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Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors

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Post by Gemini on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:28 am

@Atenais wrote:
@OrionStars wrote:Ok, I forgot to mention this but in that Jedi Fallen Order game, Vader literally threw Cere down the pit, but she came back later to aid Cal when he was nearly lost against Vader. It seems like "falling down the pit" has become SW's traditional twist. Let's pray that Kylo can come back after he gets yeeted down the pit in TROS like Cere too.
@OrionStars

In other words, maybe we should cheer for him to be thrown down the pit. Looks like the most certain way that a character will be back. XD
@Atenais

So it's like this then based on SW shaft throwing:

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 Screen64

@spacebaby45678

So he still helped with the script or JJ kept some of the script?
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:38 am

@gemini

Looks like parts of the script were kept.. same went for Michael Arndt... when we look back the major story beats where put down by Arndt
So God only knows... how much of CT's beats where kept..

interesting article from variety...

https://variety.com/2019/film/columns/fear-is-the-force-thats-driving-star-wars-1203391122/
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Post by nickandnora on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:48 am

The credit for Trevorrow means nothing other than caution to prevent a lawsuit. If they literally kept anything (like, ANY idea) then Trevorrow can argue they took ideas without crediting them (especially if there's no paper trail from where that idea originally came from). Jason Ward has already said that the Red Sith troopers were a part of Trevorrow's script. Really, that alone is enough.

He didn't help J.J. with squat. This is legalese and nothing more.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 10:17 am

[quote="spacebaby45678"]
@Gemini wrote:
@spacebaby45678
That is fricking creepy, if so. The attire does look like KoR. The face is like a sewn on mask. Weird.
@Gemini
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:@spacebaby45678
Huh, I guess it could be. It does potentially match the Knight with the long mace and minimal cloak in this Vanity Fair shot with JJ. If they are undead ghoul warriors then that's 1) creepy as heck, 2) probably part of Palpatine's long game all along.
@FrolickingFizzgig
@nana7marie wrote:@spacebaby45678
@Gemini
@FrolickingFizzgig
Oh, I’d love it - it’d definitely add to the creep factor and that’d be something newish in the franchise. And as @SW_Heroine_Journey has said, Ridley called TRoS ‘scary’ among other things, so that’d fit.
@nana7marie

Not sure how I feel about this.. I hate scary movies.. they have never been my thing.. but after watching some of the Jedi Fallen order specifically the night-sisters portion... there seems to be a similarity to the leaks of Kylo passing giant statues and the walls seem to be similar to the ones behind the dark Rey... also.. The Nightsister empowers the Dathomir males with possession or power of some kind.. or they are like the nightsister dead zombies... they are merely minions or instruments.

concept art for Charal.. Witch of Endor
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 150?cb=20080226172319
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 B4b80d320a45e44428c887b519db14ce7885815e
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 CSk9oiLUcAAjPFn

Palpy learned all the nightsister magicks from Mama Talzin..he has most likely learned Talzin's magicks on life extension and attaching the dead soul to objects.  then Dooku & Griveious murdered them all leaving only Maul and it seems a few others now they like Merrin show up in Jedi Fallen Order.

At the end of Solo... Maul Takes Qira to Dathomir to train in magicks further...

The other thing that connects the KOR to Qira is the weapon that one of the KOR has was in Vos's lair.. also the scythewave is a Dathomir weapon from legends.
Is this what happened to Kylo... see the Rise of Kylo Ren comic book cover... If Ben wishes to be truly free... the answers might lie with the dark side. And with the Knights of Ren!STAR WARS RISE KYLO REN #2 (OF 4)

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 B10a1c7c9b91be6a5de1fce744acb0a7875f29cc
Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 Hqdefault

In Fallen Order there is a Fallen Jedi who is living with the Dathomir males and has also learned their secrets and magicks....

OMG.. there is a love story between Jedi Cal & Nightsister Merrin...

@spacebaby45678

I love the Fallen Order footage, and the building love story between Jedi Cal & Nightsister Merrin...

!! Plus, I loved how weird, and full of magick it was! I really hope TRoS is this, plus more!...

Hmmm...with the love story between Cal and Merrin. Causes me to wonder if at the end of TRoS, if Ben is a new form of Jedi and Rey will be a hybrid of Jedi and Nightsister. ???

I adore Nightsister Merrin! Why doesn't she have a Funko???!!!!! I want a Nightsister Merrin Funko! Very Happy Smile
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 10:21 am

@nickandnora wrote:The credit for Trevorrow means nothing other than caution to prevent a lawsuit. If they literally kept anything (like, ANY idea) then Trevorrow can argue they took ideas without crediting them (especially if there's no paper trail from where that idea originally came from). Jason Ward has already said that the Red Sith troopers were a part of Trevorrow's script. Really, that alone is enough.

He didn't help J.J. with squat. This is legalese and nothing more.
@nickandnora

Exactly, if he helped with more, to Screenplay status, then the WGA would have sided with him, declared that their verdict.  They did not, which indicates legalese, fine print, fast speaking voice, only. Smile Very Happy
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 10:52 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey

there is already what @gemini believes is nightsister sound design in the D23 trailer for Dark Rey... Suspect
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Post by snufkin on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 4:35 pm

@nickandnora It's definitely a legal requirement as the entire MO for the ST has been to recycle ideas/concepts developed for productions which didn't pan out. Which in this situation they only had 2 years turnaround time after Trevorrow's departure (which writing was the major issue of contention) to get another production out the door. Anything which serves the purpose of the story likely got re-purposed.

Also IRRC, Rian Johnson was sued by his former agent during the entire time TLJ was a in production because the agent claimed he set up the initial meeting with KK and then was fired shortly before Lucasfilm announced hiring him for the ST. So the entire time he's been asked about his role in IX, for multiple reasons (can't imagine Trevorrow was as pleasant a collaborator as JJ/Kasdan/Carrie likely were), he deferred and said he wasn't involved. Besides not opening himself up to further problems with the now settled case his former agent brought against him, you'd imagine he's gone out of his way to publicly state he had no hand in the story/script also to keep himself out of any legal issues around Trevorrow's departure. Mind you, he's said that he's had discussions with JJ about what TLJ potentially set up for the next chapter and as he's also said that he was party to the production process for TFA as part of his writing TLJ's script. So he was involved in the story for TRoS, just being diplomatic with what he says in public because of these type of legal issues that come up.
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Post by OrionStars on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:11 pm

@Atenais
@Gemini

I don't have the confidence to affirm that, especially with JJ's involvement. He has a bias for Rey and has tried hard to push that character since TFA, the result of his bias was pretty nasty with the general audience called Rey "Mary Sue", but it seems like both Ridley and JJ don't think it's a problem, for them Rey is just ..."stronk". Cal/Cere/Merrin defeated Vader and escaped but I've not seen anyone call them Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I guess it's all up to how they handle the situation.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:26 pm

@snufkin wrote:@nickandnora It's definitely a legal requirement as the entire MO for the ST has been to recycle ideas/concepts developed for productions which didn't pan out. Which in this situation they only had 2 years turnaround time after Trevorrow's departure (which writing was the major issue of contention) to get another production out the door. Anything which serves the purpose of the story likely got re-purposed.

Also IRRC, Rian Johnson was sued by his former agent during the entire time TLJ was a in production because the agent claimed he set up the initial meeting with KK and then was fired shortly before Lucasfilm announced hiring him for the ST. So the entire time he's been asked about his role in IX, for multiple reasons (can't imagine Trevorrow was as pleasant a collaborator as JJ/Kasdan/Carrie likely were), he deferred and said he wasn't involved. Besides not opening himself up to further problems with the now settled case his former agent brought against him, you'd imagine he's gone out of his way to publicly state he had no hand in the story/script also to keep himself out of any legal issues around Trevorrow's departure. Mind you, he's said that he's had discussions with JJ about what TLJ potentially set up for the next chapter and as he's also said that he was party to the production process for TFA as part of his writing TLJ's script. So he was involved in the story for TRoS, just being diplomatic with what he says in public because of these type of legal issues that come up.
@snufkin

Could this be one of the reasons or THE reason why he declined directing TRoS (I know he publicly dismissed the possibility, yet bts, I wonder if that = declined) because he was trying to avoid more legalities from his previous agent? I admit that I am Hollywood production naive, yet I always found it odd he did not direct IX, when CT did not work out, when to me - he would have been the obvious choice, considering he directed TLJ. I always thought there was more to the story, and I wonder if this is it.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:51 pm

@OrionStars wrote:@Atenais
@Gemini

I don't have the confidence to affirm that, especially with JJ's involvement. He has a bias for Rey and has tried hard to push that character since TFA, the result of his bias was pretty nasty with the general audience called Rey "Mary Sue", but it seems like both Ridley and JJ don't think it's a problem, for them Rey is just ..."stronk". Cal/Cere/Merrin defeated Vader and escaped but I've not seen anyone call them Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I guess it's all up to how they handle the situation.
@OrionStars
One of the major differences here is that Rey is a female heroine in a story that visually and thematically prioritizes the female gaze and presents an extremely blatant female empowerment fantasy focusing on Rey (but also on the other female characters). TFA has Maz as Rey's guide, Rey overcomes Kylo in multiple capacities including physically. TLJ cranks it up to the eleven with the highly intentional emphasis on the "women are wise" trope. Rian has freely discussed how he wrote the character arcs in trios with female characters and female values impacting and contrasting male characters (Rey to Kylo and Luke, Rose to Finn and DJ, Holdo and Leia to Poe). JJ and especially Rian were also heavy-handed in their use of feminine symbols. Ahch-To is a smorgasbord in particular. You have female alien milking, mother porgs and nests, the moon is often hanging in the background, Yonic icons galore, the Caretakers, etc.

I always see people say "Jyn got no backlash and she was a female protagonist" and, like, no. That's apples and oranges. That argument doesn't work just like this new argument about the female supporting characters in Fallen Order doesn't work. Jyn being a woman is totally irrelevant. You could make her male and the story would be exactly the same. The ST is a female-coded narrative through-and-through. I have yet to play Fallen Order but it clearly has a male protagonist and while I'm sure it has an emotional storyline, nothing about it would scream "woke" to those who subconsciously take issue with the themes they acknowledge and consider grating in the ST.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 8:59 pm

Even Arndt got screenwriting credit, though he left very early on. CT and DC are not, only story credit, which is what GL got for ESB. And even George wrote multiple drafts for that, was executive producer, was still head of LF, was otherwise still actively involved on some level. I doubt they saved as much from the Colin stuff. Even something as minor as a ship design, a line of dialogue, anything from the early version can be weaponized to sue the current creators. Better safe than sorry, no one wants one of their biggest releases of the year to get bogged down in legal fees and controversy.
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Post by OrionStars on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 9:08 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, the main protagonist of JFO was a boy but he was saved by Cere and Merrin multi times. All the girls were powerful force-sensitive women and could stand against Vader but Cal couldn't. And no one complains about that. No one thinks Cal "weak" and calls the other girls "Mary Sue" when they saved his life. (Fanboys did bemoan that Cal's appearance looked a bit feminine, but that's that). I just don't understand how it could happen. I assumed that different producers had different ways to build strong women.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sun 17 Nov 2019, 9:27 pm

@OrionStars wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, the main protagonist of JFO was a boy but he was saved by Cere and Merrin multi times. All the girls were powerful force-sensitive women and could stand against Vader but Cal couldn't. And no one complains about that. No one thinks Cal "weak" and calls the other girls "Mary Sue" when they saved his life. (Fanboys did bemoan that Cal's appearance looked a bit feminine, but that's that). I just don't understand how it could happen. I assumed that different producers had different ways to build strong women.
@OrionStars
It really has very little to do with how the writers approach writing the characters. It's not about women being strong. That isn't the problem. The stories themselves are constructed differently from the ground up. Fallen Order is not a female empowerment fantasy; the ST is. Rey is the main character and the fact that she is female is relevant to every single aspect of her narrative. There's an element of (taboo) female sexuality that is represented for the female gaze. It's not sexy Leia in a bikini for millions of men in the 80's, it's totally non-sexualized Rey getting flustered over her shirtless enemy, embarrassed over Luke milking a cow, feeling nature and the cycles of birth and death, talking about her "awakening" in the Force (and come on, we all know it means something else as well).

Sure, she's engaging in heroics, but nobody complained about that. They complained about her not training enough, about her being too strong for how long she's been able to use the Force, etc. It's honestly a very subconscious reaction that, in my opinion, has nothing to do with a character being physically capable. Physical strength is a hallmark of action and adventure blockbusters. Rey is a heroine designed more for women than men just as Kylo is a villain created very much with the female gaze in mind. Look at that Byronic leg pose in the trailer. LucasFilm knows exactly what they're doing, haha!

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 Screen_Shot_2019-11-15_at_12.51.34_AM

I will point out Rose absolutely got blasted with criticism for her heroics in... saving Finn. Because apparently his arc was done and he would have gone out in a blaze of glory had darned Rose not rescued him at the last second.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is the ST does all of this on purpose. It's intentionally provocative and it means to elicit that response from a specific crowd. It's pushing buttons intentionally. When people call it woke female propaganda that's what they mean. There's a meta aspect to all of it that totally sets people off.
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Post by Lily Snape on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 12:54 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@snufkin wrote:@nickandnora It's definitely a legal requirement as the entire MO for the ST has been to recycle ideas/concepts developed for productions which didn't pan out. Which in this situation they only had 2 years turnaround time after Trevorrow's departure (which writing was the major issue of contention) to get another production out the door. Anything which serves the purpose of the story likely got re-purposed.

Also IRRC, Rian Johnson was sued by his former agent during the entire time TLJ was a in production because the agent claimed he set up the initial meeting with KK and then was fired shortly before Lucasfilm announced hiring him for the ST. So the entire time he's been asked about his role in IX, for multiple reasons (can't imagine Trevorrow was as pleasant a collaborator as JJ/Kasdan/Carrie likely were), he deferred and said he wasn't involved. Besides not opening himself up to further problems with the now settled case his former agent brought against him, you'd imagine he's gone out of his way to publicly state he had no hand in the story/script also to keep himself out of any legal issues around Trevorrow's departure. Mind you, he's said that he's had discussions with JJ about what TLJ potentially set up for the next chapter and as he's also said that he was party to the production process for TFA as part of his writing TLJ's script. So he was involved in the story for TRoS, just being diplomatic with what he says in public because of these type of legal issues that come up.
@snufkin

Could this be one of the reasons or THE reason why he declined directing TRoS (I know he publicly dismissed the possibility, yet bts, I wonder if that = declined) because he was trying to avoid more legalities from his previous agent?  I admit that I am Hollywood production naive, yet I always found it odd he did not direct IX, when CT did not work out, when to me - he would have been the obvious choice, considering he directed TLJ.  I always thought there was more to the story, and I wonder if this is it.  
@SW_Heroine_Journey

You can look back on this forum to 2017 and find threads predicting that RJ couldn’t do it because of his potential legal issues with his agent— @snufkin —you seem to know the industry news and were probably in on that conversation.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 1:42 am

From what I’ve read, he was in a delicate position regarding IX given his former agent suing him over supposed lost wages as well as whatever was going on behind the scenes with Trevorrow and trying to get post-production and promotion for TLJ our the door. Also the entire issue of Carrie’s death, not just on the story but it seems like she’d become a friend/mentor to him.

The odd thing is you see people in venues like Twitter lamenting “JJ will screw up Reylo, I wish Rian had been in charge” and 99.99% of the time it’s somebody who blew off TFA & didn’t pay attention to something JJ/Kasdan set up in that story which Rian expanded on because he wrote it while being part of the production. Like just because you didn’t notice it doesn’t mean it’s not there.

Otherwise Rian has his trilogy (suspect that was his choice over IX), just started a production company and seems pretty happy getting to continue making his standalone genre films.
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Post by nana7marie on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 3:32 am

@OrionStars wrote:I don't have the confidence to affirm that, especially with JJ's involvement. He has a bias for Rey and has tried hard to push that character since TFA, the result of his bias was pretty nasty with the general audience called Rey "Mary Sue", but it seems like both Ridley and JJ don't think it's a problem, for them Rey is just ..."stronk". Cal/Cere/Merrin defeated Vader and escaped but I've not seen anyone call them Mary Sue/Gary Stu. I guess it's all up to how they handle the situation.
@OrionStars
Well, it’s pretty much only female characters who get labelled ‘Mary Sue’ (I wonder why... Rolling Eyes ) so I’m not surprised nobody’s calling Cal ‘Gary Stu’. And I believe it’s precisely because he’s the protagonist that those female characters got spared.

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@OrionStars wrote:@FrolickingFizzgig

Yeah, the main protagonist of JFO was a boy but he was saved by Cere and Merrin multi times. All the girls were powerful force-sensitive women and could stand against Vader but Cal couldn't. And no one complains about that. No one thinks Cal "weak" and calls the other girls "Mary Sue" when they saved his life. (Fanboys did bemoan that Cal's appearance looked a bit feminine, but that's that). I just don't understand how it could happen. I assumed that different producers had different ways to build strong women.
@OrionStars
It really has very little to do with how the writers approach writing the characters. It's not about women being strong. That isn't the problem. The stories themselves are constructed differently from the ground up. Fallen Order is not a female empowerment fantasy; the ST is. Rey is the main character and the fact that she is female is relevant to every single aspect of her narrative. There's an element of (taboo) female sexuality that is represented for the female gaze. It's not sexy Leia in a bikini for millions of men in the 80's, it's totally non-sexualized Rey getting flustered over her shirtless enemy, embarrassed over Luke milking a cow, feeling nature and the cycles of birth and death, talking about her "awakening" in the Force (and come on, we all know it means something else as well).

Sure, she's engaging in heroics, but nobody complained about that. They complained about her not training enough, about her being too strong for how long she's been able to use the Force, etc. It's honestly a very subconscious reaction that, in my opinion, has nothing to do with a character being physically capable. Physical strength is a hallmark of action and adventure blockbusters. Rey is a heroine designed more for women than men just as Kylo is a villain created very much with the female gaze in mind. Look at that Byronic leg pose in the trailer. LucasFilm knows exactly what they're doing, haha!

Episode IX: Spoilers and Rumors - Page 21 Screen_Shot_2019-11-15_at_12.51.34_AM

I will point out Rose absolutely got blasted with criticism for her heroics in... saving Finn. Because apparently his arc was done and he would have gone out in a blaze of glory had darned Rose not rescued him at the last second.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say is the ST does all of this on purpose. It's intentionally provocative and it means to elicit that response from a specific crowd. It's pushing buttons intentionally. When people call it woke female propaganda that's what they mean. There's a meta aspect to all of it that totally sets people off.
@FrolickingFizzgig
Claps  Claps  Claps
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Post by OrionStars on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 3:52 am

@FrolickingFizzgig

I understand. Somehow, I've always felt that the way JJ executed Rey's story was really off-putting and it made people think what Rey had achieved was unearned and unconvincing, so they labeled her as "Mary Sue", but the other female characters like Cere/Merrin all passed people's judgment. It's like even though people don't have any problem with empowered female characters who are stronger than the male ones, they still can't connect with the type of character like Rey. Maybe it's the consequence of how JJ removing all arduousness and struggles in order to make Rey look "cool" in his eyes.
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Post by Gemini on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 4:21 am

My views on Rey Sue have changed drastically over time.

Upon some reflection on it, I  feel that the reason some may see her as a Mary Sue is because of the lack of training onscreen. It all appears to have mainly happened off screen. It was also, possibly due to the audience having to fill in a lot of blanks when it came to her learning skills on Jakku prior to us meeting her. We only ever got the information in a book that she learned to speak Wookie for example. Lots of people wont read these things.

Someone made a great point that I read on Twitter somewhere that she is an excellent fighter with her staff because she most likely had to defend herself daily from outsider attacks since she was like 8?. She was all on her own on a sand planet full of unsavory people. She had to learn to defend herself.

Also, again its possibly due to JJ's mystery box/RJ not expanding that much on the force bond? If Kylo is somehow teaching her skills, its not explained yet and so it appears that she is just learning this on her own. Visually its all there and is explained though visual film language and character actions. However visual storytelling is not always easily picked up on and is often down to a lot of audience interpretation and so opinion on it can vary. Sometimes its just better to have a character explain it on screen.

All of the above, doesn't explain how she can instantly swim after spending her entire life on a sand planet, lift rocks without being exhausted etc. But in terms of fighting. It makes sense to me.
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 6:48 am

I'm probably in the minority when it comes to this opinion, but I don't think fanboys disliked Rey and Rose because of the way they were written. I think it comes down to physical appearance.

In male-dominated spaces for SW, I saw plenty of men insulting Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran for not looking hot enough or feminine enough. Both actresses are pretty and I'd kill to look like them, but their type of down-to-earth beauty appeals more so to women, not straight men. They're not sexualized like Leia was, nor are they dolled up like Padme. Rey and Rose wear minimal or natural-looking makeup and modest, practical clothing. Their beauty and sexuality is not played up for straight men. They're attractive women, but it's not central to their existence as characters.

Back when TLJ had come out, I remember some male fans went as far as to say they wished Rose and Paige had switched places, or that Rose had been played by Veronica Ngo. I wonder why? Rolling Eyes

Maybe I'm extremely cynical and physical appearance has nothing to do with why some men have problems with Rey/Rose's characters, but I think it does play somewhat of a part.

To be fair, I've seen something similar from female antis on Twitter and Tumblr who despise Kylo because they don't find him hot enough. They'll call Anakin their baby boy and drool over other popular villains like Loki, but Kylo isn't "worthy" in their eyes because Adam isn't a conventional pretty boy.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 7:18 am

@toolonelytosleep wrote:I'm probably in the minority when it comes to this opinion, but I don't think fanboys disliked Rey and Rose because of the way they were written. I think it comes down to physical appearance.

In male-dominated spaces for SW, I saw plenty of men insulting Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran for not looking hot enough or feminine enough. Both actresses are pretty and I'd kill to look like them, but their type of down-to-earth beauty appeals more so to women, not straight men. They're not sexualized like Leia was, nor are they dolled up like Padme. Rey and Rose wear minimal or natural-looking makeup and modest, practical clothing. Their beauty and sexuality is not played up for straight men. They're attractive women, but it's not central to their existence as characters.

Back when TLJ had come out, I remember some male fans went as far as to say they wished Rose and Paige had switched places, or that Rose had been played by Veronica Ngo. I wonder why? Rolling Eyes

Maybe I'm extremely cynical and physical appearance has nothing to do with why some men have problems with Rey/Rose's characters, but I think it does play somewhat of a part.

To be fair, I've seen something similar from female antis on Twitter and Tumblr who despise Kylo because they don't find him hot enough. They'll call Anakin their baby boy and drool over other popular villains like Loki, but Kylo isn't "worthy" in their eyes because Adam isn't a conventional pretty boy.
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I feel it's this reason, along with what @FrolickingFizzgig is indicating about the ST being a female empowerment fantasy, as to why people of both genders (patriarchy is entrenched with women, as well - sometimes, sadly, those who claim to be feminist) have a revulsion to it.
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Post by nana7marie on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 7:33 am

@toolonelytosleep Oh yes, that’s definitely part of the reason - I remember comments on forums/under articles and fan reviews written by dudebros and they did mock Rose’s appearance whereas recently I’ve come across tweets where they were surprised Tran is that attractive and said they wished she’d been styled differently for TLJ (i.e. sexy) Eh bien And don’t get me started on fan art of Rey I’ve seen on Twitter that’s drawn by some fanboys too as well as the praise it keeps receiving from men - where Rey’s breasts are bigger than her head WTH
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 8:16 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey @nana7marie

Women are taught our primary worth is in how we look and how much male attention we receive; I can't ignore this when speculating why some men have such a visceral loathing toward Rey and Rose. I think critiquing their character arcs, personalities, and calling Rey a "Mary Sue" are all smokescreens for the real, carnal reasoning of why some men get angry with Rey and Rose.

I ask myself, would there be such a backlash against Rey's character for being too "perfect/flawless/strong/feminist" if she, let's say, had been played by a busty bombshell like Alexandra Daddario? Would fanboys have hated Rose with as much vehemence if she was played by Veronica Ngo?

I'm going to answer both questions with a resounding, "no."

(Quick disclaimer: obligatory 'not all men', and yes, I know there are women who dislike Rey and/or Rose too. There's genuine constructive criticism for how Rey and Rose could've been portrayed more efficiently as characters, but I'm not talking about fans who are coming from a place of honest critique; I'm talking about the fans who trashed both actresses for their looks and claim it has nothing to do with disliking their characters.)
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Post by Gemini on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 8:23 am

@toolonelytosleep

You know.

I think there is some definite truth in what you are saying. Not SW related but, I remember once, speaking with someone about Kill Bill and he literally said. "I don't like Kill Bill" and I asked why and he said "She's not hot" I said "Why does that matter?, its about the story" his response was, "I don't watch women on screen for the story I watch them if they are hot" he was genuinely very angry about Kill Bill.

I was pretty damn shocked at how shallow it actually can be in regards to a woman's worth on screen.

Its not all like this though. But I do get tired of women's worth being based around looks, seeping in to everything even a story at times.
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Post by OrionStars on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 8:30 am

@toolonelytosleep wrote:I'm probably in the minority when it comes to this opinion, but I don't think fanboys disliked Rey and Rose because of the way they were written. I think it comes down to physical appearance.

In male-dominated spaces for SW, I saw plenty of men insulting Daisy Ridley and Kelly Marie Tran for not looking hot enough or feminine enough. Both actresses are pretty and I'd kill to look like them, but their type of down-to-earth beauty appeals more so to women, not straight men. They're not sexualized like Leia was, nor are they dolled up like Padme. Rey and Rose wear minimal or natural-looking makeup and modest, practical clothing. Their beauty and sexuality is not played up for straight men. They're attractive women, but it's not central to their existence as characters.

Back when TLJ had come out, I remember some male fans went as far as to say they wished Rose and Paige had switched places, or that Rose had been played by Veronica Ngo. I wonder why? Rolling Eyes

Maybe I'm extremely cynical and physical appearance has nothing to do with why some men have problems with Rey/Rose's characters, but I think it does play somewhat of a part.

To be fair, I've seen something similar from female antis on Twitter and Tumblr who despise Kylo because they don't find him hot enough. They'll call Anakin their baby boy and drool over other popular villains like Loki, but Kylo isn't "worthy" in their eyes because Adam isn't a conventional pretty boy.
@toolonelytosleep



The bold part, It's also a myth that I still can't figure out. Such as, most fanboys think Trilla and Merrin are hot waifu, while I see them as angsty goth sisters. Trilla and Merrin look tough, and they're not conventionally attractive.
I have a little niece who loves collecting Japanese' magical girl shoujo manga and anime. Those stuff heavily feature female empowerment fantasies, their female protagonists usually look average or being called "average" through other characters' point of view, most of them have to fight tooth and nail and have to go through a lot of obstacles. I remember my niece said there was a female manga character she loved the most because that character got a really terrible scar on her chest after she fought the bad guy to protect her boyfriend. I mean if nowadays kids got stuff like that, how could they find a perfect and flawless character like Rey interesting?  I can't even blame people if they think Rey is a Mary Sue. No wonder kids start getting attached to Kylo and defend him while fanboys think Kylo is weak.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 18 Nov 2019, 11:10 am

FULL ARTICLE FROM COLLIDER

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker has had a long and storied history to the big screen, with lots of collaborators and cooks in the Episode IX saga-ending kitchen. Now, we’ve heard that the Writers Guild of America (WGA) has finally settled on who will get final writing credit on the epic film. And it’s a little surprising.

The screenplay will be credited to “Chris Terrio & J. J. Abrams,” with the ampersand indicating that the two worked together. The film will also have a “Based on Characters Created by George Lucas” credit. So far, this all makes sense. But the WGA also decided The Rise of Skywalker will have a “Story by Derek Connolly & Colin Trevorrow and Chris Terrio & J. J. Abrams” credit. And if you recall, Trevorrow (Safety Not Guaranteed, Jurassic World) was originally set to co-write and direct Episode IX before being ousted in favor of Abrams returning. Which means that the WGA likely decided some of what Trevorrow and Connolly were originally planning for the film made it into the final product. It also means that they will receive a good amount of residuals, which is a pretty nice consolation prize for not seeing the final film through.


The final WGA arbitration does come as a bit of a surprise, especially given Abrams’ quotes in an interview with Fast Company where he said he was starting with “no script.”

You’ve got two years from the decision to do it to release, and you have literally nothing . . . . You don’t have the story, you don’t have the cast, you don’t have the designers, the sets. There was a crew, and there were things that will be worked on for the version that preceded ours, but this was starting over. And because this was such a mega job, I knew at the very least I needed a cowriter to work on this thing, but I didn’t know who that cowriter would be. There was nothing. So the first thing I did was reach out to a writer who I’ve admired for years, Chris Terrio. who I didn’t really know, to say, “Listen, would you want to write Star Wars with me?” And he screamed.

This story, which literally uses the phrase “starting over,” sure makes it seem like Abrams and Terrio started over, using nothing of Trevorrow and Connolly’s vision. And yet, they are credited on the final product. So did Abrams approve of and incorporate some of Trevorrow and Connolly’s version after all? Were some of their ideas just too good to pass up? Did Abrams make sure his writing predecessors were taken care of no matter what?

Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker hits the big screen December 20, 2019, which gives all of us plenty of time to speculate. For more Star Wars news, here’s our latest review of The Mandalorian. Plus, check out what Abrams and Lucas talked about when they met.
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