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Post by motherofpearl1 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 2:39 am

I think two things happened regarding TROS; both were the fault of the writers/directors.
Terrio wasn't really interested in Kylo, apart from a one note villain, he was all about The Twins. Hence his silly 'retcon' of established canon, such as Jedi Leia and Luke going from a cynic in TLJ to a saintly old FG chiding Rey for throwing away the lightsabre. This was why Ben was practically forgotten post his 'death', he was, after all, a Solo, and there was no room for Solos in Terrio's Twins as a Couple fanfiction.

Abrams wasn't happy with the fact that Kylo/Ben was the most popular character in the ST. He wanted that character to be Rey. And I also suspect that he was disappointed three actors who are personal friends of his didn't get the 'love and affection' from fans that he wanted them to. Just look at who got all the screen time in TROS. The entire film revolved around the Trio. Daisy and John wanted to 'work together', John wanted Finn to be FS, he also wanted him to 'get' Rey - he didn't get that wish granted but of course it was left 'up in the air' so to speak. Oscar wanted Poe to live post TFA; he did and ended up getting more screentime in TROS than Kylo did.
All of the cast were shunted aside so the Trio could take centre stage - Kelly, Adam, Domnhall - despite being major characters. But unfortunately the Trio were no way Han, Luke and Leia, and it showed.
DLF made a very big mistake in re hiring Abrams and hiring Terrio. They essentially allowed them to have free reign with the final film, which was a big mistake. As a result we got an incoherent mess which didn't so much as end a nine film saga than spent most of the film retconning the two previous ones. No wonder so many people have chosen not to accept it as 'canon'. DLF of course will not retcon TROS - but they should, if only in books and comics. They actually retconned the Halloween franchise with H20 and it worked.
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Post by Birdwoman Thu 04 Feb 2021, 10:31 am

I agree motherofpearl1. Having watched TROS this weekend with my hubby, it was more clear just how bad that film is. They were really trying to make the trio work but the problem is that none of them were screen tested to be a 'trio.' I never thought that Oscar was supposed to be part of the Rey and Finn story line in the first film. The one scene that stuck out to me this time as a big ret con was JJ having that stupid kylo helmet put back together. I think it might have bothered him that Rian destroyed the helmet.

About Daisy's comment, yeah I was not happy that Ben died but I could have felt less bitter had the story been better. His death, his story was just so bad in this movie. There should have been more emotional weight to it.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 11:06 am

@Birdwoman wrote:I agree motherofpearl1. Having watched TROS this weekend with my hubby, it was more clear just how bad that film is. They were really trying to make the trio work but the problem is that none of them were screen tested to be a 'trio.' I never thought that Oscar was supposed to be part of the Rey and Finn story line in the first film. The one scene that stuck out to me this time as a big ret con was JJ having that stupid kylo helmet put back together. I think it might have bothered him that Rian destroyed the helmet.

About Daisy's comment, yeah I was not happy that Ben died but I could have felt less bitter had the story been better. His death, his story was just so bad in this movie. There should have been more emotional weight to it.
@Birdwoman

Exactly. The fact that Rey never mourned him is what truly grates about this film. They try to paint it as like Titanic, but that's nonsense. The scene at the end of that film when Rose realises Jack is not going to wake up is the most heartbreaking scene in the film. Winslet nailed it in just a few minutes, showing her utter devastation at his death yet choosing to survive because it was what he wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mct-F_bp1Qw

At the end of Titanic Rose reveals that everything she did in life, from her adventures to marrying and having children, was to honour Jack's memory. She lived life to the full but never stopped mourning him.

Rey did not shed one tear for Ben, even though he died for her. She cried more for his father, who she knew five minutes, than for the young man who fed her his life force at the cost of his own.
Luke mourned Darth Vader. He wept for him. He built a funeral pyre for him. He only smiled when he saw him as a FG, once again Anakin Skywalker, with his friends and mentors.
Rey is seen at the end of TROS with a positively repugnant smirk on her face. Smiled upon by her dead surrogate parents, accompanied by someone else's droid, she stands smiling as she faces a future she wouldn't have had without Ben Solo, without once even mentioning his name. She acts as if he never existed. She isn't seen telling Finn and Poe, or Leia's FG, what he did. And even in the novel....she doesn't. I'm sorry Daisy but the ending they chose did nothing but show her character as an emotionless, judgmental robot.

Truly the Emperor's granddaughter.

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Post by Birdwoman Thu 04 Feb 2021, 11:21 am

I want to believe that TROS is Rey's villain origin story.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 11:42 am

Yes, I'm writing a Rose/Ben fanfic where that scenario comes up, it's wonderful therapy!
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Post by Saracene Thu 04 Feb 2021, 2:59 pm

Rey mourning Ben at the end still wouldn’t have fixed things, because that doesn’t fix the greater problem - that the movie never fully commits to the romance and leaves Rey’s feelings murky and ambiguous (the problem that stretches back to TLJ). Titanic couldn’t have been more clear about Rose’s feelings for Jack, that’s why her grief in the end hits so hard. There’s a good reason why the kiss in TRoS came off as hollow and out-of-nowhere for a large portion of the audience.
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Post by motherofpearl1 Thu 04 Feb 2021, 3:26 pm

In short....the movie is utter c***.
My lovely late mum was never a fan of sci fi...but she loved SW. I asked her why, once.
She said...
"Because SW isn't just flashy special effects. It has heart."

My lovely mum died before TROS was released. She would have been so disappointed.
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Post by californiagirl Fri 05 Feb 2021, 11:57 pm

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 1:56 am

@californiagirl

I actually think both Daisy and John will return in a few years once the dust has settled, the Lego special set up that she was training him, but if so I suspect it would be on Disney+ rather than the big screen. I myself am not interested as I never want to see either of their characters in a Star Wars setting again post TROS, but their fans will love it.
Off topic I see Daisy has quit SM for her 'mental health; can't say I blame her.
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Post by MindAndMagic Sat 06 Feb 2021, 12:38 pm

A little bit more. I like that Daisy mentions the chemistry cause it's really what carried their scenes, which I think could be the implication of "luckily".

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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Feb 2021, 1:18 pm

@MindAndMagic wrote:A little bit more. I like that Daisy mentions the chemistry cause it's realluy what carried their scenes.

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@MindAndMagic

Man, I wish they hadn't wasted that chemistry in TRoS.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 1:46 pm

Ditto. So many people refuse to accept that. I think it's why I love TLJ; Rian saw it and went for it and he gave Finn his own love interest, so he wouldn't be the third wheel; I love TLJ so much.
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Post by Saracene Sat 06 Feb 2021, 2:17 pm

I’m not sure what Daisy understands as a “love story”, but she obviously thinks it’s something shallow if she thinks that a romance can’t encompass deeper things and that people can’t learn important things from it. “Relationship journey”? Sure let’s describe it in the blandest most generic way possible, no romance to see here.


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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 2:25 pm

Daisy or DLF?
I might be wrong....but I think much of the way TLJ ended was due to studio interference. They didn't want to end it with a sympathetic Ben' Whatever.
SW was about hope. TROS erased it.
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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Feb 2021, 4:27 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Daisy or DLF?
I might be wrong....but I think much of the way TLJ ended was due to studio interference. They didn't want to end it with a sympathetic Ben' Whatever.
SW was about hope. TROS erased it.
@motherofpearl1

I actually have trouble watching TLJ past the throne room scene now because of how it ends with Ben's regression.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sat 06 Feb 2021, 4:40 pm

Also I hate Rey's supercilious attitude.

Jason Fry said he had to show Rey like that at the end of the novelisation, while Rian had to show Rey and Poe flirting because Trevorrow wanted Dame Rey. I think Rian wanted something different but Disney like to call the shots.I wonder if them poking their unwanted noses in was what really screwed up SW.
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Post by karamelreylo Sat 06 Feb 2021, 4:47 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Also I hate Rey's supercilious attitude.

Jason Fry said he had to show Rey like that at the end of the novelisation, while Rian had to show Rey and Poe flirting because Trevorrow wanted Dame Rey. I think Rian wanted something different but Disney like to call the shots.I wonder if them poking their unwanted noses in was what really screwed up SW.
@motherofpearl1

Ugh, I hate Disney regarding Star Wars. Like I have no problems with Disney's animated movies and their live action movies until Mulan, but you can really tell how "feminism" has affected their film-making. What's going on with Marvel regarding the female heroes is pretty bad, too.

Also, I think I've literally switched to Deadpool for Ed Skrein twice while watching TLJ on TV after the throne room scene because I'm a creature of habit and coincidence.

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Post by californiagirl Sat 06 Feb 2021, 10:12 pm

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Hehe.

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Post by motherofpearl1 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 3:28 am

I'm writing fan fiction but TROS has burned me badly with reylo.....I have to admit the way they character assassinated Rey is almost as bad as killing off Ben.
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Post by MaddieDove Sun 07 Feb 2021, 11:06 am

As if fans needed Daisy's, or anyone else's from LF, encouragement for writing book-lenght fanfics about Reylo. They've been doing it for five years, thank you very much, with much better and satisfying results than her best pal JJ and oh so knowledgeable Terrio have had.

The other thing is what @motherofpearl1 says - TROS burned us pretty hard and I see a massive drop of canon Reylo fics. They alienated the biggest fans of the ST, without providing the story worth of continuing, enjoying, fantasizing, or writing Reylo or non-Reylo fanfiction about. Or are there a massive love and TROS fan community I'm just not seeing, being such a short-sighted Reylo fan?


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Post by motherofpearl1 Sun 07 Feb 2021, 12:01 pm

Honestly don't know about TROS, but 'the infamous Kylo haters forum' (sacrebleur and vaderito know who I mean) has a lot of Trio fans,a few Damereys and a lot of FinnReys, which I suspect is why they hate reylo.

Yet another vid is making its rounds on youtube suggesting that DLF are retconning the ST using the 'worlds between worlds' theory, furiously denied by them of course, but I wonder how long it'll be before Disney are forced to confront the fact that TROS was probably the biggest commercial mistake they have ever made. Very Happy

This is old hat and therefore probably posted before but....first time I've seen it. Is it just me or is JB jealous of Adam?
https://thedirect.com/article/star-wars-john-boyega-voices-frustration-at-disneys-treatment-of-finn-in-sequel-trilogy
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Post by californiagirl Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:44 pm

Rian's trilogy is still on! She interviewed Rian after Daisy.

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Reylo confirmed again.

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Post by Kyla Ren Mon 15 Feb 2021, 9:53 pm

@californiagirl

Thanks for posting those tweets. Smile  Do you know if her interviews with Daisy and Rian will be posted in full at some point in the future?  Or have they already been?  I'm kind of out of the loop on all of this stuff.
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Post by AhsokaTano Tue 16 Feb 2021, 7:32 am

@californiagirl
Thanks for posting the tweet . Jason Fry has responded :
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It probably will break the internet lol
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Post by motherofpearl1 Tue 16 Feb 2021, 8:48 am

I remember way back after TROS came out a youtuber gave it a review and he said that the retcon of TLJ was so obvious it was 'almost vengeful'.

Which is exactly what I thought - it seemed petty and spiteful, and they spent so much time doing it they forgot to make a proper film.
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