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[controversial] did ben have to die?

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Post by OrionStars on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 4:44 am

Don't cherry-pick sith. And sugarcoating sith won't do us any favor. 2 years ago you guys could polish sith that KK didn't want to spoil Kylo's survival because of her godf*rsaken reasons. But now it's time to face the truth. KK already said she wanted a future with the faux trio and BB8. I think it's so wrong to assume that KK would greenlight TROS if it didn't satisfy her need
KK would whine to the media that Iger didn't allow her precious trio to shine and would fire JJ immediately.

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Post by LadyGaufrette on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 5:20 am

And yet she fired CT and the 2 guys from Solo, and seems to be the one on Rian's side. I'm not saying she's perfect, most of Rey's overpower comes from her in my opinion, and she may had pushed the Rey Skywalker name. However she is the one who engaged Adam, I think, and with her long career, I would be surprised if she didn't saw how Kylo/Ben was a beloved character with a lot of money potential.

I'm talking specially about Ben's fate here, for the trio, of course they all wanted it, they want to tell the stories they couldn't because Han, Leia and Luke were too old. Having the trio doesn't mean you can't have Ben alive.

Call it feminine intuition, but I think Iger overrules KK and he wanted his movie for December 2019, no matter if it was satisfying or not. Solo was a victim of this. George is friend with KK, he chose her because he knew she understand that SW is about hope and love. Iger is the one who had Disney movies with some of the saddest ending this year.
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Post by OrionStars on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 6:34 am

@LadyGaufrette wrote:And yet she fired CT and the 2 guys from Solo, and seems to be the one on Rian's side. I'm not saying she's perfect, most of Rey's overpower comes from her in my opinion, and she may had pushed the Rey Skywalker name. However she is the one who engaged Adam, I think, and with her long career, I would be surprised if she didn't  saw how Kylo/Ben was a beloved character with a lot of money potential.

I'm talking specially about Ben's fate here, for the trio, of course they all wanted it, they want to tell the stories they couldn't because Han, Leia and Luke were too old. Having the trio doesn't mean you can't have Ben alive.

Call it feminine intuition, but I think Iger overrules KK and he wanted his movie for December 2019, no matter if it was satisfying or not. Solo was a victim of this. George is friend with KK, he chose her because he knew she understand that SW is about hope and love. Iger is the one who had Disney movies with some of the saddest ending this year.
@LadyGaufrette

I understand but KK is a human being too and KK made a mistake (or not a mistake from KK's point of view and she's just too confident about her choice), she has put all her eggs in Rey Palwalker/The Faux trio's basket.

I don't think Iger understands SW better than KK, but the fact KK declared that she wanted a future with BB8 and the faux trio 2 years ago was a big red flag,it's very likely that she assured Iger that Rey Palwalker/The Faux Trio could carry this franchise into the bright future of archiving $2 billion again and there would be no consequence after killing off the whole Skywalker family because the last living self-adopted Skywalker aka. Princess Senate Palpatina Skywalker still survives
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Post by guardienne on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 8:46 am

@nickandnora i find that the likeliest scenario, too. (that he was meant to live, after all). the thing for me is that when you do something like that, have him kill off a beloved character and heavily imply he killed the other jedi students and so on, you do need to have some kind of exit strategy. and that means you gotta plan the story of why he should stay alive. why we should care.

i have often read how it is important for him to stay alive seeing as he's a skywalker, and i ave always thought that the wrongest reason. you don't get to keep playing because your parents are famous, you should get to keep playing because your story serves a purpose.

i think even with him alive at the end of TROS there is little purpose to his overall story. or else, there is little point in taking three movies to tell it. it's inefficient to me. god, i dream of all the amazing stories we could have had instead of this rehashed trilogy.
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Post by lauvamp on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 9:05 am

@LadyGaufrette ugh....I wonder if they really thought about the consequences of this mess.

BUT on the other hand, if they rescued Loki why not Ben??? Specially knowing Palpatine was manipulating him.... It's like they don't want to make it clear because it contradicts with the merchandise of "Kylo the villain". I think they don't know how to deal with such rich character....


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Post by OrionStars on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 9:14 am

@guardienne wrote:@nickandnora i find that the likeliest scenario, too. (that he was meant to live, after all). the thing for me is that when you do something like that, have him kill off a beloved character and heavily imply he killed the other jedi students and so on, you do need to have some kind of exit strategy. and that means you gotta plan the story of why he should stay alive. why we should care.

i have often read how it is important for him to stay alive seeing as he's a skywalker, and i ave always thought that the wrongest reason. you don't get to keep playing because your parents are famous, you should get to keep playing because your story serves a purpose.

i think even with him alive at the end of TROS there is little purpose to his overall story. or else, there is little point in taking three movies to tell it. it's inefficient to me. god, i dream of all the amazing stories we could have had instead of this rehashed trilogy.
@guardienne

I agree with your point. Besides, I think if Poe died in TFA as originally planned, then we would have more time to explore Kylo's tragic past in the films, and the more GA know about Kylo's past, the more they root for him to survive, which would lead to another outcome for Kylo's arc. But JJ spared Poe and KK allowed it, then both JJ and KK became obsessed with Poe (mostly because they thought Poe could become Han Solo 2.0) so we had no time to explore Kylo's past, frankly, Kylo's death was kind of inevitable since the day KK said she wanted a future with Rey, Poe, Finn. Rey Palwalker is just a nail in the coffin.
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Post by guardienne on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 9:38 am

@OrionStars the thing is, i like poe a lot and star wars is also a bunch of very entertaining movies where people do reckless stuf and stay alive and build relationships. it's not ... a character study as such. these movies are also meant to be fun. having poe and finn in there bantering away and loving each other, that is a wonderful thing.

anyway, i remember thinking that any and all back story would have to be done through expositionary dialogue and/or flashbacks because they jumped in with everyone so late in the game. it's one of those things, if you want him to be complicated, why not take your time to flesh out what exactly you wanna say so you can run a tight ship on the story.
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Post by lauvamp on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 9:47 am

@OrionStars I'm so sorry to say that, because the trio were cute, but I hate this cheap idea: "Let's promote the pure & good guys". You have a complex and super-interesting character, played by an Actor who even reached non-Kylo fans....they wanted Ben to live. Did they ever consider this possibility??? They were not brave enough in my opinion. I do not agree with all the hate KK received, but I can't support her with this concrete issue.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 10:04 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@guardienne wrote:@nickandnora i find that the likeliest scenario, too. (that he was meant to live, after all). the thing for me is that when you do something like that, have him kill off a beloved character and heavily imply he killed the other jedi students and so on, you do need to have some kind of exit strategy. and that means you gotta plan the story of why he should stay alive. why we should care.

i have often read how it is important for him to stay alive seeing as he's a skywalker, and i ave always thought that the wrongest reason. you don't get to keep playing because your parents are famous, you should get to keep playing because your story serves a purpose.

i think even with him alive at the end of TROS there is little purpose to his overall story. or else, there is little point in taking three movies to tell it. it's inefficient to me. god, i dream of all the amazing stories we could have had instead of this rehashed trilogy.
@guardienne

I agree with your point. Besides, I think if Poe died in TFA as originally planned, then we would have more time to explore Kylo's tragic past in the films, and the more GA know about Kylo's past, the more they root for him to survive, which would lead to another outcome for Kylo's arc. But JJ spared Poe and KK allowed it, then both JJ and KK became obsessed with Poe (mostly because they thought Poe could become Han Solo 2.0) so we had no time to explore Kylo's past, frankly, Kylo's death was kind of inevitable since the day KK said she wanted a future with Rey, Poe, Finn. Rey Palwalker is just a nail in the coffin.

The problem is.....
The Faux Trio are ..... boring. While watching RoS, it kept wanting their scenes to hurry up so we could get to Kylo again. They don't seem to understand that they've sacrificed their best character to push three others that I've already seen enough of - and sadly I count Rey as well, because in this film she was a bore unless interacting with him.
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Post by LadyGaufrette on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 11:32 am

@OrionStars
You may be right and if we had more information I wouldn't defend her, sadly, it may be 30 years before we know what really happened.
Right now, I tend to believe in her rather than Iger because from the two of them, she was the closest to defend Rian's movie (which is the vision I wanted for this trilogy and what was the storygroup was working on).
All I know is that someone listenned to loud angry fans, and the result was TROS.

@lauvamp
One month ago I would have told you that "it is SW, of course they planned everything!", but now, all I see is a mess everywhere.
I wonder if the big problem is that they don't know what to do with Kylo Ren/Ben Solo in their parks. Or they think that Vader is dead and their best products, so why not do the same with Ben.
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Post by lauvamp on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 3:17 pm

"Behind ‘The Rise Of Skywalker’s’ First $500 Million: Why J.J. Abrams Had To Revive Emperor Palpatine And Kill Off Ben Solo"

https://www.forbes.com/sites/guymartin/2019/12/28/behind-the-rise-of-skywalkers-first-500-million-why-jj-abrams-had-to-revive-emperor-palpatine-and-kill-off-ben-solo/#1b428e942863


......ugh.
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Post by Birdwoman on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 4:42 pm

What a condescending sexist article did I just read? This guy, has zero idea of why so many female fans are upset.

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Post by Atenais on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 7:55 pm

@lauvamp wrote:@OrionStars I'm so sorry to say that, because the trio were cute, but I hate this cheap idea: "Let's promote the pure & good guys". You have a complex and super-interesting character, played by an Actor who even reached non-Kylo fans....they wanted Ben to live. Did they ever consider this possibility??? They were not brave enough in my opinion. I do not agree with all the hate KK received, but I can't support her with this concrete issue.
@lauvamp

I don't hate the trio either, the problem is, they tried to sell the trio as a solid thing, but the trio only started in the last movie. And they killed Kylo/Ben, what it's really awful. Anyway, even if they had kept him alive, the movie is badly done, people wouldn't understand, Kylo was back to the evil, Rey was back to being a jedi, all complexity of their dynamic developed in TLJ was thrown out the window. We were not asking for Shakespeare here, but they didn't have the ball and creativity to follow the story they were telling in TLJ. Sad.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 9:48 pm

@OrionStars wrote:Don't cherry-pick sith. And sugarcoating sith won't do us any favor. 2 years ago you guys could polish sith that KK didn't want to spoil Kylo's survival because of her godf*rsaken reasons. But now it's time to face the truth. KK already said she wanted a future with the faux trio and BB8. I think it's so wrong to assume that KK would greenlight TROS if it didn't satisfy her need
KK would whine to the media that Iger didn't allow her precious trio to shine and would fire JJ immediately.

[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 6 Fyu8Xmp
[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 6 PiljkgO
[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 6 7n316Ds
[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 6 NXFiHVY
[controversial] did ben have to die? - Page 6 VNNgQ15


@OrionStars

I was one of them, and you are correct!

I feel this is the most controversial thing a Reylo can say now, but it is something I unfortunately suspect - I don't think KK is as innocent with this as many would like her to be. Unfortunately, not all women are allies with the heroine's journey and female gaze stories. We know women will claim feminism (and being progressive) under the blanket of patriarchy.

She struck me as very relaxed and confident with the direction of TRoS at all events. Sigh.
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Post by OrionStars on Sun 29 Dec 2019, 10:26 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@OrionStars

I was one of them, and you are correct!  

I feel this is the most controversial thing a Reylo can say now, but it is something I unfortunately suspect - I don't think KK is as innocent with this as many would like her to be.  Unfortunately, not all women are allies with the heroine's journey and female gaze stories.  We know women will claim feminism (and being progressive) under the blanket of patriarchy.  

She struck me as very relaxed and confident with the direction of TRoS at all events. Sigh.  
@SW_Heroine_Journey

Yup. No one is innocent here, so it's pointless to cherry-pick anything as a scapegoat. What JJ wrote for TROS also fit KK's vision, so she got on board. KK only wanted a future with the faux trio and BB8, and she even stated it publicly before TLJ was released. Honestly, I think Kevin Feige the head of Marvel studio is the calculated, cold one who knows to play the game. Robert Downey Jr. and Chris Evans wanted a retirement so Feige made sure that both Iron Man and Captain got married, had a biological offspring and spiritual successor(s) before he sent Iron Man and Captain off.  Feige even made a ridiculous rule for time travel in MCU so he could bring back the death characters anytime.


If Kylo belonged to  Feige, I bet Feige would make sure that Kylo that last real Skywalker had a child before he died. But KK is not Feige, so the real Skywalker had to go extinct so KK and JJ could secure the importance of their precious Rey Palwalker. The death of the entire Skywalker family is a f****** short-sighted, stupid and selfish choice from those who are suffering from the Creator's Pet syndrome.
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Post by lauvamp on Mon 30 Dec 2019, 12:57 pm

Did you guys read this interview? everything sounds even worse lol unbelievable....

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-writer-sets-record-straight-perceived-last-jedi-jabs-1265168
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Post by Gemini on Mon 30 Dec 2019, 4:19 pm

@OrionStars

You just know Reys end is basically KK self insertion of the character.

KK has a feminist agenda, has no husband?

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Post by LadyGaufrette on Tue 31 Dec 2019, 4:46 am

Kathleen Kennedy is married with Frank Marshall since 1987 with whom she founded 'The Kennedy/Marshall Company' in 1992.
So if Rey is KK self-insert, she should have opened a Jedi Academy with her husband Ben Solo.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 31 Dec 2019, 5:16 pm

I managed to track down a full copy of the movie & watched it last night and WOW. All I can say is that after the character regression for both Ben and Rey, along with squandering the beauty of their Force Bonds that turns something both deeply intimate/spiritual into a cheap video game trick, I don't blame him for not speaking the last part of the movie and then peacing out of there. It was so bad I was cringing for both the actor and the character. Like how the fu** did the studio screw that up so badly, especially when the actor in question is in the middle of doing an award season victory lap?

I don't doubt given the opportunity, some future project will resurrect the character from beyond the veil but it won't be the same actor again and the writers won't be at the level of the first two scripts. So if we're talking about this specific version of Ben, then I feel like he's in a better place getting the Hell out of that scene given how bad it was. Like I just told another forum member in a private discussion, I've seen better written episodes of Forces of Destiny than this movie.
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Post by rey09 on Tue 31 Dec 2019, 8:00 pm

Well according to CT interview, there was no way kylo could be redeemed apparently. CT is a devil.

I don't get what the point of ben solo was. He should have just been some new rando, maybe an actual sith. Just make him the bad guy. Rey and trio stop him. Done.


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Post by unicorn on Wed 01 Jan 2020, 10:24 am

@rey09 wrote:Well according to CT interview, there was no way kylo could be redeemed apparetly. CT is a devil.

I don't get what the point of ben solo was. He should have just been some new rando, maybe an actual sith. Just make him the bad guy. Rey and trio stop him. Done.

@rey09

This guy is the definition of narrow-minded, uninspired and unoriginal for me.
How in hell could this dumb*ss ever become a writer???

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Post by nickandnora on Wed 01 Jan 2020, 10:30 am

@unicorn wrote:
@rey09 wrote:Well according to CT interview, there was no way kylo could be redeemed apparetly. CT is a devil.

I don't get what the point of ben solo was. He should have just been some new rando, maybe an actual sith. Just make him the bad guy. Rey and trio stop him. Done.

@rey09

This guy is the definition of narrow-minded, uninspired and unoriginal for me.
How in hell could this dumb*ss ever become a writer???

@unicorn

Not sure if you are thinking of the same interview that I am, but the French one seems to be the source of this and he's being mistranslated. He said that he knew there was no way there WEREN'T going to redeem Han and Leia's son.

Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a dumbass regardless, lol.

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Post by unicorn on Wed 01 Jan 2020, 11:15 am

O.k., but nevertheless, redemption through death was the weakest, most cowardly, unsatisfying and unimaginative way they could write this.
It doesn´t rehabilitate CT in my opinion.
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Post by rey09 on Wed 01 Jan 2020, 11:25 am

@nickandnora wrote:
@unicorn wrote:
@rey09 wrote:Well according to CT interview, there was no way kylo could be redeemed apparetly. CT is a devil.

I don't get what the point of ben solo was. He should have just been some new rando, maybe an actual sith. Just make him the bad guy. Rey and trio stop him. Done.

@rey09

This guy is the definition of narrow-minded, uninspired and unoriginal for me.
How in hell could this dumb*ss ever become a writer???

@unicorn

Not sure if you are thinking of the same interview that I am, but the French one seems to be the source of this and he's being mistranslated. He said that he knew there was no way there WEREN'T going to redeem Han and Leia's son.

Don't get me wrong, I think the guy is a dumbass regardless, lol.
@nickandnora

yea you're right it was a double neg, he did mean there was no way he could not be redeemed. and yes, he still sucks so much.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 01 Jan 2020, 4:19 pm

@OrionStars wrote:
@guardienne wrote:@nickandnora i find that the likeliest scenario, too. (that he was meant to live, after all). the thing for me is that when you do something like that, have him kill off a beloved character and heavily imply he killed the other jedi students and so on, you do need to have some kind of exit strategy. and that means you gotta plan the story of why he should stay alive. why we should care.

i have often read how it is important for him to stay alive seeing as he's a skywalker, and i ave always thought that the wrongest reason. you don't get to keep playing because your parents are famous, you should get to keep playing because your story serves a purpose.

i think even with him alive at the end of TROS there is little purpose to his overall story. or else, there is little point in taking three movies to tell it. it's inefficient to me. god, i dream of all the amazing stories we could have had instead of this rehashed trilogy.
@guardienne

I agree with your point. Besides, I think if Poe died in TFA as originally planned, then we would have more time to explore Kylo's tragic past in the films, and the more GA know about Kylo's past, the more they root for him to survive, which would lead to another outcome for Kylo's arc. But JJ spared Poe and KK allowed it, then both JJ and KK became obsessed with Poe (mostly because they thought Poe could become Han Solo 2.0) so we had no time to explore Kylo's past, frankly, Kylo's death was kind of inevitable since the day KK said she wanted a future with Rey, Poe, Finn. Rey Palwalker is just a nail in the coffin.

There's just one problem.
Poe, Rey and Finn.....
Aren't very interesting.
They are good actors, but come across as poor versions of the OC. Their stories have been told. Rey was at her best when interacting with Kylo.

KK doesn't realise that she's killed off the ST's best character. Whatever success TROS has at the box office will be down to Kylo. I doubt people will want to see a movie with Mary Rey Sue as it's main character.

I said this on another forum, I will say it here:
I could watch a dozen films with Kylo. I've had enough of the others.

I walked out of TROS after Ben died. The fate of the new trio.....sorry Kathleen. I couldn't care less about any of them. You want to put butts on seats? Bring back Ben Solo.


I
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