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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by MaddieDove on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 3:15 am

My opinion of George Lucas the screenwriter and director improved a lot after this mess. I seriously think Terrio and Abrams, with the editor, did worse job than Lucas (his visionarism and producing skills were never in doubt, but we all know what was the consensus about him directing and writing the prequels).

So, what about Adam walking spoiler in the promotion? We all speculated that he wasn't there because he would spoil things just by talking about his character - now, in the retrospect, does that make sense? Was he sidelined, or removed himself? Will he talk? He seemed eager at one moment.

And what about the toys? There were Kylo Ren Supreme Leader figures, and the speculation that the huge amount of merchandise waits to be released post premiere? Anybody seen something?

Has someone gone through the teasers and trailers and reevaluated them in light of the movie? Did they "lie" or did they tell the truth about the story?
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 3:29 am

JJ made it clear that he wanted to f*ck the Skywalker saga, he was going to do what he liked, he wasn't going to follow Lucas's rule of a hopeful fairy tale. So TROS is the abomination of what JJ liked, a circus of his pets and his friends. His pet hijacked the Skywalker legacy and became a faux Skywalker.
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 GUi4rHh




Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Yo8h2k10

Unfortunately, due to JJ's incompetence, JJ also turned his favorite pet into a mary sue clown with a meaningless, soulless character arc, but the truth is he did everything he could to make her become the most important and the most powerful character of SW universe, and his pet is still the last living Skywalker anw.
However, JJ already stated that he was never good at endings. So you can't sith on him because he already admitted sincerely that he didn't know how to do it well. At least, from JJ's point of view, he did the best for his pet character and the actress who played the pet character. This is the ultimate power of nepotism.
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 3:53 am

@special_cases wrote:Padme's death at least provides meaningful symbolism to Anakin's death/"Vader is born" moment via visual storytelling. While it reduces Padme's personal story to prop for Anakin's transformation and fall, it affects the story in a big way and the narrative acknowledges it. Ben vanishing is like "Oh welp he is dead, anyway we won let's move on, who was that Ben??? I don't know him".
@special_cases

The lack of acknowledgement bothers me more than the actual death. Whenever a major character dies in SW, the narrative takes time to recognize it and allow the characters to react. Whether it's Padme, Vader, Qui-Gon Jinn, Yoda, or Obi-Wan, the PT and OT took each death seriously and had the ally/friend/family/partner of the dead character react accordingly, depending on their connection. Luke and Leia's deaths in the ST were treated with more recognition as well (edit: and Han's, of course!). A minor character like Paige Tico in TLJ had her sacrifice consistently acknowledged by other characters, including her own sister. Even Snoke, a villain we weren't meant to sympathize or empathize with, gets a moment of Kylo looking over his corpse, and Hux appearing rattled over his death later on.

Ben dies, Rey looks sad and perplexed for a few seconds and that's it. It's so strange, but I'm not supposed to find it strange? Which makes it even stranger. confused

I would've rather had Rey full-on devastated and broken by Ben's death; it would've been tragic, but cathartic and emotionally resonating. But Rey can't be depressed in the end (especially over a formerly villainous male character!), so let's have her smile at FG Luke and Leia instead. That's nice. Neutral
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 4:11 am

@toolonelytosleep wrote:
@special_cases wrote:Padme's death at least provides meaningful symbolism to Anakin's death/"Vader is born" moment via visual storytelling. While it reduces Padme's personal story to prop for Anakin's transformation and fall, it affects the story in a big way and the narrative acknowledges it. Ben vanishing is like "Oh welp he is dead, anyway we won let's move on, who was that Ben??? I don't know him".
@special_cases

The lack of acknowledgement bothers me more than the actual death. Whenever a major character dies in SW, the narrative takes time to recognize it and allow the characters to react. Whether it's Padme, Vader, Qui-Gon Jinn, Yoda, or Obi-Wan, the PT and OT took each death seriously and had the ally/friend/family/partner of the dead character react accordingly, depending on their connection. Luke and Leia's deaths in the ST were treated with more recognition as well (edit: and Han's, of course!). A minor character like Paige Tico in TLJ had her sacrifice consistently acknowledged by other characters, including her own sister. Even Snoke, a villain we weren't meant to sympathize or empathize with, gets a moment of Kylo looking over his corpse, and Hux appearing rattled over his death later on.

Ben dies, Rey looks sad and perplexed for a few seconds and that's it. It's so strange, but I'm not supposed to find it strange? Which makes it even stranger. confused

I would've rather had Rey full-on devastated and broken by Ben's death; it would've been tragic, but cathartic and emotionally resonating. But Rey can't be depressed in the end (especially over a formerly villainous male character!), so let's have her smile at FG Luke and Leia instead. That's nice. Neutral
@toolonelytosleep


It's not strange, because we're all human beings and we have sympathy and compassion. But the problem is JJ didn't allow and didn't want us to mourn for Ben's death, JJ's intention is "we have to focus on and celebrate the victory of Rey Palwalker and the faux trio".


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Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:02 am

Yeah, and the fact the JJ has been hiding out and sending out his co-writer and editor to answer the questions tells you he knows how bad he messed up.

@snufkin - thanks much for the retread. I now remember you told us this before. Wow, interesting that he would be so open... I do look forward to his directing again.
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Post by special_cases on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:24 am

@toolonelytosleep Maryann said "I would like to think he is with his mother now" as a reference to Leia's vanishing body while the movie itself refuses to show Leia with Ben in the Force. It's one thing if they wouldn't have showed Leia at all and another is when you show Leia and Luke to Rey but there is no Ben. 1. Ben is more important to Rey, period, even in their own movie they acknowledge this 2. Well, why Leia is without her son if we need to think that he is with her. Either they did it intentionally, to add mystery to Ben's death and open a road to return - and now they can't confirm or deny it - or they were already so tired and careless at this stage that they just didn't care how sloppy is this.

___

Regarding comparisons between JJ&Terrio and other SW creators, the biggest difference is that you can feel how other creators were trying to tell the story. Mistakes were made; Lucas, RJ, Kershner, Kasdan, Marquand, Edwards, all of them, had weaknesses, made questionable decisions, even stupid story and directing decisions. All of them have enough their own creative vision to believe in it to tell something meaningful with their work. I can't feel that JJ&Terrio believed enough in their own story\direction decisions to craft meaningful story.

People accuse Johnson in "postmodernism" as implications that RJ's intention is to destroy and laugh about everything meaningful in the past but Johnson knows how to handle deconstruction and transform the outcomes in new meanings and knows how to use metanarratives in a honest way even if the delivery fails or the execution is sloppy. TROS is textbook example of everything that is really considered bad in postmodernism: nostalgia and metanarrative were the real creative intentions here, and because creators refuse to acknowledge this influence the real new story can't stick the landing.

Do they really think that the story of a girl who wanted to belong but discovered that her grandpa is Evil and killed him with the help of her good mentors who nevertheless accepted her when they saw in few days that she is decent person is the same impactful story as the story of a boy who wanted to be like his father but discovered that his father is Evil and refused to kill him despite what his good mentors insisted and his love for his father won in the end. Seriously? Can't they feel the scale of their story? I feel like Gossip Girl had bigger scale for coming of age stories family struggles.
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Post by Nyx on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 7:43 am

Ben's role in this trilogy is perplexing. If they wanted everything to revolve around Rey why introduce a Skywalker/Solo offspring, since it was pretty much a given he'd be popular from the get go? And why hire AD who hits every role out of the park? The man made Adam Sackler likable on 'Girls'.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 7:58 am

If JJ did this to 'push' Rey's character, he's failed, because Kylo Ren stole the trilogy.
Compare this to George Lucas and the OT. Luke was meant to be the main character, but Han Solo stole the film. But did George kill off Han so Luke got all the glory? No, he didn't, even when Harrison Ford asked him to! Han got his own story.

Regarding Ben's fate, I've been discussing this with a poster on CBR forums, and we both agree that, as many reylos on Tumblr have said, there's something very odd about the ending. And it's not just the bizarre editing of Ben's'death'. I stepped back from my affection for Reylo, and tried to look at the facts dispassionately, and it's still peculiar.
1. Rey's reaction post Ben's death. As my fellow poster on CBR rightly pointed out, Rey was devastated when Han died in TFA. We saw her grief, and her rage, despite only knowing him for five minutes.
So, why no grief or rage at losing the man she loved?
Perhaps because he was still alive.
2. Why would Rey walk away from the Resistance, if they were now her 'family', especially if Finn was a FS who might need training?
Perhaps it's she had found her real family in Ben.
3. Why no Ben Solo FG?
And 4.....
Why, of all places, would Rey go to Tattooine at the end? It has zero interest for her. But it DOES have an interest for Ben. His grandfather was born there. So, it's entirely possible Ben went to Tattooine, maybe to bury his grandfather's helmet there, symbolically laying the past and Kylo Ren to rest so he could begin again as Ben Solo. This also fits nicely with Han telling him Kylo Ren was dead, so Ben Solo could live.

I suspect the real ending went something like this:
Ben survives but refuses to return with Rey knowing that the Resistance will want him dead. He explains that now his mother is gone, he doesn't want Rey to alienate her friends by defending him and instead tells her he's going to Tattooine where his grandfather was born.
Rey reluctantly returns to the Resistance.
Later, Rey leaves and goes to Tattooine, where she is reunited with Ben, and the FGs of Luke and Leia bid them farewell.

Why this ending was changed is anyone's guess, but I suspect it could have something to do with antis who repeatedly claim Reylo is an abusive ship(obviously they haven't seen Fifth Shades of Grey).

There is a petition going around on change .org to have the original ending restored on dvd/blu ray. Probably never happen, but it might if Disney realise they'd make more money if the film had a positive ending?
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:15 am

@snufkin wrote:@Dar-ren19 Could swear I saw the Kasdans listed as being at the premiere. Which that's a story right there, him turning away an uninvited messenger with what was likely a copy of this script asking for help.

Judging from the damage control interviews in the past week from Chris Terrio and Maryanne Braeden, any statement about why Ben dies would be equally as frustrating/word salad and just set off people who are already upset. Especially given her quote that "oh I guess when Ben dies it's nice because he's off with his mother" when uh, the whole point of her interview was in response to sharp eyed fans figuring out that the ending scene with our Holy Twins of Bad Religious Art was repurposed footage of Rey on Pasaana. Like I said, he was whisked off stage b/c they didn't know what to do with him in order to have Rey's "sad strong female character" ending moments with "YAY TEAM!" (WTF was she hugging Finn and Poe, who were obnoxious/condescending to her the entire movie?) and then the absolutely cringe worthy Rey Skywalker ending. Also completely cynical answer but some idiot with the authority to make that call watched Wonder Woman and their takeaway wasn't about the female gaze in movies or anything Patty Jenkins has said. It was to wholesale rip off the climax with the villainous relative reveal and self-sacrificing male love interest.
@snufkin

I have a feeling/wondering if there was thought on their end that the success of Wonder Woman, Titanic, and A Star is Born equals the audience is OK with it if the love interest dies.  What they missed from that are the powerful scenes of togetherness (including making love/sex), and powerful scenes of mourning; therefore, there was catharsis for the audience with such an unpleasant factor in the plot.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:30 am

And of course, Titanic was based on a real life tragedy whereupon SW is a fantasy whose message was always hope.
Even ROTS ended with the birth of the twins and the knowledge that twenty five years later their father would find his redemption through his son's love, and hope knowing Padme would live on through their bloodline.....are you listening Disney?
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Post by Piper Maru on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 8:37 am

@special_cases wrote:People accuse Johnson in "postmodernism" as implications that RJ's intention is to destroy and laugh about everything meaningful in the past but Johnson knows how to handle deconstruction and transform the outcomes in new meanings and knows how to use metanarratives in a honest way even if the delivery fails or the execution is sloppy. TROS is textbook example of everything that is really considered bad in postmodernism: nostalgia and metanarrative were the real creative intentions here, and because creators refuse to acknowledge this influence the real new story can't stick the landing.
@special_cases

Quoting for the absolute truth of this statement. I'm personally not a fan of TLJ and I ranted a lot about it. I love postmodern works of fiction, and I think TLJ could've done better. However, Rian was honest and had a clear vision. He didn't chicken out of any elements and the way he used metatext to convey deep themes was clever. TRoS is just a mess of two authors (JJ and Terrio) who have no idea how basic storytelling works and how to establish thematic parallels that actually make sense.

Terrio goes on and on about how Rey is totes not going to be Tatooine's Crazy Droid Lady, but the fact is that the last shot of the saga is Rey in a desert with a dumb robot and surrounded by literal ghosts that somehow became her "family". As soon as they close that scene, it's over. Anything that comes after that is fanfic / expanded universe crap. They don't understand why people are upset about it because they don't understand the story they wrote. And I'm sorry, but even if the BFG was there with her, it would still be ridiculous because what they were going to do? Clap during the "Rey Skywalker" moment? These characters have nothing to do with Tatooine.

And another thing about the final scene: it's a nod to the ending scene of THX-1138, possibly a "homage" to George Lucas, but it was a terrible choice. In THX we're dealing with a dystopian society where love is literally forbidden. The character escapes and kind of saves the day, but he's alone and the final shot is him being swallowed up by the desert. As a filmmaker, if you want to go down this route, you need to have a basic understanding of semiotics and how you're conveying your message through visuals, how you're handling the aspects of metatext/subtext, how you can make the text clear for the audience etc. But no, they tried to be clever and failed spectacularly.


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Post by special_cases on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 9:03 am

@Piper Maru Yeah, I totally agree that it was a nod to THX-1138, basically was my first thought when the screenshot leaked. After watching TROS, this nod is pointless and pretty dumb.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 10:55 am

Honestly if there’s a director’s track for the home video release it’s going to be even more maddening than these interviews since they were obviously under corporate pressure to get something bland out concurrently with the theme park and streaming service that wouldn't alienate any potential customers (which LOL they’ve already had the antivaxxers show up so good job). It’s a rush job and choices were made which fall apart under scrutiny of how they undo the previous two movies let alone the previous six and Solo.

Same goes for the tie-in novel, I had hoped Rae Carson was writing it because she worked on the Solo YA novel and that movie supported ideas/themes set up in TFA/TLJ. But that’s pretty unlikely now & if anything it’s going to set off more controversy and unhappiness. Though my favorite response to the post movie publishing projects were the Project Luminous writers being forced to admit on Twitter that it has nothing to do with Ben (god help us if it’s the inspiring tale of Rey Skywalker, Jedi widow turned nun) and being told that means people will pass on reading or caring about it
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:11 am

@special_cases wrote:@Piper Maru Yeah, I totally agree that it was a nod to THX-1138, basically was my first thought when the screenshot leaked. After watching TROS, this nod is pointless and pretty dumb.

It's not so much a tribute as giving George Lucas the finger; he wanted a happy ending for SW, it's like telling him:
"We've ruined your space fantasy but never mind, we've instead based it on that depressing 1984 inspired film you did."
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 11:15 am

"Texas Chainsaw 3D laid the groundwork for “Bendemption.” - Scott Mendelson

WTF?!!!

The man needs to stay with box office analysis, only...when he does that, and thinks of the big picture, he's fine. When his bias against Ben enters the mix...WTF-land. And it's an article about The Grudge too, which makes it more WTF

https://www.forbes.com/sites/scottmendelson/2020/01/04/friday-box-office-the-grudge-nabs-5m-and-an-f-cinemascore-grade/#66b473c73961
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Post by Darth Dementor on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 12:26 pm

This sums up why the finale was so unsatisfying...there was no catharsis for Rey.
https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2020/01/star-wars-rise-skywalker-and-reylo-fan-fic/604408/?utm_term=2020-01-04T11%3A00%3A19&utm_medium=social&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

She finally meets the one person who gets her; really understamds her and after they finally express their love by means of a single but passionate kiss he dies.

And Ben dying doesn't give him a chance to atone for his past. And it leaves his beloved in the same place as we first met her, alone on a desert planet. Sure he has BB-8 but he's not her droid. My only hope is Ben is still in contact with her as force ghost?

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Post by californiagirl on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 1:31 pm

The Atlantic went back and interviewed some fanfiction writers again, and needless to say, they are less than thrilled with TROS. https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2020/01/star-wars-rise-skywalker-and-reylo-fan-fic/604408/

Some parts about Ben:
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Scree694

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Scree690

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Scree689


And Rey:
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Scree691

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 2 Scree692

To be fair, I think all the characters deserved better than what they got in TROS. But Ben and Rey got the saddest endings. I have difficulty seeing Rey as a pet or a push for toxic feminist messaging when, as the fans above say, she has no purpose, no place, nothing she desires, a name she's never cared about, no friends or close relationships onscreen, totally regressed back to her TFA state she was trying to escape from. It's tragic, and not in a good way. There's nothing hopeful, nothing aspirational, nothing empowering to be found. Ben gets his empowering scene or two, and then he dies. And yeah, the whole thing is handled so oddly both within and outside of TROS, that's why it's attracting so much attention, it's a muddle people are trying to make a semblance of intent or logical conclusion from.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 1:34 pm

Well, I guess the toxic haters are satisfied now.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:14 pm

Ben doesn’t even get to kill Palpatine or play any real part in his demise, unlike Vader, so he doesn’t even get to make the world a better place from that perspective.
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Post by Lily Snape on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 2:54 pm

@snufkin wrote:@Dar-ren19 The same film/writing conference in Austin that the GoT dudes shot off their mouths about how "this was like our film school" and it was announced the following day that they were no longer going to be doing a Star War. Kasdan was another featured speaker and IIRC was asked about Star Wars during the Q&A in which he mentioned that the studio screwed up Solo (which his comment was "which that's not unusual.") and that while he was 100% cognizant and appreciative of the privilege he's had writing 4 films for the franchise, that he was ready to get back to directing because it's what he really enjoys. During the course of these comments he mentioned that a script was hand delivered to his house by a messenger and that he sent them away without looking at it because of the aforementioned wanting to move on to do other types of projects. If I had to guess my bet is that it wasn't a script for The Mandolorean which was delivered unsolicited to his house asking for help.

@Lily Snape : ( - If she's going with somebody who's already seen the movie, I think you'd be in the clear sitting her down and breaking the news.
@snufkin

I wish— she deliberately had my husband go with her instead of me, because she figured I’d be reacting (or reacting to her reactions) through the whole thing. And she’s right. So they’re off seeing it now. (Insert cringing emoji here.)
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Post by Atenais on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 3:42 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:If JJ did this to 'push' Rey's character, he's failed, because Kylo Ren stole the trilogy.
Compare this to George Lucas and the OT. Luke was meant to be the main character, but Han Solo stole the film. But did George kill off Han so Luke got all the glory? No, he didn't, even when Harrison Ford asked him to! Han got his own story.

Regarding Ben's fate, I've been discussing this with a poster on CBR forums, and we both agree that, as many reylos on Tumblr have said, there's something very odd about the ending. And it's not just the bizarre editing of Ben's'death'. I stepped back from my affection for Reylo, and tried to look at the facts dispassionately, and it's still peculiar.
1. Rey's reaction post Ben's death. As my fellow poster on CBR rightly pointed out, Rey was devastated when Han died in TFA. We saw her grief, and her rage, despite only knowing him for five minutes.
So, why no grief or rage at losing the man she loved?
Perhaps because he was still alive.
2. Why would Rey walk away from the Resistance, if they were now her 'family', especially if Finn was a FS who might need training?
Perhaps it's she had found her real family in Ben.
3. Why no Ben Solo FG?
And 4.....
Why, of all places, would Rey go to Tattooine at the end? It has zero interest for her. But it DOES have an interest for Ben. His grandfather was born there. So, it's entirely possible Ben went to Tattooine, maybe to bury his grandfather's helmet there, symbolically laying the past and Kylo Ren to rest so he could begin again as Ben Solo. This also fits nicely with Han telling him Kylo Ren was dead, so Ben Solo could live.

I suspect the real ending went something like this:
Ben survives but refuses to return with Rey knowing that the Resistance will want him dead. He explains that now his mother is gone, he doesn't want Rey to alienate her friends by defending him and instead tells her he's going to Tattooine where his grandfather was born.
Rey reluctantly returns to the Resistance.
Later, Rey leaves and goes to Tattooine, where she is reunited with Ben, and the FGs of Luke and Leia bid them farewell.

Why this ending was changed is anyone's guess, but I suspect it could have something to do with antis who repeatedly claim Reylo is an abusive ship(obviously they haven't seen Fifth Shades of Grey).

There is a petition going around on change .org to have the original ending restored on dvd/blu ray. Probably never happen, but it might if Disney realise they'd make more money if the film had a positive ending?
@motherofpearl1

I'm no trying to be negative, but seeing this movie, I believe they were just sloppy, doesn't look like the ending was that different, it's not only the last scenes that felt rushed, awful, the whole movie was like that, with expository dialogue, dumb plot, etc. Maybe the ending was supposed to be different. But it could be worse, with Rey and the trio in Tatooine.

@californiagirl wrote:To be fair, I think all the characters deserved better than what they got in TROS. But Ben and Rey got the saddest endings. I have difficulty seeing Rey as a pet or a push for toxic feminist messaging when, as the fans above say, she has no purpose, no place, nothing she desires, a name she's never cared about, no friends or close relationships onscreen, totally regressed back to her TFA state she was trying to escape from. It's tragic, and not in a good way. There's nothing hopeful, nothing aspirational, nothing empowering to be found. Ben gets his empowering scene or two, and then he dies. And yeah, the whole thing is handled so oddly both within and outside of TROS, that's why it's attracting so much attention, it's a muddle people are trying to make a semblance of intent or logical conclusion from.
@californiagirl

I agree with you, all characters deserved better, but Rey, for being the protagonist, got the worst. They denied her the completion of her arc.
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Post by Forsythia on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 4:12 pm

@Atenais wrote:I'm no trying to be negative, but seeing this movie, I believe they were just sloppy, doesn't look like the ending was that different, it's not only the last scenes that felt rushed, awful, the whole movie was like that, with expository dialogue, dumb plot, etc. Maybe the ending was supposed to be different. But it could be worse, with Rey and the trio in Tatooine.
The whole movie seems sloppy and unfinished with terrible special effects. Maybe the film was originally meant to end with the trio or they always wanted to end with Rey on Tatooine but didn't get to finish her scenes, which is why they included the recycled Pasaana shot. Since the editor herself wasn't happy that they didn't have more time to finish the movie, I wonder if they will at least improve some of the scenes for the home release. Some of the effects look so cheap and cringey, like blue Force Ghost Luke.
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Post by Piper Maru on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 4:16 pm

Papa Smurf Luke and that horrible CGI hood Rey is wearing on Ahch-To *shudders*
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Post by Forsythia on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:05 pm

Someone should make an edit of TROS replacing FG Luke with a smurf Very Happy

(Edit: Just noticed that Rey's hood in the scene kind of looks like a smurf hat...)


Last edited by Forsythia on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by snufkin on Sat 04 Jan 2020, 5:14 pm

@Lily Snape : ( I hope your hubby has a box of Kleenex or clean handkerchief with him.

@Piper Maru  The bargain basement Porgs or how the Fish Nuns were nowhere to be seen yelling at Rey for making another mess they're going to have to clean up.
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