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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by reylo1992 on Thu 02 Jan 2020, 9:57 pm

@vinventure12 wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:
@Piper Maru wrote:Only good comment on that embarrassing article was about the kiss. I can see some people annoyed by it, but I liked it. Yes, it's in the movie because it felt natural to the characters and their dynamic. End of story.

Also lol at JJ for sending Maryann and Terrio to give interviews because he's aware he made a s*** film and doesn't know how to explain himself.
@Piper Maru

It felt natural for some people and not for others. As I just wrote in the "GA/family comment", I sat between my oldes bro and my best frienv during the second viewing. My oldest bro - who doesn't mind Reylo - told me he didn't feel  the kiss was necessary. As for my best friend, I felt he was surprised during this moment. Maybe it's due to the French translation and tone. I've never felt that Reylo sounded as romantic as the original version in French. One thing that I take from many reaction from closed ones and on social medias is that some people feel the romantic vibe, others don't. The romantic vibe is so underlying even in this movie that it doesn't scream romance for many people, more like romantic potential for some or just yin/yang dynamic for others. The moment where romantic potential really shows up is when Rey breaks in tears confessing "I wanted to take your hand, Ben's hand". The rest is rather underlying because they made it all unspoken. Thus, it's easy not to get any romantic vibe from their previous exchanges in TROS.  
@reylo1992

I agree it was not well-executed but at this point I just don't care anymore. They had the guts to do it and stand by it, and it's the least they could do.

And anecdotal evidence for this film varies a lot, because the film was made with no purpose or clear narrative, so the audience reactions are basically reactions you get from a Rorschach test.
@Piper Maru

I was really hoping this movie wouldn't be a Rorschach test – kind of like how TLJ was – but alas, that's what it turned out to be. Some people saw and felt the underlying romance, some didn't. Now there is always going to be a debate in the fandom whether Reylo needed to end romantic as it did or not. Or if the kiss is even romantic in nature, which I've seen some people say it's more of a platonic kiss... whatever that means. I just don't understand how you can start a story without knowing where you're going with it. For it to be coherent, you need to keep your ending in sight so the story doesn't go all over the place. Has anyone seen the interview with AD where he said he didn't even know what the ending was going to be? Was he talking about while filming TROS he didn't know where it was leading to, or just when they pitched him the part of Kylo six years ago, he didn't know how his character arc would end?
@vinventure12

Adam knew where his arc was going up to the beginning of Episode IX. Can we reproach them not to have a clear idea and is it really the case? I personally don't see in what TROS is totally incoherent with the rest of the ST and the franchise in general. From what I understand, they knew right away that there would be an "interesting relationship" between Kylo and Rey and that it would be the heart of the ST, which it definitely was. That's where TLJ pointed us after TFA and where the story was with TROS. The major difference with TROS is that TROS focused much more on Rey's journey, showing that Kylo was an important part of this journey but not the only one like in TLJ where she was mostly isolated with him. I understand the choice to stress that she had other important relationship than Kylo and that it wasn't an exclusive relationship where she would have been  isolated by/with him. Recently I read an intereting article about how Kylo is the personification of people suffering of addiction and how his loneliness is a big clue to that. Loneliness can trigger addiction and it also encourages it greatly. Kylo is the typical guy who deep inside certainly wants to break free, doesn't find the strenghth to and his loneliness doesn't help him to deal with his dark side. I get why people are upset that Rey got to spend so much time with other people than him but I guess it was important to show that she could rely on other people to keep her emotional balance, especially when Kylo was trying to draw her to his side because he doesn't think he belongs to any other place than the dark side. There were definitely subtle romantic hints in TFA but was it meant to be overtly romantic later or simply be a manifestation of the yin/yang connection? It seems that we analyzed well the movies since we were right about the heart of the story but in the end the subtle hints could also have another meaning than romance. That's why I don't really understand why people are so upset. Unless you see two people clearly confess, making out or lay down, you can never be sure of what exactly a subtle hint meant. It's exactly the same issue with people who thought Rey should be related to X, Y or Z based on certain paralels and get mad at DLF because for them these parallels couldn't have any other meaning than parentage thus DLF gets accused of playing with fans's emotions. As much as I understand that fans - including Reylos - are upset about TROS for reason X,Y or Z, it's a fiction in the end. The writers have no obligation to follow a certain path 'til the end just because people who interpreted things a certain way will be upset not to get exactly what they believe the hints point to. The fact that they got these two to kiss shows that DLF had balls given Kwlo's arc, in a US political context that must be not so easy to deal with.   

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Last edited by reylo1992 on Thu 02 Jan 2020, 10:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by special_cases on Thu 02 Jan 2020, 10:02 pm

@reylo1992 I simply can't imagine how SW is suitable for subtle hints when it comes to central dynamic with protagonist and antagonist. TLJ suffered from this too but at least it was balanced by absense of explicit antagonism between Rey and Kylo via duels. TROS shows Rey and Kylo fighting again and refuse to put their emotional struggles about each other front and center. 95% of interactions are expositions about Rey's parentage and callbacks to previous dialogues which would have landed better if there was new dialogue that serves as character development.

The biggest problem of TROS is absurd plotblocking which I call in this case Plot Strikes Back because the structure in this movie is reduced to endless amusement park journey where you discover new shiny toy every three minutes and drop old toy for it. It builds more and more questions even when it tries to provide answers. Ironically Lost had the same problem, but it was satisfying in the beginning of the show and as expected, it couldn't deliver answers and conclusions in the finale to everything it previously built. JJ is allergic to emotionally broad simple stories because they require thoughtful in-story developments and they don't rely on endless intrigue.
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Post by californiagirl on Thu 02 Jan 2020, 11:22 pm

I know the fact they weren't committed to the kiss from the beginning is upsetting some, but that's actually better than I was expecting. Given the nature of most of TROS, right down to Rey Skywalker, I had recently seen discussion that the kiss might just be another tick-off-the-box fanservice moment, almost like it's significance was an accident. Like it was just so it could make another group of people happy without putting any actual thought behind it. However, the way they phrase it here sounds like it was something they consciously thought about the whole time. Agree that the actors were probably what put it over the edge. In a film that was so indecisive and couldn't really take a side on many things, that fact they did it and with intention, when I think they knew it would put some people off or upset them, is strangely a win for them. Even before the leaks, there was much discussion about if they would wimp out and not make the romance overt. It's not even ambiguous anymore, someone please explain how the kiss is "platonic" or "familial." lol.

I've seen interviews with Maryann before, but I've never seen an editor get this much press duty before, let alone in lieu of the actual director/producer/co-writer. I get that she's a useful JJ stand-in because she's worked on his stuff for nearly two decades, but JJ is arguably more famous than her and Terrio put together, and he's just nowhere to be found.

Wishful thinking, I'd LOVE to hear Kasdan's thoughts about TROS.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 7:14 am

@californiagirl wrote:I know the fact they weren't committed to the kiss from the beginning is upsetting some, but that's actually better than I was expecting. Given the nature of most of TROS, right down to Rey Skywalker, I had recently seen discussion that the kiss might just be another tick-off-the-box fanservice moment, almost like it's significance was an accident. Like it was just so it could make another group of people happy without putting any actual thought behind it. However, the way they phrase it here sounds like it was something they consciously thought about the whole time. Agree that the actors were probably what put it over the edge. In a film that was so indecisive and couldn't really take a side on many things, that fact they did it and with intention, when I think they knew it would put some people off or upset them, is strangely a win for them. Even before the leaks, there was much discussion about if they would wimp out and not make the romance overt. It's not even ambiguous anymore, someone please explain how the kiss is "platonic" or "familial." lol.

I've seen interviews with Maryann before, but I've never seen an editor get this much press duty before, let alone in lieu of the actual director/producer/co-writer. I get that she's a useful JJ stand-in because she's worked on his stuff for nearly two decades, but JJ is arguably more famous than her and Terrio put together, and he's just nowhere to be found.

Wishful thinking, I'd LOVE to hear Kasdan's thoughts about TROS.
@californiagirl

Excellent perspective about the kiss (thank you!).

Grateful to Adam and Daisy!

I love the jokes I've seen here and there about Adam sweating because he had to keep the kiss tame (we've seen footage, he's a kiss master! lol) Very Happy Smile
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Post by fuhry on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 8:56 am

To those expressing astonishment that someone could make a movie without a clear idea of where it was going, I mean, I think J.J. operates that way, and it's good for drawing fans in and he makes a fun movie, but it's not so good for wrapping up a story and making the whole thing make sense. TROS just short-armed the explanations for the various mystery boxes. In retrospect, I'm not surprised.

I'm also not surprised that there were a lot of decisions made in the edit, and I think J.J. intentionally shoots that way to create maximum flexibility to move the story around. I think he did that in TFA and that's why he ended up with all that leftover Leia footage.

What's maddening about the whole thing is that J.J. creates this fascinating, compelling world that makes you wonder "What's the story behind all this?" That's really close to what ANH did. Yes, it's good characters and action and drama and fun, but it also teased this history and mystery. In that sense, it was brilliant to have J.J. start this thing, but less so to have him finish it. But I think they got cold feet on Treverrow and bringing J.J. back was kind of the safe choice. He did an OK job... thanks for the kiss..., but .. it's kind of like your parents tell you they're getting you the greatest Christmas present ever, they start talking about it in January, you wait all year, and then you open it and it's just something normal like an xbox. I think the really bold choice would have been to have Filoni do it. But it's also really fascinating to think of what RJ would have done.

I'm looking forward to the tell all book or documentary about this whole process.
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Post by Atenais on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 4:27 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey Hey, I was not talking about you specifically. I wasn't even trying to be negative, I was being more realistic and talking about the leaks only in that specific threat. TBH, your positivity was refreshing.

I'm not trying to justify my opinion and I'm not trying to change people's perspective about the movie. I wish I had enjoyed the movie, I even bought a TROS t-shirt for the screening. I'm disappointed because I cared about this trilogy a lot. Because I really cared about these characters. I'm not trying to say that people shouldn't enjoy it, watching a movie is a very personal experience.

I'm not being petty, I found the movie bad, because the dialogue is terrible, the plot seems like a videogame plot (find this to go to there, to find this to... etc...). Maybe, if I wasn't a fan of this trilogy I would enjoy this movie, but since I am a fan, I had expectations.

What's maddening about the whole thing is that J.J. creates this fascinating, compelling world that makes you wonder "What's the story behind all this?"

@fuhry

That's it, I'm mad because this very reason. Because the story was so promising. People are free to feel what they want. And that's ok too.
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Post by rey09 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 5:19 pm

Has anyone read the reddit points from who knows about the cuts? They are saying JJ didn't want the kiss but Maryann's quote suggests otherwise. Apparently rey and kylo talked for 2 min after she comes back but no kiss. And apparently he was always meant to die. On the plus, there were more heart to heart reylo scenes.

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Post by snufkin on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 7:01 pm

If the plan all along was for Ben to die, welp that's a pretty sh**ty plan. Because they knew that the original family members were all going to die. Let alone the amount of details dropped through the prior two films and Solo about "too much of his father's heart in him," "my son is alive," the Son/Sun, hope for the future et cetera. Unless this is an example of where there was a split between LF/SG with the studio in terms of decision making. Because otherwise why make him Han and Leia's son if the plan was to kill off the character? They may as well have it be Rey Solo and the Jedi Killer.
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Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 7:33 pm

Not to mention all the promises about the Baby Ben rollout etc...they even put him in a diaper... and then the Rise of Kylo Ren comic promising that he was innocent of the temple massacre and just basic promo about Ben Solo.... all of that happened, and then this? Doesn't compute.
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Post by rey09 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 7:40 pm

@snufkin wrote:Because otherwise why make him Han and Leia's son if the plan was to kill off the character? They may as well have it be Rey Solo and the Jedi Killer.
@snufkin

THIS. Ben Solo was utterly pointless. The whole story is a sadistic mess.


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Post by snufkin on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 7:59 pm

@rey09 I guess Kasdan father and son and Harrison Ford all went to the premiere. Wouldn't you love to have been a fly on the wall with the conversation afterwards, "Our bad, we killed off the character you two wrote as a touching reconciliation between estranged father and son and after your oldest son." Even with the novels and world/character building - they just wiped out the EU to create a whole new timeline and history but now same thing here? Even with Rey's whole "full picture" now there's some nonsense about who her parents were on top of "the Emperor returned, somehow" (Oscar was channeling Llewelyn Davis in that moment) that sounds like a mess after all that world building.

The thing is, from a business standpoint it makes zero f**king sense. They have the actor of the moment playing a character who's become iconic and gets the most/love attention from the type of fans they should want to build loyalty in (e.g. ones who are younger, female, who have disposable income and who aren't idiots like the dudes who got offended by Rey or TLJ having too many ladies with opinions). If they had either some corporate mandate or directors wild hair that the ending had to be "Yay Team! Group Hug!" and then "Rey's opening an AirBnB at the Lars Homestead shots" for nostalgia jerk offs, then all they have to do is send Ben on his way after a bittersweet goodbye with Rey. No need to evaporate him off to the Disney vault and he can come back later for novels/games/comics without some convoluted nonsense like Darth Maul.
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Post by Birdwoman on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 8:34 pm

Has the writers, director and editors even talk about Ben's fate? Or why they chose to kill him off?

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Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 8:45 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:Has the writers, director and editors even talk about Ben's fate? Or why they chose to kill him off?
@Birdwoman

Nope. Nothing about that YET. We shall see. Oh, maybe the Chris Terrio article. I'd check that but I haven't been able to make myself read it in the full.

@snufkin -- I heard that Harrison and Adam arrived together at the premiere. No idea if the Kasdans went.
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 8:58 pm

The lack of talking about Ben's death is certainly interesting. It might be as simple as "we did a massive boo-boo and don't want to talk about it," or are they hiding something? It could very well be that the actual drafts of TROS always had him dying, but as with so many things about this film, it might also have gone against the intentions or plans of the earlier films. I don't see it as sadistic because I don't really see anyone reveling in watching Ben and the Skywalkers suffer, and moreover, that would indicate a certain amount of thought behind it, which I'm not sure there is.
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Post by Mila95 on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 9:45 pm

I think the lack of talking about Ben is partly because it ruins the happy ending they're trying to sell if Rey actually voices that she suffered a great loss and partly because I feel like they believe Ben dying after doing a heroic thing, getting a kiss and feeling happy isn't something bad at all. Like the impression I get from their interviews is that of course a redeemed character can't live, that would be too bold and different but he got a "nice death" so it's the best that could possibly be expected, no need to mourn on screen.


As to why they didn't just have him leave into exile and keep things open for books and comics and least if Adam won't return, I really don't get. I feel like it's mostly cause of Rey Skywalker ending but even there he's a Solo so he doesn't take that from her. Unless they're really obsessed with Rey being the only connection left to the Skywalkers which maybe, who knows. The whole movie felt like they really wanted to push the trio and minimize Ben as much as possible for such an important character so I wouldn't be surprised if his death fell into that as well, like a way to eliminate the more popular characters and give others the spotlight.

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Post by Saracene on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 9:48 pm

I'm sure that if they do talk about Ben's death, it will be about how meaningful and beautiful his ultimate sacrifice is and how great it is for him to be finally redeemed and reunited with his mother, etc. etc. They'll never directly address the question of why they killed him off.

Personally I'm convinced that Ben's death had little to do with Ben himself, and it's all about where they wanted Rey to end up, a single Jedi warrior who inherits the Skywalker mantle after the entire family is gone. Everything is basically wrapped around her character.
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Post by Atenais on Fri 03 Jan 2020, 11:20 pm

@Saracene wrote:I'm sure that if they do talk about Ben's death, it will be about how meaningful and beautiful his ultimate sacrifice is and how great it is for him to be finally redeemed and reunited with his mother, etc. etc. They'll never directly address the question of why they killed him off.

Personally I'm convinced that Ben's death had little to do with Ben himself, and it's all about where they wanted Rey to end up, a single Jedi warrior who inherits the Skywalker mantle after the entire family is gone. Everything is basically wrapped around her character.
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Agree. And that's why his death feels so empty.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 12:50 am

@Dar-ren19 Could swear I saw the Kasdans listed as being at the premiere. Which that's a story right there, him turning away an uninvited messenger with what was likely a copy of this script asking for help.

Judging from the damage control interviews in the past week from Chris Terrio and Maryanne Braeden, any statement about why Ben dies would be equally as frustrating/word salad and just set off people who are already upset. Especially given her quote that "oh I guess when Ben dies it's nice because he's off with his mother" when uh, the whole point of her interview was in response to sharp eyed fans figuring out that the ending scene with our Holy Twins of Bad Religious Art was repurposed footage of Rey on Pasaana. Like I said, he was whisked off stage b/c they didn't know what to do with him in order to have Rey's "sad strong female character" ending moments with "YAY TEAM!" (WTF was she hugging Finn and Poe, who were obnoxious/condescending to her the entire movie?) and then the absolutely cringe worthy Rey Skywalker ending. Also completely cynical answer but some idiot with the authority to make that call watched Wonder Woman and their takeaway wasn't about the female gaze in movies or anything Patty Jenkins has said. It was to wholesale rip off the climax with the villainous relative reveal and self-sacrificing male love interest.
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Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 1:11 am

@Mila95 wrote:I think the lack of talking about Ben is partly because it ruins the happy ending they're trying to sell if Rey actually voices that she suffered a great loss and partly because I feel like they believe Ben dying after doing a heroic thing, getting a kiss and feeling happy isn't something bad at all. Like the impression I get from their interviews is that of course a redeemed character can't live, that would be too bold and different but he got a "nice death" so it's the best that could possibly be expected, no need to mourn on screen.


As to why they didn't just have him leave into exile and keep things open for books and comics and least if Adam won't return, I really don't get. I feel like it's mostly cause of Rey Skywalker ending but even there he's a Solo so he doesn't take that from her. Unless they're really obsessed with Rey being the only connection left to the Skywalkers which maybe, who knows. The whole movie felt like they really wanted to push the trio and minimize Ben as much as possible for such an important character so I wouldn't be surprised if his death fell into that as well, like a way to eliminate the more popular characters and give others the spotlight.
@Mila95

Yeah, he's a Solo but the fact is that THEY were the ones to make the final point of him being a Skywalker (just before Palpy throws him down the pit)... AND the movies (Solo) made sure to retcon Han Solo's last name to ensure that it's not really his name. So, in the end, they are the ones telling us that Ben is a Skywalker for what it's worth.

@snufkin -- quick question: where did that story come from? The one about Kasdan returning the TROS script unopened? Do you remember?
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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 1:48 am

Oh you guys...my teenage daughter, who is a Reylo, is finally going to see it tomorrow. Long story about why it’s taken over two weeks, but basically final exams, out of town vacation, and waiting for a friend who then went and saw it without her anyway. She has a debate with a different friend— she’s convinced there will be an epic kiss, and an epilogue with Reylo babies. Her friend thinks Kylo will die. So....yeah.

I’ve kept my mouth shut. I had the worst time putting on my poker face the night I saw it (she was studying for tests) to avoid spoiling anything.

I’m not looking forward to her finding out what we already know. I’ve been wishing she would just go and get it over with. And it’s not great feeling like that about a Star Wars movie— I tried so hard to be positive in the face of the leaks.
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Post by cherrylipstick on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:04 am

Even if they were obsessed with the magical trio or with Rey's celebration, the treatment they reserved to Ben is too weird anyway.
If his death was the original plan, why don't make it  more epic? Would it really have overshadowed Rey? They were really that scared? Rolling Eyes
When Vader sacrificed himself to help his son was a beautiful and touching moment that gave sense to the story and it didn't diminished Luke's role. Quite the opposite. Also the FG appearance at the end was an emotional touch.
But with this movie we have none of this, everything at the end went so flat and fast that it looks almost comical. I swear I heard people laughing during that scene.
So if that was the original decision and all they could get after years of work was THAT scene... well then my opinion about them as writers is even worse. I rather think that they changed something lastminute beacuse this way they have at least some kind of excuse Laughing

I will never understand how in the world writers and professionals that earn tons of money were able to be ok with such a poorly made scene, really, it's beyond my understanding.

And I'm just talking about what happened in the movie. I'm not talking about this strange commercial strategy that killed the most popular character and is based solely on characters that I doubt will be able to carry the brand in the future. This is also a really weird move, but this is an entirely different question. It's better if I stop here Laughing
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:08 am

@Dar-ren19 The same film/writing conference in Austin that the GoT dudes shot off their mouths about how "this was like our film school" and it was announced the following day that they were no longer going to be doing a Star War. Kasdan was another featured speaker and IIRC was asked about Star Wars during the Q&A in which he mentioned that the studio screwed up Solo (which his comment was "which that's not unusual.") and that while he was 100% cognizant and appreciative of the privilege he's had writing 4 films for the franchise, that he was ready to get back to directing because it's what he really enjoys. During the course of these comments he mentioned that a script was hand delivered to his house by a messenger and that he sent them away without looking at it because of the aforementioned wanting to move on to do other types of projects. If I had to guess my bet is that it wasn't a script for The Mandolorean which was delivered unsolicited to his house asking for help.

@Lily Snape : ( - If she's going with somebody who's already seen the movie, I think you'd be in the clear sitting her down and breaking the news.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:17 am

@cherrylipstick wrote:Even if they were obsessed with the magical trio or with Rey's celebration, the treatment they reserved to Ben is too weird anyway.
If his death was the original plan, why don't make it  more epic? Would it really have overshadowed Rey? They were really that scared? Rolling Eyes
When Vader sacrificed himself to help his son was a beautiful and touching moment that gave sense to the story and it didn't diminished Luke's role. Quite the opposite. Also the FG appearance at the end was an emotional touch.
But with this movie we have none of this, everything at the end went so flat and fast that it looks almost comical. I swear I heard people laughing during that scene.
@cherrylipstick

Padme's death in RotS - yes even including that ridiculous NOOOOOOOOOO and her "losing the will to live" - was still better handled than Ben's Rolling Eyes Evil or Very Mad
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Post by cherrylipstick on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:23 am

@Saracene wrote:
@cherrylipstick wrote:Even if they were obsessed with the magical trio or with Rey's celebration, the treatment they reserved to Ben is too weird anyway.
If his death was the original plan, why don't make it  more epic? Would it really have overshadowed Rey? They were really that scared? Rolling Eyes
When Vader sacrificed himself to help his son was a beautiful and touching moment that gave sense to the story and it didn't diminished Luke's role. Quite the opposite. Also the FG appearance at the end was an emotional touch.
But with this movie we have none of this, everything at the end went so flat and fast that it looks almost comical. I swear I heard people laughing during that scene.
@cherrylipstick

Padme's death in RotS - yes even including that ridiculous NOOOOOOOOOO and her "losing the will to live" - was still better handled than Ben's Rolling Eyes Evil or Very Mad
@Saracene

Oh definitely!
Never thought that I would say this, since I've never been a huge PT fan, but in the end they were better. At least they followed a clear path, this trilogy with this last movie on the contrary seems the representation of randomness  Rolling Eyes
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Post by special_cases on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:46 am

Padme's death at least provides meaningful symbolism to Anakin's death/"Vader is born" moment via visual storytelling. While it reduces Padme's personal story to prop for Anakin's transformation and fall, it affects the story in a big way and the narrative acknowledges it. Ben vanishing is like "Oh welp he is dead, anyway we won let's move on, who was that Ben??? I don't know him".

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