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Rey Kenobi Postmortem

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Post by Saracene on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 6:31 am

I didn’t think that TLJ resolved the Luke/Kylo conflict satisfactorily, but in my naivety I thought that the last movie would continue that thread and give Luke an opportunity to act like a real uncle and teacher to Ben. What fool I was.

Without this proper resolution there’s something lacking about Luke’s ending in TLJ. His self-exile happened because of a very personal failure that was all about the family and one specific person. You can’t really resolve that by having Luke save the Resistance and pass on the Jedi mantle onto a complete outsider. Yes he said sorry to Ben, but it was a sorry in the middle of stalling tactics.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 6:57 am

@Saracene wrote:I didn’t think that TLJ resolved the Luke/Kylo conflict satisfactorily, but in my naivety I thought that the last movie would continue that thread and give Luke an opportunity to act like a real uncle and teacher to Ben. What fool I was.
@Saracene

The last movie should have followed on from RJs story simply for the coherency. I hate JJ for adding new nonsense last minute. What a mess. I do feel that theres no way JJ would match the tone of TLJ, its all about a directors style,  if dark nihilism isnt JJs style  he wouldn't be able to do it. Its the same for RJ, the upbeat, cheesy, traditional story telling is not his style. In that sense I dont blame him for not doing it I guess. Same with JJ, if its not his style, he shouldn't be pushed into continuing it.

Again, this is why i worried about multiple directors. I knew it would feel like 3 different films. 7 and 9 are similar, 8 is the odd ball. 9 is bad though, possibly the worst of the 3 IMO.

With 9, there was room to develop Rey, as RJ had said he deliberately left her identity open for the next director. JJ could have expanded on random or added a more satisfying lineage and at least created a story which works with 7 and 8, but nope. He went in another wild direction. The aesthetics are the same as 7, but the character development.. good god.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:06 am

also  neither director cared to answer the vision sequence or even continue that..
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Post by vaderito on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:23 am

@Gemini wrote:also  neither director cared to answer the vision sequence or even continue that..
@Gemini

to resolve it one needed to know what it was about anyway. since JJ just went with random images without any idea what they meant or maybe no completely clueless but nothing concrete for the future, no wonder it was brushed off. Shame casue fans came up with some really great theories. Remember left = past, right = future, back = past, front = future and whether the tall thing in the background of KoR was the Ahch-to tree? Good times before everything came crashing down.

@Saracene There's lacking to Luke story because it was meant to go further in the next movie or movies. It's hard to imagine that, after TFA success, they wanted to stop at only 3. And TLJ is explicit with "see you around, kid". But that's the downside of giving movies to 3 different writers (less so directors) and without having someone who would hold it all together (Story Group had no authority to tell writers and directors what to do so that was just wasted paychecks). Everyone kept or discarded what they liked/disliked whether there was basic continuity or not.

I do suspect that Luke got a shaft in TROS cause Mark was too vocal about his disagreement with TLJ and LFL figured that he was a liability as a voice of dissention. That way, they had an excuse not to invite him to every TROS promo event. And they also had a really stupid faith in the trio despite numerous evidence to the contrary.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:31 am

JJ knew that Lucas/Arndt set up Rey Kenobi...

IT IS LUKE SKYWALKER.

         Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness
         in his eyes, but there's something tortured, too. He doesn't
         need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His
         look says it all.


         In response, Rey pulls something from the pack.

         LUKE'S LIGHTSABER.
         And she holds it out to him. An offer. A plea. The galaxy's
         only hope.

         HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER'S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and
         conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise
         of an adventure, just beginning...

                       

                       

                         THE END


Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 7 Giphy


Now we know that Rey Solo/Skywalker/Palpatine/Nobody.... was NOT being considered when these lines where written... Who she is.. Is Rey Kenobi... Kenobi is the HERALD for the Skywalkers... that is why Kylo was feeling the pull to the light when REY awakened...on JAKKU



Last edited by spacebaby45678 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:40 am; edited 2 times in total
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Post by Gemini on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:36 am

@vaderito wrote:
@Gemini wrote:also  neither director cared to answer the vision sequence or even continue that..
@Gemini

to resolve it one needed to know what it was about anyway. since JJ just went with random images without any idea what they meant or maybe no completely clueless but nothing concrete for the future, no wonder it was brushed off. Shame casue fans came up with some really great theories. Remember left = past, right = future, back = past, front = future and whether the tall thing in the background of KoR was the Ahch-to tree? Good times before everything came crashing down.

@Saracene There's lacking to Luke story because it was meant to go further in the next movie or movies. It's hard to imagine that, after TFA success, they wanted to stop at only 3. And TLJ is explicit with "see you around, kid". But that's the downside of giving movies to 3 different writers (less so directors) and without having someone who would hold it all together (Story Group had no authority to tell writers and directors what to do so that was just wasted paychecks). Everyone kept or discarded what they liked/disliked whether there was basic continuity or not.

I do suspect that Luke got a shaft in TROS cause Mark was too vocal about his disagreement with TLJ and LFL figured that he was a liability as a voice of dissention. That way, they had an excuse not to invite him to every TROS promo event. And they also had a really stupid faith in the trio despite numerous evidence to the contrary.
@vaderito
He did originally have something in there which made it make sense though, but he removed it in the final version,
It was there  in the teaser trailer. It later became some shell of what it was as Leias saber.

I'm waiting for the info to come out about that second saber and its true original concept and origins soon, hopefully.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:48 am

Everything we know about the vision from Brandon, MSW and the old script is that it was heavily Ben focused. Script/MSW version had Han and Leia drop Ben to Luke. Brandon talked about a young boy with Snoke. So it seems that early on, they wanted it to be Ben-centric which makes sense given his and Rey connection later. But then they decided against it and went with context-less mishmash of past and future events that didn't really amount to anything. So if I cna make an educated guess, the stop was put every time they gave Ben Solo more attention.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 7:49 am

@spacebaby45678 wrote:JJ knew that Lucas/Arndt set up Rey Kenobi...

IT IS LUKE SKYWALKER.

         Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness
         in his eyes, but there's something tortured, too. He doesn't
         need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His
         look says it all.


         In response, Rey pulls something from the pack.

         LUKE'S LIGHTSABER.
         And she holds it out to him. An offer. A plea. The galaxy's
         only hope.

         HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER'S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and
         conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise
         of an adventure, just beginning...

                       

                       

                         THE END


Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 7 Giphy


Now we know that Rey Solo/Skywalker/Palpatine/Nobody.... was NOT being considered when these lines where written... Who she is.. Is Rey Kenobi... Kenobi is the HERALD for the Skywalkers... that is why Kylo was feeling the pull to the light when REY awakened...on JAKKU

@spacebaby45678

Yep the official script strongly suggests Rey Kenobi.

Lukes internal thoughts herre: "A palpatine wants me to save the galaxy! By handing me my father's light saber, like he did all those years ago."

"Leia knew she was a palpatine and hugged her and sent her to me, of course it had to be a palpatine and not Leia who came to me with the same saber Obi Wan once handed to me!"

Also, if she was not a kenobi there, and instead a random he would need to ask her and would not understand. Which is what he does when  she suddenly became a random in 8.

If she was a palpatine here, he would need to ask her what the hell she is doing there too and would not understand.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 8:03 am

This! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ all of this... we have new information ( that Rey was going to be a Kenobi) and with that new information you have to back and look at everything with fresh eyes...


@vaderito

Yes.. Rey Kenobi leaves Ben Solo's original story intact
Didn't Pablo point out that the focus on Harrison Ford and Han Solo caused the new characters to get short changed?
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Post by Gemini on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 8:08 am

I always felt it was meant to be a joint importance. A joint vision.

Hence why Rey Kenobi would have ensured Ben's survival and a final merging of the two. A poetic end. Not a tragedy that Palpatine brings and not Rey stealing the focus as "im a random, dont need connection to anyone and have it all.

Rey random, IMO would not have ended up with Ben Solo. They were pushing her being strong and independent and more importantly single as a woman with Rey Random.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 9:01 am

At the end of the day I wonder if they ever should have bothered making the sequels. Star Wars has to have the most hardest to please fanbase in history.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 9:07 am

They should have never made them without George.... El Rey Leon...I am never letting this go....

Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 7 Original

Kenobi's heart lives in Rey not 1000 Jedi  Evil or Very Mad
Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 7 IqutiZd
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 9:28 am

@Saracene wrote:I didn’t think that TLJ resolved the Luke/Kylo conflict satisfactorily, but in my naivety I thought that the last movie would continue that thread and give Luke an opportunity to act like a real uncle and teacher to Ben. What fool I was.

Without this proper resolution there’s something lacking about Luke’s ending in TLJ. His self-exile happened because of a very personal failure that was all about the family and one specific person. You can’t really resolve that by having Luke save the Resistance and pass on the Jedi mantle onto a complete outsider. Yes he said sorry to Ben, but it was a sorry in the middle of stalling tactics.
@Saracene

"See you around, kid."
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Post by Saracene on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 3:58 pm

@Gemini wrote:I always felt it was meant to be a joint importance. A joint vision.

Hence why Rey Kenobi would have ensured Ben's survival and a final merging of the two. A poetic end. Not a tragedy that Palpatine brings and not Rey stealing the focus as "im a random, dont need connection to anyone and have it all.

Rey random, IMO would not have ended up with Ben Solo. They were pushing her being strong and independent  and more importantly  single as a woman with Rey Random.
@Gemini

It’s just a hunch, but in the end I think that JJ didn’t go with Rey Kenobi because being related to a supporting character, even an important one, gives Rey a decidedly secondary importance in the story compared to Ben, and that just wouldn’t do. Rey Kenobi would have no reason to call herself Rey Skywalker in the end, since there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the Kenobi heritage. And TRoS really really really wanted to make Rey the centre of the story, as opposed to helper for the Skywalkers.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 26 Sep 2020, 4:17 pm

I think JJ hated the Skywalkers.
Why else would he kill them all off?
Unfortunately his so called 'heroine' wasn't a patch on them.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 6:42 am

@Saracene wrote:
@Gemini wrote:I always felt it was meant to be a joint importance. A joint vision.

Hence why Rey Kenobi would have ensured Ben's survival and a final merging of the two. A poetic end. Not a tragedy that Palpatine brings and not Rey stealing the focus as "im a random, dont need connection to anyone and have it all.

Rey random, IMO would not have ended up with Ben Solo. They were pushing her being strong and independent  and more importantly  single as a woman with Rey Random.
@Gemini

It’s just a hunch, but in the end I think that JJ didn’t go with Rey Kenobi because being related to a supporting character, even an important one, gives Rey a decidedly secondary importance in the story compared to Ben, and that just wouldn’t do. Rey Kenobi would have no reason to call herself Rey Skywalker in the end, since there’s absolutely nothing wrong with the Kenobi heritage. And TRoS really really really wanted to make Rey the centre of the story, as opposed to helper for the Skywalkers.
@Saracene

If you are correct then JJ's weakness is he never paid enough attention to the Prequels... ( which seems to be a common accusation among the general fandom) he missed the fact that George elevated Obi Wan to a deuteragonist. That elevations starts with TPM... Georges mythology becomes MORE sophisticated ,archetypal and ancient.. the battle between light and dark.. the push and pull of darkness and light.. once you make Rey a Skywalker nee Palpatine coated in Kenobi parallels .. the metaphor breaks apart... With all the real Skywalkers dead the myth is dead...

The Nhilism of Hollywood is rank...
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 10:09 am

And for me that is the real crime of TROS. That film has completely destroyed the entire SW saga from TPM onwards. Yes, there are other characters, other stories, such as Rebels and KOTOR. But let's face it, they are just spin offs. The most popular SW character is Han Solo, who's an honorary Skywalker both because of his marriage to Leia and his brotherly bond to Luke.
I now find it impossible to enjoy anything remotely connected to SW. Every time I think of it, I see that smug, grinning parody of Rey, standing in the ruins of Luke's childhood home on Tattooine. Rey with her Palpatine blood. It's supposed to mean that the Skywalker name will never die, but by making her a Palpatine all it does is show the enemy's descendant standing in the ruins of the hero's home. A home destroyed by her grandfather.
I haven't got rid of my SW memorablia yet, but I've put most of it in storage. I wonder if I'll ever be able to watch the films, including the OT, ever again. The sequels were supposed to bring the story of the heroes to a satisfying conclusion. Instead, it's just JJ and DLF saying that they can do better than Lucas by erasing his first family and replacing them with Satan's granddaughter.
Ironically for all their supposed 'lurve' for the Twins Abrams and Terrio have tainted Leia and Luke as characters forever, by making them an appalling mother and uncle who happily forgot their blood heir to replace him with a virginal, untainted substitute. This is an appalling example for real life abuse victims who identified with and loved Ben Solo. I wonder what Carrie would have thought of that.

I'm currently shipping the enemies to lovers 'maybe' trope in Netflix's Cursed, but honestly.....I am so burned by what happened to reylo I'm not expecting anything big in that department for fear of disappointment. Never in a million years did I think that the franchise that helped me through some bad times would end up making me depressed. The only good thing to come out of the entire lot is Adam Driver deservedly becoming a megastar. Even Mando has lost its appeal for me now. Sad Evil or Very Mad Crying or Very sad
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Post by fuhry on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 12:03 pm

Hi y'all - it's been a while and I missed the most recent hubbub.

In hindsight, having binge-watched J.J. Abrams "Lost" many years ago, the outcome of the ST is thoroughly predictable. I had high hopes that J.J. could change his stripes, but the extent to which he failed with TROS is mind blowing and I'm still not over it. In my mind, I just can't think of TROS as canon.

In a sense, having J.J. do TFA was genius, because he is great at introducing characters in fascinating, mysterious situations. They had a hard time coming up with a script for that movie, but because it was the first in a trilogy, having fascinating, mysterious situations, Kasdan scripting, and John Williams music was enough. There's no way to be sure what the plan was for Rey's lineage but watching the movie, it does seem like there was a plan and then a revision of that plan. In fact, I think J.J. said that the decision to leave her lineage reveal out of TFA was made during production.

Thinking of it this way, it is very difficult to come up with a script for the next episode, which, because of the 2 year release timeline, had to be written before the previous movie was even released. I had my problems with TLJ - I didn't like the lightsaber toss and the goofy comedic aspects of it (though those are clearly ROTJ/TPM type of beats, so I understand). There were other things, but I think Rian advanced the characters' stories in ways that made sense. He didn't fully commit himself to resolving J.J.'s mysteries though, particularly Rey's vision, the Knights of Ren, and how she came to awaken in the force. But to say that he 'undid' J.J.'s "story" is kind of silly. What story? It's just a bunch of hints that don't fit together. Rian sort of suggested she was a nobody, and, in retrospect, included a force vision with basically nothing in it... lol.... but it was a pretty soft reveal because it was Kylo telling her that, and Kylo's motivations were suspect. Even Rian said the door was still open on her background.

There was very little that TLJ did that prevented J.J. from continuing his "story", and he's even said as much. If J.J.'s story was "Rey Kenobi", he could have told that story. If J.J.'s story had some kind of role for the Knights of Ren, he could have put it in TROS. Rey Kenobi antis always claimed that a Rey Kenobi reveal would be too complex and clunky and hard to explain. But J.J.'s Palpatine reveal was about as complex and clunky as it could be, and was barely explained.

The only possible aspect that Rian's story could have cock-blocked is Rey being Luke's long lost daughter.

The people that work with J.J. are loyal to him, and he's not without talent. But come on. J.J. HAD NO STORY. He did what he does, he plopped some cool, evocative stuff on the screen and created some cool characters. Rian didn't even try to explain Rey's vision, but when J.J. had the chance to, he decided instead to give Poe a backstory so he could be more scoundrel-y. WTF? It's a shitshow.

My deduction remains that J.J.'s thought in TFA was that Rey was Luke's daughter. Rian took one look at the dailies for the bridal carry and the Kylo/Rey interrogation scene and he saw a fascinating romance angle, which was way more interesting than anything Luke's daughter could have accomplished for the story. And I think Rian may have asked him not to reveal her lineage for that reason.

But for J.J. (and a lot of fans, myself included) having Rey be Rey nobody was unsatisfying. So I think that's when he toyed around with Rey Kenobi... and I think midway through the rushed production for TROS he and Terrio decided they didn't like the Rey Kenobi idea so they shoehorned Rey Palpatine in.

I just don't think J.J. comes up with good stories. Rian did a good job, but given the quick timeline, resolving everything in IX was a very tough job. Trevorrow wasn't up to it. J.J. wasn't up to it. Rian could have done it. Dave Filoni could have done it, but he had no experience in live action. I have my own headcanon scripts in which I try to tie everything together. The first I wrote before TROS. The second I wrote after, and it includes TROS locations and characters, including Palpatine returning. I like the second one better, but it's taken me almost a year to figure out how to tie all these pieces together. I've always been a Rey Kenobist but in my script her backstory that she is the product of Palpatine's hybrid cloning program where he tried to create a force sensitive apprentice. Suffice it to say she ends up with three lineages, one of which is Palpatine's - but one of which is Kenobi's. She is the only successful outcome of the program and upon the Emperor's (apparent) death, she is to be frozen in Carbonite and transported to the unknown regions, however the ship she is on crashes on Jakku. Years later, she is thawed.


To me that made the most sense given the convoluted Rey origin message of the first two movies. I have my headcanon to make me feel a little better but dang, Star Wars does feel kind of ruined now.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 12:11 pm

Your headcanon works far better than the Censored they gave us.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 12:37 pm

@fuhry




I think the damage that TLJ did... "slowing momentum, overall confusion" fanboy backlash .. my guess and humble opinion is that Rey Palpatine was an over reach... in other words JJ needed to gin up interest in TROS and deliver that BILLION dollar block buster weekend he through the "accident" against the wall..

I don't think Rey Kenobi was "JJ's story" ... it was George Lucas's story and the remnants of such is why Arndt got writing credit for TFA...

Rey Kenob-ish concept art existed before JJ was ever hired and before LF was sold to Disney...Also the casting calls for Rey Kenobi's granddaughter where before JJ completed rewrites to the script for TFA... so it was a pre existing idea
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Post by vaderito on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 4:16 pm

Yes I remember Kenobi granddaughter casting call.
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Post by Saracene on Sun 27 Sep 2020, 4:42 pm

I agree that the perceived lack of hook for the last film was a big factor in JJ dragging Palpatine back into the story.

I just think that Rian made a huge mistake when he elevated the Resistance from the background to this central thing that the audience were supposed to care about. Finn’s arc revolves around becoming ideologically committed to the Resistance, Poe’s arc is about becoming a better leader for the Resistance, even Rey seems to care more about the Resistance than her actual friends as individuals. People really enjoyed Rey/Finn and Finn/Poe in TFA, but TLJ basically did nothing with these relationships and just replaced them with the Cause. Problem was, the audience just didn’t care about the Resistance and didn’t get invested in wanting to see them win in the last film. And ironically the most-liked aspect of the movie was about an interesting personal relationship that had nothing to do with the Cause.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:21 am

There was no relationship to be replaced by the cause. These characters just met and instantly got along. That's not a relationship but a dead end. TLJ gave them the Cause which sucked. TROS brought them back to getting along and talking over each other that sucked harder. They shouldn't have been in the movies, period. Separate from movies like a D+ show sure (there are 2 characters, a rebel and a storm trooper, they meet and have adventure on weekly basis) but it didn't work in ST where they were a filler.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:32 am

One thing Rian did which I liked was he showed the Resistance as less than perfect. They bought their weapons from the same arms dealers as the FO. This could have been expanded on in TROS, but no. It was back to the black hats, white hats again. The idea that the heroes are perfect, the villains 100% evil is pretty old fashioned these days and TLJ for me showed the potential for a grittier, more topical version of SW that was touched on with R1. The weird thing is, I didn't like the ST Resistance much. Whereas in the OT the Empire were clearly the bad guys, the Rebels the good, the ST version of the Rebellion came across as dull, and a little bit sanctimonious. And I really didn't like how in the spin off comics Rey referred to them as the Cause - it made her sound like a terrorist and fanatic.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:55 am

Except that in the end, TLJ returns to the status quo and portrays the Resistance as "unreservedly good people" with glimpses of "boys will be boys" (throwing the tension between Holdo and Poe in the garbage). One of the main reasons I dislike TLJ is that it presents bold/edgy ideas at first, but in the end doesn't do anything with it. Which if I would guess, is why a lot of people have a problem with the movie but can't properly articulate it.
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