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difference in force use observation // faith

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Post by guardienne on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:31 am

it's interested me that rey keeps calling on the other jedi for strength, when kylo ben doesn't.

i mean, i reckon, having palpatine expose his ancestor worship as fake, it's probably not something he wants to rely on, or finds comforting anymore.

but it struck me how much rey seeks the other jedi, and i wonder if that is down to a difference between luke and leia teaching? or something else?

basically, i keep listening to this song



and it's the line 'i don't believe in god, so i can't be saved' that struck me, because, did kylo ren ever actually *believe*? i guess force use or being force sensitive in their universe is not something you have to believe in necessarily, you feel it or you don't.

so i wonder if maybe it could be construed as a dark side thing, being self-reliant.

any thoughts?
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Post by special_cases on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:56 am

Seems like Ben was calling his grandfather but Anakin decided to call back only to Rey.

Palpatine "replied" to Ben as the Devil can make look himself as God to make person believe in "wrong" things. Also seems that Ben lost his "belief" in the Light Side (not very correct way to word it) when Luke lost belief in Ben and the Force - when Ben saw him trying to kill him.
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Post by Atenais on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 4:01 pm

@guardienne wrote:it's interested me that rey keeps calling on the other jedi for strength, when kylo ben doesn't.

i mean, i reckon, having palpatine expose his ancestor worship as fake, it's probably not something he wants to rely on, or finds comforting anymore.

but it struck me how much rey seeks the other jedi, and i wonder if that is down to a difference between luke and leia teaching? or something else?

basically, i keep listening to this song



and it's the line 'i don't believe in god, so i can't be saved' that struck me, because, did kylo ren ever actually *believe*? i guess force use or being force sensitive in their universe is not something you have to believe in necessarily, you feel it or you don't.

so i wonder if maybe it could be construed as a dark side thing, being self-reliant.

any thoughts?
@guardienne

I really didn't understand that part, because it felt forced and out of context. Rey never cared about the old jedis before and suddenly she was calling them. It felt as something they decided in the last minute, to validate her being the heir of Skywalker legacy.
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Post by Kessel on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:48 pm

@special_cases wrote:Seems like Ben was calling his grandfather but Anakin decided to call back only to Rey.

Palpatine "replied" to Ben as the Devil can make look himself as God to make person believe in "wrong" things. Also seems that Ben lost his "belief" in the Light Side (not very correct way to word it) when Luke lost belief in Ben and the Force - when Ben saw him trying to kill him.
@special_cases

I agree with you about Ben losing his belief in the light side when he fell and that would make him unlikely to communicate with any Jedi. However, once he came back to the light, it would have been poignant to have him call on them with Rey. It would acknowledge his acceptance of his past and family.  I just really think it should have been both Rey and Ben fighting against Palpatine.

The bolded is one of the things that most bothers me about TROS (other than Ben’s death). Darth Sidious impersonated Anakin/Vader for years and manipulated his grandson, yet Ben gets radio silence from Anakin’s Force ghost. Then Rey calls him and we hear him directly answer her. JJ really dropped the ball by not having Anakin acknowledge Ben in some way. I hope we get some kind of explanation.  Maybe Ben couldn’t see Anakin’s Force ghost while he was on the dark side? Just something so it doesn’t seem like Anakin was just ignoring Palpatine’s manipulation of Ben.

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Post by guardienne on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 1:52 am

@Atenais she's the one who saves all the old books from ach-to?
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Post by Atenais on Sun 05 Jan 2020, 11:59 am

@guardienne wrote:@Atenais she's the one who saves all the old books from ach-to?
@guardienne

More like stole them. Anyway, I don't remember on SW lore about an apprentice calling all the jedis. It felt weird. Just my understanding.
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Post by guardienne on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 11:16 am

@Atenais either way she's interested in the past of the jedi, or any sense of history.

i remember thinking that kylo ren had similar ambitions? (it's probably in some ancillary material).

@Kessel i mean, in the end it all just boils down to bad writing ... but.

i do wonder if it's just not a dark side thing, to call for support? i'm not learned in the ways of satanism et al, but it's the whole solitary thing? like the way sith apprentices always kill their master or whatever, some kind of absolute self-reliance.

but then obviously he does call on darth vader (not anakin) ... might that be the reason anakin gave him radio silence? that sounds really callous.

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