Re: Episode IX CRACK spoiler discussion thread

[snufkin]

The going ronin scenario would've been fun if they were throwing the chess board up in the air and having both sides fracture where Rey and Kylo having to team up and trust each other. But it's pretty clear that the idea they're playing with is what would've happened in the PT where Young Vader overthrows his evil boss to protect his bae, but she's pissed at him and nopes out to go fight for the opposite side because she can't be with him under those circumstances. Hopefully this time with a less tragic ending.

As for FAFs, if they're silly there's at least some entertainment value. But a lot of them you can reject outright because they recycle cliches they've seen in television or more contemporary (and derivative) films. Anything that sounds like it's checking off the box of disgruntled fan wish lists or blantantly tonally wrong if you know the writers/director is pretty easy to dismiss out of hand. There was multiple ones for TLJ which sounded like they'd hired Eli Roth to write it, when all they needed to do was study Rian Johnson's previous films and television shows to get an idea about the themes and types of characters he tends to be interested in. He outright recycles plot points from Looper (lead is orphan with the need to prove themselves as a good person because of childhood trauma caused by addict parent selling them off in exchange for a fix, an older male character tries to murder younger character to prevent catastrophic future from happening and sets off a different chain of events which still fulfill their worst fears, telekinetic powers, hitman betrays boss because of bond developed with target, creepy older mentor who groomed and abused male lead, male lead falls in love with female lead who's supposed to be his target/mark and chaos ensues) or Brothers Bloom (male lead falls in love with female lead who's supposed to be his target/mark, chaos ensues, creepy older mentor who groomed and abused male lead).

I don't think you can predict what JJ will do beyond expanding ideas he said he had after TFA and likely after reading TLJ's script. But I'd bet we get more Force Bond stuff a la Olivia's psychic link with her former lover/partner in Fringe, Keri Russell kicking a** because he got the idea for Alias while working with her on Felicity and a bunch of growing up/leaving the nest for the younger characters, as well as Rey and the other younger female characters having the same type of relationships and conversations which made that such a great show. And he worked with Kasdan and Carrie Fisher/Harrison Ford on the script and story for TFA where we get crumbs of their ideas forming a foundation for things like the Force Bond, Ben and Rey's relationship, and the ultimate meaning behind Han's gambit to save Ben paying off. If something drops that sounds like the T*ts and Dragons show or another round of torture porn sounding spoilers (hint, the really gruesome stuff has only ever been family members hurting each other and at this point, it's only Leia and Ben left and he's not hurting his mommy), that's easy to ignore.

Can we just have some ridiculous ones? Or can somebody spread around my nominee for crack spoiler that Matt Smith will be Ranselm Casterfo? Because at least that's an interesting one to debate because Bloodline is such a great novel and was culled from an entire plotline they had to cut from the earlier versions of TFA.

[Saracene]

I'd love to see a friendship between Rey and Rose (now that would be truly groundbreaking), but for now it's in the same basket with Finn's stormtrooper rebellion, for me. Would be great if it happened, but so far there's been zero build-up in the movies themselves.

[snufkin]

@Saracene Yeah I think unfortunately we can only best guess at Greg Grunberg sucking up valuable oxygen from the story (God, why couldn't Kylo have blown him up with the Silencer when he took out the Resistance hanger and Poe's ship?) because JJ handed him a reoccurring character role.

[californiagirl]

@Saracene I recall their complaint was the dictatorship part, that it turned into a good v. evil battle because Kylo went all supreme leader. And even we here have issues with how the third act of TLJ was handled, like if something was changed in those final rewrites just before shooting to make Mark or the studio or somebody happy. Most of the nuance flew over people's heads regarding Rey, Kylo, and Luke.

But it's why I'm not into Benperor, or that he will be competent at his job. It would really fly in the face of his arc and the fact he made a big mistake (sad puppy-dog face at the end), and also all of SW's themes and political standings of sorts.

I do think Reylo on the Run, as I think of it, could happen in IX when both sides turn against them, it just wouldn't have made sense in TLJ.

[Saracene]

@californiagirl But surely taking over the FO and destroying the Resistance was always part of Kylo's plan? How else was Kylo going to rule the galaxy together with Rey, just two of them with their laser swords and no financial backing or military power? I don't get what people think were they going to realistically achieve if it was just them two going rogue. Sure you can build up your base, but going by Palpatine and Snoke that takes years. Meanwhile, here's a powerful military organisation that's already taken over the galaxy and is now up for grabs because the leader is dead. And the Resistance will always be against absolute rulers, so it makes sense to eliminate them.

[Chris24601]

@Saracene
Honestly, I’m not sure Kylo went into the Throne Room scene expecting he’d be killing his master. I think he expected some mind probing to learn Luke’s location, but my hunch is that he expected that afterwards Rey would remain as his “guest” and eventually agree to become his student since he had no reason to doubt his vision that she would turn and stand beside him.

It was only when faced with killing Rey (thereby making his vision of something resembling happiness a lie) that Ben came to realization that the only way for his vision to come true was to kill Snoke. Only once that decision to save Rey had been made did Ben start to think beyond the immediate moment and the only path to both get what he wanted and get the girl was to seize the throne and have her rule beside him. He didn’t even envision that Rey would even make it a choice between those. He just figured if he kept working on her in that moment she’d turn, just as his vision showed... right up until she tried to pull the Skywalker lightsaber to her.

Basically, I think he was making it all up on the spur of the moment once it became clear that Snoke’s demand of him to kill Rey made it all go sideways from his vision. I think if he’d actually went into the Throne Room with an actual plan to use Rey as a distraction to murder Snoke and seize the throne, then he’d probably have felt some guilt at putting her in deliberate danger for his own advantage and been less certain she would immediately turn to his side... thus I think he’d be more likely to cave on sparing the unarmed Resistance transports (they could just as easily blockade Crait and wait them out) to prove to her that he hadn’t just been using her to get a shot at Snoke.

Instead, Kylo seemed to think that choosing Rey over Snoke was proof enough of his selfless intentions in her regard; that she, in essence, owed him for all the chaos he’d just inflicted upon the First Order to spare her. He was so busy trying to work through “how do we have a future within the First Order” to consider Rey’s own conflicted loyalties between Ben and the Resistance... something I think he’d have been able to foresee if he’d gone into the Throne Room scene with his loyalties already firmly decided.

Which not only contextualizes his meltdown in TLJ, but also I think would suggest that his rule in IX will be less implementing a long term plan of his for the galaxy and more just trying to keep his head above water and one step ahead of the jackels in First Order who want the top spot for themselves. In other words, his rule is probably going to be a chaotic hot mess that is too busy reacting to things to implement Snoke’s original plans for a organized crackdown on society.

The idea of Kylo as well-intentioned, but out of his depth as ruler of the galaxy is also something that lends itself better to a sympathetic portrayal; we’ve all bitten off more than we chew at some point in our lives and struggled to pull through it.

[Saracene]

@Chris24601 Oh I agree that Kylo tends to react to what's in front of him in the moment and probably didn't walk into the Throne Room with a concrete plan. But once they defeated the guards and his eyes tellingly lingered on Snoke's empty throne and it turned into "you and me ruling the galaxy babe", taking over the FO was part of the package. I was more responding to the notion that Kylo only decided to become the Supreme Leader after Rey left him, and that there was somehow an option where he envisioned Rey and himself becoming the rulers of the galaxy all on their own.

[AhsokaTano]

@snufkin
Talking of snap Wexley ( Greg Grunberg) taking up oxygen- he recently tweeted this when someone said his daughter was turning to dark side :

[californiagirl]

I think would suggest that his rule in IX will be less implementing a long term plan of his for the galaxy and more just trying to keep his head above water and one step ahead of the jackels in First Order who want the top spot for themselves. In other words, his rule is probably going to be a chaotic hot mess that is too busy reacting to things to implement Snoke’s original plans for a organized crackdown on society.

The idea of Kylo as well-intentioned, but out of his depth as ruler of the galaxy is also something that lends itself better to a sympathetic portrayal; we’ve all bitten off more than we chew at some point in our lives and struggled to pull through it.

@Chris24601

All this. He's already made an embarrassing disaster on Crait after being supreme leader for all of an hour. And he's alone and lost everything and is miserable. It would be weird if he ended up being this decent leader.

[snufkin]

@AhsokaTano He literally would be yet another Uber driver in LA telling his fares about his auditions if it wasn’t for being JJ’s friend in kindergarten who was eating the paste. The real life Ralph Wiggum. I will forever loathe him for getting inserted into Felicity as Ben’s “wacky” roommate who did nothing to merit a FT role. I’m just sorry that he didn’t get killed by Kylo when he blew up Poe’s ship. Also pity poor Oscar Isaac, training at Julliard, worked with the Coen Brothers,played Hamlet and this guy is your scene partner

[Cowgirlsamurai]

Didn’t Rian Johnson say that Kylo planned to kill Snoke from the moment he touched Rey’s hand? Like he wasn’t sure WHEN or HOW he’d do it, or what would happen afterward, but that he did plan to kill him prior to the throne room?

Edit: Here’s the quote from Rian. It actually doesn’t say when Kylo made up his mind. Just prior to throne room.

“In my mind, he walks in there knowing basically that he is going to betray Snoke but he doesn’t know yet exactly what the mechanism is and what his opportunity

My favorite crack theory for TLJ was that Rey and Kylo had gone rogue together and were missing at the end of the film. What a cliffhanger that would’ve been.

[snufkin]

@Cowgirlsamurai The quote about how when she arrives and they’re in the elevator he’s decided but doesn’t know how he can pull it off. The vision of a future together likely did tip him over the edge when it’s clear that Han’s warning is at the forefront of his mind. He was groomed and trained to take out his equal in the Light because they’re a threat to Snoke and the FO. Except that turned out to be Rey and he’s not willing to sacrifice her because of how he feels about her and Han’s warning is about what will happen if he chooses to be loyal to Snoke over protecting her.

[YeeRees]

I think would suggest that his rule in IX will be less implementing a long term plan of his for the galaxy and more just trying to keep his head above water and one step ahead of the jackels in First Order who want the top spot for themselves. In other words, his rule is probably going to be a chaotic hot mess that is too busy reacting to things to implement Snoke’s original plans for a organized crackdown on society.

The idea of Kylo as well-intentioned, but out of his depth as ruler of the galaxy is also something that lends itself better to a sympathetic portrayal; we’ve all bitten off more than we chew at some point in our lives and struggled to pull through it.

@Chris24601

All this. He's already made an embarrassing disaster on Crait after being supreme leader for all of an hour. And he's alone and lost everything and is miserable. It would be weird if he ended up being this decent leader.

@californiagirl

Totally agree.

Benperor doesn’t make sense to me because the First Order are a bunch of cutthroats and the whole thing was built on the spoils of crime syndicates, slavers, and the remnants of the Empire’s true believers. For Kylo/Ben to be an effective leader of the First Order, he’d have to be totally ruthless. He doesn’t appear to have any allies in the FO, unless the Knights of Ren are around and are completely loyal to him. If not, it’s Kylo versus the rest of them. Hux might not have the respect of the whole FO either, but he’s got more allies and support among the ranks than Kylo. He might be strong with the force but we don’t know what technology Hux has up his sleeve. It says in the visual dictionary that Hux has been overseeing the FO’s new technological developments. If he doesn’t at least attempt a coup against Kylo, I’ll be very surprised.

[AhsokaTano]

Hey all , so it’s been about two weeks since I last saw/listened to a crack you tube video and decided to see what Mike Zeroh was up to ( lol! Yeah I know !) . He claims he’s seen concept art and that there is leaked concept art of Rey losing an arm ( from elbow down so not entire arm), Kylo carrying Rey bridal style to medical bay , sitting by her whilst she gets a new arm fitted . He does say it’s “ very reylo “ so it must be more suggestive ?( unless reylo is meaning any scene with kylo and rey now lol!).Now he does say just because it’s concept art doesn’t mean it will be in the film but he speculates ( notice this is speculation lol on his part )this happens when ( and it’s a big if on our side because we don’t know for sure ) they have massive fight , that Kylo or someone else does it to stop the fight . Anyway here it is :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNY-dSuK-Jo

It’s on YouTube anyway as his latest video .lol!
The skywalker special of losing a limb just won’t go away . I remember we had the same thing for TLJ - Rey and kylo fight , kylo cuts off Rey’s arm/hand etc

[ISeeAnIsland]

Hey all , so it’s been about two weeks since I last saw/listened to a crack you tube video and decided to see what Mike Zeroh was up to ( lol! Yeah I know !) . He claims he’s seen concept art and that there is leaked concept art of Rey losing an arm ( from elbow down so not entire arm), Kylo carrying Rey bridal style to medical bay , sitting by her whilst she gets a new arm fitted . He does say it’s “ very reylo “ so it must be more suggestive ?( unless reylo is meaning any scene with kylo and rey now lol!).Now he does say just because it’s concept art doesn’t mean it will be in the film but he speculates ( notice this is speculation lol on his part )this happens when ( and it’s a big if on our side because we don’t know for sure ) they have massive fight , that Kylo or someone else does it to stop the fight . Anyway here it is :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oNY-dSuK-Jo

It’s on YouTube anyway as his latest video .lol!
The skywalker special of losing a limb just won’t go away . I remember we had the same thing for TLJ - Rey and kylo fight , kylo cuts off Rey’s arm/hand etc

@AhsokaTano

Gawd, during the Ireland shoot, we even had a "rumor" of someone seeing Daisy walking around the set (from a distance) with a green sleeve on her arm.

[giaciak2]

But I hope nothing is cut to either one. It may be that he cares because she is hurt ... but lose an arm ... he will have to console her a lot ...

[Chris24601]

Losing an arm feels way too much like something the fanboys feel has to happen because they still hold out hope that Rey is a Skywalker and thus it'll rhyme when she loses a hand/arm too.

A *part* of me almost wants Rey to lose the arm, because it would so blow up all the idiot "Rey is an unbeatable Mary Sue because feminist propaganda" agitprop and because I am 100% certain that it wouldn't be Kylo doing the deed (even when she's grabbing for the saber in the throne room to try and strike him down he's only trying to keep the saber from her, not striking at her... its a line the storytellers have been absolutely rigid about not crossing).

Rather if it were to happen at all, it would almost certainly be another baddie who would maim Rey and then Ben sweeps in at the last moment to save Rey's life. Saving Rey, likely by killing someone from his own side (even better if its someone he trusted like a Knight of Ren who fled Luke's academy with him) is one of the more likely means of using "show, don't tell" to sell Ben's redemption to the audience; particularly if it costs him dearly in some other way (maybe by saving her he knows the First Order will turn on him and does it anyway).

And yeah, another bridal carry and intimate moments as her arm is being replaced could be quite powerful (ex. a repeat of the hand touch scene only with Rey's new mechanical hand and perhaps happy tears because despite the loss of the hand she still feels Ben through the Force) and given the number of people who just do not get that Star Wars is not a story of "Good destroys Evil" but "Good REDEEMS Evil" I think the romantic and redemptive aspects of the story need to be hammered with as little subtlety as possible for some people to even begin to get it.

But at the same time I also don't want Rey to lose an arm just because idiot fanboys won't get the message from anything less subtle.

I also question the timing; losing an arm is something pretty crippling, even if its cauterized by the blade. Even in previous films and what we've seen in the cartoons, getting a cybernetic replacement is not something you get done in an hour and go about your life; there's recovery time implied. That means if its going to happen it can't be an end of act two climax, because Rey would have to get her replacement arm and go right back into the final fight; completely trivializing the trauma of losing a limb. It also doesn't work during the final battle, because it means Rey gets so injured that she gets completely supplanted by Ben as the protagonist during the final battle and the prosthetic is just a fanboy nod afterthought with no weight or meaning to it either because we'll never get to see the impact this loss has on Rey within the film.

So that means it could only come early (i.e. end of Act I) so she has time to recover (and grow a relationship with Ben) during Act II, but it would also sideline at least Rey and very possibly Ben in a plotline focused largely around Rey's injury and her getting past it and that doesn't feel right either given that Ben is THE legacy of the whole Skywalker saga and his plot really needs to tie together Anakin, Luke and the Balance of the Force.

In other words... It could be amazing, but I think its practically its own movie in terms of depth of plot, and probably doesn't fit as well with what IX needs to be to the trilogy of trilogies as a whole.

[toolonelytosleep]

I really don't think that Rey will lose an arm. I agree with you @Chris24601 that it would take up too much time and leave Rey physically impaired for the rest of the movie.

I also don't think that Lucasfilm/Disney would have the guts to greatly debilitate their heroine. Yes, it would probably please the fanboys who go on and on about how Rey is a Mary Sue, but this trilogy is focused on female empowerment. Having Rey be seriously incapacitated with Ben swooping in to save her would detract from their vision of a capable female protagonist who can handle herself.

Now, that isn't to say that Rey should never experience any sort of injury. I can see Kylo coming to her aid, as well as rescuing her friends, as part of his redemption. But I don't think Rey's hand being chopped off is necessary for that.

Though, I do admit, I like the idea of Kylo bridal-carrying Rey to safety. It would be a nice juxtaposition to TFA where he carried her as part of an abduction, but this time around, it's to save her.

[LadyGaufrette]

I think Jenny Nicholson Knights of Ren Theories belong here.


It would be hilarious if none of her theories come true because she gave a wide range of possibilities.
My favorite is #4, KoR are BB1 to BB7.

#11 is dedicated to reylos and I hope Lucasfilm has the same way of thinking. Reylos are good customers, they buy extra material and make positive trends, so they should look out for us.

[roguepixie]

I didn't see this faf posted anywhere here so I thought I share it with you.

Don’t ask how I know this, I won’t tell you.



A ship that looks like Kylo Ren’s shuttle launches from a docking bay of a Star Destroyer and descends to a planet below.

The shuttle is guided into a hangar by people you might say look like ground workers at an airport.

A small man nervously adjusts his attire as the ramp opens and heavy boots descend.

It’s a cloaked and masked figure, but it’s not Kylo Ren.

The man leads the dark stranger to a “conference room”. On the way the stranger asks why progress has not been met in the system he rules. Threatens to destroy the whole system. The man pleads. They get to the conference room and the stranger removes their mask.

It’s a woman. The man seems even more terrified. As he babbles excuses, the woman softly tells him she’s here to oversee things until the supreme leader arrives. She gets comfortable.

The man loses his s*** and starts weeping. The woman reassures him his system is safe because there’s something here the supreme leader wants even over his power. The next scene is a closeup on Rey’s face.

Leaker seems pro Reylo. Asked if Kylo loves Rey & vice versa he said:

he loves her. Wait for the movie to find out if she loves him too. loves her. Wait for the movie to find out if she loves him too.

Asked to give more specifics, he gave this,

“I assure you, we are not harboring fugitives here... willingly. We will find them and we will be rid of them... but our resources are spread thin. Perhaps if...”

Anyways I'm having a blast with his trolling. And he reminds me a lot of a similar pre tlj leaker.

The rest of the thread is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/starwarsspeculation/comments/9keu1w/dont_ask_how_i_know_this_i_wont_tell_you/

[AhsokaTano]

@roguepixie
I actually like this faf ! Lol! He’s still answering questions lol! Seems to imply the knights of Ren are women and also no grysks . Whether true or not remains to be seen lol!

[rawpowah]

@roguepixie
I actually like this faf ! Lol! He’s still answering questions lol! Seems to imply the knights of Ren are women and also no grysks . Whether true or not remains to be seen lol!

@AhsokaTano

You like it? I mean, he seems to imply Kylo is not getting redeemed and we have no idea what his fate will be.

[AhsokaTano]

@rawpowah
He doesn’t go into that much detail about kylo - if he specifically says kylo doesn’t get redeemed then I missed that part - oops ! I like aspects of it - implication of knights of Ren or his guards being women ( that would wind up the fanboys big time and kind of tie into the gothic element ie Dracula with his sassy bad*** vampire brides who do his bidding !)and kylo loves rey ( no surprises there !). A lot of it is vague and hard to work out who he is replying to - much like how 4chan works . He doesn’t actually say a lot to be honest but that opening scene if true is ok. I don’t expect Ben to be soft boy Ben at least not in beginning because they have to make you believe he’s gonna be the big bad . Thing is am starting to believe that no one group is gonna get everything they want in episode 9 and i’ll be pleasantly surprised if we do . I don’t know what the long term plan is for Star Wars . We can speculate and theorise but to be honest am in it for the ride now . Yes I want Ben’s Redemption, reylo and Ben to live more than anything but am prepping myself that I might not get all three ( would be awesome if we did though ) .

Ps/ it’s faf anyhow lol!
Pps/ if that opening scene has any element of truth in it and that’s a big if ( because it’s faf) then I reckon they would put that at the beginning to make the audience think woah kylo is the big bad - everyone is scared of him - and then jj would deconstruct that and it would all come crushing down as the film went on much like he did with Kylo in TFA - when he first appeared he was like hades /a demon emerging masked with all the fire in the background but as film went on we realised Kylo was more complex. That “ opening scene “ above basically plays into “ the myth” of kylo Ren that has built up . We see behind the mask and so does rey but remember the characters in the films haven’t seen that side of kylo/Ben yet . You’ve only got to see how Poe and Finn regard Kylo ( see Poe comics ). Even if Ben does good deeds that’s gonna take time to change . Also that fear of supreme leader Kylo does remind me of the reverential fear people ( subjects ) had towards kings and Queen’s in the past ( even if the king wasn’t a despot ) because they had the power over life and death .

[vaderito]

guys, that leaker is fake. he has multiple sock accounts but here he's known as Gangsta Rapper. His leak is a troll job as is his AMA as always.

[AhsokaTano]

@vaderito
Yeah I know it’s faf lol( hence mentioning it several times in my post above ). Still it’s fun taking apart the faf and analysing it with my wish list for episode 9 lol! - As we like to do here
I didn’t know he was gangsta rapper though - lol!

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