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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Libra Vibora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:38 pm

@ZioRen wrote:
@Libra Vibora wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:I've quickly checked but not seen it mentioned has anyone seen that JJ apparently confirmed what Finn was going to say to Rey, that he was force sensitive.

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker-finn-force-sensitive.html
@Let The Past Die

I've seen this. This further lowers my opinion of Abrams and adds more fuel to my theory that he crafted TROS to catered to the wants of all portions of the fanbase, especially the segments who were fanatical and violent (OT fanboys, Finn's tumblr fanbase, and antis) . The scene was clearly insinuating that Finn was going to make a love confession, not admitting he's FS. But it's obvious Abrams tried to make the scene ambiguous enough that different factions of Finn's fanbase would feel fed. The FS!Finn fans would be happy that their headcanons weren't just wishful thinking while those who ship Finnrey would happy that their ship got some fodder (even if it was one-sided).
@Libra Vibora

To be fair, I think Force Sensitive Finn was more about catering to John Boyega than to the worst of Finn fans. He clearly wanted that since TFA. And it still feels thrown in considering it doesn't really affect anybody but him or have a bigger place in the story.

What they did to Rose, however, was unforgivable BS. I cannot separate the real life context from that decision and I'm disgusted with it. For all the moping and whining from others, Kelly had the most reason to be upset and she didn't show it whatsoever. She shows up happy, excited, killing it on the red carpet.
@ZioRen

I think FS!Finn was Abrams caving to JB and the worst of Finn's fanbase.

Ugh, don't get me started on what was done to poor Rose/KMT! If any actor deserved to be outraged over their character being done dirty, it's her, but she's been nothing but gracious. Eff J.J. for catering to the pricks who viciously hated on her and Rose.

@special_cases wrote:The video of Q&A with JJ where he was talking about Reylo since TFA was taken down by the person who posted it. Lol, buddy, we know that Kasdan was behind this dynamic and he made it sexual.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 37 Opera_29

https://twitter.com/postedbygaslite/status/1208444711264018433

@special_cases

And just when I thought my respect for Abrams couldn't hit below rock bottom, I learn about this. Either the man is an absolute idiot or idiotic and gaslighting panderer. There were no hints whatsoever for Rey Solo or Skywalker and there were especially no hints that Rey and Kylo were siblings and their dynamic was not romantic. How and why the hell would you insert the possibilities of two characters being romantic or siblings for a family-oriented franchise like Star Wars? Yes, I'm sure that people are going to argue Luke and Leia, but they were originally intended to be endgame, Lucas regrets to this day that accidental incest bilge since it's been a major source of jokes in pop culture, and this day and age of concern over "problematic" fiction, he didn't consider that parents and other folks would be up in arms about siblings having romantic and sexual chemistry in a damn Disney movie? I really regret having faith in this man.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 37 Giphy
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:40 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Hey guys, here's today's reminder that Palpatine had sex. Palpatine f***ed. And not charismatic "human" Palpatine from the prequels, but dead Sith Emperor Palpatine from the OT. He had sex with a woman and conceived a child.
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I did the math in my head and oh lawd you’re correct Shocked
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maybe it was artificial fertilization- that's MY head canon because otherwise L-puke
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YESSS. Palpatine kid was made in a lab in my head canon.
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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:42 pm

@Gemini wrote:@nickandnora

I have no personal qualms with the dude, but I'm not going to be forced into following narrative on the board that choices made with TLJ didnt help mess the trilogy up and that TLJ was this perfect movie that caused no problems with an audience. That's an echo chamber.

Its not his fault I have said this a million times.

@Gemini
Just to be clear, I'm talking writing process and theory right now.

It was not a PERFECT movie, and it did cause problems with some members of the audience, yes. But I think right now it reads as the more coherent film because it really examined what TFA set up and therefore it's more successful as a story. I think if director #3 had used that same process (examined TLJ CLOSELY) and didn't rely on easy ideas, fanservice, etc. (basically if it had served the *story* that was already in place, for better or worse, FIRST) then we wouldn't be where we are right now: with a messy film that pleases no one other than (from my anecdotal observations) mostly disconnected movie goers just looking for some entertainment and possibly some of those toxic fans that no one likes.




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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:43 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
@Gemini wrote:I cant do a thank you card. I'm unhappy with everyone involved in this ST. Lol. But it's a nice gesture to do.

I just wish they had a damn plan and stuck to it.
@Gemini

This is true, BUT a plan wouldn't have been needed if the third writer was someone who had Rian's sensibilities as a creative person.

Setting aside whatever one's personal feelings are about TLJ/Rian for a moment, we have been told that Rian was essentially on J.J.'s a** from the second he started writing the script. He attended TFA filming, looked at the dailies, asked him a million questions. He said he wrote his script specifically to follow from J.J.'s. He practically lived with the story group for a time. I know some people (I believe yourself included) think that TLJ doesn't follow from TFA. But what is see (and I think a lot of other people do here), is that it resoundingly, absolutely DOES and it's because of Rian's dedication to craft.

TROS... does not. What they needed was someone to come in and do exactly what Rian did when following J.J's script. Someone needed to study TLJ, the decisions made, talk to Rian, get his input, consult the story group, etc. Unfortunately they became pressed for time due to a lot of factors but even then. If they just had someone who was willing to honour EVERYTHING that came before it - and honestly so, not the way J.J. is paying lipservice to right now - then a huge overarching plan wouldn't matter.
@nickandnora
Yes, Rian Johnson had immense respect for TFA and the decisions it made. He studied TFA and it shows. But when it came to TROS... nobody had the same respect for Rian. I can't even count on one hand the plot threads TROS takes from TLJ because they are almost nonexistent. Not only that, it directly undermines serious and intriguing themes established by the previous films. I can live with many of the stupid decisions in TROS, a real writer (whether you like TLJ/Rian or not he is a real writer with a voice who pours his soul into what he believes in) being devalued to this extent is heartbreaking for me.

I completely agree with you that "a plan" was not what this trilogy needed. It needed writers who genuinely respected each other and the material that came before, and the most important material is TLJ. It has the most to say, the most character development, the most substance. TFA is an open book. JJ just said Rey's background was not established in the movie, and that makes most of the things people like to claim were "dropped" by TLJ irrelevant. Nothing was dropped. Nothing. Answers were given whether or not fans liked the answers. TROS, on the other hand, dismisses TLJ in the cruelest ways.

By the way when Terrio and Abrams were like "how do we tie up 25 story arcs?" MAKE THEM LITERALLY SPEAK TO REY. Lmao.
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Post by Forsythia on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:44 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Lmfao Rian said he had every intention of redeeming Ben - in fact, he said he deserved more than to just get his "comeuppance" (a.k.a. simply die).
When did Rian say this?
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:45 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Lmfao Rian said he had every intention of redeeming Ben - in fact, he said he deserved more than to just get his "comeuppance" (a.k.a. simply die). I like the way Ben dies in this film as it stands - I don't find it upsetting or overly sad (though don't get me started on no Force ghost). That said, Rian would absolutely have written something more engaging, more nuanced, more interesting, and certainly not a film that mirrors Return of the Jedi almost beat-for-beat.
@FrolickingFizzgig

It is one thing to have the intention of art.. it is another way on how the audiences receive it...

Look at JJ.. I kept my options open for making Rey and Kylo siblings.. but a major portion of the audience "reylos" saw something else.

The fact is that Kylo was offered redemption by Han and Rey and he rejected it both times and a major portion of the audience did not want that revisited again.

Call them whatever you like, anti's, haters, RJ haters, whatever.. not every single person who thought  Kylo did not deserve a third chance is sexist or racist and the truth is that Kylo a white man was not hated for either of those reasons...


Last edited by spacebaby45678 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:46 pm

I personally would like to be able to say I think the Last Jedi sucked and that I think problems raised from that movie helped create problems we see today

And not get my head bitten off.

Are some allowed to dislike TLJ and RJs take and Express it? Or is differing opinion not allowed?


Last edited by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:47 pm

@Libra Vibora wrote:
@ZioRen wrote:
@Libra Vibora wrote:
@Let The Past Die wrote:I've quickly checked but not seen it mentioned has anyone seen that JJ apparently confirmed what Finn was going to say to Rey, that he was force sensitive.

https://www.starwarsnewsnet.com/2019/12/the-rise-of-skywalker-finn-force-sensitive.html
@Let The Past Die

I've seen this. This further lowers my opinion of Abrams and adds more fuel to my theory that he crafted TROS to catered to the wants of all portions of the fanbase, especially the segments who were fanatical and violent (OT fanboys, Finn's tumblr fanbase, and antis) . The scene was clearly insinuating that Finn was going to make a love confession, not admitting he's FS. But it's obvious Abrams tried to make the scene ambiguous enough that different factions of Finn's fanbase would feel fed. The FS!Finn fans would be happy that their headcanons weren't just wishful thinking while those who ship Finnrey would happy that their ship got some fodder (even if it was one-sided).
@Libra Vibora

To be fair, I think Force Sensitive Finn was more about catering to John Boyega than to the worst of Finn fans. He clearly wanted that since TFA. And it still feels thrown in considering it doesn't really affect anybody but him or have a bigger place in the story.

What they did to Rose, however, was unforgivable BS. I cannot separate the real life context from that decision and I'm disgusted with it. For all the moping and whining from others, Kelly had the most reason to be upset and she didn't show it whatsoever. She shows up happy, excited, killing it on the red carpet.
@ZioRen

I think FS!Finn was Abrams caving to JB and the worst of Finn's fanbase.

Ugh, don't get me started on what was done to poor Rose/KMT! If any actor deserved to be outraged over their character being done dirty, it's her, but she's been nothing but gracious. Eff J.J. for catering to the pricks who viciously hated on her and Rose.

@special_cases wrote:The video of Q&A with JJ where he was talking about Reylo since TFA was taken down by the person who posted it. Lol, buddy, we know that Kasdan was behind this dynamic and he made it sexual.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 37 Opera_29

https://twitter.com/postedbygaslite/status/1208444711264018433

@special_cases

And just when I thought my respect for Abrams couldn't hit below rock bottom, I learn about this. Either the man is an absolute idiot or idiotic and gaslighting panderer. There were no hints whatsoever for Rey Solo or Skywalker and there were especially no hints that Rey and Kylo were siblings and their dynamic was not romantic. How and why the hell would you insert the possibilities of two characters being romantic or siblings for a family-oriented franchise like Star Wars? Yes, I'm sure that people are going to argue Luke and Leia, but they were originally intended to be endgame, Lucas regrets to this day that accidental incest bilge since it's been a major source of jokes in pop culture, and this day and age of concern over "problematic" fiction, he didn't consider that parents and other folks would be up in arms about siblings having romantic and sexual chemistry in a damn Disney movie? I really regret having faith in this man.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 37 Giphy
@Libra Vibora
To be clear Larry Kasden 100% created the Reylo dynamic and absolutely wrote it in a specific way. This has been confirmed by multiple sources. None of us was wrong in our reading of TFA, it's just now clear that JJ Abrams didn't have much to do with, well, any of it.
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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:49 pm

@Gemini

I'm not attacking you aggressively and I'm sorry if you are getting that impression. I'm trying to explain why I personally think TLJ works better as a story and what TRoS needed. It's OK if you think some of the blame should be placed at Rian/TLJ's feet, but I think I'm just trying to express why the bigger problem seemed to be the writing process and attitude towards what came before it in terms of the third film.

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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:51 pm

@nickandnora wrote:@Gemini

I'm not attacking you aggressively and I'm sorry if you are getting that impression. I'm trying to explain why I personally think TLJ works better as a story and what TRoS needed. It's OK if you think some of the blame should be placed at Rian/TLJ's feet, but I think I'm just trying to express why the bigger problem seemed to be the writing process and attitude towards what came before it in terms of the third film.
@nickandnora

Its not you I'm talking about.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:51 pm

I guess we reylos should have been violent and abusive, maybe then they would have left Ben live.

The more I find out, the more this is coming across as an expensive fan***k.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:52 pm

The attitude of the writing team going into TROS was shaped in a major way by the audience reception of TLJ, and not every person who did not like TLJ was a racist sexist jerk..

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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:54 pm

@nickandnora wrote:@Gemini

I'm not attacking you aggressively and I'm sorry if you are getting that impression. I'm trying to explain why I personally think TLJ works better as a story and what TRoS needed. It's OK if you think some of the blame should be placed at Rian/TLJ's feet, but I think I'm just trying to express why the bigger problem seemed to be the writing process and attitude towards what came before it in terms of the third film.
@nickandnora
I didn't post that suggestion to thank Rian only because I love TLJ. It was actually a rather impartial recommendation for me. I think Rian Johnson gave a lot of courtesy to JJ's decisions in TFA by his own admission. He was watching TFA as it was being made and writing a script that, in his eyes, would compliment it and follow up on it in the most intriguing ways. Whether or not you like these "ways" is not relevant in my eyes. It's the disrespect toward Rian as a writer/filmmaker that I find unforgivable. Rian has not complained, he has not "dissed" TROS, he has kept his chin up and is a mature and professional and educated person. Do I think he'll be fine? Sure! Does that mean I think he doesn't deserve to be told that there are many people who appreciated him (even people who don't like his film) out there? Nope. It has nothing to do with the film and everything to do with how Rian wrote it and how he has continued to be respectful.
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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:58 pm

@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:
@nickandnora wrote:
@Gemini wrote:I cant do a thank you card. I'm unhappy with everyone involved in this ST. Lol. But it's a nice gesture to do.

I just wish they had a damn plan and stuck to it.
@Gemini

This is true, BUT a plan wouldn't have been needed if the third writer was someone who had Rian's sensibilities as a creative person.

Setting aside whatever one's personal feelings are about TLJ/Rian for a moment, we have been told that Rian was essentially on J.J.'s a** from the second he started writing the script. He attended TFA filming, looked at the dailies, asked him a million questions. He said he wrote his script specifically to follow from J.J.'s. He practically lived with the story group for a time. I know some people (I believe yourself included) think that TLJ doesn't follow from TFA. But what is see (and I think a lot of other people do here), is that it resoundingly, absolutely DOES and it's because of Rian's dedication to craft.

TROS... does not. What they needed was someone to come in and do exactly what Rian did when following J.J's script. Someone needed to study TLJ, the decisions made, talk to Rian, get his input, consult the story group, etc. Unfortunately they became pressed for time due to a lot of factors but even then. If they just had someone who was willing to honour EVERYTHING that came before it - and honestly so, not the way J.J. is paying lipservice to right now - then a huge overarching plan wouldn't matter.
@nickandnora
Yes, Rian Johnson had immense respect for TFA and the decisions it made. He studied TFA and it shows. But when it came to TROS... nobody had the same respect for Rian. I can't even count on one hand the plot threads TROS takes from TLJ because they are almost nonexistent. Not only that, it directly undermines serious and intriguing themes established by the previous films. I can live with many of the stupid decisions in TROS, a real writer (whether you like TLJ/Rian or not he is a real writer with a voice who pours his soul into what he believes in) being devalued to this extent is heartbreaking for me.

I completely agree with you that "a plan" was not what this trilogy needed. It needed writers who genuinely respected each other and the material that came before, and the most important material is TLJ. It has the most to say, the most character development, the most substance. TFA is an open book. JJ just said Rey's background was not established in the movie, and that makes most of the things people like to claim were "dropped" by TLJ irrelevant. Nothing was dropped. Nothing. Answers were given whether or not fans liked the answers. TROS, on the other hand, dismisses TLJ in the cruelest ways.

By the way when Terrio and Abrams were like "how do we tie up 25 story arcs?" MAKE THEM LITERALLY SPEAK TO REY. Lmao.
@FrolickingFizzgig

Also, I know that no one is really making this argument, but I don't think think Colin Trevorrow would have been the person to study TLJ carefully and make a thoughtful follow up either, lol. As it turns out, the third act of this story was essentially screwed from the beginning.

I am probably going to go see it a second time this week with my husband, and I'm very curious as to my thoughts. As I said, I didn't hate it, and if I was the kind of person who just comes out of a theater with only my most cursory feelings (in this case, "I guess it was pretty OK!") on a story that I've been pretty deeply involved in, that would pretty much be the end of it. So I'm curious to know if I'm going to like it more or less the second time. Also curious as to whether I will watch it repeatedly at home the way I did with TFA and TLJ.

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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 1:59 pm

Oh no.. I think RJ threw out JJ's ideas and refused to explain them.

Luke's epic moment?
Snoke ( who and were did this big bad come from )
Rey ( who is she ) sibiling or related
Finn ( force sensitive or not )

Nothing JJ set up mattered to RJ.. and JJ gave the same to him right back.. just listen to the reviews out there..
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Post by Reylo Lemon on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:00 pm

I just wanted to write that this movie is a mess. I wish babu frik could erase my memory of it. Thank goodness we had the kiss T_T
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Post by special_cases on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:03 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I guess we reylos should have been violent and abusive, maybe then they would have left Ben live.

The more I find out, the more this is coming across as an expensive fan***k.
@motherofpearl1

You're absolutely right and this is the most scary thought here. Apparently you're getting the story that you believe was promised only by bullying LF and screaming that they should cater to your tastes.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:08 pm

I think it’s clear now that bringing back Palpatine and making Rey a Palpatine in the last film of the trilogy is one of the worst decisions in SW ever. Even ignoring the thematic stuff, because these developments are all stuffed in one film it has to spend time on exposition that should have been spent on characters and their relationships. If they were going to do it at all it should have been spread across two films at least. Remember when we all lived in a nice simple world where all Episode IX had to resolve was the Resistance vs First Order and Rey/Kylo dynamic?

I can see why they did this of course, it’s much harder to write a redemption arc when there’s no third wheel character whose pure evil can contrast with the more conflicted antagonist. I really love Rian’s choice to kill off Snoke but I don’t know if he actually had any ideas himself on how to continue the story after that. But surely there could have been better options than zombie!Palpatine? I don’t know, do something with the Knights of Ren, make them force-sensitive and give them a scary psychotic leader, they can conspire with Hux to take Kylo down or something. But nooooo they had to shoehorn in an old villain who has no place in the story they’ve been telling so far.
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Post by Libra Vibora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:10 pm

@Mila95 wrote:
@special_cases wrote:@Mila95 "Siblings possibility" is very funny because Rachel's role was open to all races and the second actress who was close to getting this role was not white. I guess JJ did want make Han a cheater lol!
@special_cases

They absolutely weren't making her a Solo or Skywalker, they can lie all the want now to keep pander to the Rian ruined JJ's ideas crowd that the whole movie is dedicated to anyway. I do believe he wanted Palpatine tho and that was an option from the start and then Rian didn't go with it but he shoehorned it in. I also think it's possible random is what they truly wanted but kept it open in case it got a bad reaction like it did.
@Mila95

Yeah, I'm not buying that they were making Rey a Solo or Skywalker, either. They were clearly angling for her to be the child of a legacy character, but I doubt Skywalker or Solo were options. I suspect either that Rey Kenobi or Rey Palpatine were on the table, but Rian flubbed things up for them with his Rey Nobody reveal and they weren't happy with the decision and incredibly blindsided by it. Don't get me wrong: this isn't me disparaging Rian or hating on Rey Nobody. I like the Rey Nobody reveal, but I can easily see Abrams and Terrio being absolutely stunned as to how to work with Rey Nobody since they think organic conflict can only be produced by Rey being attached some type of legacy.

Now as for Rey Palpatine, I actually like the idea on paper and think a beautiful message could've come from the concept, such as how anyone can be a hero, including one who comes a family with a tainted legacy such as Palpatine's. Rey Palpatine could also serve as poetic symmetry: a Palpatine brought a Skywalker to the darkside, but now the new generation of Palpatine is bringing a Skywalker back into the light. And you could have Rey dealing with her anger and loneliness and in lieu of discovering her lineage, fear she's giving in to the "evil" of her family line and even give in a little to her inner darkness because she feels it's inevitable due to her "evil genes" until she's pulled back by Ben and her friends.  

But alas, Abrams is gonna Abrams. :/
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Post by special_cases on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:11 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:Oh no.. I think RJ threw out JJ's ideas and refused to explain them.

Luke's epic moment?
Snoke ( who and were did this big bad come from )
Rey ( who is she ) sibiling or related
Finn ( force sensitive or not )

Nothing JJ set up mattered to RJ.. and JJ gave the same to him right back.. just listen to the reviews out there..
@spacebaby45678

I'm sorry but do you purposefully ignore full statements from JJ just to justify your headcanon that RJ is responsible for everything you dislike? JJ just said that he left open possibilities to other writers to follow. What is not clear here? This is the OPPOSITE of set up. Rian Johnson didn't threw any major ideas. JJ is self-proclaimed patron of mystery box and he literally SAID THAT HE WANTED OTHER WRITERS TO CHOSE. If you believe that Rey wanted to make related, lol, then he always wanted to make you Palpatine, and not Kenobi. Like he did in the last movie.
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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:17 pm

@Saracene

I don’t know, do something with the Knights of Ren, make them force-sensitive and give them a scary psychotic leader, they can conspire with Hux to take Kylo down or something.
This is precisely what I think that Rian had in mind, and in fact I would BET on it. Hux was going to be a major factor; he would have found a way to get around Kylo's massive force proclivities and the KoR were the way to do it.

PS. I personally don't have a problem with bringing Palpatine back. There were a lot of ways to do justice to it, even within the script they had (I speculated about a million nuances that would have made it work better, if I do say so myself, lol.) They just had no eye for/patience for details and the editing was bonkers, as it turns out.


Last edited by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:19 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by rey09 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:18 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:Oh no.. I think RJ threw out JJ's ideas and refused to explain them.

Luke's epic moment?
Snoke ( who and were did this big bad come from )
Rey ( who is she ) sibiling or related
Finn ( force sensitive or not )

Nothing JJ set up mattered to RJ.. and JJ gave the same to him right back.. just listen to the reviews out there..
@spacebaby45678

I don't get why that's RJ's fault? Couldn't JJ and disney have figured this out before too? JJ intentionally dropped open ended issues without having any idea himself and when RJ makes a decision for himself he's the bad guy?

@Night Huntress wrote:so, I'm watching the reaction/reviews from Star Wars fans who didn't like the TLJ and aren't Reylos just to see if I'm biased because I'm a Reylo/Bendemptionist and wanted a more happy ending for Rey & Kylo (or more from their arc in general)

most of them didn't like the movie either- some found it enjoyable if you want to watch a popcorn blockbuster like Transformers. No Plot just action and shallow characters. The most used word to describe it was a mess.

I watched a video of one anti-reylo and she tore JJ to shreds. Absolutely hated it lol for many reasons.

Lol f*** JJ. He's horrible. He has no convictions. Just a dumb fanboy at heart. God it makes it more painful knowing the ppl at the helm are so clueless. They are only around for blockbuster money. Gross. And I think the biggest evidence out of everything is the fact that Rose was cut out. They could have easily had Rose part of the gang, they didn't need a "trio." And It would have been so much better with Rose in it, the dynamic might have actually worked.

It's absolutely NOT Rian's fault. As someone said, disney had no plans

And I've seen just as many ppl love the idea of Rey Nobody. Rey Palpatine is a cool idea but implemented wrong. But no doubt, Rey Nobody has the greatest message. But hey they weren't thinking about message. They only cared about doing big cool things.

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Post by MindAndMagic on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:19 pm

Honestly, I just wish RJ had written and directed the whole trilogy. We wouldn't have ended up with this mess if that was the case. As much as I acknowledge JJ's great casting instincts, it's becoming clear to me he didn't really have a clear idea of what he was doing with these characters and didn't realise the potential they had. It was people around him like L Kasdan who were more in tune with the compelling aspects of those dynamics, particularly Rey and Ben.

Say what you want about RJ, the choices he made in TLJ may not appeal to everyone's taste and that's only natural. But one thing that is undeniable is that this person had creative vision. He knew what he wanted and where he was going. Thus we got a film that stood out, made you think, had nuanced characterizations/interactions and unique visual style. I will never stop respecting that. We got the best Rey/Kylo moments (especially the hand touch scene, which is my favourite ST trilogy moment) under his direction and I'll always be thankful for those. He never tried to appeal to any fanbase or even worse, try to please everybody by ticking items off a nostalgia checklist. Even more importantly, he handled the controversy surrounding his own film with grace and always showed respect towards everyone he worked with. I'm seeing Knives Out tomorrow and based on what I've heard, will surely enjoy myself.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:22 pm

@special_cases wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:Oh no.. I think RJ threw out JJ's ideas and refused to explain them.

Luke's epic moment?
Snoke ( who and were did this big bad come from )
Rey ( who is she ) sibiling or related
Finn ( force sensitive or not )

Nothing JJ set up mattered to RJ.. and JJ gave the same to him right back.. just listen to the reviews out there..
@spacebaby45678

I'm sorry but do you purposefully ignore full statements from JJ just to justify your headcanon that RJ is responsible for everything you dislike? JJ just said that he left open possibilities to other writers to follow. What is not clear here? This is the OPPOSITE of set up. Rian Johnson didn't threw any major ideas. JJ is self-proclaimed patron of mystery box and he literally SAID THAT HE WANTED OTHER WRITERS TO CHOSE. If you believe that Rey wanted to make related, lol, then he always wanted to make you Palpatine, and not Kenobi. Like he did in the last movie.
@special_cases

JJ said he had gut instincts about where it should go. He said RJ did not follow up on them and went in a totally different direction. He then said after TLJ he was stressed by the lack of planning (not from RJ) but by Disney and the lack of a plan and allowing directors to have different takes.

He then took it in another direction as well. Bad idea.

I just cant buy the yarn spinning of RJs take being a good idea in the middle of a trilogy

I cant say it was good for not following some threads laid before. It was a bad idea that Disney did not stop the free reign, even with JJ and TROS and yes Rian Johnson as well. Sorry.


Disney truly, truly f**** up with allowing free reign with everyone when it was meant to be one story across 3 movies


I'm sorry  I just want a cohesive story

Had RJ done all 3, it would be fine

I have no problem with his creative vision. I have a problem with it disrupting he story and taking it in a totally different directions.

I have problems with lack of control and planning when it comes to a trilogy which is supposed to be one story. Not a beginning, wild left turn and then a wild right turn. Its BS


Last edited by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:25 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:22 pm

@special_cases wrote:
@spacebaby45678 wrote:Oh no.. I think RJ threw out JJ's ideas and refused to explain them.

Luke's epic moment?
Snoke ( who and were did this big bad come from )
Rey ( who is she ) sibiling or related
Finn ( force sensitive or not )

Nothing JJ set up mattered to RJ.. and JJ gave the same to him right back.. just listen to the reviews out there..
@spacebaby45678

I'm sorry but do you purposefully ignore full statements from JJ just to justify your headcanon that RJ is responsible for everything you dislike? JJ just said that he left open possibilities to other writers to follow. What is not clear here? This is the OPPOSITE of set up. Rian Johnson didn't threw any major ideas. JJ is self-proclaimed patron of mystery box and he literally SAID THAT HE WANTED OTHER WRITERS TO CHOSE. If you believe that Rey wanted to make related, lol, then he always wanted to make you Palpatine, and not Kenobi. Like he did in the last movie.
@special_cases
This. JJ has made it very clear that he wanted TFA to be as open as possible and he had no idea that he would be contacted to write the last film. He WANTED Rian to choose where to go. He has said so countless times. He wasn't hired to write a whole story that Rian randomly trashed - Rian actually addresses most of TFA's mysteries and decisions whether you like the way it handles them or not. It also seems as though Rey Palpatine was probably always JJ's fan favourite from the beginning. Rey is a Palpatine because (as JJ/Terrio said) they wanted her to have present conflict with the villain, and that villain, in their minds, had to be Emperor Palpatine even if he had to be resurrected via some of the dumbest and most laughable decisions in all of SW.

Rian, on the other hand, is on record for saying that he wanted to create a "mess" for the next writer. What did JJ do with that mess? He covered it up with his own far more disastrous mess and then skipped around telling people that he was honouring TLJ, that he appreciated Rian's casting in Kelly Marie Tran, that he could NEVER cave to the toxic and vitriolic fans, etc. ad infinitum. Defending JJ while disregarding real things that he has said in order to throw Rian Johnson under the bus again for "Rey Random" is just... I have no words.


Last edited by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 2:26 pm; edited 1 time in total
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