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Rey Kenobi Postmortem

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Post by fuhry on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 9:56 am

@Saracene I don't think that Rian's big mistake in TLJ was that he elevated the Resistance - I mean, it IS "Star Wars" - without the Resistance, what happens to the war? I do think he made some little mistakes, though. I think that having the Resistance be completely decimated down to a few people in the Millennium Falcon was a strange choice. There are other little things. But if I could think of one thing, it's choosing to subvert the whole mystery box about Rey's origin that was quite clearly established (perhaps inadvertently) in TFA.

Don't get me wrong - I absolutely think that in the real world, having famous and/or accomplished parents and grandparents should not be any prerequisite for success and impact and talent. But this is a generational 9 part family saga that spans like 60 years. I know a lot of us really like the Rey Nobody idea - Rian certainly did. Rey didn't necessarily need a blood relation to a saga character but she needed some connection to the events of episodes 1-6, just to create enough drama. I think that was the original GL / Arndt intention with her character, I think that clearly came across in TFA (Though the particulars were totally fuzzy). I feel like Rian sort of subverted it, but also kept it fuzzy. It just made for a weird movie when it comes to Rey.

But, though I spent two years of my life irritated by that, after TROS, TLJ is the least of my problems. TROS decided to connect her to the larger saga, which was a difficult thing to do in one film. Faced with this difficult task, they decided to short arm it by having Kylo of all people explain it. And this reveal so pales in comparison to the 'I am your father' reveal that it's comical. Luke already thinks of Vader as his enemy when he learns, from Vader, that Vader is his dad. Rey learns, from the guy that she kind of has a thing for but who tried to steal her lightsaber and let her friends die, that she's related to some old Emperor she's never met. So they could make room for some weird tale of Sith daggers and holocrons and Poe and his old spice running squad. And so they could make use of their precious precious Leia footage.

It's so ridiculously bad that I feel I have to apologize to Rian for ever bad mouthing TLJ.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 10:26 am

And I wonder why that is.
I remember at the end of the tie in novel, I was genuinely startled how Rey seemed to change....her compassion for Ben disappeared and it stated very plainly that she allowed him to live purely because 'the Force willed it'. Gone was the impulsive young woman who wanted to save him. Then I read somewhere that Jason Fry had had to leave the ending of the novel deliberately ambiguous so it wouldn't affect whoever came after Rian. I have a feeling the same thing happened with the film - Rian said himself Colin Trevorrow asked him for a 'flirty' scene between Poe and Rey as he wanted to make them a couple in DOTF. I wonder if either CT or DLF wanted the Resistance depicted as uber good guys at the end.

A lot of people think that it was a mistake having three different directors but they did with the OT and it didn't matter. This was because Lucas was the driving force behind the entire trilogy. And that was what was missing from the ST.
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 10:56 am

Yeah, part of why I believe the end of TLJ is so "blah" is because the studio demanded a sort of open-ended finale so the next director could do whatever they wanted and they could do audience adjustments (which are normal in any product, but they went overboard with TROS).
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Post by vaderito on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 12:17 pm

TROS and Mulan are the nadir of focus group film-making.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 1:07 pm

I despair of the future of romance in movies.

I was listening to Bonnie Tyler's Holding out for a Hero on the radio recently - when she said 'Where are all the good men gone, and where are all the gods' my first thought was: 'the woke brigade emasculated them.'

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Post by Saracene on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 4:41 pm

Well yes the OT had the Rebels and the war, the point is that for most of the time it was mostly in the background while the movies concentrated on the characters’ relationships and their wants outside of it. In ESB they pretty much disappear from view for most of the running time and the characters don’t even think about them all that much because they’re busy with their own personal stuff. Luke quits his training and runs off to save his friends as individuals, not to secure a win for the Rebels or whatever.

Sure the friendships in TFA were too quick and easy, but I think that the decision to split Rey and Finn for the entirety of the film without even giving them one line of dialogue was terrible. They’re actually in the same location at one point, and the movie does nothing with it whatsoever. Finn also lost whatever connection he had with Kylo in TFA which only strengthened the notion of him being made irrelevant.

I never really got the point about the Resistance being supposedly morally grey for buying their weapons from the same dealers as the FO. What are they supposed to do, seek out ethically minded arms dealers who only sell to the good guys? They might as well go looking for unicorns. I really don’t think that it was meant to say anything about the Resistance, it was just DJ making his point about how you can have a sweet life without joining a side because it’s all just a machine.
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Post by spacebaby45678 on Mon 28 Sep 2020, 6:01 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I despair of the future of romance in movies.

I was listening to Bonnie Tyler's Holding out for a Hero on the radio recently - when she said 'Where are all the good men gone, and where are all the gods' my first thought was: 'the woke brigade emasculated them.'

@motherofpearl1

This goes back to immediately after post TFA... According to "some" Rey is the original Woke Mary Rey Sue heroine.. OG's and Old Heads posited that there is no way Rey untrained and having newly discovered the force could beat  Kylo Ren a "sith" or "dark jedi" grandson of Anakin/Vader who had been trained by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker in a lightsaber duel...that argument online... led to people/youtubers speculating about lineage... (REYWALKER WAS BORN) and no the hard knock Jakku life should not have been enough preparation to kick Kylo's arse...hence the online nickname Krylo Ren...

Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 8 Tumblr_o4o6sqpWKm1qzdxj0o1_540


That backlash caused the original over reach of Rey "nobody" and the Rey nobody movement on social media. I am of a firm belief that Pablo's interaction with all the online "factions' very much influenced his council to Rian...and they wanted to teach the alt-right incels a lesson ... The lesson? That Rey Nobody a  strong self made "woman" did not need a connection to a "man" to be a heroine or main character.

but that again was not the totality of the online conversation on Rey and her reason for being... those where just the loudest voices.. both arguments lack  nuance and still do...

While the plot and setting can be contemporary and topical.. the Hero and the Anti Hero should embody the universal eternal mythology and be above temporal politics...
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 29 Sep 2020, 1:33 am

And at the end of Annie Lennox and Arethra Franklin's Sisters are doin' it For Themselves is the line....a woman still loves a man, and a man still loves a woman.
But, according to DLF...women don't need or want men. Rolling Eyes

Not long ago on another forum, one female Kylo hater said she was so very glad Kylo died because she 'hated the kiss scene and would have been very angry if reylo had happened.' This is the same individual who called Han and Leia's romance in ESB 'abusive'.

I would like to know just who these people think they are?
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Post by fuhry on Tue 29 Sep 2020, 10:01 am

@spacebaby45678 I will only say this: I didn't need Rey kicking Kylo's arse for me, as a fan, to speculate about Rey's lineage. I would say that was not, for me a factor at all. But I still walked out of TFA speculating about Rey's lineage (or at least her connection to episodes I-VI).

The main reasons for that were:

1. Rey's mysterious "family" that she was waiting for to come back.
2. "What girl"
3. "Who's the girl?" followed by scene cut.
4. Rey's force vision upon touching the Skywalker light saber, including Bespin, Kylo Ren, and Obi-wan's voice.
5. The fact that Kylo was Han and Leia's son seemed to suggest that there would be another descendant.

But, I mean, point taken, I think Rian was irritated by all that speculation, and probably by the weird disjointed mystery box he had to contend with, and he decided to subvert it and surprise the audience, because that's what good filmmakers do. For me, it kind of fell flat, drama wise, because of point 5 above. I want to see descendant vs. descendant - I think it makes sense.

TROS then subverted the subversion which is a perfectly fine thing to do, but it did so in a half-assed, unconvincing way. That made the ST's main heroine have a muddled, confusing and uninspiring story. And that's even BEFORE you throw in the stilted Reylo romance.

As for Finn, I do agree that taking him away from Rey in TLJ deprived the audience of the Finn / Rey fun connection. But I think there was plenty of time for the matured Finn and Rey to reconnect their friendship and mutual adventures in the last movie. Instead, Finn is just Poe's sidekick and his only connection to Rey is yelling her name a lot.

But I fixed it! I do think there was a way for the last episode to bring things together to make the ST enjoyable. I'm going to present my vision for Episode IX in a series of posts to this thread, starting maybe tonight.


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Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 8 Empty Fuhry's headcanon TROS #1

Post by fuhry on Thu 01 Oct 2020, 12:39 pm

OK, here we go.  One note before I proceed:  For characters BB-8, Chewbacca, and R2D2, since this is a script, they have lines, in parentheses, which indicate the meaning behind their beeps, whistles, grunts and moans.

Opening crawl -> Scene 1.  There is no mention of Palpatine in the crawl.  The setup is that time has passed, and the First Order is dominant but that the Resistance has been rebuilt and so the war is heating up again.  Kylo is searching for new force powers, Rey is searching for a kyber crystal for the repaired Skywalker saber.

The movie opens with Rey in scavenger mode once again, except that instead of searching for parts to exchange for rations, she's searching for kyber crystals so she can complete her training as a Jedi.  We learn what is happening by Rey talking to BB-8, similar to how Luke spoke to R2 on Dagobah.  And a fun little callback to a classic Luke/Leia moment from ANH.
===============================================

EPISODE IX


THE RISE OF SKYWALKER



It is a time of mounting conflict in a galaxy weary of war. The RESISTANCE, led by GENERAL LEIA ORGANA, has rebuilt its ranks and has once again begun to disrupt the iron rule of the diabolical FIRST ORDER.



SUPREME LEADER KYLO REN, frustrated by his inability to find and snuff out the new rebels, searches the galaxy for ancient knowledge and technology that can increase his power in the FORCE.



Meanwhile, REY, the first of the new JEDI, travels to the Endor system, to search among the ruins of the GALACTIC EMPIRE for kyber crystals to rebuild her light saber, unaware that an ancient evil is lurking, threatening to snuff out hope in the galaxy once and for all…..




Pan down from a field of stars.  The ruins of the Death Star jut out from a great roiling sea.  A lone X-wing travels toward it.



Int. X-wing



REY is in the cockpit.  



REY


There it is.  We’re looking for part of the weapons power core.



BB-8


(Right there.  But I’m not picking up anything, too much magnetic interference.  Why are we here?)



REY


Well, the old Empire pilfered all the kyber crystals in the galaxy to build these planet killers.  I just need one for my lightsaber, let’s see if we can find it.



BB-8


(Be careful)



REY


BB-8!  I’m always careful.



Ext. Death Star ruins



The X-wing sets down on an uneven piece of the wreckage.  Clamps come out to hold the X-wing in place.  The cockpit opens and Rey removes her helmet, walking on the nose of the X-wing.



BB-8


(you only have a couple of hours before the radiation damages you)



REY


I’ll be back before then.



Int. Death Star Ruins



Rey walks down a long, grand corridor.  The wreckage is askew, so she is walking uphill.  It is dark, illuminated only by her headlamp.  The once-grand structure creaks and moans as the winds and waves pound it.  Stormtrooper armor and tattered uniforms and skeletons are seen.  



Rey reaches a great open area.  She lights a flare and weapons power core #3 of the Death Star is illuminated.  Water covers the lower half but there is a bridge to a central structure.  Rey closes her eyes and concentrates.  She begins to climb.



She reaches a piece of the core, balanced on some other wreckage.  She climbs up to it and pulls out a toolkit.  Using her scavenger skill, she loosens the ancient rusty bolts, burns the rest with a torch and opens a panel.  She pulls out a holder with several glowing blue and green kyber crystals.



REY


Hello, I’m Rey.  I’m here to rescue you!



Rey lifts a section of kyber crystals and puts them in her carry bag.



REY


There’s extra crystals, if anyone else wants to be a Jedi.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 03 Oct 2020, 12:12 pm

@spacebaby45678 wrote:
@motherofpearl1 wrote:I despair of the future of romance in movies.

I was listening to Bonnie Tyler's Holding out for a Hero on the radio recently - when she said 'Where are all the good men gone, and where are all the gods' my first thought was: 'the woke brigade emasculated them.'

@motherofpearl1

This goes back to immediately after post TFA... According to "some" Rey is the original Woke Mary Rey Sue heroine.. OG's and Old Heads posited that there is no way Rey untrained and having newly discovered the force could beat  Kylo Ren a "sith" or "dark jedi" grandson of Anakin/Vader who had been trained by Jedi Master Luke Skywalker in a lightsaber duel...that argument online... led to people/youtubers speculating about lineage... (REYWALKER WAS BORN) and no the hard knock Jakku life should not have been enough preparation to kick Kylo's arse...hence the online nickname Krylo Ren...

Rey Kenobi Postmortem - Page 8 Tumblr_o4o6sqpWKm1qzdxj0o1_540


That backlash caused the original over reach of Rey "nobody" and the Rey nobody movement on social media. I am of a firm belief that Pablo's interaction with all the online "factions' very much influenced his council to Rian...and they wanted to teach the alt-right incels a lesson ... The lesson? That Rey Nobody a  strong self made "woman" did not need a connection to a "man" to be a heroine or main character.

but that again was not the totality of the online conversation on Rey and her reason for being... those where just the loudest voices.. both arguments lack  nuance and still do...

While the plot and setting can be contemporary and topical.. the Hero and the Anti Hero should embody the universal eternal mythology and be above temporal politics...
@spacebaby45678



The thing is, after the first film there were a lot of ways Rey's sudden 'talent' could be explained. The fight on Jakku with Plutt's men showed she had experience with close combat weapons. Her powers could have been suppressed until Kylo's mind probe awakened them. And although everyone here has gone over it time after time, her fight with Kylo on Starkiller gave her several advantages - he was badly injured and losing a lot of blood, which would have been exacerbated by his brief but brutal fight with Finn. And Pablo Hidalgo himself said that when Rey probed his mind she 'downloaded' Kylo's fighting skills and essentially borrowed them.
The problem is, nobody told the audience this. As Elijah Wood pointed out, people had to try and figure it out themselves. Much as i loved TLJ there should have been a scene where Luke warned Rey that she had beaten his nephew simply by luck and that she couldn't rely on 'borrowed' powers, as well as a scene where he actually told her this was where she had acquired her sudden skill. Rey should also have had a sabrestaff instead of a lightsabre as she had plenty of prior experience with this type of weapon.
I don't blame Rian entirely for this however - he wrote and directed TLJ himself but Disney execs had an influence on the final cut, hence him having to put that silly flirty scene with Rey and Poe in at the end, and Rey's sudden coldness towards Kylo, in both film and book, also at the end - Jason Fry said they'd insisted on it, again to leave room for what the next writer and director wanted. This was the big problem with the ST - Disney seemed to want the main plot thread repeatedly changed from film to film, and I'm genuinely bewildered as to why.
The plain fact is, the beating heart of the trilogy was the relationship between Rey and Kylo. This is what they should have focused on first and foremost. Finn too had plenty of potential but they made his character too lighthearted. Despite the hatred for Rian, he made Finn far more serious in the post Canto Bight scenes. The main trilogy should have been between Rey, Kylo and Finn. By sparing Poe they shoehorned a completely unnecessary character that was really just a Han Solo rip off. Rey, Kylo and Finn were completely original, but once Poe started getting more and more screentime it spoiled things. Rian tried to set him up for a background role in TROS, but they threw that away once Abrams took over as director.
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Post by fuhry on Mon 05 Oct 2020, 8:19 am

OK, I'm back with my headcanon major TROS rewrite.  Let me know if this is super annoying. The point here is to reorient our memories of the locations, actions and dialogue of the atrocious ROTS into a more coherent, satisfying story. Here's scene II.

Scene II is the scene where Poe, Finn and Chewie get the info from Boolio. The only difference is that instead of Klaud, Rose is with them. Rose doesn't need to be here, but having her here allows a dual firing turret scenario which harkens back to ANH nicely and establishes Rose as having evolved into a more seasoned warrior.  Also included is bit of classic R2 doubting by Poe, followed by Chewie defending the courageous droid. It harkens back to the ROTS elevator scene between Anakin and Obi-wan.  It also gives respect to all the remarkable things R2 had done in the saga.


The MILLENNIUM FALCON races into the distance toward a small freighter in orbit around the back side of a moon.

Int.  Millennium Falcon cockpit

POE and CHEWBACCA are piloting.  POE presses a commlink.

POE
OK guys, it’s showtime.

Int. Millennium Falcon lounge

Finn is sitting at the holochess board.  He reaches down and flips a switch and the holographic players sputter and disappear.  Rose is standing in the lounge, standing over R2D2, looking at Finn in disbelief.

ROSE
Did you just shut off the holochess?

FINN
What’s the big deal?

ROSE
Chewbacca, you know, the big furry guy who can rip your arms out, told you not to.

FINN
Relax, it was a power surge.  Good thing you fixed it.

Finn slaps Rose’s shoulder as he walks by.

FINN
Come on Artoo!


Finn and R2 head into the elevator to the topside door.  They go up, Lando style.

EXT. Millennium Falcon, topside.

FINN
Boolio, good to see you.  You got something for us?

BOOLIO
From a new ally!  A spy in the First Order!

FINN
A spy?  Who?

Boolio routes a cable through a scrambler, then plugs it into Artoo, and sidles up to Finn.

BOOLIO
It's better I don't know these things.  Just get it to Leia.

Finn taps R2’s dome affectionately.

FINN
You hear that R2?

R2
(whistles affirmatively)

FINN
R2’s got this.

POE (over comm)
Are you done yet?

FINN
Almost!

Int.  Millennium Falcon cockpit

POE (to himself)
Could we use a droid with a better transfer speed?

CHEWBACCA
Hnnghgh!  (R2 is the most courageous droid!)

POE
Well, courage ain’t gonna help if this ship gets blasted.


INT. First Order vessel

A First Order commander looks out over his weapons specialist.

FIRST ORDER COMMANDER
There they are.  Release the tie-fighters!

INT. Millennium Falcon cockpit

POE
Finn, we're about to be cooked!

ROSE
We're almost there!

Ext. Millennium Falcon topside.

The transfer indicator turns green.  Boolio begins to unplug R2.

FINN
How do we thank you?

BOOLIO
Win the war!

FINN and R2D2 descend and the hatch closes above them.

FINN
Poe, we got it!

Int. Millennium Falcon cockpit.

POE
Great, now get to turret 1, we got company!

POE violently jerks the Falcon about and throws her into full speed as CHEWBACCA flips switches and turns dials.

Int. Millennium Falcon lounge.

Finn and Rose head to their respective turrets.  

EXT. Space

The Millennium Falcon hurtles through space with about 20 tie fighters in pursuit.  A blaster hit rocks the Falcon.  

INT. MIllennium Falcon turret 1
Finn is manning turret 1.

POE (over comm)
Finn, you're supposed to be getting rid of those things!

FINN
Sorry, I'm sorry! I know!  

INT. MIllennium Falcon turret 2

ROSE
Ooh! I got one!

POE
How many are left?

INT. MIllennium Falcon turret 1

FINN
Too many.

INT. Millennium Falcon cockpit

CHEWBACCA
Hnghghh.

FINN (over comm)
What?

POE
Good thinking, Chewie.  Finn, we can boulder these TIEs!

FINN
I was just thinking that.

Finn tractor beams a Tie fighter, and throws it into the other tie fighters.  This slows down the tie fighters and the Falcon gets some space to maneuver.  

FINN
Ha! Get us back to base!

FINN and ROSE arrive in the cockpit

ROSE
What’s happening?

POE
Thrusters at 50%, they’re gaining on us.

An alarm flashes

POE
And the shields just went down -  Chewie, I need those lightspeed calculations now…

Rose runs out

CHEWBACCA
Harngh (I need 30 seconds)

A blast rocks the Falcon.  Poe, flips some switches and engages the hyperdrive.  The Falcon briefly enters hyperspace and then emerges with a huge ice wall straight ahead.


FINN
- Poe!

POE
- I know, I know!

FINN
What are you doing?

POE
Lightspeed skipping.

FINN
How do you know how to do that?

POE
Chewie, please tell me the hyperdrive relays are still up.

CHEWBACCA
Hnnghgh(One of them is.  Rey is going to kill you)

POE
Yeah, well,  Rey's not here, is she?    

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Post by fuhry on Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:57 am

Oops, I accidentally double posted that huge post, sorry!


Last edited by fuhry on Mon 05 Oct 2020, 11:59 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : doublepost)
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