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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by ZioRen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:01 pm

@Night Huntress wrote:
@rey09 wrote:

I'm also very religious and understand where you coming from. But I also think religious people pick and choose who deserve redemption based on who they like or not, which I find gross. It's not consistent. ake a fake one. It’s such a nauseating story honestly. They had 0 imagination.
@rey09

I'm not religious at all - but I totally believe in redemption and forgiveness...we're all human and product of our upbringing and circumstances. We make mistakes and we shouldn't be only defined by them. Of course in real life you have to face consequences for crimes but this is fiction, fantasy space opera. I still can't believe how people can't distinguish between reality and fiction.

We all have our biases - that's only human. But it would've been so much more interesting to have a redemption where the former villain lives...
@Night Huntress

Exactly. the thing about movies like this: we don't watch them for realism. In the real world, the danger of giving bad people a second chance, even if you believe in redemption, is that it could come around to bite you. And you never truly know that it won't.

But in Star Wars, we KNOW it won't come around to bite us. We KNOW they truly change. We know Anakin had a change of heart, we know Ben is truly Ben again and that he'd do anything for Rey and never harm her again. The beauty of these redemption arcs is being able to experience them without the fear we'd have in the real world. I don't give a diddly darn sh*t about so and so not suffering "realistic" consequences; that's not the point. It never was. I want to feel that optimism from this series. And I'd have liked it, for once, to not just end in death.

And if they want to explore deeper and more difficult themes of redemption, the struggle of trying to move on and do right in a world where you've done so much wrong (and these themes belong much more in the side media than in the movies themselves, in my opinion) they had a perfect chance for that in Kylo. They decided not to take it.
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Post by AcrosstheStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:01 pm

@rey09 wrote:
@FrolickingFizzgig wrote:Rian is absolutely throwing shade at the studio right now, but in the most honourable and innocent and playful way possible. He's following his own messages: don't fight what you hate, save what you love. He is going to be around to hire Kelly again in future roles, and that makes me feel so much better about her situation. This has told me that they've probably talked a lot about what happened and this is his way of telling others he'll be there for her. How wonderful.
@FrolickingFizzgig

I'm really desperate for Rian's SW movies now!! I honestly feel he's our only hope. Seems like all we'll get otherwise is fanboy garbage.
@rey09

Honestly I’m afraid they will never get made because they will double down on “It’s all Rian’s fault!” rather than at least privately acknowledge amongst themselves at the company that JJ and them made a mess of a movie. No

I don’t know who will take over for Iger, but I hope it is someone with some sense and care for quality.
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Post by Ramblingrose on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:02 pm

@Teo oswald wrote:I haven't seen the movie yet. But I am confident of this: If they want to return Ben Solo, they will.
@Teo oswald

There is no return of Ben Solo I will accept, unless Adam Driver will play him.
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Post by AcrosstheStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:11 pm

@Mila95 wrote:
@Kylo Rey wrote:That Kelly tweet was respectful shade. Revealed a lot. I thought it was very, very telling that he didn’t tweet anything about TROS (and still hasn’t). No praise, nothing. He’s always been the type to be very supportive and active on social media about these things. He also must be well aware of how hurt the fans must be feeling right now. I could see him working with Kelly again. Bonus if he works with Adam again too. They seemed to get on really well together.
@Kylo Rey

Yeah the shade is clear. And I definitely thought the fact that he wasn't at the premiere or hasn't said anything at all about the movie was very telling. What a mess and for no reason basically. Also its amazing timing,Rian's movie getting praise, doing well at the box office and getting nominated for awards while TROS is a critical disappointment that will most likely earn less than TLJ lol
@Mila95

I don’t believe in “karma” per se, but I do believe in general that what you put out often comes back to you sooner or later, good or bad. Particularly bad. Seen it too many times in life to think it’s a coincidence. Rudeness, mean spirited actions, or blame shifting can boomerang on the person doing it so easily, and in epically ironic ways. Then they’re left to eat crow or humble pie. 

Decent people like Kelly suffer for the negative behaviors of others though, that is the sad part of it.
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Post by FrolickingFizzgig on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:22 pm

Ugh, getting real secondhand embarrassment from those tweets and petitions. This is not how you make a difference. Man. I wanted to thank Rian, not tell him to "save" a relationship or character. I don't know his full feelings or what he would have written. He has no power. If he did he would probably be writing/directing a SW movie right now.
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Post by ZioRen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:32 pm

It's funny because I'm torn at Ben "coming back to life." On one hand of course I want more of him! On the other hand, I'd like for JJ and his ilk to find at least a shred of integrity and stick to their guns when it comes to their own story. Because goodness knows that seems to be an impossibility.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:43 pm

@ZioRen wrote:It's funny because I'm torn at Ben "coming back to life." On one hand of course I want more of him! On the other hand, I'd like for JJ and his ilk to find at least a shred of integrity and stick to their guns when it comes to their own story. Because goodness knows that seems to be an impossibility.
@ZioRen

God, ain't that the truth.

The constant flip flopping last minute changes are so clear in the movie. And the cutting and pacing. A final cut of a movie often reflects the filming process.

TROS is a mish mash of ideas, rushed editing, cuts, strange meaningless symbolism in the final act of the film.

Some crazy extreme changes and reshoots have haunted it for sure.
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Post by Ramblingrose on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:50 pm

I have not been posting here for a long time, due to issues at home and a lot of things going on. But I have to come here so I could get some comfort.

I saw TRoS on Wednesday in my country, and I am still feeling crushed late Saturday. I am writing with tears in my eyes.
I wish Rian J would not have directed TLJ at all, but that JJ had directed all movies. They I would not be haunted by that wonderful movie now. The deep and meaningful charachters. The intense eyes, the tears and the softest, most moving "Please..." I ever heard. If JJ had control over all movies, we would have a safe, conventional second movie. Star Wars would just be light action entertainment, without anything special to remember for me.

I also heard that scenes from TRoS was reshot several months, until October, and cut so it is almost unrecognizable from the first manuscript. Maybe that is true, I hope it is, and that we can see cut scenes. That can explain why it feels just like that, cut and pasted together. Why Rose was reduced to nothing, why Finn reverted to screaming Reeeeyyyyy all the time. Even when she was fighting. Was she supposed to turn around and yell "What is it Finn?" Was that to please the Rose haters? Or to lay ground for a Finn and Rey movie in the future?

The return of Palpatine feels like a panic decision in the last minute. It also makes Anakins sacrifice meaningless. It is so much that is happening that we don't get explained, we are supposed to accept it because "This is Star Wars". If it was a surprise, it would be better. But no. We are told it in the trailers. Not exiting. The KoR is just there. They don't speak. It is not mentioned where thay have been or anything. They are just there. It would be better if they too, were a surprise.

It is the final end to the Skywalker saga, and it ends with finishing off the last Skywalker in a disrespectful way. I can not tolerate that Rey are totally happy and is celebrating with her annoying friends. There is not a single word about him, not a scene where it is told to the others that he died to save her. I was totally boiling when I saw the force ghosts and no Ben. All the Skywalkers dead, and the descendant of Palpatine alive. Taking all the honor and now also the Skywalker name.

I am so disappointed. It would be good to see a scene where Rey tells what happened and appear to be mourning. I can not see Ben brushing off Reys death the same way. I am feeling anger towards Rey now, because of how the movie was showing her. She is NOT a Skywalker. She will never be that to me. The Rise of Skywalker is about Bens redemption. period.
I am ok with his death, a heroic sacrifice. I am not ok with that it is not mentioned at all.
I am not ok with all the "this movies main charachters is Rey, Finn and Poe". Why call it the end of the Skywalker saga then? The only acceptable ending would be Rey in the desert, unpacking Bens torn tunic and using that to roll in the lightsabers. And Bens force ghost. Rey crying a bit, then wiping her tears and they smiling to each other.
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Post by grimbergen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 6:50 pm

And in the end it feels like Palpatine won. Her granddaughter lives, her blood lives and all the Skywalkers died Crying or Very sad This f****ing bitter if you think about it deeply but I don't want to throw continuous tantrums either
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Post by loversinthestorm on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:00 pm

I know the main opinion is jj and kk wanted to kill Ben but I keep going back to that Interview where one of then says they had to change something (maybe Bob Iger or Disney asked them) because even if they did not want it, the Skywalker saga had to end.

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Post by reylo1992 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:05 pm

@grimbergen wrote:I just watched the movie. It wasn't as horrible as I thought. I guess having read spoilers and knowing what was going to happen helped.
A disaster Finn. He passes the movie chasing Rey. Many things happen in a short time and you don't have time to digest everything.
The only time I cried was with the death of Kylo. At least I knew it was going to happen but it is something I do not forgive. I left the cinema bitterly for that. They ended up with all the Skywalkers. Crying or Very sad
@grimbergen

I agree. My impression is that they made Finn force sensitive to counterbalance the fact that Rey was given a huge lineage, thus not erasing the message that the Force can develop in anyone. I wasn't shocked by the addition through. J.J. already gave us hints in TFA but I don't remember seeing any hints like this in TLJ, except maybe the moment he shoots Rey while awakening. Otherwise, his arc wasn't good because he was indeed spending his time overprotecting Rey who sent him away for the umpteenth time. I find funny that the antis never point out how she basically knocked him on the floor during the first encounter, angrily shooted at him in the MF, told him "none of your business" and litterally Force projected him out of her sight yet he was still insisting to get involved while she was still in marrital fight with Kylo. Yet antis maintain over and over again that Rey will end up romantically involved with him in the future.
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Post by MaddieDove on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:09 pm

@vinventure12 wrote:And is anyone else feeling like a clown for putting time and research and writing beautiful theories and meta? Also trying to figure out the symbolism the directors were putting into the movies so we can pick up on foreshadowing and where the story was going to go? I think that's why some of us are pointing to our gut feelings and believing that the things we saw in the movies were pointing it toward going this way in the story. But there was no plan! I feel like an idiot for thinking there ever was. The symbolism was pointless, foreshadowing was just them creating pretty visuals and trying their hand at character development. I should just buy a big red clown nose and walk around wearing it for the rest of my life.
@vinventure12

Please, don't feel like this, don't be cruel to yourself!
I don't write meta, but I enjoy reading other people's interpretations and I do sometimes fantasize and continue the story in my mind. It's great fun, a good way to exercise our imagination and analytical skills. I do believe in reception theory and that the meaning of the story is finally created in our minds with our active participation. What does the story mean? - the text doesn't provide a unique answer, it is us individually who answer it with the totality of our mindset, our knowledge, life experience and imagination, different from the author's. It's great that we can share it through the net.

I also feel sometimes this process can be misunderstood as the unpacking of authors' "real intentions" and speculation and interpretation get mixed up with prediction of what will happen in the next instalment. Couple of years ago I followed from a certain distance Sherlock fandom and the Johnlock conspiracy theorists, and I felt increasingly uncomfortable with their excitement and expectations that the story will definitely go a certain way because all the clues "logically" indicated the creators deliberately made a whole construction that "had" to lead to one and only sure payoff. It was heartbreaking that so many young people were carried away, who didn't have necessarily tools or experience with fiction and televised storytelling, and that they felt broken after the story didn't go where they wanted.

That's why I'd always add a mental note "it could be interpreted as if" before any take on the story beats. It could be interpreted as if Kylo felt like having it all, when he became the Supreme leader, and understood that he had nothing without Rey. It could be interpreted as if Rey closed the door for him temporarily, with part of her wanting to wait for him to come around. But also it could be interpreted as if she's done with him for good. Beautiful meta were written and even if the creators decided differently, it doesn't take anything away from the sound interpretation based on analysis of the text in the state it was, an open text offered to us to create meaning. Don't feel bad about creating and sharing your stories. It is never pointless to enjoy fiction and co-create it. Good, rich stories enable ever deeper thinking and mining for additional layers of meaning, in subtexts, connections with other stories, symbols, and our individual interpretations. You did nothing wrong, except to think that all of that had predictive nature. Your work was just more thorough than the authors who were given the task to continue and finish the story. We are robbed of the payoff that would correspond with our theorizing, but we are also robbed of a good and rich story with a different ending, but with sufficient quality that we would happily follow the authors in a different direction. They're the clowns. We just enjoyed ourselves, and we will do it again and again, when we get a good story. When the story is bad and non sensical, like most of the TROS, it will lead nowhere.
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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:11 pm

@grimbergen wrote:And in the end it feels like Palpatine won. Her granddaughter lives, her blood lives and all the Skywalkers died Crying or Very sad This f****ing bitter if you think about it deeply but I don't want to throw continuous tantrums either
@grimbergen

Do you feel like, it could have worked if they had set this up from TFA? Had they shown she was a palpatine earlier and the 3 movies would be about her coming to terms with it and in the end we learn that blood doesnt define you? She could truly earn the Skywalker  name.

I could have maybe, possibly, got behind it and at least understood it.

But still, no..its still a palp taking everything from the last Skywalker who should have been the Skywalker Rising .

Something is not right here..
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Post by grimbergen on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:19 pm

@Gemini wrote:
@grimbergen wrote:And in the end it feels like Palpatine won. Her granddaughter lives, her blood lives and all the Skywalkers died Crying or Very sad This f****ing bitter if you think about it deeply but I don't want to throw continuous tantrums either
@grimbergen

Do you feel like, it could have worked if they had set this up from TFA? Had they shown she was a palpatine earlier and the 3 movies would be about her coming to terms with it and in the end we learn that blood doesnt define you? She could truly earn the Skywalker  name.

I could have maybe, possibly, got behind it and at least understood it.

But still, no..its still a palp taking everything from the last Skywalker who should have been the Skywalker Rising .

Something is not right here..
@"Geminis"
Rey Palpatine came out of nowhere. It would make more sense to be Kenobi. There were more clues in that.
Actually they should have left her as Rey was. She doesn't have to have a powerful last name to be someone in life. That motto would be even more powerful and it would have been less painful to name herself Skywalker.
And Leia and Luke seem to repudiate their own family and give the blessing only to Rey is disgusting.
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Post by rey09 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:21 pm

@Gemini wrote:
@grimbergen wrote:And in the end it feels like Palpatine won. Her granddaughter lives, her blood lives and all the Skywalkers died Crying or Very sad This f****ing bitter if you think about it deeply but I don't want to throw continuous tantrums either
@grimbergen

Do you feel like, it could have worked if they had set this up from TFA? Had they shown she was a palpatine earlier and the 3 movies would be about her coming to terms with it and in the end we learn that blood doesnt define you? She could truly earn the Skywalker  name.

I could have maybe, possibly, got behind it and at least understood it.

But still, no..its still a palp taking everything from the last Skywalker who should have been the Skywalker Rising .

Something is not right here..
@Gemini

Def if they started in TFA. They'd would have been able to throughly go thru her family history, show us her parents' stories as well. I was mentioning before but I really think she could have taken her mom's maiden name- ppl say she's the one who turned reys dad away from palps? Idk how legit that is but like hey that would have been her way of navigating her OWN family and not hijacking another's.

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Post by AcrosstheStars on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:22 pm

@loversinthestorm

If that’s true, double the reason to look forward to December 2021 when he exits stage right. Ironically I just came across an interview with him from the premiere, where he said:

“I feel tonight, how I think we want the audience to feel. Yes, there is sadness to what is really closure on nine chapters of the Skywalker saga, and it’s hard. And JJ. has delivered a film that brings closure in an emotional way," said Iger.”

https://www.usatoday.com/story/entertainment/movies/2019/12/17/star-wars-rise-skywalker-premiere-jj-abrams-reveals-final-film/2671726001/?utm_term=upNextModule

That combined with the recent interview (?) where he said they’re going to focus on the GA going forward does indicate to me it could have been a Mouse mandate that all Skywalkers die because it’s too “restrictive and limiting.” AKA they don’t want to deal with living up to anything, just pushing their new stuff as better and “the new real” Star Wars. 

T-minus 23 months! Although unfortunately the next person could actually be worse. Neutral
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Post by reylo1992 on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:22 pm

@Gemini wrote:
@grimbergen wrote:And in the end it feels like Palpatine won. Her granddaughter lives, her blood lives and all the Skywalkers died Crying or Very sad This f****ing bitter if you think about it deeply but I don't want to throw continuous tantrums either
@grimbergen

Do you feel like, it could have worked if they had set this up from TFA? Had they shown she was a palpatine earlier and the 3 movies would be about her coming to terms with it and in the end we learn that blood doesnt define you? She could truly earn the Skywalker  name.

I could have maybe, possibly, got behind it and at least understood it.
@Gemini

Honestly, I rather think it would have undermined the message to reveal it earlier because she would have had exactly the same arc as Luke had. Looking at the entire story, Vader wasn't just the bad guy: he became a fallen hero thanks to the PT. Rey is the descendant of a real villain and everything good or bad she did would have been right away interpreted in this regard. I actually find uplifting that she became a heroin without anyone knowing where she came from, which also makes Ben's background more relatable. As hard as her life was on Jakku, she still grew up free from the burden of brainwashing and legacy. Had Palpatine found her, she would certainly have become what Ben became. Of course, the idea that Luke  and Leia knew was a late addition but I don't find it shocking given how both of them reacted. To some degree, I find that there is more continuity than it seems in that story. TLJ was a movie about failure. Remember what Daisy said about being upset that Rian didn't make Luke a father figure to her although she desperately needed it? To some degree, Leia did exactly with her what she did with Ben, except that she actually began to make things right by giving her trust. And Luke had at first probably the same fear reacton he had with Ben and finally evolved into trusting her. I see people on social medias being upset that Skywalkers seem to replace their Son with Rey and thus consider Rey as a stealer of the Skywalker legacy. My personal feeling is that TLJ exposed the failure and TROS corrected it. Skywalkers realized what they did wrong with Ben and made sure not to repeat the exact same mistake with Rey. And the DS sequence is also so important when I think deeper about it. I think that when Rey heals him, Ben realizes that she would have given her life for him if necessary, that his mother just gave her life for him and that actually both Luke & Han did it too. That's why, the Father-Son scene that looked weird in my mind now make more sense. But it's Rey who triggered that realization and gave sense to these sacrifices.


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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:24 pm

@loversinthestorm wrote:I know the main opinion is jj and kk wanted to kill Ben but I keep going back to that Interview where one of then says they had to change something (maybe Bob Iger or Disney asked them) because even if they did not want it, the Skywalker saga had to end.
@loversinthestorm

Please post (or someone else post) the source for this, the exact words that were said, etc. if this is true, because I'm already feeling a bit conspiracy laden right now and I don't like it, so I would like to know for sure if this is a thing.

I just posted this in another thread:

__________________________________________

You know, I like to think I'm a reasonable person who is not prone to conspiracy theories. Yes, I really analyzed those leaks for error, but in the end there WAS a huge omission so I feel somewhat validated in this respect.

But I'm starting to have this niggling feeling, especially in the last 24 hours, that something was indeed cut out, and perhaps even mandated to be cut out. Just... something is odd. The way the conversations/interviews shifted since April at celebration. The fact that the cast seemed subdued after they supposedly saw it a few weeks ago (remember the interview panel the next day). Adam's absence and silence. The fact that Ben's death makes no sense within the larger context, even of this film. The purported 10-15 minutes (I might not have that number exactly right) that were cut within the last few months. The title of the last track "A New Home." The Art book being delayed. Rey not having a long enough reaction to his death. The final scene lacking closure. John saying (and someone can find what this is from) that he "heard the ending might be changing." Even (and I realize this is a huge stretch) Adam associating "Leaving on a Jet Plane" with Kylo (do I have that anecdote right? someone else can confirm). And in that same vein, the insinuation from Adam that his last scene had LINES.

Here's what I'm starting to wonder... was Ben supposed to be revived (maybe by Leia sacrificing her lifeforce instead of becoming a force ghost) and was he then supposed to fly away and go in hiding, with the Rey and Ben meeting again one day on Tatooine? Is that what was left on the cutting room floor and replaced with what we got instead? Because if so... Jesus.

I don't buy the entirety of that inside info anecdote from the other thread. But I *could* somewhat buy the end part of it; that this movie was ordered to be chopped up by some higher ups. If this is what happened, and there's actual FOOTAGE of another ending out there somewhere (actually scratch that - of an actual longer movie that wasn't chopped up the way it was)... I mean. Damn.

I have no reason to fully believe this. Part of me doesn't. Part of me doesn't WANT to; I'd rather believe this is the movie they made and oh well if the choices suck. But if there's something else out there... well... how do we go about finding it and making things right? Lol. Reylo community goes on a quest for the MacGuffin for real?

Again, I hope this doesn't come across as kooky. I just had to get it out.
____________________________________________________________

I don't want anyone to think I'm latching on to some nutty idea that I'm then going to pursue and talk about ad nauseum as some kind of coping mechanism. I actually don't want to believe this at all and hope I can just move past the niggling thought. I'm quite tired of these Faustian quests for inside information, if I'm being honest with you, lol. The saga films were always it for me (doesn't matter what's happening afterwards, I'll probably be gone in a few weeks for good) and I'd just like to move on like I always was going to. But still, it's the reason why I'd like to know if anecdotes at the top of this page have any basis to them. I've always been a lover of stories first and foremost, and to ruin a perfectly good one that spans generations and decades for some kind of mandate is really awful, IMO.

@AcrossTheStars wrote:That combined with the recent interview (?) where he said they’re going to focus on the GA going forward does indicate to me it could have been a Mouse mandate that all Skywalkers die because it’s too “restrictive and limiting.” AKA they don’t want to deal with living up to anything, just pushing their new stuff as better and “the new real” Star Wars.
Trouble is, they risk losing the goodwill of BOTH the fans (rabid and otherwise), and the GA with this move. It's risky to build something out of nothing when there are many more reasonable avenues. I did say the GA will probably like this movie in a general sort of way. But if word gets around that Star Wars essentially *betrayed* everything it ever stood for, then it's the name and brand itself that becomes ruined. It's such a bizarre thing. Like, close out the saga in an optimistic way and say that's it for that story if you want. You don't have to burn your empire to the ground to make a stand like that, Jesus.


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Post by Gemini on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:28 pm

@grimbergen

Yes I agree,  rey random taking the name seems the more natural choice if Ben dying was always the choice. It would fill me with less "sickness" at the idea. I would have preferred Rey Random taking it for sure. But would still not want Ben dead...

I agree about that part, the way they are smiling. Ben should have at least been standing there too...them smiling was gut wrenching imagery.  It just reeks of fan service,  diminishing Kylo and giving the Skywalker name to the "more worthy one" but even they dont get what they want. I am seeing them recoil at Rey Palp winning it all as well.

@rey09

Yes I agree. It's all very weird.

Like, yes she could have taken the maiden name

She could have even said Rey Solo..if Ben died for her...but nope. Hes just swept under the rug.

@reylo1992

Omg,.that's right. It would literally be the same arc as Luke minus the Sheevdemption.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 7:57 pm

It’s ridiculous if they feel that, in order to close off the Skywalker saga, they needed to kill off the Skywalker family. What about just... not making any more movies about the family and moving on? But of course they can’t even fully commit to that, and end the movie with the family dead but a valuable brand name still on the table in case they want to milk it some more.
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:01 pm

@nickandnora

I definitely don’t think that behind the scenes “leak” is fully true, but there may be something to it. Jedi Paxis didn’t even report about Kylo crawling out of the pit and sharing a kiss with Rey until the last minute. Could it be because they were really reworking the film until then? Maybe the supposed reshoots were just them filming a bunch of different possibilities so the higher ups could decide what “worked” in the editing room?
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Post by Atenais on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:03 pm

I didn't know much from JJ before TFA, but I read a lot about him after the movie. Later I read that he is the master of dropping questions, without necessarily satisfactory answering them.

To be fair with people and their theories, the true is that TFA dropped lots of mystery boxes. People could theorize about Rey's parentage from this movie, hints everywhere: her parents abandoning her, her instantly connection with Han, her instantly connection with Leia, Obi-wan's voice in her vision, her metaphoric and romantic interaction with Kylo, the lightsaber calling to her, then the lightsaber going to her hand, etc. From what I saw, almost everybody could be her parents.

I mean, the movie had more mystery box than plot per si, because the plot was basically a repetition from ANH. And I enjoyed the movie a lot, but maybe it could do better without so many mystery box.

But her dynamic with Kylo was the strongest part of the movie and of the subsequent movies.

Now that I think about, I am truly happy that Rian wrote the second movie, because another director could have made her a Solo, a Skywalker, a Organa. Even JJ, now that I see that what he cares about is to please the lousy fans.

People like to talk about how pointless and boring was Canto Bight, but people don't complain about Cloud City, which was as failed mission as well. The biggest difference is that Darth Vader was there. Would any of us have Kylo there, to make this part "better" or would we prefer that he shared meaningful moments with Rey?

Kylo was very different from Darth Vader. Vader was a big bad all the time, without nuance, without a developed arc and his redemption was amazing.

People say that movies, mainly fantasy movies shouldn't reflect reality, since they're meant to be our escapism from real life. To me, movies are a way to understand reality better, to reflect about me, my surrounding and my life - so fantasy movies should reflect reality, giving me hope at the same time. Fantasy movies are made by people and people will always reflect themselves in their work. The key is to give us hope, it's to tell us, "the world can be a tough place, but love ca win, hope can win, there's beauty in being alive, things can get better".

I never talked about it, but I see much of Kylo in my brother. My brother has abandonment issues (we lost our parents too early), he can be sexist sometimes, since he hadn't the best examples, he made several bad choices, but he isn't a bad person, a bad guy. He tries to be better, but he needs guidance (as all of us). I believe Kylo is a metaphor for the lost men of our generation as well. The world is changing and they're trying to find their way, to be better, despite making bad choices. To have him dead in the end was very dispiriting IMO. To see the toxic fans asking for his death is very ironic, as if they were just saying that them themselves can't be redeemed, because once people made a bad choice their destiny are unchanging.
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Post by LadyHa on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:04 pm

I watched it. I am having trouble taking it seriously. You know, as “art”. I know there’s an unanswerable philosophical debate over whether pop culture is art. But, I like to think it is. Usually.

Over the past few years, I found myself getting tired of having reactionary takes on films. I decided to challenge myself to watch films with a bit more objectivity - to try to not always let my knee-jerk opinions or aesthetic preferences always reside at the forefront of my viewing experience. (This decision was in no small part exacerbated by paying too much attention to angry TLJ discourse.) Mostly, this has been a good thing! I’ve convinced myself to sit through some interesting films that I previously might have dismissed as boring, sexist, or loud. If I find myself not enjoying something, I try to focus on what might be cool about the camerawork, the costumes, the music, etc.

Unfortunately, this strategy is not working with TROS. I can barely find the creativity in it. It’s just a mashup of recycled lines. A pastiche of recycled scenarios. A zombie of a moving picture.

Even the music is a cut and paste job. It has so many callbacks it is required to frantically punctuate!

I was looking forward to reading everyone’s myth & folklore analyses about this film, like with the last two. But, instead I just seem to want to partake in the cathartic and speculative ranting. For example, WTH went on inside DisneyLucasFilm this past year? Was JJ given a laundry list of story points he absolutely had to hit? What could have been if there were more women writers in the room?
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Post by nickandnora on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:12 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:@nickandnora

I definitely don’t think that behind the scenes “leak” is fully true, but there may be something to it. Jedi Paxis didn’t even report about Kylo crawling out of the pit and sharing a kiss with Rey until the last minute. Could it be because they were really reworking the film until then? Maybe the supposed reshoots were just them filming a bunch of different possibilities so the higher ups could decide what “worked” in the editing room?
@Cowgirlsamurai

Oh wow, he DID report it? I didn't know that. When exactly? Did he report that the ending had been changed to Rey alone at the same time?

It is certainly suggestive of something being left out until the last minute because *someone* (maybe just J.J.) was trying to decide something. Again, I don't know how I feel about that. Or was there an ulterior motive ever gleaned for the infamous source?

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Post by LadyHa on Sat 21 Dec 2019, 8:19 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
The Art book being delayed.

We never got any explanation for this, did we? It was pretty last minute.  scratch
____________________________________________________________
@nickandnora wrote:
I don't want anyone to think I'm latching on to some nutty idea that I'm then going to pursue and talk about ad nauseum as some kind of coping mechanism. I actually don't want to believe this at all and hope I can just move past the niggling thought. I'm quite tired of these Faustian quests for inside information, if I'm being honest with you, lol. The saga films were always it for me (doesn't matter what's happening afterwards, I'll probably be gone in a few weeks for good) and I'd just like to move on like I always was going to. But still, it's the reason why I'd like to know if anecdotes at the top of this page have any basis to them. I've always been a lover of stories first and foremost, and to ruin a perfectly good one that spans generations and decades for some kind of mandate is really awful, IMO.

It doesn't seem nutty to me! Wondering about what happened is kind of fun and distracting. And, yeah, I too foresee myself losing interest in Star Wars after this....
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