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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:25 pm

Saw an interesting take that there's very little onscreen proof that Rey is actually a Palpatine. Especially with him dead now, what else is there to go off of but the stuff he claimed to achieve his own goals to be reempowered through Rey? I guess there's her force lightning power. But I sort of feel Yoda did that too? It's another example of TROS being so poorly written, or changed very late in the game, that it could be reversed with little effort. Like the questions over what happened to Ben (dead, ghost, world between worlds, something something vergences, inside Rey), paired with SW characters coming back from the dead on more than one occasion. It's kind of shocking how many canon-compliant ways there are to wheedle one's way out of some of the biggest decisions in the movie, since they're so indecisive in their execution.

This just in from Matt, in a thread about how he thinks the intention is that Palpatine is officially dead, but things can change, though he wouldn't want this particular thing to happen.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 13 Scree698

Leaves a lotta doors open.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 2:51 pm

Ben's not dead, he's in the Disney Vault. As for whatever lunacy made them decide "meet your grandpa" was a good plot point for the ST and for Rey, that can be undone w/something like her dad was a runaway clone who didn't have Force Powers or some orphan adopted for nefarious purposes like the classic MR James story, Lost Hearts (orphan is taken in by older relative and eventually realizes he's being set up for a human sacrifice that will grant his caretaker supernatural powers).
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Post by Atenais on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 7:11 pm

@californiagirl wrote:Saw an interesting take that there's very little onscreen proof that Rey is actually a Palpatine. Especially with him dead now, what else is there to go off of but the stuff he claimed to achieve his own goals to be reempowered through Rey? I guess there's her force lightning power. But I sort of feel Yoda did that too? It's another example of TROS being so poorly written, or changed very late in the game, that it could be reversed with little effort. Like the questions over what happened to Ben (dead, ghost, world between worlds, something something vergences, inside Rey), paired with SW characters coming back from the dead on more than one occasion. It's kind of shocking how many canon-compliant ways there are to wheedle one's way out of some of the biggest decisions in the movie, since they're so indecisive in their execution.

This just in from Matt, in a thread about how he thinks the intention is that Palpatine is officially dead, but things can change, though he wouldn't want this particular thing to happen.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 13 Scree698

Leaves a lotta doors open.
@californiagirl

This only shows how they have no trust in their own story. It's the last movie, or the character is alive or dead. I'm tired of so many things happening off screen. It's not time for analysis, for meta, nuance, etc... Gosh! It's frustrating.
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Post by OrionStars on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 9:01 pm

@YeeRees wrote:@Reynak

I lost patience with MH over his complaining post-TLJ but I have a bit more sympathy now. It is my belief he, CF and HF were given certain assurances or at least expectations of where their characters would be in the ST. Luke was initially supposed to be a lot more involved in TFA. The original plans for Luke’s character appeared to change when JJ and Lawrence Kasdan came onboard. JJ said he feared Luke would overshadow the new characters (Rey and Finn) and so he was left stranded on the island. MH has said he only agreed to come back to Star Wars because Carrie persuaded him and he said he’d do it if Harrison did. It looks like he began to regret his decision with TFA and then TLJ threw him for a loop because he again expected different things for Luke. He was never my favourite character but I liked him a lot in TLJ. I think MH came around to what it was in the end but he was obviously still upset about certain aspects of his ST storyline.

I do also see similarities between MH and JB’s dissatisfaction with TLJ (and the ST as a whole). From what’s been said by JB and DR in interviews, they had certain expectations for how their characters/stories would develop after TFA. They became close friends from the audition process and throughout TFA filming and both seemed to assume Rey and Finn’s relationship/friendship would be central in TLJ too. Rian Johnson evidently had a lot of complaining to deal with, not only from MH but DR and JB upset that they weren’t going to be working together for most of the movie.

Who knows what Colin Trevorrow would have done with the central relationships/friendships but JJ and CT were all for the trio and giving DR and JB a lot more screen time together. But I do think JB must have had certain expectations, whether he was given promises or it was his own ego taking over, that he would be in the leading man role and Finn would be firmly in the spotlight. The editing did him no favours but there doesn’t appear to have been anything all that significant cut from his arc except for him revealing his force sensitivity to Rey. Nothing of great impact ever came from his background as a Stormtrooper and Finn was mostly back in sidekick territory in TROS. JB must have been expecting better from what he said during the press tour and how critical he’s been of Finn’s arc in TLJ.

@YeeRees


I will never forget and forgive what the actors who played the faux trio did. They whined about being separated and insisted that the trio should be together, it's obvious that JJ listened to their complaint and he granted their wish, and in order to do that JJ had to sacrifice and sideline the other characters, little did the trio know they made their bed and lied in it because they had so much faith in JJ their best friend they didn't suspect that JJ could be so incompetent to the point that he turned the trio into a group of an irrelevant clown, a usurper clown and a stereotypical clown. Now the trio is acting like they are victims!!!  In this case, I must say, it's the biggest irony of life or karma is a b****.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 13 8L3PkS5
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Post by Kessel on Mon 13 Jan 2020, 11:15 pm

The BFG trio did nothing for me. They were ok, but that’s it. They were nothing like Luke, Han and Leia.

As much as I’m disappointed with TROS and its ending  — especially dead Ben Solo and Rey (who can deny the truth that is her family) Palpatine Skywalker, I’m glad the “trio” weren’t attached at the hip at all times. What a bore the ST would have been had it been a constant BFG trio fest with Kylo as just the side adversary for them to fight.

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Post by californiagirl on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:04 am

I got the impression JJ wrote the trio even before the actors asked them to. Which I found weird, since he didn't make a trio in TFA in the first place. Then again, it would seem most of the good parts of TFA were from Kasdan. I really don't think the actors are to be blamed for the existence of the trio, or ruining the ST. Like JJ and Terrio would have made a good movie, or one without the BFG, if only John and Daisy hadn't been sad. You know they don't have a lot of power if they ended up being unhappy with the end product.

I'm actually a little troubled by the tendency over the past month on social media to try blaming everyone in proximity to LF or Disney for the woes of TROS. I get the sense a rather small group of people, if not one singular person, are the ones responsible.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:25 am

Wasn’t sure where to post this but this came up on Twitter and it’s from the Art of TROS book released in March . When I saw this earlier it gave me underworld/world between worlds vibes big time . It also made me think of fringe series too ( also JJ abrams ) and how people cross over from different dimensions and can be swapped for a different version of themselves. You could also read it as - they are looking at themselves too- Rey the female side and kylo the Male side - of what though? The soul ? The force ? Probably both as archetypes. I said earlier here how the rise of kylo Ren gave me borges “The other “ vibes . It will be interesting to see what they do .
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 13 Dcf69810

Also I know we don’t believe “ He who must not be named “ lol but he claims he’s heard rumours of Return of Ben solo . This should go in crack thread I guess so take with pinch of salt :
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zxmNw-u4Ji4&feature=youtu.be
Ok he says there is something in the works to bring Ben solo back , explore the netherworld for 2021 and Finn will become a Jedi and Rey set up the next Jedi .
That we’ll know more about this in the next year because it ties in with the next phase of Star Wars and the new type of EU they want to set up ( like marvel I guess).
However he says he’s not sure if this is gonna be books, tv series or films at this stage . Maybe a combination?
Take with pinch of salt . Also even if the actors say they aren’t coming back I wouldn’t pay too much attention to that because Ewan has known for a while he was coming back as Obi Wan but was sworn to secrecy .
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:15 am

Problem is, even if this is true, bringing back Ben is fine, but I'm honestly not interested in Jedi Finn and Rey.

The code of the Jedi - no love, because it corrupts you - is as twisted in it's own way as the Sith and their lust for power.

I'd only be interested in such a film if Rian directed it, and they retconned the awfulness of TROS and got back some of the good things he did with TLJ.

Such as 'its time for the Jedi to end'.

And please God - not FinnRey. There is no sexual chemistry between those characters at all.
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Post by OrionStars on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:51 am

@Forsythia wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:@Forsythia The entire way TROS handles Palpatine is so weird. Palpatine's changed or cut lines, Rey not having a ton of lines either, they both having rather non-specific dialogue, Luke talking to Rey about being a Palpatine as a reshoot, Rey not directly acknowledging her Palpatine lineage. Carelessness, or did some major change in the narrative and interactions go down?
It's similar with all the Reylo scenes. Kylo talks to her but Rey has almost no lines or meaningless lines like "no" and it feels very unconnected. Either JJ was terrible at handling the dialogues, or a lot of Rey's lines were cut. If there were late changes to the story, I think it might have been easier to change/add lines for Kylo and Palpatine, because Kylo was wearing the mask and Palpatine's face is often not visible, so their lines could have been replaced with voiceovers. It's also very suspicious that redeemed and unmasked Ben Solo has no lines at all. If the entire Palpatine showdown was changed, maybe Ben's lines didn't make sense anymore and had to be cut.
@Forsythia

I understand that you guys hate the idea of Rey Palpatina but do you guys know that KK has famous parents? Her mother was an actress and her father was a well-known superior court judge in Redding, California. KK later "inherited" Lucas's legacy even though she's not Lucas's biological daughter while Lucas and his family had stopped interfering with SW.

Can you guys see you the similarities between KK's life and princess Palpatina? Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 13 JwCc00k
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 3:15 am

Someone on CBR said she was KK"s self insert.
I wonder if KK's single?
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Post by OrionStars on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 3:25 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Someone on CBR said she was KK"s self insert.
I wonder if KK's single?
@motherofpearl1

KK had a  company and got married to Frank Marshall, soon Rey will open a "Jedi company" to lure children to buy yellow lightsaber, and of course, Rey can find her own "Frank Marshall" so she can produce Palwalker babies or maybe she becomes a virgin mother like Shmi, they won't let princess Palpatina adopt the Skywalker name just for show.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 9:17 am

God, it's dire, isn't it?
I'd love to know what this film looked like before the reshoots and the editing.
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 10:52 am

I don't give a darn about KK's background. Acting like this gives us some kind of moral or intellectual superiority about whether or not this is reflected in a film she neither wrote nor directed is just weird and a bit pathetic. It's like the target of our ire shifts depending on whatever piece of random information or tenuous/questionable interpretation or connection happens to crop up. No guys, I'm not overly impressed by this line of thinking, it's frankly embarrassing. This is what we came all this way for? At the end of the day, this is what we are? If so, we're no better than the very same toxic fans many people here ran from.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 11:39 am

I get you, but the reason things have gone down this path is that she herself said she wanted to focus on the trio, plus JB saying those awful things on Instagram and cast members saying way back how glad they were to be working together again, and the fact is, TROS is so horribly edited it's pretty obvious that what ended up on screen isn't what was originally intended, and everyone is puzzled as to 'why'.

I remember when they tried to launch a campaign to remake TLJ, I'd like them to release a separate version to the theatrical version on blu ray. Unlike TLJ I am absolutely sure there's an 'original' version out there somewhere.

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Post by Piper Maru on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 12:30 pm

I don't even think this is relevant, but all the "we're so glad to be working together" is pure PR talk to sell the idea of the trio as a genuine friendship that transcends the movies. The trio actors are not that close in real life and it's not even a secret or "celebrity gossip"; they only get together for BTS montages and press events, you don't see them hanging out when they're not mandated by the studio.

And I also get the need to rationalize the film, but I personally think that no matter what they say, some actors there don't have any clout in the business to call the shots when it comes to major plot points in a blockbuster, no matter how friendly they are with the director.

As for Kennedy... it's hard to know what happened at Lucasfilm during the production of this film. It's really not a case of just one person being responsible for the mess.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 12:47 pm

Some people have gone too far - threatening JJ and some of the cast members is completely out of order.
This is what's great about this forum....you can safely vent here among people who understand!

I was a bit concerned about one site that's actually supporting what JB's been saying, however.
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Post by Piper Maru on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:08 pm

My advice is just to ignore it all. Nothing anyone says right now matters anymore. The trilogy is over. They were always going to throw the fans under the bus because we're scapegoats and they need to change the subject so people can forget their awful product. And 90% of sites these days don't care about facts, it's all pure clickbait.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 1:18 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:My advice is just to ignore it all. Nothing anyone says right now matters anymore. The trilogy is over. They were always going to throw the fans under the bus because we're scapegoats and they need to change the subject so people can forget their awful product. And 90% of sites these days don't care about facts, it's all pure clickbait.

I'm a Reylo fan. But at the end of the day, I prefer Kylo over Rey, because put simply he's the standout character in the trilogy.

And it seems someone somewhere didn't like that.

Ben's death is so poorly done, it's almost like an afterthought.
But we will have the last laugh. Forget silly death threats. The best place to hit Disney is in their pockets. Already the film is disappointing at the box office. I doubt the merchandise will sell as well.

I'm going to sit back and watch, as Adam and Rian enjoy their AAN.
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Post by SheLitAFire on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:29 pm

Have any of you read through the supposed plot points of the "leaked CT script"? Just saw it on my reddit feed but I guess it's been up for almost a day on r/starwarsleaks.

Thoughts? Probably fake...right? But then again we thought JP's leaks weren't entirely correct/legit
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:34 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:Have any of you read through the supposed plot points of the "leaked CT script"? Just saw it on my reddit feed but I guess it's been up for almost a day on r/starwarsleaks.

Thoughts? Probably fake...right? But then again we thought JP's leaks weren't entirely correct/legit
Going to check it out, but we didn't believe JP because the story he told sounded so.....bad!
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Post by nickandnora on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 2:59 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:Have any of you read through the supposed plot points of the "leaked CT script"? Just saw it on my reddit feed but I guess it's been up for almost a day on r/starwarsleaks.

Thoughts? Probably fake...right? But then again we thought JP's leaks weren't entirely correct/legit
@SheLitAFire

I saw it. While there are aspects of it that make sense (Luke appearing to Kylo many times for instance), the way Kylo's story plays out is LOL in its bleakness. Like somehow TRoS is a downright uplifting comedy in comparison (basically Trevorrow doubles down on Kylo being the ultimate villain, which surprises me not at all). He still dies, only evil (at least I think he does; the wording is tricky.) Oh, and he killed Rey's parents, which makes even less sense than what we got.

Maybe the reason everyone involved thought that TRoS was so hopeful and satisfying is that they knew what it almost was, lol. I mean, I get how contrast might skew perspective here.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 3:25 pm

I think they're problem is believing in the sanctity of the Jedi cult and seeing everything in black and white.
Which judging by the prequels wasn't really Lucas's intention.
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Post by Forsythia on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 4:09 pm

@SheLitAFire wrote:Have any of you read through the supposed plot points of the "leaked CT script"? Just saw it on my reddit feed but I guess it's been up for almost a day on r/starwarsleaks.

Thoughts? Probably fake...right? But then again we thought JP's leaks weren't entirely correct/legit

It sounds terrible, but so did the leaks for TROS and they turned out to be true. However, the CT script leaker says Kylo killed Rey's parents on Snoke's orders. That doen't make sense because at the time he was about 15, training with Luke and hadn't yet turned to the dark side. Like, did Luke let his 15 year old nephew/student who hadn' finished training travel alone around planets and kill people?

Edit: Another thing that makes me doubt this leak is the supposed title "Duel of the Fates". I don't think they would have recycled one of the prequel soundtrack titles for the film title. For some reason fans are just obsessed with this track and wanted it to be in the film really bad, thus the title sounds very much like wishful thinking, IMO, or the leaker hoped it would sound more legit because it was familiar.
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Post by Kyla Ren on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 4:31 pm

I just read through the summary on Reddit.  Wow.  All I can say is that I didn't think anything could be worse than what we got in TROS, but after reading that, I can see I was wrong.  I also watched a little of the YouTube video that was linked in the Reddit post and what really surprised me was that so many people in the comments seemed to like it and wished we had gotten that instead of TROS.
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Post by nickandnora on Tue 14 Jan 2020, 4:40 pm

@Kyla Ren wrote:I just read through the summary on Reddit.  Wow.  All I can say is that I didn't think anything could be worse than what we got in TROS, but after reading that, I can see I was wrong.  I also watched a little of the YouTube video that was linked in the Reddit post and what really surprised me was that so many people in the comments seemed to like it and wished we had gotten that instead of TROS.
@Kyla Ren
Regardless of what random youtube commenters and redditors are saying, I think the GA would have liked this movie much less than TRoS. It sounds convoluted and dark. I guess absolutely no one knows how to write a Star Wars movie anymore, huh?

One part that really gets me is that Rey is basically punished for having compassion and belief in goodness here. She believes Kylo can be turned, but she's a stupid sentimental female who is WRONG. That messaging is somehow much worse than what we got (and not surprising considering some of Trevorrow's sensibilities).

The cynical part of me is like, "Ah, this was a calculated leak designed to get me to actually defend the mess that was TRoS against this. Bravo Disney/LF. Well played."

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