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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:12 pm

If only they could release a director's cut of this film, and maybe improve it.
Especially with an alternative ending.

One thing I am puzzled by..... what's all this theme park stuff? Everyone's saying it's the reason for TROS being a disaster.
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Post by Birdwoman on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:24 pm

This is my hot take and I can't remember if I posted this on this forum....
I suspect that Lucas Film killed off the biological Skywalkers because they wanted to free themselves from having to make anymore Skywalker movies unless they wanted to? The whole company was built around this saga and they are now trying to expand it so they can diversify the universe more....

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Post by special_cases on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:28 pm

The funniest moment is when Poe discovered that Hux is a spy! I rewatched it three times! This is so pure Very Happy Seriously, Hux with Resistance is more enojable than the trio.

Also, when Kylo said "HUNTING THIS SCAVENGER" lol! lol! lol! This is straight from all Reylo fanfics.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:37 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:This is my hot take and I can't remember if I posted this on this forum....
I suspect that Lucas Film killed off the biological Skywalkers because they wanted to free themselves from having to make anymore Skywalker movies unless they wanted to? The whole company was built around this saga and they are now trying to expand it so they can diversify the universe more....
They want their own version of Star Wars.
Problem is.....the Skywalkers are the heart and soul of Star Wars.
The spin offs will never quite match that. And they will never have another character like Kylo Ren.
What a waste.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:43 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:This is my hot take and I can't remember if I posted this on this forum....
I suspect that Lucas Film killed off the biological Skywalkers because they wanted to free themselves from having to make anymore Skywalker movies unless they wanted to? The whole company was built around this saga and they are now trying to expand it so they can diversify the universe more....
@Birdwoman

Free themselves of Skywalker and also, just incase, they can reboot the prequels with shmi 2.0

They could have just closed this movie off and never needed to go back to it with the two on tatooine with a baby  but no. The film was left open ended again...lol
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Post by nickandnora on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:45 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:This is my hot take and I can't remember if I posted this on this forum....
I suspect that Lucas Film killed off the biological Skywalkers because they wanted to free themselves from having to make anymore Skywalker movies unless they wanted to? The whole company was built around this saga and they are now trying to expand it so they can diversify the universe more....
@Birdwoman

I'm sure this is the reason, but it's always been a dumb idea (dumb before they did it, dumb after they did it). They could have ended the saga in a way that was emotionally satisfying (again: haven't seen it yet, maybe I'll have a different opinion), provided closure, hope for the future, said something unique about redemption, etc. and then just never revisisted the Skywalkers SPECIFICALLY (except maybe in cameo, if they felt the desire).

I might as well just say this and get this out of the way now even though I haven't seen it yet (because I'm sure I'll have a lot to talk about late tonight after I have), but in summation this entire anthology ended up saying some really bizarrely cynical things about family love AND romantic love. They really drive home the message that friends are the family you choose and that friendship is the most powerful thing of all, but it doesn't sound like they even say that successfully (and in the OT, it didn't come across as though they were trying so hard to deliver that message). As someone whose most significant relationships involve both familial/parental love, and romantic love as well (of the healthy kind) I don't really connect with this message. I mean, the pieces were there for them to say something about reconciliation within a family (and it sounds like they halfway did it with Han and sort-of Leia) but the message is really undermined with that ending and Luke and Kylo not interacting again ever. Not to mention Rey just kind of ignoring her parents' existence and what they did for her (if I'm understanding that correctly). And romantic love... sheesh. I don't actually like love stories as an almost-rule (except for the absolute classics) and one of the reasons is this: no one seems to know how to do it correctly without having one/both parties die at the end. Either that, or there is the need to show that everything disintegrates with time (see: Han and Leia). Again, as someone who a) has parents are still together, b) has in-laws who spent their lives as in-love lobsters until my FIL's death, and c) couldn't have lucked out more in having my spouse, this message does NOT resonate. I recognize this is entirely personal. But I suspect this wouldn't resonate with anyone who is at all hopeful in life.

Again, the message that you can choose your family, and friendship is a strong extension of that is fine and good, but there's literally no reason it should come at the expense of other types of love (when they spent so much time focusing on the other kinds of love anyway only to kind of shrug their shoulders at it in the end).

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Post by MaddieDove on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 3:51 pm

Today I've seen TLJ with my family. We all agreed that Rian really knocked it out of the park. I didn't mind the pacing and editing this time. The dialogue is perfect and really poetic, even the jokes were endearing. We adored Hux in each of his scenes (Gleeson had so much fun with the role!). Finn is less a comic relief than in TFA. Kylo is still delightfully ambiguous, Adam is brilliant. We revisited PT last week (TPM is unwatchable, AOTC is better, ROTS is really angsty). But we all agreed that TLJ is the pinnacle of the series, with ESB.

When Rey feels the dark calling her on Ahch-To, it opens the door for possible Rey Palpatine. Luke being so upset by the darkness looming in her. However, then Kylo's line about filthy junk traders doesn't make sense.
I'm just skimming your reactions here (I'll watch TROS tomorrow), but many Rian's ideas seem to be abandoned. Rian is a gift. And knowing he wrote the film himself and alone make him grow so much in my eyes. And his graceful behavior in last two years as well.
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:00 pm

I saw it for the second time today! The movie slightly grow on me but not by much. I liked Kylo's scenes more. He is the only character in this trilogy that has a good and constant story arc that actually works but the rest of characters are another story. Writing in this movie is bad, the dialogs and flat plot, big plot holes. Ben is the only character that really goes through some change in this movie and it works. The trio and returning cast were completely wasted. Finn, in my opinion, is the most useless and wasted character in the whole saga. I liked Poe through but he was unimportant as well.
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Post by Gemini on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:03 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Well, I think I'm going to make time to go tonight despite my Christmas schedule. I don't know if I truly want to inflict this on my grandparents and movies are expensive in the city. I can see it for 7$ Canadian here. I'm telling my grandparents we should see Knives Out instead if they truly want to go to the cinema.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Take a bunch of tissues.

I'm going on my own tomorrow now. Family cant see it until after xmas.

I need to watch it sooner rather than later. Like ripping off a band aid.
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Post by reylo1992 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:03 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:Strangely, I am becoming more emotional while thinking about the implications of that ending. I didn't expect something joyful like ROTJ but it simply that it doesn't really feel like an ending because so many questions left. Although I enjoy nuance and ambiguity, I kinda hoped that J.J. would explain certain things clearer so that it doesn't feel like I need to buy additional stuff to fill some important gap. And where it feels really bittersweet is that basically they end up the franchise with all Skywalkers dying tragically without any certainty that the last one really lives within Rey can return in some way or could give Rey at least a kid during the Force moment. I think the political context played a big part in the way they openly made Rey this strong woman who can move on no matter what, which is probably the main difference with the beginning of her journey and that they didn't want to go openly with the idea of the widow carrying the baby of her lover. That's understandable, especially given Kylo's journey all along. I still believe that it's not a coincidence if they inserted subtle clues of maternal vibe. At the beginning of the movie, she and Poe were arguing about BB8 as if he was their child. Her ending with him by his side at the end of the movie is IMO no coincidence. It's only that it's left to interpretation, which doesn't feel like this is really the end of the Skywalker arc although it should feel like that. I wish at least that they insert at least a rumination scene instead of having her just hugging with Poe and Finn. Maz was there.: they could have inserted a little callback to their TFA dialogue so that as a viewer we feel how Rey has evolved about all these questions she had. Anyway, I  expect to be more emotional during second viewing in my native language. Otherwise, I agree that this is also a movie that made me genuinely smile and laugh. All SW movies have their flaws and  but there is something magic about that universe.  
@reylo1992


Oh lord.. your review is making me want to watch.... you are right there is something magical about the GFFA
@spacebaby45678

The overall fresco remains magical, no matter how good we find TROS. I believe that everybody can ultimately come to term with the two big outcomes of the movie, which are that Rey is a descendant of the Big Bad and the last Skywalker dies. IMO, it's the execution of these ideas that could take long to digest for a lot of people. On the hand, I enjoy that they gave us actions and humor but it also feels like they didn't leave enough room to develop core storytelling & overall drama while therewere so many unanswered questions left by TLJ.  Personally, I have no problem with the answers they chose but I wish that Abrams and Terrio would have produced a scenario that really enabled to give the overall  story a higher dimension while binding everything alltogether. I may not be an Academy Award screenwriter but IMO making Rey Palpatine's descendant could have been handled in a better way even if that's obviously not what they had planned all along. Making her his granddaughter just to set the perfect parallel with Ben as Anakin's grandson doesn't feel completely pertinent, just with the thought that this old wreck of Palpatine got laid sometimes around the Clone Wars. I keep coming back to Trevorrow's statement thar Rey was meant to be important to the entire galaxy and that the answer should feel like it's something that happened a long time ago in a galaxy far away.

I am aware that it doesn't help now that the movie is out but if I had been in charge to closing this arc, I would have come back to the origins of the Jedi and the Siths. If Palpatine really has all the Siths living with him, I personally believe it would have been more powerful to make Rey his long lost descendant and explain that Shmi was a descendant of Prime Jedi, the Force creating Anakin as the result of this phantom menace that was the return of the Siths thousand years after they disappeared. That would have given a profundly satisfying answer to why Palpatine was obssessed with targetting Skywalkers in the first place and why he was also obssessed with finding his own descendant, thus reinterpreting the Prophecy of the Chosen One through the idea that two descendant of the Jedi and the Siths were needed to bring Balance. To me, it would have made more sense than the idea of this old wreck of Palpatine getting laid around the time of the Clone Wars and Rey ultimately killing her own grandfather. I am certainly under the influence of Scholar who walks by the night but the idea of making the female lead the long lost descendant of Vampire Gwi was a powerful arc even if poorly executed overall. It still makes emotionally and storywise sense : the viewer discovers that the heroine fits in the story because Big Bad fell in love with a woman a long time ago but killed her after learning that any human descendant would hold the key to destroy him. Thus, it's emotionally strange to see him meeting his descendant centuries later but the fact that the roots to this story happened a long time ago while Gwi still had a few humanity doesn't give the vibe that Granddad gonna get killed by close blood relative:
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 22 Screen11

As for Ben dying, I have no problem with the idea in itself even if bittersweet. When I think about it, the beauty of Ben's gesture is that he  died  worthy of his family legacy. All Skywalker fell/died saving a loved one and/or a cause: Padme to save Anakin, Anakin to save Luke, Luke to save the Resistance, Han and Leia to save Ben, Ben to save Rey. I wish that this is something that would have been reminded more strongly to the audience, how much this family paid a high price dedicating themselves to the fate of the Galaxy although none of them asked to be thrown in the middle of that mess. Even the comic makes it clear now that Ben never asked to become this power-hungry shadow he became. That's what make his sacrifice even more beautiful and heartbreaking but it still feels strange that it happened after a Palpatine ultimately defeated a Palpatine all alone. Generally, it feels like they had a certain story in mind and probably lost some confidence in pushing them after the backlash received b TLJ. Where I truly feel sad for you is that when I look back at the three movies, it feels like they had set up ground for Rey Kenobi while leaving other possibilities opened and finally choosing what would make the audience gasp the most, which is what happened. There were two Reylo girls next to me in the theaters who literally screamed "What?" when they heard Kylo telling Rey she is Palpy's granddaughter.
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Post by nonesuch on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:15 pm

This isn't a popular opinion it seems, but I really enjoyed the movie. It has undeniable flaws, which have been widely discussed (primarily pacing, which is whack), but I ultimately found it really moving and beautiful - especially all the Reylo stuff. Adam and Daisy completely knock it out of the park, and I find the criticism that there isn't much dialogue between them (particularly post-redemption) strange because the performances make their every interaction deeply moving. No words could say more than Ben Solo smiling as his eyes shine, taking in the face of the woman he loves. It's hard to beat and I'm welling up thinking about it.

I'm still processing and will have much more to say on my blog/Scavenger's Hoard. I just wanted to inject some positivity here for the time being. To those of you who haven't seen it yet and are dejected about the spoilers, I sincerely hope you find things to appreciate in the film.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:21 pm

@nonesuch wrote:This isn't a popular opinion it seems, but I really enjoyed the movie. It has undeniable flaws, which have been widely discussed (primarily pacing, which is whack), but I ultimately found it really moving and beautiful - especially all the Reylo stuff. Adam and Daisy completely knock it out of the park, and I find the criticism that there isn't much dialogue between them (particularly post-redemption) strange because the performances make their every interaction deeply moving. No words could say more than Ben Solo smiling as his eyes shine, taking in the face of the woman he loves. It's hard to beat and I'm welling up thinking about it.

I'm still processing and will have much more to say on my blog/Scavenger's Hoard. I just wanted to inject some positivity here for the time being. To those of you who haven't seen it yet and are dejected about the spoilers, I sincerely hope you find things to appreciate in the film.
@nonesuch

Thank you! I need the positive reviews from Reylo/Bendemptionists! It helps to consider another angle (perhaps what the powers that be intended); they just didn't understand the popularity and empathy people felt with Ben, which is disheartening. Anyway, I appreciate it, and please no worries about not having a popular opinion. We're family. Goodwill hugs! I made the mistake of being a butt about the leak postings and interpretations...will definitely not repeat being that way again.

I don't regret cancelling my viewing this evening, but I am seeing it tomorrow. Sometimes I am tempted to cancel that viewing, but posts such as yours helps me to stay the course. Very Happy Smile
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Post by nickandnora on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:As for Ben dying, I have no problem with the idea in itself even if bittersweet. When I think about it, the beauty of Ben's gesture is that he  died  worthy of his family legacy. All Skywalker fell/died saving a loved one and/or a cause: Padme to save Anakin, Anakin to save Luke, Luke to save the Resistance, Han and Leia to save Ben, Ben to save Rey. I wish that this is something that would have been reminded more strongly to the audience, how much this family paid a high price dedicating themselves to the fate of the Galaxy although none of them asked to be thrown in the middle of that mess. Even the comic makes it clear now that Ben never asked to become this power-hungry shadow he became. That's what make his sacrifice even more beautiful and heartbreaking but it still feels strange that it happened after a Palpatine ultimately defeated a Palpatine all alone.
I'm not sure how I feel about this message though, especially in a saga that has spanned so many decades. I'm rather uncomfortable with the idea that certain people are destined to make sacrifices for the greater good (and those sacrifices cost them their lives). While there might be a time and a place for self-sacrifice to the extent that these films are arguing I think it's something that must be borne out of necessity and extreme circumstance and not pre-determinism. And it's romantic maybe once. Then tragic. And then (as what seems to be happening here with Ben's death) farcical.

Again, I get the theoretical idea behind it, but when one thinks about it for more than 10 seconds... man, does it become an unfortunate message. It's like the Skywalkers were groomed by the bad guys to be evil, and then groomed by the good guys to be martyrs. There's no in-between. That's some heavy stuff, personally.

ETA: I'm just talking about the messages on a surface level without seeing the film yet though. This is purely time-killing until I have something concrete to say about the film itself. I enjoy hearing from those who enjoyed it! I very well might as well (I'm certainly not going into it fully expecting to hate it - the explicit Reylo spoilers were an excellent, positive surprise, personally).


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

Well said. But at the end of the day I could have forgiven this movie if it had only had a happy ending.
Depressing people at Christmas is unforgivable. And I will never see the entire saga in the same light now knowing that the entire Skywalker line has been erased.
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Post by reylo1992 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:22 pm

@special_cases wrote:The funniest moment is when Poe discovered that Hux is a spy! I rewatched it three times! This is so pure Very Happy Seriously, Hux with Resistance is more enojable than the trio.

Also, when Kylo said "HUNTING THIS SCAVENGER" lol! lol! lol! This is straight from all Reylo fanfics.
@special_cases

Ikr. That's how some of the things made me feel, i.e. the way Kylo delivered the "you're Palpatine's grandaughter" and the whole idea of "Remperor/Rempress". Wonder if Abrams and Terrio didn't take fanfictions into account for some parts of the plots.
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Post by nonesuch on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:26 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@nonesuch wrote:This isn't a popular opinion it seems, but I really enjoyed the movie. It has undeniable flaws, which have been widely discussed (primarily pacing, which is whack), but I ultimately found it really moving and beautiful - especially all the Reylo stuff. Adam and Daisy completely knock it out of the park, and I find the criticism that there isn't much dialogue between them (particularly post-redemption) strange because the performances make their every interaction deeply moving. No words could say more than Ben Solo smiling as his eyes shine, taking in the face of the woman he loves. It's hard to beat and I'm welling up thinking about it.

I'm still processing and will have much more to say on my blog/Scavenger's Hoard. I just wanted to inject some positivity here for the time being. To those of you who haven't seen it yet and are dejected about the spoilers, I sincerely hope you find things to appreciate in the film.
@nonesuch

Thank you! I need the positive reviews from Reylo/Bendemptionists! It helps to consider another angle (perhaps what the powers that be intended); they just didn't understand the popularity and empathy people felt with Ben, which is disheartening. Anyway, I appreciate it, and please no worries about not having a popular opinion. We're family. Goodwill hugs! I made the mistake of being a butt about the leak postings and interpretations...will definitely not repeat being that way again.

I don't regret cancelling my viewing this evening, but I am seeing it tomorrow. Sometimes I am tempted to cancel that viewing, but posts such as yours helps me to stay the course. Very Happy Smile
@SW_Heroine_Journey

It makes me really happy to read that, and I hope you have a good time watching it. It's totally worth watching for yourself and making up your own mind - if nothing else, it's an opportunity to spend time with the characters we all love as performed by great actors doing fantastic work. Good luck for it.
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Post by Rachelmckellar34 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:33 pm

okay i just watched it i see what you guys mean about the pregnancy thing i mean there hands joined over her belly . maybe there leaving that door open ?

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Post by Moonjump05 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:47 pm

Gah, going to see it in a little over an hour! My heart will be shredded from the Ben and reylo scenes. I don't even care about the rest at this point.
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Post by Moonjump05 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:52 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Well said. But at the end of the day I could have forgiven this movie if it had only had a happy ending.
Depressing people at Christmas is unforgivable. And I will never see the entire saga in the same light now knowing that the entire Skywalker line has been erased.
@motherofpearl1

Yeah, I still can't even with the end. It's needlessly sad for an overall ending of the saga. And needlessly sad for Rey, who does live and is presumably going to have more stories but I just can't care about it.

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Post by Saracene on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:55 pm

I can see what people mean about the pregnancy thing, but IMO the chances of Disney considering making Rey a 20-year-old single mother are about billion to one.
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Post by Moonjump05 on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 4:59 pm

@Saracene wrote:I can see what people mean about the pregnancy thing, but IMO the chances of Disney considering making Rey a 20-year-old single mother are about billion to one.
@Saracene

They did it with Hera in Rebels. I think she was about 24 to 26.
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Post by Birdwoman on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 5:29 pm

I am definitely glad to hear positive reviews from fellow Reylos. I was extremely sad about Ben dying and Rey ending up alone. But I will keep an open mind when I see the movie.

I have no doubt we will see more of Ben Solo. I am sure they will write more stories with him.


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Post by special_cases on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 5:29 pm

Okay, the second hour of my date with this Frankenstein's monster...

- So JJ made Kylo chase after Rey aroung the whole Galaxy, which is kind of cute because he can't even play aggressiveness for one second, only because JJ wanted to make this MacGuffin adventure trio plot. While he already had the Force Bond between Rey and Kylo!!! You can use it, JJ, it's already there. No, instead of creating something close to small arc for Kylo and expand Reylo, JJ needs to do the most basic thing ever. Seriously, JJ is a vacuum of creativeness. This is embarrasing. Perhaps JJ and Co were so afraid that Kylo will steal the show again that they decided that Kylo got enough popularity with TLJ so they need to push everybody else. But how you can fail so bad while doing this. All scenes are exhausting and you're waiting for Kylo to f****ng chase Rey again.

- Jannah is so cute! Totally unneccessary here as she takes from Finn his only one original quality: being ex-Stormtrooper.

- When Rey found the Holocron I laughed so hard! Oh my, no logic is allowed in this movie. OT's plots are Caravaggio compared to this birthday card.

- Kylo wants Rey so bad when he destroys Wayfinder, this is wild like in fanfics.

- So one of the messages here was that Rey can't find her real "belonging" with Resistance because she is haunted by the questions about her family and Kylo is framed as one of obstacles for her journey to be "spiritually" in peace with Finn... and Poe I guess??? Dear Lord. It gets decontructed near the end, and I don't know know anymore, all these themes in the movie are like rabid cockroaches, I give up and I don't care...

- Rey and Kylo should have kissed after she healed him. But movie plays Leia's death as shock value and I dislike it very much.

- Poor Chewie, his reacting to Leia's death was truly heartbreaking moment, this is so pure and just proves that JJ made a cop-out of Ben's death.

- I don't understand this thing with Rey and kids... D-O is framed as a kid. I really don't get it. So random.

- Imagine this stupidity: Luke says that Leia felt that her journey as Jedi will lead to the death of her kid and she hoped that someone will pick up her lightsaber for finish her journey. Someone is Rey. Mmmmm, someone who makes Leia's son dead like it happens in the end of the movie? For good reasons, of course lol! I'm starting to think that yeah, they changed the end...

- There are like 15 lines of original dialogue in this movie.

- Luke as FG is kind of cool. Should have been a priest at Reylo wedding and made a bad joke during ceremony.

- Sith Spirits and Sith arena was quite brilliant idea but the screentime and zero foreshadowing for this is a crime. Why should we care? We discovered it 3 minutes ago.

- I literally jumped when Ben entered the shot, returning to Rey. Only ONE thing that is earned during this movie.

- STAND TOGETHER. DIE TOGETHER H-beating H-beating H-beating Palpy is Darth Reylo

- So Palpy took a life Force of their Bond... Hmmmmmmm.

- The Reylo last scene is the most beautiful scene in the whole ST. It's just so emotional and meaningful compared to other things...

- Celebration after this is tone-deaf. Though I must admit Rey does look like her heart was broken.

- Oh my, I now understand why some people think about Shmi, you need to watch the whole last scene. Just a feeling but this is so odd.

- Of course, I knew that there are Luke and Leia FG in the end but watching this - WTF they are doing there? And why they look like a couple, LOL?

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Post by Saracene on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 5:42 pm

@Moonjump05 wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I can see what people mean about the pregnancy thing, but IMO the chances of Disney considering making Rey a 20-year-old single mother are about billion to one.
@Saracene

They did it with Hera in Rebels. I think she was about 24 to 26.
@Moonjump05

Doing this story in a huge mainstream blockbuster that's scrutinised with the power of ten thousand suns is a completely different thing though, compared to a relatively niche TV show.
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Post by SheLitAFire on Thu 19 Dec 2019, 5:49 pm

Alright, I'm headed out to see it in an hour. I haven't told my friends that I'm going with that I've read the spoilers lol
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