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The Rise of Skywalker: Marketing

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Post by SanghaRen on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 7:37 am

@snufkin wrote:It will never cease to amaze me the lengths that supposed fans of the ST, which is centered around a young woman and is shouldered by a neophyte doing her first job ever and likely handling the intense scrutiny better than any of us ever could have managed at that age, will scrutinize, complain about, and criticize every single goddamn thing she does while simultaneously falling all over themselves to praise the slightest thing the male lead does. Who likely got a better contract deal than she did which includes not having to be the public face of the trilogy. If the ST world reflected our world where women can't win no matter what the f**k they do, especially if they're young and thrust into a public position, no wonder Rey goes dark. Because she likely gets the same amount of grief and sh*t talk from the galaxy in regards to her being the Last Jedi and public face of the Resistance.
@snufkin

Amen to that. I am tired of this constant nagging at every word that comes out of her mouth and was going to post about it. I have to chuckle every time someone mentions AD or HF as examples of how to answer SW questions. Shall we start counting how many they get and how many DR gets? It’s like we want to get more information but then bash on the one who’s graciously trying to promote the best she can. And then AD speaks 2 sentences and it’s all about how clever and spot-on and funny he is. You can’t have it both ways because AD will never be the one carrying the weight of promoting the ST. So how about cutting some slack to the ones doing that?

She might have said a couple of WTF things. So what? Maybe she was tired and/or in a bad mood. She is a human being. Is everyone criticizing her always saying the smartest things at all times? I’d like to see that. Most of DR’s interviews are very pleasant if you take the time to read them or watch them in their entirety. I don’t know her personally, obviously, but she sounds like a thoughtful, grounded and fun young lady. And she can rap. Respect.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 7:57 am

@nickandnora I agree with mostly everything you said, but when I suggested that she maybe wanted more hostile relationship and "no kiss" I didn't mean that it was exactly the moment she objected from the first draft. Because as you previously said, it reads more like "event".

This conversation is very confusing because we all have different interpretations on what Daisy and cast mean when they are praising JJ's openness and intuitive approach. Daisy, John and Oscar said that the script was changing as they were going forward with shooting and Daisy specified that JJ changed the end. When I suggest that Daisy's lukewarm position on romantic storyline could have played some role in changing the execution of this romance, I don't try to demonize Daisy and make her responsible of changing something that was planned. Recently I made few posts about JJ's decision to completely rewrite Rey&Finn dynamic, how it affected the story IMO and the critical point here is JJ's intuitional approach to rewriting the story, being affected by real life dynamics and by inability to strictly direct actors if they can't hit a needed note. It's not about Daisy having superpower to demand everything she wants, it's about combination of specific director who pitches scripts to inexperienced actors and the trilogy's lead who is not very enthusiastic about certain storyline.

Now, everything I previously said in this thread can be overblown, exaggerated and simply misread on what was really going on behind scenes and I think my tone and agreement with opposite opinions is an indication of this. By I stand by the arguments I originally presented, and I don't see this speculation as "it came out of nowhere": there are past examples of changes, there are current PR talk about rewriting scenes basically in the evening before shooting, and there are clearly stated opinions by trilogy's lead.

Like it was previously mentioned here, there are a lot ways in which you can execute Reylo and I totally agree with that. I'll survive with platonic spiritual closeness of two lonely souls, I might even enjoy it very much, but I will be forever salty if it didn't take more epic, straightforward and explicit form.
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Post by reylo1992 on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 8:37 am

@SanghaRen wrote:
@snufkin wrote:It will never cease to amaze me the lengths that supposed fans of the ST, which is centered around a young woman and is shouldered by a neophyte doing her first job ever and likely handling the intense scrutiny better than any of us ever could have managed at that age, will scrutinize, complain about, and criticize every single goddamn thing she does while simultaneously falling all over themselves to praise the slightest thing the male lead does. Who likely got a better contract deal than she did which includes not having to be the public face of the trilogy. If the ST world reflected our world where women can't win no matter what the f**k they do, especially if they're young and thrust into a public position, no wonder Rey goes dark. Because she likely gets the same amount of grief and sh*t talk from the galaxy in regards to her being the Last Jedi and public face of the Resistance.
@snufkin

Amen to that. I am tired of this constant nagging at every word that comes out of her mouth and was going to post about it. I have to chuckle every time someone mentions AD or HF as examples of how to answer SW questions. Shall we start counting how many they get and how many DR gets? It’s like we want to get more information but then bash on the one who’s graciously trying to promote the best she can. And then AD speaks 2 sentences and it’s all about how clever and spot-on and funny he is. You can’t have it both ways because AD will never be the one carrying the weight of promoting the ST. So how about cutting some slack to the ones doing that?

She might have said a couple of WTF things. So what? Maybe she was tired and/or in a bad mood. She is a human being. Is everyone criticizing her always saying the smartest things at all times? I’d like to see that. Most of DR’s interviews are very pleasant if you take the time to read them or watch them in their entirety. I don’t know her personally, obviously, but she sounds like a thoughtful, grounded and fun young lady. And she can rap. Respect.
@SanghaRen

I don't even understand why some fans allow themselves to critisize her for that. How can these people forget that she has a big weight on her shoulders because everybody is obssessed with Rey's identity and she must answer some WTF questions like Rey being a Mary Sue or Rey being Luke's daughter. Not to mention the incredible backlash she gets for her character although her performance is amazing in every way.

For someone who carries this responsibility, I find she handles it really well and even better than most of the crew, with a lot of smiles, humor and good comebacks. In her shoes, I wouldn't have felt able to handle it like that. I.e. she definitely handled better than J.J. the question of that journalist about the title referring only to Ben Solo because there is only one Skywalker left. While J.J. had a very obvious "Oh s***!" pause moment before finally answering "Keep on...", Daisy immediately congratulated the journalist in the nicest and most natural way possible. As for the person directly impacted by the question, he has always been mostly absent from the promo and obviously not so at ease to handle key questions. Shouldn't these men be critisized too for making mistakes or being absent if we go there?

As for what she said in that specific interview, we don't even know the entire context and the article is Chinese. But even if she meant it, so what? In the end, the fans have no power to decide how things should go and neither has she. Whatever the truth behind her lineage or her connection with Kylo is, there will be disappointed people and they'll have to accept the narrative choices for what they are. Sense of entitlement doesn't bring anything.
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 8:49 am

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@nickandnora
People have so many different ideas about how they want the conclusion to play out that it's not hard to imagine the amount of thought that had to go into crafting it. Even within the Reylo fandom I've encountered a hundred ideas of what people want out of this dynamic. Personally, I would be most pleased with a finale that highlights the power of selfless and unconditional love, not just romance. Romance is not love. I want the conclusion to make me ecstatic and hopeful and believe in human nature, and I do believe the bones of that are visible in the incomplete picture we currently have. I imagine some would even argue that my ideal conclusion isn't even explicit Reylo as I'm much more a fan of the "hope for the future" theme.

I think much of the fixation on a highly specific outcome for Rey and Ben has actually come from being repeatedly told nothing could ever happen by the anti crowd. Being talked over and called amoral and all kinds of other horrible things takes its toll. I completely understand how hurt and gaslighted Reylos have been over the past four years because I've been here since the beginning. Wanting to be right and to stick it to the nastiest part of the fandom is certainly a desire I empathize with, but I do think it has clouded the playing field in a way.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Me too. I mean, I waffle to profusely back and forth between "The should kiss onscreen!!!1!!" and "Maybe instead it should be the idea that their true, actual romance will begin right on the precipice of this film after the credits roll. Kind of like, "You have changed, and I'm seeing you in a totally different light, and I think this is going to actually be something. Probably best to give both of us time to ourselves (especially Ben, because let's face it, boy needs to learn how to be self-sufficient, independent, and happy) and revisit this thing soon. But it's going to happen." Like do everything you possibly can as a filmmaker to symbolically highlight this is going to be a physical romance and true love thing basically just right beyond our seeing of it. Add a couple of lines to bring the subtext just into text, and there you go. Yes, it might still be ambiguous enough where antis would be able to handwave it away, but as you said, that shouldn't be the measure by which we judge something successful at doing what it was supposed to do.

@special_cases wrote: I agree with mostly everything you said, but when I suggested that she maybe wanted more hostile relationship and "no kiss" I didn't mean that it was exactly the moment she objected from the first draft. Because as you previously said, it reads more like "event".
Yeah for sure, I was just considering the possibility that "Rey kisses Kylo Ren" is an "event" and framing my response the way I did in that light. However, I really don't think so regardless. Whatever else she wanted changed, if anything, I'm still not sure this is what she was referring to in this quote. If I had to guess, it still sounds like something substantially more dark and risky J.J. wanted to Rey to do, perhaps as a comparison to Kylo and she thought it might have gone too far. We have no way of knowing though, unless it's made specific what it was (and as I specified in my previous post, that would be a really, really bad idea for Daisy, depending on what it is.)

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Post by californiagirl on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 9:51 am

I don't think whatever Daisy had an issue with was Rey going too dark, I'm surprised how open and easygoing she's been about being grayer, or dark!Rey. She's seemed to enjoy the complexity given to her in this movie greatly, which I admit is not the reaction I expected of her. And are we really that sure Kylo is dark side until act 3? That's not at all what I've been getting from the marketing. That especially doesn't make sense as Rey is also gray/dark at the same time as well, especially if it's for more than a brief period.

I do think Daisy is held to a standard no one else in the cast is. Or at least, I care more about what they say on this press run than what they might or might not have said in a foreign language interview years ago before IX was fully written.

Yes, romance and love are not necessarily the same thing. Having recently watched the prequels, Anakin and Padme had a whole conversation about if Jedi are allowed to love, and the nature of that love. Romance vs. selfless compassion for the world at large. It would be redundant to end up with the Jedi in question not being able to have that romance, or without terrible repercussions, again. I've seen Reylo a bit as a way to do almost an AU, a what if, or an alternate route for the prequels to go. Like Padme was the promise of romance and a normal life, and Obi-Wan was the stand in for the Jedi and their way at large, and Anakin wasn't allowed to have both. He tried anyway, and very much that didn't go well.

Clearly the ST draws from the PT, but I'm not even sure how much JJ even likes those movies or their ending. It's not just a shipping thing, or an ST thing, but a bigger story thing. It was actually one of the elements that really sold me on the pairing. It's bigger than just these two characters, there's more at stake here.

Plus Kylo and Rey were both initially presented as being warped in their respective ways by isolation, and they're still playing into that fact in this film, despite Rey's Resistance pals. They both need more than that. So they'll end it... still alone? It just doesn't add up.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:12 am

I'm forever amused that there is some imaginary backlash Daisy Ridley as a person and as an actress is experiencing and 5 comments of annoyance every two weeks about her confusing interviews framed as misogyny and inability to see her as poor victim of studio's exploitation.

Daisy Ridley is universally adored and beloved by majority of fanbase and GA. Unlike Hayden Christensen, she isn't criticised in major publications about her acting, and unlike Adam Driver, she is not personally insulted by author's word gymnastics to find colourful allegories to her ugliness in every second magazine profile/feature. Unlike Kelly and Rian Johnson, who have strong hate base to the point that it's impossible to mention their name on the web without summoning Fandom Menace. Mark Hamill was absolutely roasted here during/after TLJ press tour, including by me.

So let's not spin it like Daisy Ridley, young white rich beautiful fit woman, is in some kind of ultra vulnerable position to the point that you can't express skepticism or criticism about her work. Which she is doing for five years already. I personally have enough respect for her not feel that you need to hold her hand when you're talking about her press promotion. There is also a lot selective memory here, as some posters are personally dissapointed in Driver and studio because of his absence, posters that praised Kelly's insights who is, you know, much more experienced, accepted and beloved cast member; and I previously stated that I don't find Driver's interviews particularly insightful too. Though it's undeniable that even Driver who is miserable public speaker can be more original and laconic in his thoughts than Daisy. There is reason people don't find a reason to criticize Driver's and Kelly's interviews: there is no sense of entitlement from them when they are speaking about their characters or this franchise. Ironic in the most sad way, because they are the ones who are really brutally criticized because of their looks.
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:40 am

@californiagirl wrote:Plus Kylo and Rey were both initially presented as being warped in their respective ways by isolation, and they're still playing into that fact in this film, despite Rey's Resistance pals. They both need more than that. So they'll end it... still alone? It just doesn't add up.
Currently I'm harbouring one main and very specific theory about where Ben ends up in this movie with some potential variations of how alone exactly he is at the end of it all. I personally think a balance needs to be struck between codependency (which Adam mentions) and healthy growth from being independent. Hopefully the film is able to strike it. Point being, I think there's a way to show that even though Rey might have to leave him for a time at the end of the film, she will certainly be back soon and that he's not alone (mirroring what happened with both their parents, only this time the "returning" part will be done properly). Of course that's just my suspicion and realistic hope at this point in time, but I think it makes sense based on the text itself.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 10:46 am

@nickandnora wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:Plus Kylo and Rey were both initially presented as being warped in their respective ways by isolation, and they're still playing into that fact in this film, despite Rey's Resistance pals. They both need more than that. So they'll end it... still alone? It just doesn't add up.
Currently I'm harbouring one main and very specific theory about where Ben ends up in this movie with some potential variations of how alone exactly he is at the end of it all. I personally think a balance needs to be struck between codependency (which Adam mentions) and healthy growth from being independent. Hopefully the film is able to strike it. Point being, I think there's a way to show that even though Rey might have to leave him for a time at the end of the film, she will certainly be back soon and that he's not alone (mirroring what happened with both their parents, only this time the "returning" part will be done properly). Of course that's just my suspicion and realistic hope at this point in time, but I think it makes sense based on the text itself.
@nickandnora

Are you suspecting the continuous plot will end with romantic/want more/yet need to find myself more first scene. Then, the next scene is an epilogue indicating one year later, or something like that, and Rey (because she always makes the first move lol) is then knocking on his door/ringing the doorbell? Or with the space wizard magic element - Force Bond appear, and then romantic hea?? Hmmm...Interesting (I don't feel negative towards it Smile)

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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 11:25 am

@special_cases wrote:I'm forever amused that there is some imaginary backlash Daisy Ridley as a person and as an actress is experiencing and 5 comments of annoyance every two weeks about her confusing interviews framed as misogyny and inability to see her as poor victim of studio's exploitation.

Daisy Ridley is universally adored and beloved by majority of fanbase and GA. Unlike Hayden Christensen, she isn't criticised in major publications about her acting, and unlike Adam Driver, she is not personally insulted by author's word gymnastics to find colourful allegories to her ugliness in every second magazine profile/feature.Unlike Kelly and Rian Johnson, who have strong hate base to the point that it's impossible to mention their name on the web without summoning Fandom Menace. Mark Hamill was absolutely roasted here during/after TLJ press tour, including by me.

So let's not spin it like Daisy Ridley, young white rich beautiful fit woman, is in some kind of ultra vulnerable position to the point that you can't express skepticism or criticism about her work. Which she is doing for five years already. I personally have enough respect for her not feel that you need to hold her hand when you're talking about her press promotion. There is also a lot selective memory here, as some posters are personally dissapointed in Driver and studio because of his absence, posters that praised Kelly's insights who is, you know, much more experienced, accepted and beloved cast member; and I previously stated that I don't find Driver's interviews particularly insightful too. Though it's undeniable that even Driver who is miserable public speaker can be more original and laconic in his thoughts than Daisy. There is reason people don't find a reason to criticize Driver's and Kelly's interviews: there is no sense of entitlement from them when they are speaking about their characters or this franchise. Ironic in the most sad way, because they are the ones who are really brutally criticized because of their looks.
@special_cases

Ooof, the amount of times I’ve read interviews with him/articles about him where the writer had to insert inventive new ways of describing his looks but just comes off as really offensive... talk about damning with faint praise. It’s gross and it’s really overdone by now.
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Post by ZioRen on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 11:40 am

Criticism of Adam vs Daisy in Reylo fandom at large (at large, not here) is different for one main reason only: Adam has always been neutral to positive about Reylo, and Daisy is mostly neutral to negative (seeming) in her interviews. Adam says nothing controversial, so of course there's no controversy about his words. What he says generally appeals to Reylos, so he gets praised. Meanwhile Daisy, arguments about her interpretation aside, hits on big sore spots within this fandom with the use of the word "toxic" alone. Does it get overblown at times? Yes, yes it does. But it's not a mystery or automatically a hint at something more insidious about gender. It actually seems quite simple, if not a bit childish in motivation in some fans, to me.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 12:12 pm

Poor Hayden, I hope he appears in TROS for numerous reasons, but one of them is for Hayden himself. Even a brief appearance could work wonders for his reputation. Kind of how Yoda in TLJ was so well received, despite people's strong negative reaction to him in the prequels.

I get the idea of maybe needing to be apart for a little, maybe an epilogue could help? I've been really into the idea of an epilogue since TLJ came out, it would make more narrative sense than in HP.

Daisy may not be the greatest interviewee ever, but I'm also not imagining the panic and despair that arise in certain corners in response to 85% of her comments, even if she isn't saying anything controversial. It doesn't help that she gets asked a lot of dumb questions as well, it's kind of painful to watch, and has been since the beginning. She didn't get hate anywhere near as bad as Hayden, Ahmed Best, Kelly, or Rian, and rarely gets her appearance mocked, but do we forget she left social media for a reason? People were bad to her too. And she's said she has no intention of coming back. Hope the same doesn't happen to Naomi. *fingers crossed*
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Post by Atenais on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 12:19 pm

Another image from TROS:

The Rise of Skywalker: Marketing - Page 7 Star_w24

HD version here.

Source: empireonline
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Post by reylo1992 on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 12:31 pm

@special_cases wrote:I'm forever amused that there is some imaginary backlash Daisy Ridley as a person and as an actress is experiencing and 5 comments of annoyance every two weeks about her confusing interviews framed as misogyny and inability to see her as poor victim of studio's exploitation.

Daisy Ridley is universally adored and beloved by majority of fanbase and GA. Unlike Hayden Christensen, she isn't criticised in major publications about her acting, and unlike Adam Driver, she is not personally insulted by author's word gymnastics to find colourful allegories to her ugliness in every second magazine profile/feature. Unlike Kelly and Rian Johnson, who have strong hate base to the point that it's impossible to mention their name on the web without summoning Fandom Menace. Mark Hamill was absolutely roasted here during/after TLJ press tour, including by me.

So let's not spin it like Daisy Ridley, young white rich beautiful fit woman, is in some kind of ultra vulnerable position to the point that you can't express skepticism or criticism about her work. Which she is doing for five years already. I personally have enough respect for her not feel that you need to hold her hand when you're talking about her press promotion. There is also a lot selective memory here, as some posters are personally dissapointed in Driver and studio because of his absence, posters that praised Kelly's insights who is, you know, much more experienced, accepted and beloved cast member; and I previously stated that I don't find Driver's interviews particularly insightful too. Though it's undeniable that even Driver who is miserable public speaker can be more original and laconic in his thoughts than Daisy. There is reason people don't find a reason to criticize Driver's and Kelly's interviews: there is no sense of entitlement from them when they are speaking about their characters or this franchise. Ironic in the most sad way, because they are the ones who are really brutally criticized because of their looks.
@special_cases

You raise a lot of good points. I feel through that there are major differences between how critics/fans perceive Daisy as an actress; how critics perceive Rey as a character and how the fanbase perceive Rey as a character . I think that there is a wide approval in the fandom that there is nothing to reproach to Daisy regarding her acting because there is no scene where that doesn't feel right. So I don't think that there are a lot of people who question her abilities as an actress, she shows real social abilities in interviews and she doesn't suffer any major prejudice other than mysoginy maybe. What I remember from critics back to 2015 is that they were generally satisfied both with Rey as a character and her portrayal by Daisy. She was rather praised for her natural acting and they saw this female lead as an empowering role model for kids.

However, I feel that the fandom is much more divided regarding the perception of Rey as a character. When I watch videos on you tube or go on twitter, I see so many comments about Rey being a poorly written character, being a Mary Sue with no interesting developement, etc... I think that the core of the concerns is what the Lucasfilm has in store with that character, how they plan to insert this new character in a 40 years old story and how they're gonna use her to make Star Wars evolve. So I think Rey gets backlashed because she is at the core of this battle between people who understandably want Star Wars to use the same old ingredients and those who want to change things. I definitely agree that there are old school fanboys who hate her simply because they can't stand a female lead and even less the idea that this female ain't a Skywalker by blood. However, the concern around her character development is deeper than that.

Even I as a female viewer who ain't a old and huge Star Wars fan have some concern about what Lucasfilm is up with that character and I can relate to why some people aren't completely confortable with what might be  the intentions of Lucasfilm for her arc. IMO, Rey raises concern in the fandom because she is made the center of the story while most fans perceive now that she is definitely not the bearer of the Skywalker legagy. She also raises concerns because people can't wrap their brain around why a non Skywalker would display unequivalent Force abilities so easily without any training while overcoming without no major difficulty any temptation to the dark side. She also raises concern because all these displays of unequivalent qualities are perceived like a female non Skywalker is made the worthy Chosen One that Anakin wasn't while the only male Skywalker descendant is repeatedly made a fun of him. On top of that, TLJ was probably perceived as a provocation to fan theories, basically making both male Skywalker failures: Luke Skywalker a failed Jedi and Kylo a child in a mask.

Generally, I think her character raises concern because there is fear that the political context holds too much weight in the balance and that Rey is a political tool to push an agenda. As much as I am for displating female empowerment, why this dichotomy in TLJ between male main characters generally portrayed as unreliable, coward and reckless (Luke refusing to join the fight; Finn trying to run away; Poe failing his mission; DJ being a traitor; Snoke being the embodiment of evil and Kylo keeping going down; etc...) while implying that female main characters are reliable, courageous and wise ( Rose preaching Finn for running away; Paige sacrifying herself; Leia preaching Poe for being reckless; Holdo sacrifying herself; Rey preaching Luke for attempting murder; Rey going after Ben to save him from Snoke)? There are certainly people who are truly old school and overtly sexist but Lucasfilm also gives space for concern that to them it's more important to make a powerful female lead the center of this franchise in the end than ensuring the coherence of a story that has run for over 40 years. I believe that's the profound point of discordance between Lucasfilm and the fandom. Even my bro who overtly critisizes old school sexist people in general and doesn't consider himself a Star Wars fen told me he was disturbed by the unbalance between an untrained nobody like Rey being baffingly flawless and a trained warrior like Kylo being ridiculously flawed in TFA . He even laughed in embarassment while reminiscing Kylo's emo behavior during the confrontation with Luke in TLJ. So I guess that Daisy gets more impacted by criticism on her character and her overtly feminist view than a bad acting or mistakes in interview. That doesn't justify the attacks through.
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:04 pm

@californiagirl wrote:

I get the idea of maybe needing to be apart for a little, maybe an epilogue could help? I've been really into the idea of an epilogue since TLJ came out, it would make more narrative sense than in HP.
@californiagirl

I remember that way back when after TLJ came out I speculated that there could be an epilogue that shows a descendant that is clearly coded as Rey and Ben's child as an adult, after both of them have passed away (I know, if it's not overt, people will argue it but whatever). I think that might still be possible but IF that's the case I suspect it might be post-credits. I'm currently speculating within the confines of the leaks we have and the reason I think a scene like this might work where I just indicated is because I highly suspect no one would know about it and it would probably be something filmed in secret at Bad Robot (it's not even like they'd need to include Daisy or Adam, or indeed even tell them). The way J.J. keeps harping on this idea that THIS IS AN ENDING, I ENDED THIS MOVIE, NO FURTHER MOVIES ABOUT THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE MADE, I think this would fit. It provides an absolute marker that can't be touched in the future ("Ben and Rey had a child and died together and there's nothing you can do to change that canon") but still allows the viewer to fill in the blanks themselves to their liking.


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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:09 pm

@reylo1992 Yeah, I totally agree with you that there is undeserved backlash regarding Rey as a character. Which doesn't reflect on Daisy, mostly because she is extremely cute both on the screen and in real life and because she is hot so a lot of fanboys are not invested to roast here like they are doing with Kelly who doesn't present herself with more typical for Hollywood look.

There was backlash regarding Anakin's character in AoTC as western audience wasn't ready to see legendary Vader as emotional teen who is allowed to cry and scream because he is in emotional pain, and as sentimental fool in love who is obviously has no idea how to woo lady he loves or impress and court her properly. Fanboys who have been dreaming about cold blooded killer machine Vader for decades were in pure rage for destroying their dreams.

Anakin's transformation was tightly tied with loss of external and internal feminine part of himself and he wasn't portrayed as "strongz man", but as complicated emotional person with a lot of struggles. So the nature of these backlashes is not that different: masculine energy and essence is perceived with respect, acceptance and proclaimed "cool" and feminine is accepted only in strictly fixed roles and archetypes and prohibited in heroic and epic characters. That's why female heroes are so often resemble more stereotypical male heroes and every tiny shift to feminine archetypes is perceived as "weaknesses" and "implies" sexism.

Thanks God, Rey isn't victim of this when it comes to creators' intentions but we will see how then conclude her emotional arc. I wouldn't put it behind JJ to close her arc as "she is so grown up and strong now that she is not afraid to be alone, she doesn't need to depend emotionally on anybody".

Excuse me my cynicism, but I can see JJ totally doing it and everybody will be estatic about it because it's strong message for short term legacy of this story. In long term it will feel flat and will have zero impact on future culture but JJ isn't famous for such vision. Unlike George who was totally ahead of time with Anakin.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:20 pm

@special_cases wrote:I'm forever amused that there is some imaginary backlash Daisy Ridley as a person and as an actress is experiencing and 5 comments of annoyance every two weeks about her confusing interviews framed as misogyny and inability to see her as poor victim of studio's exploitation.

Daisy Ridley is universally adored and beloved by majority of fanbase and GA. Unlike Hayden Christensen, she isn't criticised in major publications about her acting, and unlike Adam Driver, she is not personally insulted by author's word gymnastics to find colourful allegories to her ugliness in every second magazine profile/feature. Unlike Kelly and Rian Johnson, who have strong hate base to the point that it's impossible to mention their name on the web without summoning Fandom Menace. Mark Hamill was absolutely roasted here during/after TLJ press tour, including by me.

So let's not spin it like Daisy Ridley, young white rich beautiful fit woman, is in some kind of ultra vulnerable position to the point that you can't express skepticism or criticism about her work. Which she is doing for five years already. I personally have enough respect for her not feel that you need to hold her hand when you're talking about her press promotion. There is also a lot selective memory here, as some posters are personally dissapointed in Driver and studio because of his absence, posters that praised Kelly's insights who is, you know, much more experienced, accepted and beloved cast member; and I previously stated that I don't find Driver's interviews particularly insightful too. Though it's undeniable that even Driver who is miserable public speaker can be more original and laconic in his thoughts than Daisy. There is reason people don't find a reason to criticize Driver's and Kelly's interviews: there is no sense of entitlement from them when they are speaking about their characters or this franchise. Ironic in the most sad way, because they are the ones who are really brutally criticized because of their looks.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:24 pm

Yeah, I really doubt Daisy confirming "the belonging you seek is ahead" as the core of Rey's story arc is Daisy saying that her arc is about becoming... emotionally independent? In a story about found family and the power of friendship and love and connection in a galaxy that is all about how the universe is bound together by magic? Please. The emphasis in SW has always been on relationships and family and people finding a home with each other. This is a hallmark of storytelling for a young audience, and yes, if Mandalorian proved anything to me it's that SW is not abandoning that market and KK knows very well what her brand is all about.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:39 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig I agree that this doesn't make any sense storywise but there is reason I called it cynical opinion. There are some things in SW that never made sense to me storywise. I mean, Rey could find her belonging among her friends, after she balanced herself and faced her dark side struggles, and being spiritual heir of heroic Skywalkers, blah-blah-blah.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:40 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:

I get the idea of maybe needing to be apart for a little, maybe an epilogue could help? I've been really into the idea of an epilogue since TLJ came out, it would make more narrative sense than in HP.
@californiagirl

I remember that way back when after TLJ came out I speculated that there could be an epilogue that shows a descendant that is clearly coded as Rey and Ben's child as an adult, after both of them have passed away (I know, if it's not overt, people will argue it but whatever). I think that might still be possible but IF that's the case I suspect it might be post-credits. I'm currently speculating within the confines of the leaks we have and the reason I think a scene like this might work where I just indicated is because I highly suspect no one would know about it and it would probably be something filmed in secret at Bad Robot (it's not even like they'd need to include Daisy or Adam, or indeed even tell them). The way J.J. keeps harping on this idea that THIS IS AN ENDING, I ENDED THIS MOVIE, NO FURTHER MOVIES ABOUT THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE MADE, I think this would fit. It provides an absolute marker that can't be touched in the future ("Ben and Rey had a child and died together and there's nothing you can do to change that canon") but still allows the viewer to fill in the blanks themselves to their liking.

@nickandnora

Oh my God, we found Matt Smith!

(Sorry for doubleposting)
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Post by Atenais on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 1:49 pm

@reylo1992 @special_cases Both of you are so insightful with your comments, it's a pleasure to read you.

@special_cases wrote:There was backlash regarding Anakin's character in AoTC as western audience wasn't ready to see legendary Vader as emotional teen who is allowed to cry and scream because he is in emotional pain, and as sentimental fool in love who is obviously has no idea how to woo lady he loves or impress and court her properly. Fanboys who have been dreaming about cold blooded killer machine Vader for decades were in pure rage for destroying their dreams.
@special_cases

Yes, it's very interesting to see how men perceive themselves, how they project their maleness. I say that, because we see a lot of femicide around of the world, men shooting people because a woman said no, etc., so we see how the way their handle their feelings can be very complex and this makes Anakin even more real. But men don't accept to be portrayed this way.

About Daisy, I don't feel as we're criticizing her. But we feel frustrated with the way she talks about Reylo or the way it seems she perceives Reylo. In a Reylo forum I believe we could talk about it without being called "sexist". lol

@nickandnora wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:

I get the idea of maybe needing to be apart for a little, maybe an epilogue could help? I've been really into the idea of an epilogue since TLJ came out, it would make more narrative sense than in HP.
@californiagirl

I remember that way back when after TLJ came out I speculated that there could be an epilogue that shows a descendant that is clearly coded as Rey and Ben's child as an adult, after both of them have passed away (I know, if it's not overt, people will argue it but whatever). I think that might still be possible but IF that's the case I suspect it might be post-credits. I'm currently speculating within the confines of the leaks we have and the reason I think a scene like this might work where I just indicated is because I highly suspect no one would know about it and it would probably be something filmed in secret at Bad Robot (it's not even like they'd need to include Daisy or Adam, or indeed even tell them). The way J.J. keeps harping on this idea that THIS IS AN ENDING, I ENDED THIS MOVIE, NO FURTHER MOVIES ABOUT THESE PEOPLE NEED TO BE MADE, I think this would fit. It provides an absolute marker that can't be touched in the future ("Ben and Rey had a child and died together and there's nothing you can do to change that canon") but still allows the viewer to fill in the blanks themselves to their liking.

@nickandnora

It's funny how we think differently. For me, as long as we have a Skywalker descendent, the story needs to be told. When I heard about the *THE END* for the first time I thought, "oh, no! No baby Reylo".
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Post by Saracene on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 2:30 pm

@special_cases wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig I agree that this doesn't make any sense storywise but there is reason I called it cynical opinion. There are some things in SW that never made sense to me storywise. I mean, Rey could find her belonging among her friends, after she balanced herself and faced her dark side struggles, and being spiritual heir of heroic Skywalkers, blah-blah-blah.
@special_cases

I think that TLJ kinda re-framed Rey’s search for belonging; in TFA she’s merely waiting for her parents and that’s pretty much her entire scope, but in TLJ it’s put like she wants to find her place “in all of this”, which IMO sounds more like wanting to find a purpose or something along these lines. JJ recently described her as a character who struggles with her place in the world. Finding a place in the world doesn’t always have to be about finding relationships and connections, though I’m in full agreement that this is what a girl like Rey would realistically care about the most... but then at this point she already has friends and people who care about her? I also really really doubt that, in the current climate, “finding belonging with a man” is the sort of ending they’d do for Rey. (As an aside, I’m really curious how Disney is going to “modernise” Little Mermaid; you can bet Ariel’s decisions are totally not going to be about a man).
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Post by special_cases on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 2:41 pm

Someone is claiming that this is leaked cover of December issue. Does anybody know from where it's originated?

The Rise of Skywalker: Marketing - Page 7 Img_2020
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 2:45 pm

You cynical Reylos won. (not in the sense I agree), yet there seems to be this determination to prepare for the worst.

I'm tired in trying to positively push back because there is equal push back (or more).

Truthfully, I don't understand it as a philosophy, yet if it works for you, wonderful. Doesn't work for me as a life code.

Probably still lurk, and post in the SW Resistance and Mandalorian threads, yet as for TRoS...pfft...lol I'll converse about it again when the actual spoiler reviews are revealed to speak further about it because now, we're debating about if an invisible friend exists or not.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 2:47 pm

@special_cases wrote:Someone is claiming that this is leaked cover of December issue. Does anybody know from where it's originated?

The Rise of Skywalker: Marketing - Page 7 Img_2020
@special_cases

OMFG! I hope it's real. His collar seems photoshoped. But RS already posted 2 pics of Adam as Kylo, so makes sense.


Last edited by Atenais on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 4:58 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 24 Nov 2019, 3:10 pm

Rey does have friends, but they've been pretty clear across both interviews and trailers that this isn't enough and she's stiff adrift and lonely on some level. However, I don't think it's an either-or situation. She can have both her Resistance BFG and Kylo/Ben. This wasn't allowed to happen in the prequels because it was designed as a tragedy, and that's clearly what's not going on here. I think the tension between them could make an interesting source of drama. Daisy did mention the friendships between her and Finn/Poe are realistic ones, not all sunshine and rainbows. Which leads to the question of what they would disagree on so much at some point in the story.

You know what Daisy is really good at talking about? Rey. Her own character, at least not involving Kylo (and the fact she never understood the parentage questions I find endearing). What her headspace is, where she's at, her inner life, her struggles and turmoil, what her journey is about at least vaguely. She can't say much, but she does so pretty easily. At D23 especially, as well as the print and other in-person interviews since then, she's not stumbling or confused, seems very confident and comfortable in what she's saying. Contrast that to Celebration, when almost no one except Horowitz even bothered to ask her about Rey herself. Kelly doesn't get asked about Rose much either.
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