewoks "volunteered" to serve for therapy services is kind of funny and cute. What do they do? I guess some of them, like Wicket would do alright, but there are others I could see not being well-suited to it. They can be a little aggressive.


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Post by ReyofLightSide on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 6:09 pm

I laughed at this because I can see Kylo actually doing it

Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 10 <a href=Aftermath: Life Debt by Chuck Wending - Page 10 FullSizeRender_1" />
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Post by panki on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 6:45 pm

I want to digress a little and mention something that is bugging me a lot..... I was reading reviews and going through youtube videos...... for all the hype and drama and people clamoring for a SW LGBT character (read: make Poe gay), how come nobody is discussing or applauding the fact that this book (as well as Part 1) has a lead character who is gay? I have heard it being mentioned in passing just once. I thought it was very brave of Chuck Wendig to take this step and I wish people would acknowledge that more.

This makes me think people are using this excuse of wanting an LGBT character just to create hype and not because they seriously want to see better representation. Sorry for venting but this is a big source of irritation for me.

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Post by Guest on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 7:10 pm

@panki wrote:I want to digress a little and mention something that is bugging me a lot..... I was reading reviews and going through youtube videos...... for all the hype and drama and people clamoring for a SW LGBT character (read: make Poe gay), how come nobody is discussing or applauding the fact that this book (as well as Part 1) has a lead character who is gay? I have heard it being mentioned in passing just once. I thought it was very brave of Chuck Wendig to take this step and I wish people would acknowledge that more.

This makes me think people are using this excuse of wanting an LGBT character just to create hype and not because they seriously want to see better representation. Sorry for venting but this is a big source of irritation for me.

@panki it was indeed brave of Chuck Wendig and bravo to him! But I personally believe that many of the people who clamor for a LGBT SW character are only talking about the movies and either aren't aware of the Aftermath books or feel like the movie could do a greater job of portraying LGBT characters positively and having a bigger impact on how LGBT characters are portrayed in movies and for the LGBT community as a whole. And indeed, with most of the general population only see the movies and a small percentage will only read the books, a majority of the people in general won't know about Sinjir Rath Velus, therefore they probably don't feel that doesn't have that much of an impact compared to the impact of having a gay character in a SW movie, which is much bigger than a SW book (and personally I agree with this). That being said, you could always bring this book up on those YT videos and explain that SW has portrayed a LGBT in this book and possibly make more people aware of it and want to read it! Heck, even Entertainment Weekly praised Chuck Wendig for doing this Smile.

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Post by panki on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 7:19 pm

AppleCrumble122 wrote:
@panki wrote:I want to digress a little and mention something that is bugging me a lot..... I was reading reviews and going through youtube videos...... for all the hype and drama and people clamoring for a SW LGBT character (read: make Poe gay), how come nobody is discussing or applauding the fact that this book (as well as Part 1) has a lead character who is gay? I have heard it being mentioned in passing just once. I thought it was very brave of Chuck Wendig to take this step and I wish people would acknowledge that more.

This makes me think people are using this excuse of wanting an LGBT character just to create hype and not because they seriously want to see better representation. Sorry for venting but this is a big source of irritation for me.

@panki it was indeed brave of Chuck Wendig and bravo to him! But I personally believe that many of the people who clamor for a LGBT SW character are only talking about the movies and either aren't aware of the Aftermath books or feel like the movie could do a greater job of portraying LGBT characters positively and having a bigger impact on how LGBT characters are portrayed in movies and for the LGBT community as a whole. And indeed, with most of the general population only see the movies and a small percentage will only read the books, a majority of the people in general won't know about Sinjir Rath Velus, therefore they probably don't feel that doesn't have that much of an impact compared to the impact of having a gay character in a SW movie, which is much bigger than a SW book (and personally I agree with this). That being said, you could always bring this book up on those YT videos and explain that SW has portrayed a LGBT in this book and possibly make more people aware of it and want to read it! Heck, even Entertainment Weekly praised Chuck Wendig for doing this Smile.
@AppleCrumble122

I agree there is a lack of representation in movies but unless people appreciate the first steps taken in the right direction, why would anyone bother to take further steps in that direction....I mean, if nobody even cares for this fact in the books, comics etc. why would it have any impact in the movies either except for having a token gay character? I had written a post about this some time back- about LGBT representation in SW and I found there were so many characters but barely any fan site, art etc of these characters. LGBT characters have appeared in books and canon comics but we don't hear a thing about them....I thought that at least a lead character might lead to some amount of acknowledgement... I didn't know Entertainment Weekly mentioned it... that is good news but the only other place I have even heard it mentioned was on Collider news.

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Post by ReyofLightSide on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 8:55 pm

Kessel89 wrote:I am still not certain I buy the Rax = Snoke theory, just yet, but I agree that the characters are very similar and definitely overlap, so an explanation is in order. If Snoke is Rax, I could see how he would be leery of Kylo's lingering sentiments toward his family and would want to ensure Kylo severs all ties to them, considering what happened with Vader, Luke and Palpatine. Also, it's interesting that both Rax and Rey were orphans on Jakku, giving them a possible connection?

Is Rax human? I think the script indicates Snoke is not (although he's humanoid). Also, I noticed in one of the book reviews Rax's eyes are described in a way that makes them seem dark and we know that Snoke has very pale, almost colorless eyes. The most lingering doubts I have about Snoke being possibily being Rax is that it makes him look a little too much like Palpatine 2.0 and I have some doubts that Snoke's backstory would be revealed in a book before any of the movies even addresses it.  However, I'm certainly open to the possibility if it makes sense... I also still need to read Aftermath, so my opinion could change after I read it.

Another possibility to explain the Rax and Snoke connection could be that Snoke is some dark side figure Rax met/found somewhere, maybe even on Jakku?
@Kessel89

I read a theory on another site that Rax is Snoke and he is so disfigured due to a Star Destroyer crash- but he wouldn't have been on the one which crashed on Jakku? Another theory is Snoke is the one in the tank in Rogue One.
I don't know if they would have so easily handed us who Snoke is. That is the one thing that makes me question it.
If you watch the You Have Compassion for Her youtube video, you briefly see most of the palm of Snoke's right hand and there is no tattoo at least on that hand.

There was a question of why Luke didn't do something about Snoke. I think he and Snoke have tangled in the past- and that could be the reason for his injuries.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 8:59 pm

Who's gay in Aftermath? Wizz kid? Imperial turncoat? Rae Sloane?
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:01 pm

I am definitely not being sold on Rax being Snoke. In TFA, he says he says he's seen Empires rise and fall. Not empire - empireS. Emphasis on the plural. It's not outrightly stated, but I get the feeling he is ancient. It would explain why Pablo is so adamant to state there are no Sith in TFA. I get the feeling that Snoke is much older than the Sith.

When I first began Bloodlines, I didn't give much thought to who Snoke was. I did speculate as I read the book that it was *possible* he was the person who ended up with the title of First Senator. I ended up being wrong of course, and as the book went on, it talked about an ancient evil in the far corner of the galaxy. I think this is much greater than just a random person in a book that 95% of the GA will never read. I could be wrong, but that's my two cents. I do plan on picking up this book probably some time this week, and maybe then it could make me change my mind, but for now I don't think we'll find out who Snoke is until December 2017, and that's at a minimum.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:08 pm

@IoJovi wrote:I am definitely not being sold on Rax being Snoke. In TFA, he says he says he's seen Empires rise and fall. Not empire - empireS. Emphasis on the plural. It's not outrightly stated, but I get the feeling he is ancient. It would explain why Pablo is so adamant to state there are no Sith in TFA. I get the feeling that Snoke is much older than the Sith.

cheers cheers cheers cheers cheers

Basically, at least Maz's contemporary. She is 1000 years old too. And since they keep her around, she might provide some exposition on her kindergarten buddy Snoke.

BTW, who wants to bet that lil Ben named his imaginary friend Snoke? That name is exactly what a child would give.

@IoJovi

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Post by IoJovi on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:14 pm

@vaderito I'm glad I could make your day, and make you feel a bit better! cheers

I forgot about Maz being over 1000 years old, and if that's the case, it's not far fetched to think Snoke is at least that as well. If they left Snoke completely out of Bloodlines when it's clear Leia knows him, I wouldn't think they would add him to a novel that got much less press.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:23 pm

@IoJovi wrote:@vaderito I'm glad I could make your day, and make you feel a bit better!  cheers

I forgot about Maz being over 1000 years old, and if that's the case, it's not far fetched to think Snoke is at least that as well.  If they left Snoke completely out of Bloodlines when it's clear Leia knows him, I wouldn't think they would add him to a novel that got much less press.  
@IoJovi

According to Mace Windu, Sith disappeared 1000 years before events in TP.  Maz is 1000 years old. She says:"I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them." So that means that she remembers Sith from 1000 years ago, no? Anyway, it looks like evil didn't take that many forms since she only mentioned 3, lol. And Snoke is not a Sith (Pablo) which is what he would be as Palp's apprentice, no?
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:25 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:@vaderito I'm glad I could make your day, and make you feel a bit better!  cheers

I forgot about Maz being over 1000 years old, and if that's the case, it's not far fetched to think Snoke is at least that as well.  If they left Snoke completely out of Bloodlines when it's clear Leia knows him, I wouldn't think they would add him to a novel that got much less press.  
@IoJovi

According to Mace Windu, Sith disappeared 1000 years before events in TP.  Maz is 1000 years old. She says:"I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them." So that means that she remembers Sith from 1000 years ago, no? Anyway, it looks like evil didn't take that many forms since she only mentioned 3, lol. And Snoke is not a Sith (Pablo) which is what he would be as Palp's apprentice, no?
@vaderito

Right on. If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice. It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:30 pm

@IoJovi wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:@vaderito I'm glad I could make your day, and make you feel a bit better!  cheers

I forgot about Maz being over 1000 years old, and if that's the case, it's not far fetched to think Snoke is at least that as well.  If they left Snoke completely out of Bloodlines when it's clear Leia knows him, I wouldn't think they would add him to a novel that got much less press.  
@IoJovi

According to Mace Windu, Sith disappeared 1000 years before events in TP.  Maz is 1000 years old. She says:"I've seen evil take many forms. The Sith. The Empire. Today, it is the First Order. Their shadow is spreading across the galaxy. We must face them. Fight them." So that means that she remembers Sith from 1000 years ago, no? Anyway, it looks like evil didn't take that many forms since she only mentioned 3, lol. And Snoke is not a Sith (Pablo) which is what he would be as Palp's apprentice, no?
@vaderito

Right on. If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice. It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )
@IoJovi

If it says "empires" than that's everything. The evil is in the ground on Jakku. This Rax dude is a facilitator then ... Oh and speaking of different evils ... I just read evidence of a whole other "evil" springing up in the book and I'm not at all sure that it is being run by the empire.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:33 pm

@IoJovi wrote:


Right on.  If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice.  It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )  
@IoJovi

I actually liked Plagueis theory.  Embarassed It ties up lose ends nicely, carries sentimental value. Plagueis created Anakin. Palp thought he killed him but Plagueis was hybernating and missed all the fun with Vader. So he wanted to take back what was his but Vader was already dead and Luke un-seduceable, so he turned to the most vulnerable Skywalker, baby Ben. That also allowed him to mold the little one like he would Anakin if Palp didn't put his LS through his skull. Works better than this unrelated Rax (who only has physical appearance that resembles Ben - pale skin, black hair).

@SoloSideCousin Evil in the ground = Mummy!Snoke. He looks like a fossil so just make him one. What if Snoke is the big bad behind Rax? After all, Rax excavated something didn't he?
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:38 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:


Right on.  If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice.  It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )  
@IoJovi

I actually liked Plagueis theory.  Embarassed It ties up lose ends nicely, carries sentimental value. Plagueis created Anakin. Palp thought he killed him but Plagueis was hybernating and missed all the fun with Vader. So he wanted to take back what was his but Vader was already dead and Luke un-seduceable, so he turned to the most vulnerable Skywalker, baby Ben. That also allowed him to mold the little one like he would Anakin if Palp didn't put his LS through his skull. Works better than this unrelated Rax (who only has physical appearance that resembles Ben - pale skin, black hair).
@vaderito

I noticed that resemblance as well ... You know how Ransolm Casterfo seemed to be a Ben analogue ... the good Empire type that Ben could be .... what if this Rax is the creature that Snoke is trying to make Ben into? There does not appear to be anything inherently magical about Rax. He actually thinks how something "the Force/dark side" whatever is dragging him to the ship like a "collar and lease" ... He's somebody else's "acolyte" ... It's like a layer cake of people running people.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:41 pm

@SoloSideCousin wrote:


I noticed that resemblance as well ... You know how Ransolm Casterfo seemed to be a Ben analogue ... the good Empire type that Ben could be .... what if this Rax is the creature that Snoke is trying to make Ben into?  There does not appear to be anything inherently magical about Rax.  He actually thinks how something "the Force/dark side" whatever is dragging him to the ship like a "collar and lease" ... He's somebody else's "acolyte" ... It's like a layer cake of people running people.
@SoloSideCousin

It looks like Rax has some Force Sensitivity but you are right about possibility that something puppeteers him. 

Also, if Snoke is so hot for more children of the Empire/FO, wouldn't he breed little Kylos from Kylo's genetic stick instead of putting him in that GPS'd chastity belt?
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Post by IoJovi on Tue 12 Jul 2016, 9:43 pm

@vaderito wrote:
@IoJovi wrote:


Right on.  If he's not a Sith, then that pretty much negates him from being Palpatine's apprentice.  It would also make him NOT Plagueis (like that needs repeating... Laughing )  
@IoJovi

I actually liked Plagueis theory.  Embarassed It ties up lose ends nicely, carries sentimental value. Plagueis created Anakin. Palp thought he killed him but Plagueis was hybernating and missed all the fun with Vader. So he wanted to take back what was his but Vader was already dead and Luke un-seduceable, so he turned to the most vulnerable Skywalker, baby Ben. That also allowed him to mold the little one like he would Anakin if Palp didn't put his LS through his skull. Works better than this unrelated Rax (who only has physical appearance that resembles Ben - pale skin, black hair).

@SoloSideCousin Evil in the ground = Mummy!Snoke. He looks like a fossil so just make him one. What if Snoke is the big bad behind Rax? After all, Rax excavated something didn't he?
@vaderito

Don't get me wrong - I liked the Plagueis theory as well. It would have made a nice tie-in to the other two trilogies. It's just that Pablo had to repeat a dozen times that Snoke was Snoke, and people were still arguing with him and calling him a liar.
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