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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 2:49 pm

@guardienne I saw her say she will never do a video on TLJ, which she really liked. She did one on the FO in TFA and TLJ, but I don't think she's invested enough in SW to do something like this, at least not for a long time. She did rip the film on Twitter though, lol. She likes to have lots of sources and a full story, and there's just too many missing pieces from the puzzle to make a definitive narrative about, at least right now.
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Post by fuhry on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 3:04 pm

The more I think about it, I think the intention might have been that Ben's personality and soul went and shared Rey's body. He gave so much of himself healing her that part of him literally lives in her. Then it would make sense that she went to Tatooine, used the Skywalker name, and left Finn and Poe and the Resistance behind and it would also make sense that she doesn't seem to mourn, and we don't see Ben's ghost.

That of course, would require some exposition, which we didn't get. There was a clue about a little bit of Rey's life going to heal the snake. Maybe Ben had to give his entire life to bring Rey back from all the way dead.

That would have been something that made a bit of sense and which it would have been nice to spend more time on rather than learning about Poe's sordid past which has little bearing on the story.
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Post by Atenais on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 3:37 pm

@Birdwoman wrote:I was telling my husband about how TROS is so different from the other products LF is putting out that I suspect the creative teams and higher ups at LF were cut out of having any say over the story. I guess one day we will find out.
I also showed him a clip of the Rey and Kylo scene where she stabs him, heals him and declares her love for him. I told him she showed more emotion in that scene than she did when he died after having her first kiss. That is the fault of crappy storytelling, directing and editing.
@Birdwoman

Oh, that's it. Now I know why his death scene bugged me so much, it's because the scene - when she stabbed him - was so much more emotional, she was truly devastated. It's like this movie was always deconstructing its own 'dramaticity', e.g. the dead characters that aren't dead afterall.

@SkyStar wrote:Yesterday I watched it for the second time and it felt like a terrible bore. At least TLJ was more interesting because of the cinematography and the scenes are much more suspenseful- I would take Kylo vs Snoke over Rey vs Palpatine anytime. Also there is something bugging me and that is how many similar scenes there are to TLJ - like the red beads on the white floor vs wounds on Crait, the way Palpatine holds Rey and Kylo up in the air, the mirror scene vs the cave scene in TLJ. Like a poor copy without substance.
@SkyStar

Also, when Kylo and Rey were fighting for the ship (Chewie was in) it was like a repetition of their last scene in the throne room, when they were fighting for the lightsaber. Seems that JJ and Terrio think that if you make things bigger they get better. lol

@californiagirl wrote:It's so wildly offbase, it's hard to reconcile or even process. Like, where did this come from, also how, also why. In a sea of massive blockbusters and franchises and megacorporations, I was hoping that SW could hold out until at least the end of the ST, that it could be the special one. I wanted it to be glorious for everyone, but it ended up being fascinating in all the wrong ways. Like, I need a fully-documented autopsy of this thing.
@californiagirl

I would love to know what really happened BTS, I would like to know the response of the actors after reading the script. And it's very melancholic that I care more about the BTS stories than about the story itself. I simply don't care anymore. I believe people need some kind of closure, but I can't even bother to ask things to LF people, because I don't believe them anymore. I know that they - the corporations - have no respect about the story, the saga. So, maybe these guys will explain something that will be retconned the next movie. So, why worry? That's really sad.
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Post by lauvamp on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 3:47 pm

Still can't understand the reason of creating the "dyad" or even mentioning it, what was the reason? to resurrect Rey? looks like the prophecy means nothing after all......that's sad!
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Post by snufkin on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 4:04 pm

It definitely feels like there was a tug of war in terms of ideas happening about "this will make things right." Because part of what fascinated me was seeing how the ST tried to grapple in TFA and TLJ with the ramifications of merging Leia with the character Lucas had intended for the later chapters, Luke's twin sister Nellith because he wanted to wrap things up. As well as there being elements in Rey and Ben's relationship which appeared fairly close to the original story/script transcripts of Kasdan and Lucas discussing who Luke and Leia's parents were and what had torn their relationship apart.  Part of what's so jarring about this final chapter is that it feels more like self indulgent nostalgia/homage and the ironic part is that it's written by people who were children during the time of the OT, versus the more serious and "let's figure this out/resolve it finally" impulse seems to have come from Kasdan and Lucas.

Also in regards to nostalgia, it's overtly about playing to the nostalgia of grown adults versus how the excitement/appeal of the OT was pitched to children and about possibility/creativity/opportunity. The way it ends the story, especially for Rey, takes her from being somebody who goes from being naive/outside a story to somebody who examines the truth ("Sometimes you meet heroes and they're not who you thought they'd be") and learns to make sense of it and what's of value to them going forward." It's not an easy thing to hear, either as a child or as an adult. But the entire business of Rey trying to find answers and it changing from "you're going to have to make sense out what you know but mostly you have to figure things out using your own mind and heart" to "we're giving you an answer that you just have to keep reacting to" rings false. Nothing really changes for Rey learning through literal exposition ad naseaum what happened to her parents versus how what really changes her is getting the answer to what Han told her in the opening chapter about "One Boy Who Destroyed It All" and facing what she'd shut herself off from by refusing to admit what had happened with her parents.
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Post by Atenais on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 7:19 pm

This movie is unbelievable.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 6 Rose10

And they lOvEd RoSe So MuCh.

Source: twitter
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Post by Armadeus on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 7:46 pm

@Atenais

It's getting to the point that I'd prefer it they just came out and said 'we didn't care about Rose because we didn't create her.' At least we'd get some honesty for a change.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 7:58 pm

@Atenais I saw this a while back, yeah, they were just so, so not good to Rose. KMT is such a trooper. Truly the weirdest press tour in hindsight, what movie were they talking about.

Seeing a couple of notes about how good Rey's reaction was after stabbing Kylo. Really one of Daisy's finest acting moments in the whole trilogy, she's absolutely shattered. That's one of two things I just can't forgive the leaks for. One being "never to be seen again" until just a couple of weeks out, the other being "Rey heals the stab wound she gave Kylo out of spite to prove she's better than him." What even. Actually ended up being one of my favorite moments in TROS. Just wish it had happened earlier in the film.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 8:00 pm

@Atenais @Armadeus Yeah that detail plus Chris Terrio inserting himself into the writing and his self-indulgent introduction is where it really got into JJ treated part of this production as doling out perks to various friends and favored colleagues. The fact that they created a Basil Exposition-Mansplaining character played by one of JJ's pals who won a World Cup bet when they had a better character (and LBR, she's a better actor than "I played that guy in the Hobbit and Lost") handed to them on a plate but somehow couldn't imagine what to write says a lot. Either about their lack of imagination or about the studio doing the bare a** minimum to protect itself from a racial discrimination lawsuit.
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Post by Nyx on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 8:00 pm

This is so sad. TROS is like a wound that just wont close. 3 weeks later and every day something new and disappointing pops up.

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Post by snufkin on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 8:14 pm

I would love it if one of those interviews where Chris Terrio stuck his foot in his mouth after the movie came out (everything beforehand sounded fine because everybody assumed the movie would be good) had cornered him on his involvement in the Visual Dictionary when neither Kasdan nor Rian played a role for the prior productions. Because now there's this detail about Rey's terrible CGI hood, just read the responses below.
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Post by Armadeus on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 9:57 pm

@snufkin

OMG I thought that hood looked strange... I just couldn't put my finger on it.

Also... just... WHY? Why is it a tribute to Leia? What for? Didn't Jedi used to wear hoods? Couldn't that be an explanation? If it had to be a tribute to anything it could have been a tribute to the Jedi Order. Instead we get this nonsense. No one involved in this movie had a clue what they were doing.
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Post by Mila95 on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:08 pm

They really want to shoehorn how every detail of Rey's existence as a character is a tribute to the OT lol its seriously annoying and stupid plus that hood looked bad anyway

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Post by snufkin on Mon 06 Jan 2020, 10:40 pm

@Armadeus This movie is literally The Onion article about "Cool dad insists on having his daughter listen to his taste in music, making her isolated and out of touch from her peers."  I would love to know if they unconsciously kept throwing in these details because of their own biases and thought "I'd want/love to see that." Or if it was something deliberate because of fanboy backlash and cutting out LF from the decision making process pretty much meant cutting out nearly all the women in the room save for JJ's former PA turned executive producer. And the hood seriously is bad CGI to go with Papa Smurf Luke because it's a last minute extra scene they cobbled together. The close up shot may even be meant to cover up Daisy's post-filming haircut.

Meanwhile I was thinking about a post-mortem in terms of the other two films and Solo in relation to how much the OT3 up until TRoS were like Kasdan's reunited youthful idealists taking stock of how life wears you down in The Big Chill.  Or his TFA statement that he was at a point of stock taking in life where he wondered what he'd learned from his experiences that would be of value/could impart lessons to his grandchildren and "would they even give a sh*t." I'm finding it ironic that the guy who's a senior citizen was able to think in those terms about what the point of writing these characters/stories were versus this production being led by children who were the original intended audience for these characters/stories who simply wished to keep that past static/frozen in amber. Or how the VD has two whole f**king pages for Basil Exposition Hobbit character which includes how being smart and having an education, he has to mansplain the Sacred Texts to Rey. Like something @Piper Maru & I have discussed, how Rian emphasized in universe that the young female protagonist is freed to write her own story/make her own name and steals the actual narrative. Only to have the next pair of writers wrest control back away from her.
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Post by Lily Snape on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 1:28 am

@snufkin wrote:@Armadeus This movie is literally The Onion article about "Cool dad insists on having his daughter listen to his taste in music, making her isolated and out of touch from her peers."  I would love to know if they unconsciously kept throwing in these details because of their own biases and thought "I'd want/love to see that." Or if it was something deliberate because of fanboy backlash and cutting out LF from the decision making process pretty much meant cutting out nearly all the women in the room save for JJ's former PA turned executive producer. And the hood seriously is bad CGI to go with Papa Smurf Luke because it's a last minute extra scene they cobbled together. The close up shot may even be meant to cover up Daisy's post-filming haircut.

Meanwhile I was thinking about a post-mortem in terms of the other two films and Solo in relation to how much the OT3 up until TRoS were like Kasdan's reunited youthful idealists taking stock of how life wears you down in The Big Chill.  Or his TFA statement that he was at a point of stock taking in life where he wondered what he'd learned from his experiences that would be of value/could impart lessons to his grandchildren and "would they even give a sh*t." I'm finding it ironic that the guy who's a senior citizen was able to think in those terms about what the point of writing these characters/stories were versus this production being led by children who were the original intended audience for these characters/stories who simply wished to keep that past static/frozen in amber. Or how the VD has two whole f**king pages for Basil Exposition Hobbit character which includes how being smart and having an education, he has to mansplain the Sacred Texts to Rey. Like something @Piper Maru & I have discussed, how Rian emphasized in universe that the young female protagonist is freed to write her own story/make her own name and steals the actual narrative. Only to have the next pair of writers wrest control back away from her.
@snufkin

As a Gen-Xer who grew up with these films, it feels like a couple of tween boys got together with their action figures and made something up, not like professionals who were paid millions of dollars. Terrio actually sounded smart and informed— he’s a huge disappointment. I mean, I know that “smart and informed” does not necessarily mean “good writer,” because my husband is smart and informed about Star Wars and he would write a screenplay that would read like a D&D campaign...but still.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 1:46 am

At the end of the day, they made the film they wanted.
Terrio decided to put his own personal take on SW on screen. KK wanted Rey as a 'strong independent woman' so she ends up alone. JJ listened to his friends and gave them what they wanted.
The best actor in the film, Adam, had his character shafted. The actor who could have created a genuinely impressive bad guy, Domhnall, had to watch as his character was killed off and someone else played exactly the same type of person. The actress who was the breakout star in TLJ, Kelly, was essentially erased so they could give racists and bigots what they wanted.

Disney and LF are a bunch of cowards, and self servers who have completely destroyed the finest sci to franchise ever because of a bunch of toxic so called fans, snotty movie makers and execs, and over rated actors who make a couple of films and then think they're Laurence Olivier and have the acting chops to alter what is put on screen.

I've lost all respect for the lot of them, while I have nothing but respect for Adam Driver, Domhnall Gleeson and Kelly Tran. All three of them deserved better. Thanks guys for being so terrific in TLJ.
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Post by Forsythia on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 3:27 am

@snufkin wrote:Because now there's this detail about Rey's terrible CGI hood, just read the responses below.  
That's the most ridiculous thing. Rey's costume has the hood from the beginning of the film. Why would she have it to "pay respects to Leia" when Leia was still alive? Why would Rey, who has no connection to Alderaan, wear an Alderaan hood, when Leia never wears one in the entire Sequel trilogy and only had one hooded dress in the OT? How is Rey's hood a traditional Alderaan hood? It's just a simple hood, like the ones worn by the Jedi, Kylo and Palpatine.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 3:55 am

I bet they will say now that Kylo's hood in TFA was a nod to Alderaan hood too. Oh no, Kylo is not a Golden Girl, he is just literally an Alderaan heir and son of Leia.

Luke had Alderaan hood in TLJ too. You get an Alderaan hood, and you get an Alderaan hood. Everybody gets an Alderaan hood!

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Post by Forsythia on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 4:02 am

There's a new interview with the editor where she mentions three scenes that were added in reshoots: https://collider.com/rise-of-skywalker-reshoots-scenes/

1) Rey floating in the air with the rocks as a way to introduce Leia and Rey
2) Poe landing the burning Falcon and arguing with Rey
3) Luke and Rey on the island

The most interesting part is that Rey's conversation with Luke's ghost on Ahch-To was added so late. If this scene didn't exist, how did she get Leia's saber in the first cut? Did she go to Ahch-To on her own and just found the saber or did she get it from Leia? This also explains why in Jedi Praxis' leaks the Luke and Leia training flashback appeared at the beginning of the movie, and it explains the terrible CGI of smurf Luke and Rey's hood.
I'm also surprised, if the scene with Force Ghost Luke didn't exist, did Luke have other scenes? I can't believe that there was a cut where Luke had no lines at all. Maybe his original scenes were part of a storyline that was dropped and they had to make this new scene? Or even worse, what if Force Ghost Luke had scenes with Ben and they dropped it in favour of worthy Rey who needs to get everything that belongs to other people?

This also seems to confirm another thing IMO. Since Jedi Praxis' leaks appear to be a very accurate summary of the earlier cut, I fear that there was never a good ending and that Ben really fell into the pit "never to be seen again". The editor already said in a previous interview that they weren't sure if Rey and Ben would kiss and that would wait to see if it was right for the movie. Maybe they had Ben die by the fall (how could anyone survive that fall and lightning anyway?) and the film ended with the trio in Tatooine, just like the leaks said. Then they decided that Ben's death was too brutal or that they wanted the Reylo kiss, so they added the part where Ben came back, kissed Rey, just to die again. This would also explain why there are no reaction shots or mourning scenes of Rey, because they didn't have time to film them.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 4:35 am

God, reshoots report from the source was legit. I can't f***ing believe it. I have never seen the source having access for all reshoots and additions and edits to the cut. This is insane.

So was JJ leaking it? Or someone from Disney's side?

My bet is on JJ right now. He leaked it himself via second hand source.
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Post by OrionStars on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 5:02 am

@special_cases wrote:God, reshoots report from the source was legit. I can't f***ing believe it. I have never seen the source having access for all reshoots and additions and edits to the cut. This is insane.

So was JJ leaking it? Or someone from Disney's side?

My bet is on JJ right now. He leaked it himself via second hand source.
@special_cases

Yeah, JJ didn't do official test screenings, he did "Reddit test screenings".  Reddit is the best place to go if you want to have ....free marketing by spreading word of mouth. Unfortunately for team JJ and KK, TROS has already caused bad WOM since the day they decided to do Reddit test screenings. I doubt they could expect that because even KK had been convinced that the faux trio could carry SW franchise since 2017.
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Post by lauvamp on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 6:44 am

@Forsythia
When I read the "pit leak" the first time, I totally hated it. In fact, still hate how they threw away the last Skywalker alive only to appear later and die...even if they kissed!!!! It was also sooo disappointing not see him fighting side by side with Rey.

At this point I only want Ben to have a chance, a better closure, better explanations...I've never seen this situation before, after 3 weeks fans still mad at them. Are they going to ignore us?

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 7:53 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@special_cases wrote:God, reshoots report from the source was legit. I can't f***ing believe it. I have never seen the source having access for all reshoots and additions and edits to the cut. This is insane.

So was JJ leaking it? Or someone from Disney's side?

My bet is on JJ right now. He leaked it himself via second hand source.
@special_cases

Yeah, JJ didn't do official test screenings, he did "Reddit test screenings".  Reddit is the best place to go if you want to have ....free marketing by spreading word of mouth. Unfortunately for team JJ and KK, TROS has already caused bad WOM since the day they decided to do Reddit test screenings. I doubt they could expect that because even KK had been convinced that the faux trio could carry SW franchise since 2017.
@OrionStars

If the purpose was for reddit test screenings, I wish he kept the Reylo and Bendemption scenes. If so, my only "what if" with all of this is that more would have believed the leaks (yes, including me), which would then reveal more outrage/negative feedback, and perhaps...maybe...the movie would have been delayed - for half a year, or an entire year - for a better movie (or perhaps cancelled).

This movie was to honor Leia, and without Carrie Fisher (RIP space mom), it wasn't possible. I selfishly wish they now cancelled the movie, and released only the supporting books and comics (the Art of Book would have been more of an extensive summary, bts). Maybe it's a selfless wish, if others agree, if not - it's my confirmation bias.
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Post by Forsythia on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 8:11 am

@OrionStars wrote:
@special_cases wrote:God, reshoots report from the source was legit. I can't f***ing believe it. I have never seen the source having access for all reshoots and additions and edits to the cut. This is insane.

So was JJ leaking it? Or someone from Disney's side?

My bet is on JJ right now. He leaked it himself via second hand source.
@special_cases

Yeah, JJ didn't do official test screenings, he did "Reddit test screenings".  Reddit is the best place to go if you want to have ....free marketing by spreading word of mouth. Unfortunately for team JJ and KK, TROS has already caused bad WOM since the day they decided to do Reddit test screenings. I doubt they could expect that because even KK had been convinced that the faux trio could carry SW franchise since 2017.

I don't understand them. It should have been clear to them from TLJ, that most people were more interested in Rey and Kylo than the fake trio that never even shared scenes in the first two movies and that Kylo/Ben is the most popular character of the trilogy - not because he is cool like Vader, but because people can relate to him and care about him.
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Post by reylo1992 on Tue 07 Jan 2020, 8:16 am

I think the best solution they should have come up with was either to split the movie in two parts and end the first part with the DS fight as the climax of the movie in order to focus more on Rey and Kylo coming together in the second movie. Or dare to release a 3 hours movie, which wouldn't have been a so bad idea for the conclusion of the Skywalker arc.
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