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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by special_cases on Sat 18 Jan 2020, 7:33 pm

I couldn't agree more with this article more because it has the same observation I wrote down two weeks ago: with TROS LF satisfied not only TLJ complainers, they satisfied The Entitled Fans - and it doesn't matter which film they like\dislike. It's a feeling that if you bully, shout and demand to cater to you, then the Firm will deliver to you. They now are "powerful" fans [as in the article] and we are not - and will never be. And profit here is not determinator, it's about the brand.

Alt right fans and The Entitled Fans are just in the same boat here, alt-rights push their complaints based on political\social views and The Entitled Fans start following these complaints just to reach common goal, no matter what their political views are.

We are the side that will never transform in one core group with the goal of bullying. There are too many women among us and we will never came to this matter from the position of entitlement like we are the ones who are holding the power between us and Lucasmouse. The reaction of our side is basically begging to BringBenSoloBack and support charities, transform the story via fan creations etc. Or... move on.
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Post by DeeBee on Sat 18 Jan 2020, 7:35 pm

@vaderito wrote: ...Did they even watch their final cut?...
@vaderito - Evidently not!!!! It's embarrassing. the finale of the skywalker saga deserved so much more.

@Piper Maru wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/18/latest-star-wars-film-satisfies-right-wing-will-left-start-trolling/

Kaboooom.

The article mentions how mainstream media is failing to notice certain patterns YET AGAIN after 2016 which gives power to trolls, how JB got played and unwittingly incited a wave of harassment towards a group of fans, and how "Reylos" became an acceptable target within the fandom to divert attention from other issues.
@Piper Maru
Thanks so much for sharing this article by Bethany Lacina. I don't get much time to read widely online about this stuff.
LFL uses the term Fandom menace?! I didn't know that!!

Bethany Lacina wrote: One critic illustrated all this with a list of TROS moments that undermine TLJ’s commitment to diversity. For example, TROS “explains” that certain feats by women in TLJ were only possible because of help from men or sheer luck."
- I found it hard to articulate why it bugged me that Rey had to be from a certain lineage, and it was impossible she could be so powerful without training.. Leia having been trained by Luke (way more extensively than Bloodlines had indicated)..  and Luke raising his ship out of the ocean for Rey to get going. ughhhhhhhhh  - this nails why it bugged me!!

Aside from issues with franchises and storytelling, fandom and trolling - Journalism has it's own issues. Time and again they fail to dig deeper and get to the real story. I'm encouraged that this journalist has done some real digging here!!!

Bethany Lacina wrote: Fans who feel slighted by TROS’s politics will not have a comparable platform. Female, nonwhite and LGBTQ fans control fewer fan outlets. They also experience more online harassment, discouraging them from engaging with the larger fandom.
- I can confirm this has stopped me, absolutely.

I think Disney uses the drama to market and stir up engagement and interest, and they are thus the ultimate trolls. I think fandom menace is part of their marketing strategy, and they have no interest in nor care for how fans may be treated by other fans. (Given the treatment of KMT and lack of action, I'd suggest this lack of care also includes the actors.]
But it's even more than that: not only do they have no interest and do nothing to quell the fires of hateful discourse, they IMHO intentionally feed it.
Practically deleting Rose out of TROS and replacing her with Jannah and Beaumont convinced me they don't care, they feed it.
It's damaged their brand in my eyes. I see Disney products now I think-I'm not giving you anymore of my money now. Maybe it's one way I can express my view without getting harassed or belittled about it. ugh.
While I'm not expecting it, I'm open to finding that Disney (including LFL) learn their lesson and decide to do better and be better.
Maybe if journalists write about this and shine a light on it Disney will change their marketing strategy... I can dream... Surprised
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Post by OrionStars on Sat 18 Jan 2020, 8:19 pm

@Riri wrote:If Kylo had a standalone film and Rey was his love interest then Daisy would totally return as a supporting character, she loves acting opposite him also it’ll be amazing exposure for her.

I just wanted to post this interview here too. So Jannah and Finn were playing romance.
@Riri


I don't think they would revive Ben and let Rey/DR play his love interest, if we're lucky enough, we may have a prequel film/series of Ben and his random lover on Disney+, then we will find out that Ben and that girl actually have a love child because even Palpy has his grand baby girl so Ben could have his own baby too, that scenario is much easier for them to do than actually resurrecting Ben.
Stronk Princess Palpatina belongs to the beautiful friendship gang now, it's likely that she will bleep off with them in SW supplemental materials.
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Post by Dar-ren19 on Sat 18 Jan 2020, 10:41 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:I'm absolutely certain he would. The bonus is, he likes the character. Unlike Harrison Ford, Adam enjoyed playing Kylo and put a lot of work into the role. What I don't think he'd want is to do a prequel. I don't want that either, if Adam returns, I want it to be the further adventures of Kylo/Ben. It would be a bonus if Rian came back as well.
Regarding Reylo......I don't know if Daisy would return, I hope she would because if anyone could salvage her character it would be Rian, but she is good friends with JB so I don't know. In any case, I'm burned out by the Trio, and Adam and Kylo could easily carry a solo film. I'd like Kylo to have a love interest though, preferably someone.......flesh and blood and not holy essence personified.

@motherofpearl1 ILY

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Post by Kessel on Sat 18 Jan 2020, 11:30 pm

@OrionStars wrote:
@Riri wrote:If Kylo had a standalone film and Rey was his love interest then Daisy would totally return as a supporting character, she loves acting opposite him also it’ll be amazing exposure for her.

I just wanted to post this interview here too. So Jannah and Finn were playing romance.
@Riri


I don't think they would revive Ben and let Rey/DR play his love interest, if we're lucky enough, we may have a prequel film/series of Ben and his random lover on Disney+, then we will find out that Ben and that girl actually have a love child because even Palpy has his grand baby girl so Ben could have his own baby too, that scenario is much easier for them to do than actually resurrecting Ben.
Stronk Princess Palpatina belongs to the beautiful friendship gang now, it's likely that she will bleep off with them in SW supplemental materials.
@OrionStars

Pre-TROS, I’d have said that’s unlikely because it’s exactly what the EU did with Han and Leia’s son, Jacen Solo who also turned to the dark side. However now, with how they handled TROS, who knows? It wouldn’t be the first time they copied what came before. I still think it’s unlikely though because they obviously want the Skywalker biological line to end, but Palpatine’s lives on...

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Post by californiagirl on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:29 am

The whole Jannah thing demonstrates one of the biggest problems about TROS, which is that it doesn't definitively convey much of anything, be they plot points, reveals, character developments, relationships, anything really. Like they either couldn't commit to anything, or it somehow didn't come through in the writing or editing. Read a great thread earlier today about the vagueness of TROS. Things shouldn't be open-ended, or still seemingly unanswered, when this should be an ending that, you know, ends things in a way one can put fairly definitive facts or statements on. I have more questions than I did before TROS. Some of the most basic things in the saga are up to debate. People's wild theories are more valid now than they were before. This isn't about different interpretations, there's not even an understanding of what happened on a perfuntory level onscreen and where that leaves everyone and everything. The most awful part is that this was all because most of the creative decisions weren't done for the story or characters, but for a hypothetical audience that doesn't even really match the real audience.
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Post by Reylo Lemon on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 2:01 am

@Piper Maru wrote:https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/01/18/latest-star-wars-film-satisfies-right-wing-will-left-start-trolling/

Kaboooom.

The article mentions how mainstream media is failing to notice certain patterns YET AGAIN after 2016 which gives power to trolls, how JB got played and unwittingly incited a wave of harassment towards a group of fans, and how "Reylos" became an acceptable target within the fandom to divert attention from other issues.
@Piper Maru

Backed up by the Washington Post. That's amazing <3
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 2:15 am

And what is truly ironic is that by turning Rey into the Mary Sue we have vehemently denied she was, they've played right into their hands.

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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 3:49 am

Well, hello there!

It's been a long time Smile

I don't want to waste any words on TROS/TRASH analysis because everything I have in mind about the failure of a movie has already been said in here.

After all the disappointment, anger and sadness - I started to think about the ST as a whole -which is as painful as thinking about TROS Very Happy

I came with a couple of conclusions and further questions which I hope somebody from LF/Disney would speak up about in future (or not).

It looks pretty obvious to me the SKYWALKERS (those related by blood) had to go. It lead me to believe that Ben Solo was sentenced to death even before a word of a screenplay had been written down. Him killing his father was just a tool to make things more easier for the final execution.

I don't think that getting rid of Skywalkers was an artistic decision - I see it as a business one. The decision that failed a big deal. Not only with Ben Solo, but also with killing of Luke Skywalker in TLJ).

It remains to be seen if it was a Disney requirement to have new characters and content and all the credit in the future - or it was a weird thinking from LF story group based on some 40 years old George Lucas idea of the nine part family saga.

The fact is they failed a big deal - they underestimated the fans - aggressive or not, shippers or not, casuals or not, everyone in one word.
The new ST characters are simply BAD. I've spent a lot of time in the past defending Rey or Finn - but the final result of how the characters been written along the three movies is a disaster.

Did somebody in the story group (Dave Filoni?) thought that the content and the characters made for smaller scale of an audience and in a different form (multi seasonal cartoons) might work equally good on the big screen and for much bigger audience?
If it is the case - then I think they're or naive or simply not experienced enough.

I have also a dreaded feeling that the hired directors (JJ, Johnson) were just tools - to execute the whole story (aka kill off Skywalkers and insert in a new random one). With very little power to change anything that had been planned before. The things they added were also dubious (a bit less dubious in Rian's case and a total disaster when it comes to JJ and TROS).
I really can't see now how they thought it was going to be a success when you have like 6 main characters on the same time on screen during the 3 two hours long movies. Original trio + Ben + Rey + Finn (and his ladies tongue ).




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Post by SanghaRen on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 4:17 am

@Darth_Awakened
Finn and his ladies Laughing That is definitively the next cartoon on Disney+.

I have been looking at my Forces of Destiny Ben+Rey dolls lately and wondering why they even created a FoD doll for Ben or even bothered with a FoD cartoon in the first place. And I’ll never get over the Rey of Jakku on the box for Rey, name that was used for other merchandizing. I can’t shake the feeling that there was another story planned and it got turned upside down (meddling of suits stopping projects and kicking off others) and that’s why there is also very little follow-up on TRoS including merchandizing. It’s been 1 month and there is no Rey Skywalker-Palpatine merchandize. Actually, there is very little TRoS specific merchandize except for the new characters and stupid glued-together Kylo mask and Dark Rey. Is there even any TRoS Palps merchandizing? In comparison to TLJ, it’s jarring.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 4:29 am

@SanghaRen

I'm almost completely clueless when it comes to merch except I've been constantly hearing something is fishy with it.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 5:51 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:Well, hello there!

It's been a long time Smile

I don't want to waste any words on TROS/TRASH analysis because everything I have in mind about the failure of a movie has already been said in here.

After all the disappointment, anger and sadness - I started to think about the ST as a whole -which is as painful as thinking about TROS Very Happy

I came with a couple of conclusions and further questions which I hope somebody from LF/Disney would speak up about in future (or not).

It looks pretty obvious to me the SKYWALKERS (those related by blood) had to go. It lead me to believe that Ben Solo was sentenced to death even before a word of a screenplay had been written down. Him killing his father was just a tool to make things more easier for the final execution.

I don't think that getting rid of Skywalkers was an artistic decision - I see it as a business one. The decision that failed a big deal. Not only with Ben Solo, but also with killing of Luke Skywalker in TLJ).

It remains to be seen if it was a Disney requirement to have new characters and content and all the credit in the future - or it was a weird thinking from LF story group based on some 40 years old George Lucas idea of the nine part family saga.

The fact is they failed a big deal - they underestimated the fans - aggressive or not, shippers or not, casuals or not, everyone in one word.
The new ST characters are simply BAD. I've spent a lot of time in the past defending Rey or Finn - but the final result of how the characters been written along the three movies is a disaster.

Did somebody in the story group (Dave Filoni?) thought that the content and the characters made for smaller scale of an audience and in a different form (multi seasonal cartoons) might work equally good on the big screen and for much bigger audience?
If it is the case - then I think they're or naive or simply not experienced enough.

I have also a dreaded feeling that the hired directors (JJ, Johnson) were just tools - to execute the whole story (aka kill off Skywalkers and insert in a new random one). With very little power to change anything that had been planned before. The things they added were also dubious (a bit less dubious in Rian's case and a total disaster when it comes to JJ and TROS).
I really can't see now how they thought it was going to be a success when you have like 6 main characters on the same time on screen during the 3 two hours long movies. Original trio + Ben + Rey + Finn (and his ladies tongue ).





As a long time fan, I had no problems wrrith Luke or Han's deaths, as they were so beautifully done and the characters had lived many years post ROTJ. In Carrie's case, sadly, they had no choice.
But I saw their deaths as a passing of the torch to the next generation as personified by Ben and Rey, if the two had married.
My problem is why, if they intended to erase the Skywalkers, did the last member of the generation be depicted as such a tragic, sympathetic character? Why do that to kill him off? Please, supporters of this sorry excuse for a film, don't say it's because his sacrifice at the end is therefore so touching.....because it ISN'T. Ben's death falls flat because it is completely glossed over. There is no mention of Rey telling her friends what he did, no scenes of her mourning him. There are comparisons of Titanic. But Old Rose's words gave her lover a beautiful epitaph.
"There was a man called Jack Dawson. And he saved me, in every way."
No such accolades for Ben. Not even a FG.
Then, if they decided to erase the Skywalkers.....why have Rey take the name? And why make her a Palpatine? Supporters insist it's a nice message that it doesn't matter where you come from, you can be your own person. But that was done already, and better, by Rian in TLJ. Making Rey a Palpatine is a complete insult. The Emperor gloats at the end that he's destroyed the Skywalkers. And ....he has. You can even say that Rey, a Palpatine, killed Ben because he gave his life force to her.
The huge mistake is that with this film they have not only sacrificecad the best character in the entire saga, they have turned their chosen heroine into someone I don't like anymore. Rey has ceased to be the likeable, relatable girl she was and has been reinvented as someone who wins because she's the superior version of Ben Solo. They've also destroyed Finn - he was supposed to rally the stormtroopers, instead we get a new character who essentially steals his thunder and also becomes his would be loved, presumably because people of colour can't fall in love with anyone who isn't the same ethnicity.
Meanwhile Poe, who would have been terrific as the new General, is turned into a second rate Han Solo.

What Disney or LF have failed to realise is that they have failed massively. Opinion polls on their SW website revealed Kylo was the most popular. Without him, these films fall flat. The success of the spin off comic proves that.

Finally....SanghaRen..... you're right about the merchandise. And I'm curious as o how not only the artbook but the official movie magazine has been delayed.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 6:00 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:Well, hello there!

It's been a long time Smile

I don't want to waste any words on TROS/TRASH analysis because everything I have in mind about the failure of a movie has already been said in here.

After all the disappointment, anger and sadness - I started to think about the ST as a whole -which is as painful as thinking about TROS Very Happy

I came with a couple of conclusions and further questions which I hope somebody from LF/Disney would speak up about in future (or not).

It looks pretty obvious to me the SKYWALKERS (those related by blood) had to go. It lead me to believe that Ben Solo was sentenced to death even before a word of a screenplay had been written down. Him killing his father was just a tool to make things more easier for the final execution.

I don't think that getting rid of Skywalkers was an artistic decision - I see it as a business one. The decision that failed a big deal. Not only with Ben Solo, but also with killing of Luke Skywalker in TLJ).

It remains to be seen if it was a Disney requirement to have new characters and content and all the credit in the future - or it was a weird thinking from LF story group based on some 40 years old George Lucas idea of the nine part family saga.

The fact is they failed a big deal - they underestimated the fans - aggressive or not, shippers or not, casuals or not, everyone in one word.
The new ST characters are simply BAD. I've spent a lot of time in the past defending Rey or Finn - but the final result of how the characters been written along the three movies is a disaster.

Did somebody in the story group (Dave Filoni?) thought that the content and the characters made for smaller scale of an audience and in a different form (multi seasonal cartoons) might work equally good on the big screen and for much bigger audience?
If it is the case - then I think they're or naive or simply not experienced enough.

I have also a dreaded feeling that the hired directors (JJ, Johnson) were just tools - to execute the whole story (aka kill off Skywalkers and insert in a new random one). With very little power to change anything that had been planned before. The things they added were also dubious (a bit less dubious in Rian's case and a total disaster when it comes to JJ and TROS).
I really can't see now how they thought it was going to be a success when you have like 6 main characters on the same time on screen during the 3 two hours long movies. Original trio + Ben + Rey + Finn (and his ladies tongue ).





As a long time fan, I had no problems wrrith Luke or Han's deaths, as they were so beautifully done and the characters had lived many years post ROTJ. In Carrie's case, sadly, they had no choice.
But I saw their deaths as a passing of the torch to the next generation as personified by Ben and Rey, if the two had married.
My problem is why, if they intended to erase the Skywalkers, did the last member of the generation be depicted as such a tragic, sympathetic character? Why do that to kill him off? Please, supporters of this sorry excuse for a film, don't say it's because his sacrifice at the end is therefore so touching.....because it ISN'T. Ben's death falls flat because it is completely glossed over. There is no mention of Rey telling her friends what he did, no scenes of her mourning him. There are comparisons of Titanic. But Old Rose's words gave her lover a beautiful epitaph.
"There was a man called Jack Dawson. And he saved me, in every way."
No such accolades for Ben. Not even a FG.
Then, if they decided to erase the Skywalkers.....why have Rey take the name? And why make her a Palpatine? Supporters insist it's a nice message that it doesn't matter where you come from, you can be your own person. But that was done already, and better, by Rian in TLJ. Making Rey a Palpatine is a complete insult. The Emperor gloats at the end that he's destroyed the Skywalkers. And ....he has. You can even say that Rey, a Palpatine, killed Ben because he gave his life force to her.
The huge mistake is that with this film they have not only sacrificecad the best character in the entire saga, they have turned their chosen heroine into someone I don't like anymore. Rey has ceased to be the likeable, relatable girl she was and has been reinvented as someone who wins because she's the superior version of Ben Solo. They've also destroyed Finn - he was supposed to rally the stormtroopers, instead we get a new character who essentially steals his thunder and also becomes his would be loved, presumably because people of colour can't fall in love with anyone who isn't the same ethnicity.
Meanwhile Poe, who would have been terrific as the new General, is turned into a second rate Han Solo.

What Disney or LF have failed to realise is that they have failed massively. Opinion polls on their SW website revealed Kylo was the most popular. Without him, these films fall flat. The success of the spin off comic proves that.

Finally....SanghaRen..... you're right about the merchandise. And I'm curious as o how not only the artbook but the official movie magazine has been delayed.
@motherofpearl1

I agree with you on most of the points about TROS.

My take in the first post was more on the business side of things and how the ST managed to alienate almost every fan group.. I agree that Luke's death was beautifully done - but it had a bad effect on a big chunk of fandom and was a root for the majority of TLJ criticism (irrational or not).
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 6:02 am

Pity is, I was looking forward to seeing him as a FG but it was done so poorly in TROS I was actually embarrassed!
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Post by vaderito on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 8:02 am

FG Luke and Leia were so bad, like an outtake from Van Helsing, so I'm happy that Ben had nothing to do with that aTROSity. I'll take ambiguous "what happened after he disappeared" over cotton candy vomit that were FG on Tatooine.

I just want to say something about fan service. It never satisfies because film-makers are not going to write a movie around fan service. They only squeeze it in where they can which means fans will end up unsatisfied because they didn't get more. Take Finn for example. Making him a FS was clearly a fan service to JB who lobbied for it and his fans. But it felt like it was just throwing a bone to them and no more than that. So JB (judging by his salt) and his fans are not happy. From what I saw, fans thought that making Finn FS would automatically elevate him to importance in Plot A aka the Force plot. However, in reality, his FS was lowkey and strictly contained to the filler side quest. So he remained in the B or C plot instead of becoming the part of the A plot. His FS was a throwaway reference in a filler, not an integral part of the integral story.

Likewise, they hated on Finn and Rose so that was scrapped. But instead of having someone who loves Finn, to reference Naomi's quote, he ended up in what everyone read as a one-sided crush on Rey, yelling her name and trying to tell her about his feelings and never getting a chance. Even though we know from Terrio that he tried to tell her he was FS. That shows what low priority FS thing was to them. It was a courtesy to the actor (and his fans) but nothing essential. Just "if we can squeeze it in somewhere we will but that's all we can do".

Point being, fan service =/= fans writing the story. In my example, if you want FS Finn, you should be prepared that it may not go the way you think (joining Rey in taking down Kylo/Palpy/KoR, wielding a lightsaber, being a bad*** warrior). And if you don't want Finn and Rose, you should be prepared that it may not be replaced by Finnrey or Finn/Poe or any other combo more popular than Finn and Rose. It could mean harboring unrequited crush or illusion of one. It's ironic that his trying to tell Rey he was FS (fan service) hurt his characterization because low importance of that reveal resulted in cutting the reveal and creating unrequited crush narrative. lol!
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Post by Moonjump05 on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 9:51 am

@Darth_Awakened wrote:Well, hello there!

It's been a long time Smile

I don't want to waste any words on TROS/TRASH analysis because everything I have in mind about the failure of a movie has already been said in here.

After all the disappointment, anger and sadness - I started to think about the ST as a whole -which is as painful as thinking about TROS Very Happy

I came with a couple of conclusions and further questions which I hope somebody from LF/Disney would speak up about in future (or not).

It looks pretty obvious to me the SKYWALKERS (those related by blood) had to go. It lead me to believe that Ben Solo was sentenced to death even before a word of a screenplay had been written down. Him killing his father was just a tool to make things more easier for the final execution.

I don't think that getting rid of Skywalkers was an artistic decision - I see it as a business one. The decision that failed a big deal. Not only with Ben Solo, but also with killing of Luke Skywalker in TLJ).

It remains to be seen if it was a Disney requirement to have new characters and content and all the credit in the future - or it was a weird thinking from LF story group based on some 40 years old George Lucas idea of the nine part family saga.

The fact is they failed a big deal - they underestimated the fans - aggressive or not, shippers or not, casuals or not, everyone in one word.
The new ST characters are simply BAD. I've spent a lot of time in the past defending Rey or Finn - but the final result of how the characters been written along the three movies is a disaster.

Did somebody in the story group (Dave Filoni?) thought that the content and the characters made for smaller scale of an audience and in a different form (multi seasonal cartoons) might work equally good on the big screen and for much bigger audience?
If it is the case - then I think they're or naive or simply not experienced enough.

I have also a dreaded feeling that the hired directors (JJ, Johnson) were just tools - to execute the whole story (aka kill off Skywalkers and insert in a new random one). With very little power to change anything that had been planned before. The things they added were also dubious (a bit less dubious in Rian's case and a total disaster when it comes to JJ and TROS).
I really can't see now how they thought it was going to be a success when you have like 6 main characters on the same time on screen during the 3 two hours long movies. Original trio + Ben + Rey + Finn (and his ladies tongue ).




@Darth_Awakened

I agree with you pretty much everywhere here, except for the story groups involvement and DF specifically. With the way previous narratives have been dropped in TRoS, it was clear the story group had little to no power in this. Especially the way TRoS handled the Jedi. Filoni has his faults, but the man worked closely with Lucas and his care when running TCW, Rebels and now Mandalorian shows. There would be no way we would have gotten the same TRoS if he was directing.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 10:47 am

@Moonjump05 wrote:
@Darth_Awakened wrote:Well, hello there!

It's been a long time Smile

I don't want to waste any words on TROS/TRASH analysis because everything I have in mind about the failure of a movie has already been said in here.

After all the disappointment, anger and sadness - I started to think about the ST as a whole -which is as painful as thinking about TROS Very Happy

I came with a couple of conclusions and further questions which I hope somebody from LF/Disney would speak up about in future (or not).

It looks pretty obvious to me the SKYWALKERS (those related by blood) had to go. It lead me to believe that Ben Solo was sentenced to death even before a word of a screenplay had been written down. Him killing his father was just a tool to make things more easier for the final execution.

I don't think that getting rid of Skywalkers was an artistic decision - I see it as a business one. The decision that failed a big deal. Not only with Ben Solo, but also with killing of Luke Skywalker in TLJ).

It remains to be seen if it was a Disney requirement to have new characters and content and all the credit in the future - or it was a weird thinking from LF story group based on some 40 years old George Lucas idea of the nine part family saga.

The fact is they failed a big deal - they underestimated the fans - aggressive or not, shippers or not, casuals or not, everyone in one word.
The new ST characters are simply BAD. I've spent a lot of time in the past defending Rey or Finn - but the final result of how the characters been written along the three movies is a disaster.

Did somebody in the story group (Dave Filoni?) thought that the content and the characters made for smaller scale of an audience and in a different form (multi seasonal cartoons) might work equally good on the big screen and for much bigger audience?
If it is the case - then I think they're or naive or simply not experienced enough.

I have also a dreaded feeling that the hired directors (JJ, Johnson) were just tools - to execute the whole story (aka kill off Skywalkers and insert in a new random one). With very little power to change anything that had been planned before. The things they added were also dubious (a bit less dubious in Rian's case and a total disaster when it comes to JJ and TROS).
I really can't see now how they thought it was going to be a success when you have like 6 main characters on the same time on screen during the 3 two hours long movies. Original trio + Ben + Rey + Finn (and his ladies tongue ).




@Darth_Awakened

I agree with you pretty much everywhere here, except for the story groups involvement and DF specifically. With the way previous narratives have been dropped in TRoS, it was clear the story group had little to no power in this. Especially the way TRoS handled the Jedi. Filoni has his faults, but the man worked closely with Lucas and his care when running TCW, Rebels and now Mandalorian shows. There would be no way we would have gotten the same TRoS if he was directing.
@Moonjump05

This might be true - but I had in mind pre-ST plans first and foremost, not TROS. I know that the SG was pretty much out of it.

Though they were heavily involved in the pre-ST era and the "end game". I may guess they were kicked out of it after TLJ blacklash.

Dave Filoni may handle well (I like TCW and Mando, Rebels not so much - but it all depends on the personal taste) the series where he has time and space to develop the characters.

Btw, it was all more of a question/speculation from my part - not a statement, because obviously I don't know what really had happened.

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Post by snufkin on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 12:11 pm

Just having seen all of the films, it feels pretty obvious that outside of the surface pew pew pew and Force powers dressing, that something went down behind the scenes. Certainly you can sense it in how a character like Lando is written in this movie, none of the depth or complexity shown in the OT or even in Solo. He's just there? Which feels like there's a split between how the new era writers about the point of the story - evolving the situation introduced at the start, along with giving the characters psychological depth/complexity versus trying to recreate childhood nostalgia. This film opted for the latter and then ending feels like they turned Rey and the other characters into theme park go-ers instead of an evolution/new generation to move the story into fresh territory. And I can tell y'all being in California, they're running TV ads right now for GE that make it already look boring as Hell beyond "ride the Falcon! be a Jedi!" Anything they did with the new ride, if people were meant to be thrilled by it thanks to the movie, then their strategy in hobbling the movie (literally trashed for a roller coaster ride) was to boost the park, then they bet on the wrong horse.

As for the choices made for Finn, whatever happened in the edit, it still would've landed with a thud. The entire 'reveal' that Leia is also Force sensitive when it happens in ESB is a more subtle shock than "No, I am your father." But it comes in a way that's a surprise, ties in with the micro (family) and macro (war/chase) drama happening in the final part of the movie. It's also her yet again taking charge of the rescue/escape which is entirely in character. Here, they couldn't even make up their mind about who Finn is supposed to be and when the moment does happen, it's an anvil dropping moment. He just feels her die and that's it, nothing else ever comes of it besides "oh and by the way, he's also FS." And his big moment isn't even handled in a dramatic way the shot of Leia sensing Luke was in ESB, it's more like he's had an attack of acid reflux.
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Post by vaderito on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 2:09 pm

I think that the problem with all ST characters is that LFL wanted a soft OT reboot to cleanse PT from the system. So 3 main characters were to follow OT characters beats which meant that no matter what their background, their fates were sealed. Kylo was Anakin/Vader with vader's destiny (redeems himself and dies after saving the loved one), Rey was Luke meaning the last Jedi and Finn was Han meaning someone unassociated with the rebels who becomes a rebel (he was even the smuggler originally but they changed his background without changing anything else).

Point being, Finn being a Trooper was never going to be of note. That was just a springboard for his joining the rebels cause OT had a smuggler who joined the rebels. Trooper revolution/revolt was never going to happen because they always wanted to have rebels 2.0 vs empire 2.0 finale. there was never going to be Empire 2.0 splitting in half with white troopers vs red troopers or whatever.

Rey was always going to be related to some bad guy but fans looked at the wrong one (Kylo). I believe Jason that Rey Palp have always been JJ's plan. It makes sense with how ST turned out. And she was going to resist the dark Side and become the last Jedi.

Kylo was always going to die saving Rey. Killing Han sealed it. We didn't want to believe it for Han would want him to live but they just had to follow the tried and true beat and that was it.

All 3 movies were soft reboot of OT movies. TLJ may have subverted outcome of some of familiar beats but it followed familiar beats. Just because Rey and Luke didn't get along and he didn't train her much, it doesn't mean that the beat wasn't the same. She goes for training, leaves untrained because something came up that she thinks is more important than training. been there done that. the only thing Rian did differently is putting ROTJ throne room in the second movie. But JJ immediately bounced back with his own throne room.

So yeah, these characters were doomed from the start just some fared better because OT model was more applicable to them. That's why Finn suffers the most. As the former storm trooper on the path to join rebels full time, he has to go through Han stages but smuggler's trajectory isn't compatible with ex storm trooper's. For one, nobody thought that underworld should join in with the rebels an masse. OTOH, since they established that troopers were stolen kids, you kept expecting that they would be liberated and that never happened. Add Poe's expanded role to cut into Finn's because he became New Han Too and you get underdeveloped characters and nonsense arcs.
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Post by Darth_Awakened on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 2:37 pm

@vaderito wrote:I think that the problem with all ST characters is that LFL wanted a soft OT reboot to cleanse PT from the system. So 3 main characters were to follow OT characters beats which meant that no matter what their background, their fates were sealed. Kylo was Anakin/Vader with vader's destiny (redeems himself and dies after saving the loved one), Rey was Luke meaning the last Jedi and Finn was Han meaning someone unassociated with the rebels who becomes a rebel (he was even the smuggler originally but they changed his background without changing anything else).

Point being, Finn being a Trooper was never going to be of note. That was just a springboard for his joining the rebels cause OT had a smuggler who joined the rebels. Trooper revolution/revolt was never going to happen because they always wanted to have rebels 2.0 vs empire 2.0 finale. there was never going to be Empire 2.0 splitting in half with white troopers vs red troopers or whatever.

Rey was always going to be related to some bad guy but fans looked at the wrong one (Kylo). I believe Jason that Rey Palp have always been JJ's plan. It makes sense with how ST turned out. And she was going to resist the dark Side and become the last Jedi.

Kylo was always going to die saving Rey. Killing Han sealed it. We didn't want to believe it for Han would want him to live but they just had to follow the tried and true beat and that was it.

All 3 movies were soft reboot of OT movies. TLJ may have subverted outcome of some of familiar beats but it followed familiar beats. Just because Rey and Luke didn't get along and he didn't train her much, it doesn't mean that the beat wasn't the same. She goes for training, leaves untrained because something came up that she thinks is more important than training. been there done that. the only thing Rian did differently is putting ROTJ throne room in the second movie. But JJ immediately bounced back with his own throne room.

So yeah, these characters were doomed from the start just some fared better because OT model was more applicable to them. That's why Finn suffers the most. As the former storm trooper on the path to join rebels full time, he has to go through Han stages but smuggler's trajectory isn't compatible with ex storm trooper's. For one, nobody thought that underworld should join in with the rebels an masse. OTOH, since they established that troopers were stolen kids, you kept expecting that they would be liberated and that never happened. Add Poe's expanded role to cut into Finn's because he became New Han Too and you get underdeveloped characters and nonsense arcs.
@vaderito

I completely agree with most of your points. Except one: I think Kylo/Ben (as the last Skywalker by blood) was doomed even before he killed Han.Not by something he did in TFA before the bridge scene but because I think that Killing off Skywalkers was one of the main goals of the trilogy Rolling Eyes
Rey Palps or Rey Nobody should have been a main hero who's transition from being nobody (because she actually was nobody until the middle of TROS - be it JJ's idea or not)to become a "Skywalker" and they hoped that everyone would identified with her. Which didn't happen - because nothing in that character was magnetic and interesting except who she might have been related to. It's a shame - because I totally loved her introduction in TFA.

Poe and Finn - I even don't want to comment on both. Total waste.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 2:43 pm

I've also been noticing the lack of merch this time around. As noted above, there's lots of the glitter-glue Kylo helmet, bits of Dark!Rey and the new characters, and don't forget the sith troopers, which got released before the other merch but were barely in the movie. A lot of the other TROS stuff, and there isn't even that much of it, looks a lot like earlier ST stuff. It's weird. I know they don't want to spoil the movie, and Christmas just happened, but look how quickly they got out lots of The Child/Baby Yoda merch, and that came out pretty close to TROS as well.

I've been asking about Rey's yellow saber, which looks like such an obvious merchandising/fan service ploy for the end of the saga, but where is it? And if there's no Palpatine in the art book, wow. What happened? So much of this movie seems to be a lot of people not knowing what's going on, or not being on the same page as each other.
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Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 3:30 pm

On the topic of merchandise, I have TFA Rey and Kylo Funko Pops and TLJ Rey and Kylo Funko Pops. IIRC, there were a few variations of both to choose from. I have the TFA Rey in her Ahch-To outfit holding Anakin's lightsaber but there were also Rey in her desert outfit with a staff, Rey in her desert outfit with the blue lightsaber, Kylo with helmet, Kylo without helmet, and so on. This time around there is Rey with a blue lightsaber, Dark Rey with a double red lightsaber, and Kylo with his Kintsugi helmet and red lightsaber. I would like to get Rey with her new yellow lightsaber and Ben Solo with a blaster or Anakin's lightsaber (and a hole in his shirt). I'm disappointed that there is so little selection.
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Post by Piper Maru on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 3:34 pm

The "OT soft reboot" concept was perfectly fine, but the execution completely sucked a**. That's all that matters. You can have your OT rehash but please, be competent. You want Rey to be Luke 2.0 (as my mom calls her) because you want to sell yellow lightsabers and pretend your mercenary company gives a s*** about representation? That's fine but at least try to add some depth to the character and adjust the narrative to the zeitgeist. You want Kylo to be Vader 2.0 and die for love? Perfectly ok, but pay attention to how the audience responded to the character and don't pull bait-and-switch with your fans. You want Finn to be Han 2.0? Nice! Just don't add dozens of characters (Poe, Zorii, Jannah, Rose) that take away screentime from him and please, write him a decent arc.


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Post by vaderito on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 3:36 pm

@Darth_Awakened wrote:  
I completely agree with most of your points. Except one: I think Kylo/Ben (as the last Skywalker by blood) was doomed even before he killed Han.Not by something he did in TFA before the bridge scene but because I think that Killing off Skywalkers was one of the main goals of the trilogy Rolling Eyes
Rey Palps or Rey Nobody should have been a main hero who's transition from being nobody (because she actually was nobody until the middle of TROS - be it JJ's idea or not)to become a "Skywalker" and they hoped that everyone would identified with her. Which didn't happen - because nothing in that character was magnetic and interesting except who she might have been related to. It's a shame - because I totally loved her introduction in TFA.

Poe and Finn - I even don't want to comment on both. Total waste.
@Darth_Awakened

Agreed, it seems that Rey Rey Skywalker was how they wanted to end ST and it was "OK, now find ways to kill all Skywalkers".  Rolling Eyes

@Piper Maru well said. I don't think they were ready to have a female hero. I think they were too unsure of how she should turn out and worried too much that she wouldn't be the most perfect role model for girls who doesn't offend any toy-purchasing demo. That robbed her of real characterization.

Also, they completely didn't expect that Kylo resonated more because he was an actual character, and then didn't do anything to adjust to this new situation.


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 19 Jan 2020, 3:41 pm

I defended these films. I argued with online trolls. I told them that it wasn't the end of SW, but a new beginning. I repeatedly defended Rey when they called her a Mary Sue.
I refused to listen to the fanboys who said they're ruined SW.

Heck, I was a fool. At least I got the Reylo community and a love of Kylo Ren, and a real appreciation of Adam Driver out of it.

It was worth that at least.
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