The Last Jedi General Discussion (Spoilers Allowed)

Unfortunately my computer won't scan but if anyone can do this please publish some of what is in the Souvenir- or give links to tumblr if we have to watch that this forum isn't invaded by rodents. This is what I can say - the bond between Kylo and Rey is a 'mysterious connection', Hux is shown as planning to betray both Snoke and Kylo , and Snoke is disturbed by Rey.

@IoJovi wrote:

@thescavenger wrote:

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have just bought the souvenir guide to TLJ. And it mentions that Snoke trained another apprentice. Will another Dark sider appear? The plot thickens.....

@motherofpearl1


Ooh can we see?

@thescavenger

Well color me intrigued!!!

@IoJovi

HMMMMMMMM...A failed apprentice? They could already be dead or He/She could be wondering around out there?    Not sure how I feel about that.

I still see a coup happening with Hux at the forefront. I think that would be really interesting, especially since the military leaders in the Empire hated Vader and his ancient religion. You also have this commentary on privilege. Ben/Kylo coming from a "special bloodline" and being gifted with the force. Then you have Hux, who has had to scratch his way to the top, with a "tainted bloodline". I don't think Kylo is going to make the best Supreme Leader, but instead of being terrible I'd rather he starts implementing changes that send the FO into a grayer area. These changes would upset the military commanders and financial backers because as we saw in TFA, Kylo is not for blowing up planets.

I could also see a reverse Order 66 happening here. With Kylo and the Knights of Ren being taken down.

Wasn't there something else that also suggested Snoke had multiple apprentices before Ben Solo? I remember this being discussed before.

One thing that sticks in my mind is Kylo being revolted by the destruction of Hosnia. Maybe through the Force bond with Rey he starts to make the FO more human which leads Hux to rebel. I am absolutely convinced there is going to be a confrontation with them in IX.

@IoJovi wrote:

@thescavenger wrote:

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I have just bought the souvenir guide to TLJ. And it mentions that Snoke trained another apprentice. Will another Dark sider appear? The plot thickens.....

@motherofpearl1


Ooh can we see?

@thescavenger

Well color me intrigued!!!

@IoJovi

Would be interesting if it is a female apprentice who tries to align with Kylo- cue jealousy from Rey.

After Kylo became Supreme Leader, my husband leans over and says: Kylo isn't going to be supreme leader long....look at Hux. Hux will plan a coup of some sort.

@Birdwoman wrote:After Kylo became Supreme Leader, my husband leans over and says: Kylo isn't going to be supreme leader long....look at Hux. Hux will plan a coup of some sort.

@Birdwoman
Oh you know it. Look at the way Hux kept trying to undermine Kylo after he took over. Every time KR gave an order Hux would repeat the same thing like it was his idea. And I loved the expression on Ben's face each time he did it.

@Darth Dementor wrote:

@Birdwoman wrote:After Kylo became Supreme Leader, my husband leans over and says:  Kylo isn't going to be supreme leader long....look at Hux.  Hux will plan a coup of some sort.

@Birdwoman
Oh you know it.  Look at the way Hux kept trying to undermine Kylo after he took over.   Every time KR gave an order Hux would repeat the same thing like it was his idea.  And I loved the expression on Ben's face each time he did it.

@Darth Dementor

I thought that was hilarious and extremely well-done.

And let's not forget that Hux started to pull out his gun when he first came across the unconscious Kylo in the throne room. He was going to take out Kylo while he wasn't even awake.

ETA: On top of that, Hux conspired with Phasma to kill his own father. There's no way he'd hesitate to kill Kylo if/when he gets the chance.

@ISeeAnIsland wrote:

@Darth Dementor wrote:

@Birdwoman wrote:After Kylo became Supreme Leader, my husband leans over and says:  Kylo isn't going to be supreme leader long....look at Hux.  Hux will plan a coup of some sort.

@Birdwoman
Oh you know it.  Look at the way Hux kept trying to undermine Kylo after he took over.   Every time KR gave an order Hux would repeat the same thing like it was his idea.  And I loved the expression on Ben's face each time he did it.

@Darth Dementor

I thought that was hilarious and extremely well-done.

And let's not forget that Hux started to pull out his gun when he first came across the unconscious Kylo in the throne room. He was going to take out Kylo while he wasn't even awake.

ETA:  On top of that, Hux conspired with Phasma to kill his own father. There's no way he'd hesitate to kill Kylo if/when he gets the chance.

@ISeeAnIsland

LOL, Yeah true.  I forgot where I heard it from but someone pointed out when you wake up and someone's standing over top of you to kill you, ya gotta work on your personality.   Once, yeah that could happen to anyone but more than that? At that point maybe it's you?

A random rather sombre thought...

TLJ didn't dig into the political side of the SW verse - but it is underneath it all...
I know we can't be 100% certain what kind of emperor Kylo will be..
But it's tragic to see him take the leadership of the FO when remembering what his grandmother Padme had said:
“So this is how liberty dies,” she said. “With thunderous applause.”
With what we have seen of the FO so far, they don't believe in liberty. They are merciless and oppressive.

I really hope in IX the story doesn't just address the Anakin/Vader legacy - but what Padme contributed also: and maybe Ben will be instrumental in the restoration of liberty.

@ZioRen wrote:Wow this is a really, really good point that I hadn't thought about before. It seems so obvious now that I see it written out! Not that I ever thought they were manipulating each other through the bond at all, but connecting that specific scene to that didn't occur to me.

Kylo’s first line to Rey through the Force Bond is: “You will bring Luke Skywalker to me.” It’s a command, an attempt to use this new connection to find Luke, and it fails miserably. Rey just stands there staring at him and Kylo withdraws his hand, looking down as if he’s embarrassed he even attempted that again with her. This serves a really important signaling function: it tells the audience that while there is a bridge between their minds, the Force Bond cannot be used to manipulate or control the other person. That this is the first message Rian chose to send is so beautiful, because from that moment on, you know that Rey and Kylo are making their own choices and building something real.

Source

@ZioRen

This is an awesome observation!

Yeah! This failure tells them and us that he can't just boss her around!

I noted Kylo early on says to himself as he is trying to figure out what is going on something like:
You couldn't have done this your not powerful enough - i.e. he knows she is not trying to manipulate him.
When she shoots at him and he doesn't actually get shot - it also means that neither can physically hurt the other..
So the seeds for the development of the connection are planted and they can grow from that.
Unique and safe - the connection is exactly what they were both needing

They are sending out the TLJ Oscar Screener DVDs. So there will be a fully leaked and good quality copy of TLJ soon.

OK 2nd viewing and a couple thing which stood out:

- Am I the only Young Ones fan who recognized Captain Peavey? Who knew that the First Order recruited from Scumbag University? Although pairing him up with a Ginger, I kept expecting him to call Hux a wanker.

- Speaking of Hux, the leadership transition in the First Order going forward is going to be interesting. Besides pulling his gun on Kylo and not having the chance to shoot him then, there was a very pointed look at him at the end when they finally enter the abandoned base.

- The theme of learning from mistakes, how many did we count? It opens with Poe's attempt to take out the Dreadnaught and further attempts continuing to thin the ranks of the Resistance until he learns his lesson (reinforced by Luke's appearance). There's Finn attempting to flee in Rey's direction only to get pulled into Rose's orbit. Their failed attempt to break into the lightspeed tracking device which in turns causes the FO to take out more of the Resistance, and she has to save him (with the film's thesis) from a foolhardy suicide mission. And then the biggest of all, Rey tries to 'save' Ben/get him to turn. Which she probably fancies is going to be like Leia rescuing Han from Jabba. Which yeah, Snoke meets the same fate. But Ben basically makes a decision that would be like Han deciding he wants to stick around Jabba's place and take over the operation. Not that Luke was being terribly helpful with her, but Rey 100% blows up that whole situation by charging in there hoping that she can make doe eyes at Ben and he'll help her come to the rescue.

- Some paralleling with characters, like Ben and Poe's respective attempts at mutiny and how good/bad they go down. Looks like Poe's the only one who learns his lesson versus Ben likely having Hux plotting against him.

- Sorry BdT, I love you but that performance wasn't even Tom Waits. Like Waits would've done some genuinely off the wall and brilliant things with that character. What we got instead was Buster Poindexter at best.

- Not that Oscar Isaac isn't pretty to look at, but man do I agree that keeping Poe alive ate up potential screentime/plot points/character arcs for Finn. And Rose just kind of takes over Finn's side of the narrative to the extent that she's one of the central protagonists, albeit the most highly evolved out of all the characters.

- The bit about students surpassing their teachers, there's probably a nice little one in there about Paige's influence on Rose from the hints they've dropped about novelization tie-in for those two characters.

- Battle of Crait was like a really uncomfortable and ugly family get together. It's also a bit of a hilarious play on how Vader's assault on Hoth in ESB is basically a brother and sister having their a**hole biological father who's been demanding a relationship showing up at their place and spending 2 hours trying to ditch him.

- Wouldn't have noticed it without the post here, but that poor nerd, his calligraphy set was next to the bed he was sleeping in when Uncle Luke contemplates murdering him.

- No missing the religious and sexual imagery. Hats off to the filmmakers for making a Disney movie that's both deeply religious and sex-positive.

Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

LOL
Thank you.
We should stick and pin somewhere this quote on the forum as a reminder when any of us is tempted to loose the faith!

@Darth_Awakened wrote:

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

LOL
Thank you.
We should stick and pin somewhere this quote on the forum as a reminder when any of us is tempted to loose the faith!

@Darth_Awakened
Basically this is "I'm not writing the next movie but mah boy JJ got your back. If not... not my fault!"

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@Darth_Awakened wrote:

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

LOL
Thank you.
We should stick and pin somewhere this quote on the forum as a reminder when any of us is tempted to loose the faith!

@Darth_Awakened
Basically this is "I'm not writing the next movie but mah boy JJ got your back. If not... not my fault!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Speaking of JJ, this is from a Forbes article:



Source: https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/943694422969118720

Yeah sure, JJ will come back and save all the heartbroken fanboys.

@EchoBase wrote:

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@Darth_Awakened wrote:

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

LOL
Thank you.
We should stick and pin somewhere this quote on the forum as a reminder when any of us is tempted to loose the faith!

@Darth_Awakened
Basically this is "I'm not writing the next movie but mah boy JJ got your back. If not... not my fault!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Speaking of JJ, this is from a Forbes article:



Source: https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/943694422969118720

Yeah sure, JJ will come back and save all the heartbroken fanboys.

@EchoBase
Oh yeah, JJ "SW is a fairytale" Abrams is the OG creator of both Kylo and Reylo. He oversaw everything Rian did and fully approved. Wanting or expecting him to uproot two film's worth of character development and relationship building is totally wacko. He and Rian did this together. They shared dailies and went in a very specific direction (subverted fairytale tropes and a heroine's journey) together.

I'm going to laugh at anybody who thinks JJ wanted to return for Poe Dameron or Force Ghost Luke. He's back for Rey and Kylo.

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@EchoBase wrote:

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:

@Darth_Awakened wrote:

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

LOL
Thank you.
We should stick and pin somewhere this quote on the forum as a reminder when any of us is tempted to loose the faith!

@Darth_Awakened
Basically this is "I'm not writing the next movie but mah boy JJ got your back. If not... not my fault!"

@FrolickingFizzgig

Speaking of JJ, this is from a Forbes article:



Source: https://twitter.com/sleemo_/status/943694422969118720

Yeah sure, JJ will come back and save all the heartbroken fanboys.

@EchoBase
Oh yeah, JJ "SW is a fairytale" Abrams is the OG creator of both Kylo and Reylo. He oversaw everything Rian did and fully approved. Wanting or expecting him to uproot two film's worth of character development and relationship building is totally wacko. He and Rian did this together. They shared dailies and went in a very specific direction (subverted fairytale tropes and a heroine's journey) together.

I'm going to laugh at anybody who thinks JJ wanted to return for Poe Dameron or Force Ghost Luke. He's back for Rey and Kylo.

@FrolickingFizzgig

Now, now. Don’t knock Force Ghost Luke. I for one am looking forward to him coming back and tormenting his dangerous dreamboat nefarious nephew. When he said “See you around, Kid,” that made my heart sing with glee...

Ok maybe I'm slow...but am I missing something in the logic of the writer from that article about Rian's take on redemption?

As for whether or not Johnson believes Kylo Ren can now find redemption following the events of The Last Jedi, the director is determined that the villain's turn to the Dark Side is a permanent one.  
 
"Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. 

@EchoBase wrote:Oh this is good:

https://www.comicbookmovie.com/sci-fi/star_wars/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-weighs-in-on-luke-skywalkers-allegiances-and-redemption-for-kylo-ren-a156485

“Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

@EchoBase

I found the original article they pulled this quote from, it was with IGN. There’s a few comments before the above quote.

It can be argued Ben Solo might not have become Kylo Ren had he not witnessed his own uncle/mentor considering murdering him in his sleep. But if this moment of weakness on Luke's part is what propelled Ben's downfall then doesn't that suggest this damage could be undone? Rey may have seen potential for Kylo's redemption but Johnson believes that, for Luke at least, that proverbial ship has sailed: "He says, 'I can’t save him.' 'I can’t save him.' I don’t think Luke can save him."

But when pressed whether he himself thinks Kylo Ren is potentially redeemable, Johnson shrugged and laughed, "Yeah." After all, the last Skywalker who fell to the Dark Side was saved in the end.


"Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. "Also, I should just for the record [say] that I’m not involved in the writing of the next movie. I’m an audience member in it, just like you, so when I talk about what’s going to happen next it’s in the context of, as a fan, what I’m thinking of."

http://m.ign.com/articles/2017/12/20/star-wars-the-last-jedi-director-on-luke-skywalkers-greatest-temptation-to-the-dark-side

I think this speaks to the idea that Kylo has to save himself (with inspiration and support from Rey).

@rey09 wrote:Ok maybe I'm slow...but am I missing something in the logic of the writer from that article about Rian's take on redemption?

As for whether or not Johnson believes Kylo Ren can now find redemption following the events of The Last Jedi, the director is determined that the villain's turn to the Dark Side is a permanent one.  
 
"Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. 

@rey09

yeah, that was something strange. Like wtf?

@rey09 wrote:Ok maybe I'm slow...but am I missing something in the logic of the writer from that article about Rian's take on redemption?

As for whether or not Johnson believes Kylo Ren can now find redemption following the events of The Last Jedi, the director is determined that the villain's turn to the Dark Side is a permanent one.  
 
"Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. 

@rey09

I can’t speak for the writer’s comments, but Johnson’s comment has a green arrow pointing straight to redemption.

We are ALL aware here how meaningless a journalist’s interjection can be... In this case, they clearly misunderstood him.

@SkyStar wrote:

@rey09 wrote:Ok maybe I'm slow...but am I missing something in the logic of the writer from that article about Rian's take on redemption?

As for whether or not Johnson believes Kylo Ren can now find redemption following the events of The Last Jedi, the director is determined that the villain's turn to the Dark Side is a permanent one.  
 
"Are you kidding? Vader was worse than Kylo ever was, I think, and Vader got redeemed," Johnson said. 

@rey09

yeah, that was something strange. Like wtf?

@SkyStar

That was definitely their backwards interpretation. That’s not in the actual interview they copied and pasted the quotes from.