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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by nickandnora on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 11:51 am

@vinventure12 wrote:
And I know this is super petty, but I was hoping this movie wouldn't make a ton of money, but it looks like it is. And that was all Disney cared about and they won. They butchered a beloved story about a family and all these bad reviews won't bother them in the slightest. And I don't blame Adam for not wanting anything to do with Star Wars anymore, and it breaks my heart that we will never see him as Ben Solo again.

We were robbed, and we will get no justice for it.
@vinventure12
I should probably respond to this in the box office thread, but yeah it's going to make a relatively large amount of money and was never going to flop. Again, the amount is relative though. Is it going to make as much money as it should have, with this film being the last in the saga? No.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure about the amounts yet. Anyone with brains who actually tracks box office has been repeating: you need to wait for the weekend. It's making "a lot" of money during the week because it's Christmas and the vacation days that its release fell on are really good. It doesn't have any other strong competition, and people go to the movies during this time. There's one reliable box office insider (and this isn't making the headlines yet) that says the Friday number based on estimates is actually really low. My suspicion on what is happening is exactly what you (and many of us) are observing in the anecdotal thread: everyone is going to see it, people are coming out happy when they don't think about it (and resolutely stating that's why they are happy about it, lol), anyone else is sort of like, "...um?" If it drops off on its own after a relatively strong Christmas week, that indicates the problem was THIS film and that people just didn't want to see it again and again.

Again, don't look for this to flop as some kind of validation; it's not going to "flop." Disney is probably not going to be thrilled though, no matter what the spin in the media might be.

I'm sorry you are feeling this way, btw.

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Post by californiagirl on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 12:15 pm

Really Terrio? There was no other character to feature at the Resistance base? Connix? You created Beaumont largely to replace Rose already. Even Snap Wexley? No one? Anyone? No, don't you see, we HAD to sideline Rose, there was just no other option!!! Agh.

Remember after TLJ when angry fans made a petition to have it removed from canon? Not suggesting anyone do that for TROS, it's LF's problem, not ours. But this does feel like it almost isn't canon, that's what makes it so hard to process, it's like a surreal dream more than an actual movie.

I do wonder how they will address Rey Palpatine after this. I'm not sure how much interest there actually is from either LF or the audience. Do they just ignore it now that Palpatine's gone? Decide he was lying about a lot of things? Or that his son/Rey's father was actually a clone of him or something? With JJ and Terrio out of the picture, and I don't know how much Iger is involved in SW EU, I really question how dedicated LF will be to the Choices made in TROS, given how upset they and many fans seem to be.
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Post by nickandnora on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 12:18 pm

I don't know about anyone else, but with all these interviews coming out clarifying and defending things, the fact that they have yet to address one of the biggest issues with the movie (Ben's death and how it was handled) is giving me major side-eye.

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Post by Forsythia on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 12:21 pm

"There are leaks, some more accurate than others," Abrams said. "And some that are 100% right and some 3% and some 100% wrong - they are all over the place. But this is the kind of thing you know going into this - no matter what you do, no matter what you say, there will be speculation. There will be, you can't please everyone. There is a lot of noise. The leaks seem to indicate to me there are still people who care about what happens to these characters and that's the most important thing."
(Source: https://abc7chicago.com/entertainment/star-wars-director-jj-abrams-ready-to-wow-fans/5753014/)
Shocked I can't...

So JJ was aware of the leaks and the negative reactions and he was like "cool, at least people still care about these characters" instead of "sith, people who care about these characters will hate the movie, maybe we should do something about that"?
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Post by Mila95 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 12:33 pm

Rose being sidelined because she was around Leia is the biggest lie lol. Can't believe that's what they're going with as a defense, basically we loved Rose so much we put her with Leia, it's not out fault it didn't work out. Yeah right. But it's not surprising, they are never going to own up to sidelining Rose because toxic fan boys didn't like her and said she ruined Star Wars

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Post by vinventure12 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 12:42 pm

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Post by californiagirl on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 1:17 pm

They seem surprised that people care about the characters. Um... yeah? Like did they think everyone had fallen offboard for some reason? At least the last episode of this season's Mandalorian that came out today was great.
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Post by Forsythia on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 2:04 pm

"One of the reasons that Rose has a few less scenes than we would like her to have has to do with the difficulty of using Carrie’s footage in the way we wanted to. We wanted Rose to be the anchor at the rebel base who was with Leia. We thought we couldn’t leave Leia at the base without any of the principals who we love"

That's the lamest excuse ever. Rose didn't have any scenes with Leia in TLJ, so why did it have to be her who was hanging around in non-existent scenes with Leia this movie? Furthermore, there was already another recurring character in the Resistance, who unlike Rose already had a connection with Han and Leia and who also shared more meaningful scenes with Leia in TROS than Rose did - Maz. Rose wasn't the anchor in the Resistance base as she was completely overshadowed by useless male characters played by JJ's buddies Greg Grunberg and Dominic Monaghan. But sure, keep claiming that you love KMT and Rose. It's shameful what Disney did to KMT/Rose and how they are lying about it, using Carrie Fisher as an excuse to justify they sh*tty behaviour.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 2:43 pm

@californiagirl wrote:Really Terrio? There was no other character to feature at the Resistance base? Connix? You created Beaumont largely to replace Rose already. Even Snap Wexley? No one? Anyone? No, don't you see, we HAD to sideline Rose, there was just no other option!!! Agh.

Remember after TLJ when angry fans made a petition to have it removed from canon? Not suggesting anyone do that for TROS, it's LF's problem, not ours. But this does feel like it almost isn't canon, that's what makes it so hard to process, it's like a surreal dream more than an actual movie.

I do wonder how they will address Rey Palpatine after this. I'm not sure how much interest there actually is from either LF or the audience. Do they just ignore it now that Palpatine's gone? Decide he was lying about a lot of things? Or that his son/Rey's father was actually a clone of him or something? With JJ and Terrio out of the picture, and I don't know how much Iger is involved in SW EU, I really question how dedicated LF will be to the Choices made in TROS, given how upset they and many fans seem to be.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 2:50 pm

It's like a bad fantiction.

I have read fantiction that is MILES better than this tripe.

I knew the ending but I went into the cinema determined not to let it colour my judgement.

But I was genuinely stunned at how bad it is. No plot, corny action sequences, tiresome characters.

They did everything they could to 'sell' the nobility of the Resistance. And Rey.

And what we actually got was a Resistance that came across as self righteous berks with their heads up their a****, and a heroine so irritating you wanted to slap her.

They were nothing like the Rebel Alliance.
I felt more of an affinity with the villains.
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Post by Forsythia on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 3:27 pm

It seems to me Chris Terrio is the worst thing that could have happened to TROS. Everything I have heard from him about decisions they made for the film is terrible. First he has the audacity to call Rian's decision to make Rey's parents nobodies less interesting than "Rey Palpatine" when he doesn't even know how to make the reveal meaningful and relevant to the story, now he gives this terrible interview where he is showing no respect for KMT or Carrie and tries to sell it as a positive thing.

There's also this goodie:

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 21 02b10

Who exactly are these 16 characters what does he consider a "significant arc" if he thinks there's so many of them in TROS?  scratch And then he has to brag about how difficult this task was.

I might have mixed feelings about The Last Jedi, but at least Rian Johnson seems more classy than the other directors, writers and actors - at least I haven't heard him belittle or put blame on his colleagues' works to make his own film look better, haven't heard him complain constantly about things and he is more supportive of the actors and people he worked with (even when others tried to throw him under the bus he didn't retaliate). Moreover, TLJ seems to be the only film that didn't have so many production problems as for example Rogue One, Solo, and TROS and the only film that is in intself consistent. Seems Rian didn't fit in with all the other messy people.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 3:30 pm

It's funny how much flak he got.
Yet in the future TLJ will be seen as the classic it is.
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Post by Forsythia on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 4:07 pm

I hope it'll get more appreciation in the future. No matter what anyone thinks of the film, it's not Rian's fault that LF gave every director complete reign over their film and had no clear structure. They could have told him no if they didn't like the direction he went (they had no problem firing people before or after him), but they approved of his decisions. Now he's used as a scapegoat for everything that went wrong with TROS, even though most of the film's problems aren't rooted in TLJ but in JJ or Terrio's inability to tell a good story or understand character arcs. And it's not even the first time, Solo's failure was also blamed on Rian, when there were so many problems surrounding the film like the messy production, poor marketing, and the film itself.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 4:28 pm

So many moaned Rian killed the ,SW franchise when all he did was take it in a new direction.

But Rian's film didn't depress you. It didn't leave you feeling that the whole saga was pointless.

There are so many things I hate about TROS. But I could forgive them if I'd walked out of the cinema with a smile on my face. I have no idea where they'll go from here, and I don't care, to be honest.
I have zero investment in the Adventures of Poe and Finn, or with Saint Rey of Tattooine.
My love for SW, which began forty two years ago, died with the last Skywalker.
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Post by vinventure12 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 4:52 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:So many moaned Rian killed the ,SW franchise when all he did was take it in a new direction.

But Rian's film didn't depress you. It didn't leave you feeling that the whole saga was pointless.

There are so many things I hate about TROS. But I could forgive them if I'd walked out of the cinema with a smile on my face. I have no idea where they'll go from here, and I don't care, to be honest.
I have zero investment in the Adventures of Poe and Finn, or with Saint Rey of Tattooine.
My love for SW, which began forty two years ago, died with the last Skywalker.
@motherofpearl1

What a f****ing mood. For me, the last five minutes of the movie are so important, as it's the last thing you see and remember walking out of the theater. Would Ben living had made this film a masterpiece? Nope. But I sure wouldn't have been crying after watching it and now have to deal with a grief I can't make sense of. It's almost like this movie is a metaphor, in that the end of the Skywalkers is also the end for us as Star Wars fans. It's like Disney did this on purpose to get rid of us. I can't go back and rewatch the movies for a long, long time. I watched the Mandalorian with my husband today and all I could focus on was how bitter I am towards Lucasfilm/Disney now, and how I want nothing to do with whatever they make. Because it's all for money. Screw the story as long as the cash flows in.

TLJ wasn't my favorite movie. I was pretty meh about it. I loved everything about Kylo and Rey. Rian actually let their scenes together breathe and showed them growing to care for one another. JJ didn't really do that in TROS. I think he was just hoping their scenes together in TLJ would sell the romance between them, which I knew was there cause I'm a Reylo. But I can see why people were kind of blindsided by the kiss. I sure as hell wasn't since I wanted it, but my brother was a tab bit surprised.

To me, Rian seemed to be trying to take the whole idea about the Force in a different direction. Instead of it being more black and white, right and wrong, good and evil, it was all about balance. Both sides were important, but that didn't mean one was evil while they other was righteous. The Jedi had their faults in their ignorance and for forbidding attachment and love. On the flips side, the Sith gave into their passions way too much just to hold power. But being passionate and not denying your emotions isn't a bad thing. Both to me were on radical sides of the spectrum. And I think that's what scared a lot of 'fanboys' about TLJ: things were starting to get blurred and the Resistance made mistakes and it showed Poe getting his comrades killed. But no, Star Wars needs to be black and white, good vs. evil, and the bad guy who redeems himself has to die in the end. No forward thinking. No creativity. It was all about the Jedi taking out the Sith in the end. Again.

Sorry for the long reply to your post. I swear, I can talk about all this for hours. lol. But yeah, I won't be buying anything that pertains to Finn, Poe, or Rey in the future either. The characters are just two dimensional to me and aren't interesting. And mark my words, I couldn't put it past Disney to give Rey a love interest in the future and for her to end up with someone that's not Ben, making it out to be that Ben loved her completely while he was just a blip in her journey. No respect, I swear.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 5:19 pm

@nickandnora wrote:
@vinventure12 wrote:
And I know this is super petty, but I was hoping this movie wouldn't make a ton of money, but it looks like it is. And that was all Disney cared about and they won. They butchered a beloved story about a family and all these bad reviews won't bother them in the slightest. And I don't blame Adam for not wanting anything to do with Star Wars anymore, and it breaks my heart that we will never see him as Ben Solo again.

We were robbed, and we will get no justice for it.
@vinventure12
I should probably respond to this in the box office thread, but yeah it's going to make a relatively large amount of money and was never going to flop. Again, the amount is relative though. Is it going to make as much money as it should have, with this film being the last in the saga? No.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure about the amounts yet. Anyone with brains who actually tracks box office has been repeating: you need to wait for the weekend. It's making "a lot" of money during the week because it's Christmas and the vacation days that its release fell on are really good. It doesn't have any other strong competition, and people go to the movies during this time. There's one reliable box office insider (and this isn't making the headlines yet) that says the Friday number based on estimates is actually really low. My suspicion on what is happening is exactly what you (and many of us) are observing in the anecdotal thread: everyone is going to see it, people are coming out happy when they don't think about it (and resolutely stating that's why they are happy about it, lol), anyone else is sort of like, "...um?" If it drops off on its own after a relatively strong Christmas week, that indicates the problem was THIS film and that people just didn't want to see it again and again.

Again, don't look for this to flop as some kind of validation; it's not going to "flop." Disney is probably not going to be thrilled though, no matter what the spin in the media might be.

I'm sorry you are feeling this way, btw.
@nickandnora

(Not a reply for you, this is for everyone really. Only utilizing your response as a jumping off point)

Until January 6th (when the holidays are over) there will not be a definitive answer with the box office. In fact, it may overtake TLJ this weekend, and through next week because the GA is taking their time to see the movie for the 1st time. However, when the holidays are over, TLJ may overtake it again.

It's budget equals $275 million. So, it needs to worldwide gross ~ 825 million to be considered profitable. Everything above that is technically gravy, yet Disney probably wants it to reach/cross a billion for media optics.
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 6:31 pm

At the risk of sounding melancholic, I've been thinking: what was the point of the ST?

I liked TFA and TLJ, and after watching a bootleg recording, I'm mixed on TROS.

Was the ST about Rey's journey in becoming a Jedi and finding a family? Was it about Ben's redemption? First Order vs. Resistance? The connection between Kylo and Rey? Accepting or rejecting your blood lineage and the consequences of either?

As many have mentioned before, Reylo seems to be the main and reoccurring thread in all three movies. But, from the POV of a casual fan, would the ST really be described as a trilogy centered on Rey and Kylo's dynamic? Or was it just a lucky accident we managed to get such astounding chemistry between Daisy and Adam? If Rian hadn't directed TLJ, would Rey and Kylo have any hints of romance or something intimate between them?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this; I'm just throwing my jumbled thoughts out there and trying to pinpoint what stands out as the prominent narrative in the ST (other than Reylo).
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Post by Saracene on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 6:39 pm

I can’t believe that this trilogy is going to be a worse rewatch (in terms of the overall story that is) than the prequels. PT at least builds up to its strongest film by far and though there are heaps of problems with the execution the core idea is solid and it doesn’t just veer off into a different direction altogether.

I don’t like RotJ much to be honest and most of it is IMO forgettable and mediocre, but at least the Luke/Vader stuff is satisfying and affecting and ends the whole thing on a high. If only TRoS landed the ending I likewise would have forgiven it a lot Sad
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Post by rey09 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 6:50 pm

I was watching a video about all the plotholes. Many were on point, others were just being nit picky at technical things. But omg one really god point- Kylo's tie is destroyed on Pasana so his wayfinder should have also been destroyed. But then how is rey able to run off with it and have the wayfinder XD

Another big plothole they said there was - reylo kiss. They said wtf rey HATED him why'd she kiss him?? UGH. So bitter. So angry. I mean, on the one hand, you have got to be SO blind to not see their true feelings for each other. But I just wish it was more obvious, like there is no reason to make a romance so damn ambiguous.

@toolonelytosleep sadly there wasn't much of a point. No one planned this movie, there was no real vision. I think the only thing they were totally sure of was Kylo's redemption, which was badly executed. *sigh* We can question everything but ultimately there's no answer. This whole story was written on a whim.

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Post by Mila95 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 6:53 pm

@toolonelytosleep wrote:At the risk of sounding melancholic, I've been thinking: what was the point of the ST?

I liked TFA and TLJ, and after watching a bootleg recording, I'm mixed on TROS.

Was the ST about Rey's journey in becoming a Jedi and finding a family? Was it about Ben's redemption? First Order vs. Resistance? The connection between Kylo and Rey? Accepting or rejecting your blood lineage and the consequences of either?

As many have mentioned before, Reylo seems to be the main and reoccurring thread in all three movies. But, from the POV of a casual fan, would the ST really be described as a trilogy centered on Rey and Kylo's dynamic? Or was it just a lucky accident we managed to get such astounding chemistry between Daisy and Adam? If Rian hadn't directed TLJ, would Rey and Kylo have any hints of romance or something intimate between them?

I'm not sure where I'm going with this; I'm just throwing my jumbled thoughts out there and trying to pinpoint what stands out as the prominent narrative in the ST (other than Reylo).
@toolonelytosleep

There really isn't any point to it imo other than a money grab. They didn't have a story to tell. After TLJ I thought it would be about the balance of the force that isn't just killing Palpatine and that's exactly what it ending up being again. I thought they wanted to lean into the whole flaws of the jedi thing that the prequels showed and that Rey and possibly Ben would create something new by understanding those flaws and problems and changing things for the better. But no, Rey has no ideas about that at all, she just reads the jedi books and all the past jedi now live her in her or something. Ben's story is too much of a repeat of Vader, tho I think it's better done and Ben is a much more interesting character than Anakin. Basically I can't really find why the new trilogy had to be told if we just look at story and not outside factors, the mostly redid the original trilogy with new characters.

I do think people will see the Ben and Rey dynamic as central, it's pretty much the one memorable and new part the trilogy brings to the table since an enemies to lovers relationship hasn't been done in the saga so far. I think this part will age well and be appreciated in the future even more while a lot in the ST will be pretty forgettable.

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Post by toolonelytosleep on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 7:46 pm

@Saracene I agree with your comment completely. The PT has many problems for me too and I'm not as fond of them as other current SW fans are, but the PT has more rewatchability than the ST now, which I never expected to happen. The dialogue and writing was faulty, but at least the main story of the PT is clear; it's the story of Anakin, who he was as a child and young man, his downfall, and the things he lost in his tragic transformation as Darth Vader. There was hope at the end, since we knew Vader would redeem himself with Luke's help.

Another thing that bothers me about TROS that many other Reylos have mentioned: there's no acknowledgement of Ben's death in the end. Rey barely mourns him, we don't see a Force Ghost, and he's not mentioned by anyone. I know it makes it easier to bring him back if that's what D/LF wish to do in the future, but it's still weird how Ben disappears both literally and figuratively. With Anakin and Luke, there was a sad yet beautiful last conversation between the two of them, and Luke had a funeral pyre for his father before reuniting with Leia and Han. I wish Rey had something similar for Ben, even if it was just a few words to her friends that he saved her and she loved him...

@rey09 I don't think Ben's redemption was as badly executed as it could've been, but I agree it feels like there was no point to the ST other than Reylo and Ben's character arc. Those are the two things that consistently stand out and are praised by both critics and many fans alike. TFA and TLJ remain solidly good films for me, but TROS kind of taints both of them, as disappointed as I am to admit it.

@Mila95 Good point about TLJ bringing up the potential of a balance between dark and light. I can't believe I forgot about that! I would've been more than fine with Ben and Rey defeating Palpatine together, but the way it worked out was just so anticlimactic (other than Ben returning to help Rey and their kiss, of course). Many people, even non-Reylo shippers, thought TROS would involve Rey and Kylo coming together to make things better for the future generation, but that's not where TROS really went. The Skywalkers had a tragic end, and Rey's soulmate is gone. It makes everything feel hopeless, even though that's not how the ending is framed.

Even so, I can definitely see some Reylo copycats in future media featuring enemies-to-lovers romances. Cool Hopefully there will be actual happy endings for such fictional couples because none of the main SW romances ended happily! Anakin/Padme, Han/Leia, Jyn/Cassian, and Rey/Ben all ended on a sad note of sorts.
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Post by lauvamp on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 8:14 pm

It's been 7 days and I can't get over it. I watched the movie 3 times, I already knew the whole plot + Reylo + Ben dying, but I found the movie "hopeful", especially when my friend who came with me said "Ben didn't disappear, he is inside of Rey because their souls became one", it made me feel better...

BUT now I feel robbed lol after all the analysis and noticing the rush, bad edition, the lack of a clear plot from the beginning of this trilogy, and the leaks....no way. These interviews don't help either.

I enjoy this movie until Ben's death, after watching it many times, definitely it was not developed correctly. The end has less sense to me now....why killing the last Skywalker? Disney (or whorever) were not brave enough to bet for this character, everything was resolved in a hurry, redemption, kiss and good bye. No force ghost, no explanation, no mourning, funeral, like he has never existed. Despite of the beautiful kiss + Rey/Ben interactions, it was not fair. And I totally disagree with the message "if you are a strong woman, you must be alone". Excuse me????
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Post by OrionStars on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 8:16 pm

Holy cow! lol! lol! lol!

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 21 VNe11x0

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Post by vinventure12 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 8:33 pm

I saw something on tumblr and someone was saying that there is a rumor floating around that LF wants to redo The Rise of Kylo Ren comics and push back the release of the other issues so they can change what happens in it, making it align to the movie. Now, in the past, I didn't give any credence to rumors. Than the leaks happened, which happened to have the major plot points of the movie (except emotional context and Reylo) and now I find myself giving rumors a little bit of a chance. Anyone know about this? Cause if this is true... my god, I will riot. What would be changed would be how Ben didn't light the academy on fire and didn't kill the students. I haven't read the comic, but is it really true he didn't kill the students there? I don't have it in me to read it. I was going to after the movie, but you know, the movie pissed me off and made me not want to.

Another thing that kind of makes me lean toward believing LF would do this is because in the VD – which someone took pics of and posted to twitter – it said that Ben burned Luke's academy to the ground, contradicting the comic book. If they paint Ben to be this two-dimensional villain... I just can't. My heart!
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Post by rey09 on Fri 27 Dec 2019, 8:56 pm

@vinventure12 wrote:I saw something on tumblr and someone was saying that there is a rumor floating around that LF wants to redo The Rise of Kylo Ren comics and push back the release of the other issues so they can change what happens in it, making it align to the movie. Now, in the past, I didn't give any credence to rumors. Than the leaks happened, which happened to have the major plot points of the movie (except emotional context and Reylo) and now I find myself giving rumors a little bit of a chance. Anyone know about this? Cause if this is true... my god, I will riot. What would be changed would be how Ben didn't light the academy on fire and didn't kill the students. I haven't read the comic, but is it really true he didn't kill the students there? I don't have it in me to read it. I was going to after the movie, but you know, the movie pissed me off and made me not want to.

Another thing that kind of makes me lean toward believing LF would do this is because in the VD – which someone took pics of and posted to twitter – it said that Ben burned Luke's academy to the ground, contradicting the comic book. If they paint Ben to be this two-dimensional villain... I just can't. My heart!
@vinventure12

I just wrote something in another thread, but they can do whatever the hell they want, but they can never take away his last moment- his selfless act for his one true love. Everything else before is irrelevant.

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