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AFTERMATH: EMPIRE'S END (Countdown, Speculation, Reviews, Spoilers)

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Post by teltaru on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:33 am

@CienaRee
@Irina de France
@vaderito

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The part about Luke reassuring Leia that the baby was going to be OK got me thinking- I wonder if they tried to rationalise Ben's problems throughout the years beyond reason.

Damn this is some dark ****.

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Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:41 am

@teltaru wrote:@CienaRee
@Irina de France
@vaderito

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The part about Luke reassuring Leia that the baby was going to be OK got me thinking- I wonder if they tried to rationalise Ben's problems throughout the years beyond reason.

Damn this is some dark ****.
@teltaru

I think that Luke is right about feeling Light and Dark as normal but he didn't know about the intrusion that troubled the baby. I mena, the whole thing was pulled off cause nobody suspected something was off.
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Post by Guest on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:46 am

@teltaru wrote:@CienaRee
@Irina de France
@vaderito

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. The part about Luke reassuring Leia that the baby was going to be OK got me thinking- I wonder if they tried to rationalise Ben's problems throughout the years beyond reason.

Damn this is some dark ****.
@teltaru

I think it's clear (from Bloodline) that Luke ,in particular, is fervent in his belief of light overcoming darkness, primarily in relation to Anakin's redemption but the way Leia described it (his beatific smile and the feeling of inner peace he draws from it) it seems like a religious kind of fervour on Luke's part. I'm not pointing the finger of blame at Luke and Leia but it does appear that they were overconfident in the ability of light to drive back the darkness. This obviously left baby Ben exposed to evil forces beyond his family's understanding. Luke must feel some degree of shame and culpability in the dreadful fate that befell his nephew. It didn't exactly look like he'd achieved a zen-like state of peace on Ahch-To!

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 10:49 am

@BastilaBey wrote:This is why Ben's lineage is a curse, not just a privilege. I know much of the anti narrative is around 'he had everything growing up, finn and rey had nothing!' But it's not that simple, especially when the weight of Vader's legacy is very real in this universe. It's something luke and leia struggle with, and it makes sense for leia's son to as well. He didn't find out until his 20s that he was the grandson of an evil Sith lord, but was being targeted for that very reason before he was even born. It's horrifying. But we were right to pick up on the 'cursed prince is rescued by the heroine with humble origins' framing of TFA.
@BastilaBey


This is what gets me so mad regarding people's attitude to Kylo.
'Oh, he had a privileged life blah blah..'
I've read real life stories of people born into wealth who had horrible lives. Just because Kylo was born to a pair of wealthy heroes doesn't mean his life was all sunshine and roses. His suffering may have been different than that of Rey and Finn,but it was just as painful. And he fought all his life against an insidious and cruel enemy,until he just couldn't fight anymore.
He's every bit as courageous as Rey and Finn.
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Post by teltaru on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 11:04 am

@Mrs Ben Solo

The rumour that Luke would have Kylo killed sounds even more strange now that we know all this.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 11:18 am

It does throw a new light onto why Luke looked so haunted at the end of TFA.
Everyone thinks it's because Kylo killed his Padawans. But maybe it's because he knew he'd failed his nephew.
Also...if Luke wants Kylo dead maybe it's because he thinks he's irreversibly 'tainted'....but as someone who's experienced his 'compassion' maybe Rey knows different.
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Post by Guest on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 11:23 am

@teltaru wrote:@Mrs Ben Solo

The rumour that Luke would have Kylo killed sounds even more strange now that we know all this.
@teltaru

Maybe or it could be that his faith has been so broken he now believes there's no other way and more people will suffer if Kylo isn't killed.

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Post by teltaru on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 11:44 am

Mrs Ben Solo wrote:
Maybe or it could be that his faith has been so broken he now believes there's no other way and more people will suffer if Kylo isn't killed.
@Mrs Ben Solo

That's certainly possible. I'd probably hate it if this was the case, the thought that after all he had gone through to redeem his father, Luke would give up on his nephew doesn't sit right with me. But I thought I was going to hate Kylo too, and in that case the context changed everything, so I'll hold my judgement.

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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:07 pm

I'm curious as to how antis are going to respond when this information comes out and starts spreading. Because most of them aren't just against Reylo, they've come to actively hate Kylo and argue that there's nothing sympathetic about him.

How on earth can they continue claiming that if they read this?
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Post by Helix on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:20 pm

I've still seen Antis try to say this 'changes nothing'. Denial runs deep with them.
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Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:23 pm

@Helix wrote:I've still seen Antis try to say this 'changes nothing'. Denial runs deep with them.
@Helix

It does. There are 5 stages of grief (which is what one really feels when their theory is dying or dies) and they are still stuck in stage 1 (denial) after a year and 2 months! Laughing
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Post by Pyro Nebula on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:24 pm

Interesting. Hopefully, certain elements of Snoke's depravity should be shown on in TLJ for the GA. It's great the novels expands the disturbing influence Snoke had on Ben during Leia's pregnancy, but would the GA know that? Their impression of Kylo from TFA is one volatile, cruel, evil war criminal who gave the order to slaughter villagers, brutally tortured Poe and together with Rey, witnessed Kylo murdering His father and splitting Finn's back open, therefore he's a "monster ", beyond redemption and Rey's 'cousin/brother'  confused

For the GA to become more receptive to Reylo, or at least Ben's worthy for redemption, they need to be shown reasons why they should be sympathetic towards the 'cursed prince' (as well as expanding the force bond with Rey and her empathy) I'm sure most would not have read the new EU, only what's shown on the big screen, Leia only mentioned Snoke seducing Ben to the Dark Side but not exactly when. If they see memories of Snoke's repulsive influence on a very young Ben, maybe they'll scream, "Oh Rey, save him!!!"

As for the antis, they're beyond redemption (hope that's not imflammatory)

Cheers.

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Post by vaderito on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:27 pm

@Pyro nebula

Yep, it's going to be interesting how they explain Snoke's influence in the movie. We know how early it started but movies may not elaborate cause too dark.
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:30 pm

I'm trying to think of how they can put this in the movie. Because if this is suggesting what we think, it's a HUGE part of Ben's fall. Glossing over it in the movies when they plan on redeeming Kylo would be a terrible mistake and a waste.

Since Star Wars isn't big on flashbacks, all I can see is Rey having some vision or somehow reconnecting with Kylo's mind and seeing some flash of a child Ben struggling against Snoke's influence/hearing his voice. Then it's presented to the audience AND to her, both of which are vital.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:33 pm

@Pyro Nebula wrote:Interesting. Hopefully, certain elements of Snoke's depravity should be shown on in TLJ for the GA. It's great the novels expands the disturbing influence Snoke had on Ben during Leia's pregnancy, but would the GA know that? Their impression of Kylo from TFA is one volatile, cruel, evil war criminal who gave the order to slaughter villagers, brutally tortured Poe and together with Rey, witnessed Kylo murdering His father and splitting Finn's back open, therefore he's a "monster ", beyond redemption and Rey's 'cousin/brother'  confused

For the GA to become more receptive to Reylo, or at least Ben's worthy for redemption, they need to be shown reasons why they should be sympathetic towards the 'cursed prince' (as well as expanding the force bond with Rey and her empathy) I'm sure most would not have read the new EU, only what's shown on the big screen, Leia only mentioned Snoke seducing Ben to the Dark Side but not exactly when. If they see memories of Snoke's repulsive influence on a very young Ben, maybe they'll scream, "Oh Rey, save him!!!"

As for the antis, they're beyond redemption (hope that's not imflammatory)

Cheers.
@Pyro Nebula
When they clearly hold back something in ancillary material you can guarantee there's a reason, and that reason is it'll be explored elsewhere (in this case the films). Ben's actual backstory (everything beyond being targeted by Snoke in the womb and mentioned briefly in Bloodline) hasn't been outlined at all because it's going to be in TLJ/IX. Same goes for anything regarding Rey's backstory/origins. If it wasn't canonically important to the movies I guarantee we would have received a comic or book adaptation of Ben's origin story already as there has been a massive demand for it, as we did with Poe's and Hux's pasts. So IMO there's no doubt that they're saving certain things for the movies when it comes to Ben and what happened to him. His relationship with Luke, what the two of them were doing, how Snoke got to him, what really happened to the other members of the young generation of Jedi, etc. is going to be part of the ST story.

@ZioRen
It can be extremely brief, trust me. We have confirmation from MSW that they're exploring the massacre, and if they're exploring that no doubt they're going back further as well. Maybe not flashbacks, but none of it even has to be outright stated. Rey would need only see images or small scenes (like she already did in the Force Back) in order for the audience to grasp what happened.
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:37 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@ZioRen
It can be extremely brief, trust me. We have confirmation from MSW that they're exploring the massacre, and if they're exploring that no doubt they're going back further as well. Maybe not flashbacks, but none of it even has to be outright stated. Rey would need only see images or small scenes (like she already did in the Force Back) in order for the audience to grasp what happened.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Oh yeah. I was actually picturing Rey getting a sort of "abridged" version of Kylo's past, from childhood through fall. So everything would be brief. As long as it's not as strange and vague as TFA's lightsaber sequence, the audience will get it.
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Post by nemapasara on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:40 pm

@ZioRen wrote:I'm trying to think of how they can put this in the movie. Because if this is suggesting what we think, it's a HUGE part of Ben's fall. Glossing over it in the movies when they plan on redeeming Kylo would be a terrible mistake and a waste.

Since Star Wars isn't big on flashbacks, all I can see is Rey having some vision or somehow reconnecting with Kylo's mind and seeing some flash of a child Ben struggling against Snoke's influence/hearing his voice. Then it's presented to the audience AND to her, both of which are vital.
@ZioRen

I can also see Luke mentioning it to her, possibly narrating Ben's fall with flashes of moments throughout. I don't know if they filmed the part of Rey's forceback that was supposed to have a young Ben and Snoke but if they did, they could use it then.
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Post by Darth Dingbat on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:43 pm

Yeah, they cut out all parts about young Ben from TFA for a reason - parts that were originally supposed to be there. The tragic backstory is clearly returning with a vengeance in TLJ or IX, and it's going to be a tearjerker, IMO.

Best way to make the audience comprehend what Snoke was doing? Show what it did to little Ben. Narration doesn't have the same impact. Knowing, through exposition, what happened to the Kylo we know as a 30-year-old some decades previously won't have the same impact.

But few people in the audience will be able to tune out when they see a child in distress.
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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:49 pm

Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
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Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:50 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
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Post by CienaRee on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:57 pm

@Irina de France wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
@Irina de France

Yoou know I think it's posisble that Ben's outbursts are the reulst of not only Snoke's abuse but also from him bottling up his true emtions for many years.I mean judging from Bloodline Leia doesn't seme to be too worried about Ben and thinks everything's alright so I suspect that Ben was covering up how he was truly feeling.Sad

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Post by nemapasara on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 1:58 pm

@Darth Dingbat

I've always thought that young Ben might've had nightmares as a result of Snoke's influence in his mind so I think it'd be cool to see that play out somehow. It'll be interesting to see how they pull it off, if they're really going to explore it.
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Post by SanghaRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:00 pm

@Irina de France wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
@Irina de France

But this scenario has nothing to do with his outbursts. If Ben starts acting out and Leia or Luke tries to "scan" him and only feels his turmoil and not Snoke's presence, why should they think anything else but Ben being this way because it's his personality. That's what I mean. I don't see Ben as a quiet kid. He's not exactly calm in Leia's womb neither apparently.
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Post by Irina de France on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:02 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:
@Irina de France wrote:
@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Honestly, Ben doesn't look like the kind of person who'd keep his feelings bottled up. I mean, his outbursts on equipment are the proof. I think the issue is that he never learned how to canalize it all properly, hence the outbursts.

God, his so-called tantrums get more tragic by the minute. Sad
@Irina de France

But this scenario has nothing to do with his outbursts. If Ben starts acting out and Leia or Luke tries to "scan" him and only feels his turmoil and not Snoke's presence, why should they think anything else but Ben being this way because it's his personality. That's what I mean. I don't see Ben as a quiet kid. He's not exactly calm in Leia's womb neither apparently.
@SanghaRen

I agree, especially considering who his parents are. Leia and Han aren't really introverted people either. XD
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Post by ZioRen on Wed 15 Feb 2017, 2:04 pm

@SanghaRen wrote:Jumping in on Leia and Luke not realizing that Ben was the victim of Snoke.

Maybe Luke and Leia did not sense the danger because Ben did not show any sign of being a victim of a predator. Why assume that Snoke was already clawing in from the start? He could have been a re-assuring presence at first for Ben, poisoning his mind little by little. There was a discussion in some thread some months ago about Snoke acting as Ben's invisible friend. If Snoke is good at masking his Force presence, Leia and Luke would only feel the disturbance in Ben and if Snoke told Ben to not mention him, you'd have everyone being unaware of what was really going on and think that Ben was a troublesome kid and teenager, which would also explain why Leia preferred to say nothing about Vader's true identity.
@SanghaRen

Based on the quotes in the book, I think Snoke was all out clawing when Ben was in the womb/a small baby. I think he may have changed tactics as Ben grew up.
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