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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Piper Maru on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 6:15 pm

I honestly think they didn't think through these things at all and their entire trilogy is a mess of tone-deaf messages and unfortunate implications. They did stuff because "it looked cool" but didn't think of what they meant and how it could impact the audience (on both sides of the spectrum).
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 6:24 pm

@reylo1992 wrote:My understanding is that Reylo was the initial intention even if they wanted to make something bigger behind their dynamic but the political context heavily changed in a matter of 6 years. We live in a world where terrorist attacks have become a growing issue for western governements since 2015, not to mention all these scandals around gender imbalance since 2017. It certainly didn't play in favor of the character while DLF was already walking on eggs with that dynamic since their first interactions in TFA. Whether we like it or not, Kylo was more or less meant to symbolize from the beginning these young males who get seduced by some fanatic ideology, are ready to kill innocent people for this and display toxic masculinity. I think that DLF kept his background underlying because they didn't want to get backlash by giving the impression that they were giving excuse to his actions. They also wanted to show that for all his valid reasons to feel angry, desperate et rejected, he was also responsible for his own actions and that his interactions with Rey are not all about the fairytale that we tend to picture in our mind. As much as Reylos were right about Ben being a "gentle, understanding & tall" gentleman, he still brought harm and committed crimes behind a self-centered, possessive & toxic persona. That's why, as much as he is my favorite character and I relate to his struggle, I don't share the POV of people who now blame Rey for losing patience with, being agressive toward him and listening him: he's the one in the first place who pushes her to the edge from the beginning of their interactions in TROS. DLF could have chosen the easy road with an early redemption path but obviously his arc was set up until the beginning of the the third movie while the (geo)political context heavily changed meanwhile
@reylo1992

I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent, but at the same time, if DLF were afraid of potential backlash in making Reylo a canon romantic relationship, then a part of me wishes they hadn't bothered with it in the first place. They should've made Rey and Kylo siblings, cousins, or straightforward enemies, if a romance between the heroine and the conflicted villain was too scary or difficult for them to tell in today's world.

It seems like the planning for the ST was a mess, but Reylo is one of the few things that came out consistently interesting and heavily talked about. As I mentioned before, I don't know if DLF are ashamed of Reylo as a pairing, but I'd guess they didn't expect or want for it to become so popular, especially if the plan was always to have Ben die and Rey take his place as a Skywalker.
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Post by reylo1992 on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 6:53 pm

@toolonelytosleep wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:My understanding is that Reylo was the initial intention even if they wanted to make something bigger behind their dynamic but the political context heavily changed in a matter of 6 years. We live in a world where terrorist attacks have become a growing issue for western governements since 2015, not to mention all these scandals around gender imbalance since 2017. It certainly didn't play in favor of the character while DLF was already walking on eggs with that dynamic since their first interactions in TFA. Whether we like it or not, Kylo was more or less meant to symbolize from the beginning these young males who get seduced by some fanatic ideology, are ready to kill innocent people for this  and display toxic masculinity.  I think that DLF kept his background underlying because they didn't want to get backlash by giving the impression that they were giving excuse to his actions. They also wanted to show that for all his valid reasons to feel angry, desperate et rejected, he was also responsible for his own actions and that his interactions with Rey are not all about the fairytale that we tend to picture in our mind. As much as Reylos were right about Ben being a "gentle, understanding & tall" gentleman, he still brought harm and committed crimes behind a self-centered, possessive & toxic persona. That's why, as much as he is my favorite character and I relate to his struggle, I don't share the POV of people who now blame Rey for losing patience with, being agressive toward him and listening him: he's the one in the first place who pushes her to the edge from the beginning of their interactions in TROS. DLF could have chosen the easy road with an early redemption path but obviously his arc was set up until the beginning of the the third movie while the (geo)political context heavily changed meanwhile
@reylo1992

I get what you're saying, and I agree to an extent, but at the same time, if DLF were afraid of potential backlash in making Reylo a canon romantic relationship, then a part of me wishes they hadn't bothered with it in the first place. They should've made Rey and Kylo siblings, cousins, or straightforward enemies, if a romance between the heroine and the conflicted villain was too scary or difficult for them to tell in today's world.

It seems like the planning for the ST was a mess, but Reylo is one of the few things that came out consistently interesting and heavily talked about. As I mentioned before, I don't know if DLF are ashamed of Reylo as a pairing, but I'd guess they didn't expect or want for it to become so popular, especially if the plan was always to have Ben die and Rey take his place as a Skywalker.
@toolonelytosleep

I honestly dont think they were planning to kill him all along and have Rey taking the name. I think that they didn't expect Kylo to become a more popular character than Rey despite the parricide and that it might have become a problem. Men weren't so interested in Rey  and women understandably found Kylo attractive. So in the end, Kylo probably interested more both genders for different reasons + the fact that Adam played his inner struggles so well. So their female heroine was never so popular as the male antagonist, especially after TLJ when the idea of "two halves of our antagonist" was pushed. And let's be honest: as Reylos, most of us were seduced by the BATB concept that the monster becomes a nice guy thanks to the girl and were more interested in his complexity than hers. So it feels like TROS was a desperate attempt to put the female heroine in the front again and try to make her as complex as Kylo. The problem is it felt too pushy because:
1) Most movie decisions were centered around that goal at the expense of good storytelling
2) Everything was done to make the audience as less as possible interested in Kylo by cutting his scenes to the extreme and making him as unrelatable as possible
3) Despite Daisy's performance, the overcalculation behind the "cut cut policy" just killed the initial intention of a lot of scenes

And now DLF "hates" Reylos because the way we defend Ben is just the proof that their plan fell apart. That's why, I am not so confident about improvement over the next months. I hope they won't bring  more reasons to the GA not to relate to Ben because he committed even more terrible acts during his reign as Supreme Leader.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 7:21 pm

Pablo says these things, and if I'm a little skeptical it's largely because these things don't translate well on screen. When they say always planned, do they really mean since the beginning, or just TROS? Like we're still so unsure about the most basic stuff, and don't know who or what to trust after that baffling marketing campaign for TROS, that anything the creators and LF add to the discussion only brings more confusion. The film is such a mess, it's impossible to tell from the thing itself what it's going for, we need more conflicting input from others to get even a little closer to the truth. And even those involved in TROS often seemed to not be on the same page all the time.

Plus the fact that Pablo has never really liked fans in general. Maybe that's why I'm surprised he's calling the Reylos out specifically. Perhaps it's just a matter of time before he goes after other people again too. Or he's cranky because he and the SG got overruled or ignored, reulting in a movie he didn't like, and he's taking it out on others. The way John has been taking out his frustration on others.

But the fact TROS made decidedly less than what they would have wanted, and less than TLJ, should send a message that people didn't especially care for their decisions. Money speaks louder than most things to big studios, it would be against their interests not to take note. At least Kylo and Leia got Charles Soule and Claudia Gray to do them justice.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 7:41 pm

Thank you everyone for being so mature and discussing this from a logical point of view (even though it really sucked reading that from Pablo).

Reylo Twitter is exploding (I am sure Tumblr too), and I admit feeling concerned that it's getting too emotional. LF is truly not worth negative harm to personal well being.
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Post by toolonelytosleep on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 7:44 pm

@reylo1992

Yes, they probably didn't expect Kylo to become more popular than the heroes, and popular in the "wrong" way; meaning, they thought fans would be okay with Kylo dying like Vader, but that wasn't the case for many Kylo fans. I do think they planned for Kylo to always die, tbh. Everything we've heard so far, not one ending had Ben alive. But that's speculation on my part, not confirmation of anything.

And I'll out myself as a Reylo shipper who doesn't care much for Beauty and the Beast, not because I think it's an example of "Stockholm syndrome" or anything like that, but I'm typically not a fan of 'beautiful, pure girl inspires ugly, monstrous man to be good' stories, despite liking Reylo. No disrespect meant for those who enjoy BatB stories because I definitely understand the appeal and how Reylo shares similar elements.

Like many others, I predicted Rey would have a hand in Kylo's redemption, but Reylo appealed to me because I saw it as a story of two powerful, vulnerable, and lonely people connecting against all odds. I liked the intensity between them, and I thought they both elevated each other as characters. I'll take a challenging romance over the safe and easy ones, most of the time. After TLJ, I had a bit of hope DLF realized how much of a goldmine they struck with Adam and Daisy's chemistry and the dynamic between their two characters, but it seems their priorities were elsewhere. Who knows though. DLF's intentions for the ST puzzle me, in some ways. Laughing
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Post by Moonlight13 on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 7:51 pm

They can't give the GA reasons for them not to relate to Ben because of a very simple reason: the only way they can do it is through the EU, and they don't buy books/ comics, watch TV shows, etc. On the other hand, the part of the fandom that already loves Ben, wouldn't change their minds, they would only get angry and obviously not buy that stuff, and the part that already hates him would just continue to hate him, regardless of what comes out. So if that is their strategy, then they already lost.
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Post by reylo1992 on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 8:07 pm

Agree. Of course, I don't think Reylos ever reduced the dynamic to a BATB thing but it was part of the narrative and DLF definitely pushed in that direction. I can't believe that we just imagined things that weren't there. After TFA, I thought like many of us Reylo was going to be reverse Anidala and end like BATB where Anidala ended like Romeo & Juliet. TLJ was already a painful realization that it wouldn't be that simple, probably the reason why I didn't react bad to TROS at first. I am actually more frustrated by the fact that it became such a big mess that the potential of the ST went down because of that. And watching the red carpet + the ceremony frankly gave me even more the impression that something turned sour behind the scene even if it must be taken with a grain of salt given the few images we got. John & Daisy's speech honoring Kathleen didn't sound really genuine, John clearly threw shade while trying to be funny and they spent more time talking about their characters than anything else. Daisy saying that Rey was "instrumental in embracing female inclusivity" while John implied it wasn't inclusive enough for POC. I wonder what went through Adam's mind while he was sort of "pouting" (or biting his lips) during the speech but I feel for him. Whatever the reason, it's clear that he genuinely loves his character and didn't see him like an instrument:
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 38 Captu108
https://twitter.com/Riri19911/status/1224111778340265986
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 8:58 pm

Adam looked pretty sad, like he was almost tearing up. He cares about his character, a lot. Kind of makes it harder to let go of all this, an actor famously leery of blockbusters and franchises, but cared about and insinuated that he related on a personal level to Kylo most of all.

As for LFL, what did they expect when they cast an actor like Adam? Who so brilliantly played Kylo’s inner turmoil and anguish. They made his character the son of Han & Leia, of course people would care. Even as a villain, he was never gleeful, always eternally miserable. They added a super sad backstory on top of that in extended canon materials. They didn’t have to do all of this. The fans weren’t forcing them to. As soon as he was unmasked in TFA, he was immediately humanised in a way that Vader wasn’t until his final moments in the OT.

As much as I enjoyed the ST, even before TRoS, I thought that the way everything broke down between the OT3 + Ben’s fall was immensely depressing (good, risky & interesting writing, but still extremely tragic). But I thought it was all leading to an endpoint that would mean something - aka the prodigal son returns, their sacrifices are not in vain. But now it’s just a long endless parade of misery. I don’t even mind tragedy in storytelling usually, but it’s not right for something like SW (genre is important), and most importantly, I think it’s the lack of catharsis that’s making it so hard for people to process it all and move on. A tragedy that doesn’t even acknowledge that it’s a tragedy and pretends it’s all a happy ending? That’s the worst kind. As paradoxical as it is, the grief is what actually helps you to move on. But here, there’s no grief depicted, there’s a failure to acknowledge the last Skywalker, like he never existed. It feels insulting to his character and to the audience too, for investing all this time in his character.

It really really wasn’t worth upending the ending of ROTJ for this. Besides all the horrible things TRoS does to Rey’s character (the pure virginal character shoehorned into being a Palpatine), it’s also immensely hard to even think about or watch the OT knowing how it all ends, for Han & Leia especially, and their son. And yes, SW has done tragedy before with the prequels, but the difference was that it came after the OT (so George was retroactively humanising Vader, and there was still that hope with Luke and Leia’s births, knowing the heroes they would later become, iconic characters in their own right. All the family members weren’t dead). So honestly, I would trade in Kylo’s existence to preserve that, or maybe they should have just made Rey a Skywalker from the beginning instead idk. It would have hurt much less.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 9:34 pm

The more they explain or comment, the more confounding it becomes. They very well knew Kylo's popularity, and the way many people relate or respond to him. There's so much both on and off screen that's left unexplained, the pieces of what happened and how and why just don't match up. The cast seemed so happy for so much of the press tour, until they actually saw it. What were they expecting that didn't happen?
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Post by snufkin on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 9:40 pm

At least from the perspective of somebody who was a kid in the theater when "No, I am your father" dropped, that immediately pushed the story in a more interesting and human direction. It wasn't about the shock as much as realizing something even more sad and tragic happened to Luke's parents than what Obi Wan lied to him about. Vader also went from just being this implacable force of evil to somebody pathetic and tragic because he obviously was human enough at some point to have loved/fathered a child (and you assume Luke's mother is dead b/c of whatever happened). I also remember going into RotJ with the hope (because these stories should be hopeful) that both he and Han would be saved from the horrible fates that likely both circumstance and their own hubris/mistakes had trapped them in. In this situation, there's literally no shock or interesting direction at the 11th Hour to turn Rey Nobody from Nowhere who's the author of her own story into Rey Palpatine. Other that all the people who're joking about "Who f**ked the Emperor's creepy a**?!" and the sounds of nostalgia and fan service closing in on poor Rey like the walls of a trash compactor. Same goes for killing off Ben - sure we can joke about him dying of embarrassment over terrible writing the way Padme died of the sads. But the entire logic of planning a movie around obvious set pieces meant to evoke nostalgia for audience members of a certain age and then trying to half a** write around that, instead of the actual best characters and their relationship/dynamic, is what befell him. Got whisked off to the Disney Vault so that they could check off the "BFG group hug hooray!" and "Rey finishes her trip to nostalgia land by visiting the most depressing part which has no actual emotional connection to her personally" moments.
Maybe the actor told them that he'd only do 3 movies and then they had to kill him off. But Disney is dumb because he could've been alive at the end to go Ronin/wander doing atonement for his years with the First Order and there would've been an insane demand (look at the comic books being on a 3rd printing) alone for any tie-in novels, games, and comics for those stories.


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Post by SoloSideCousin on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 11:15 pm

Pablo did some damage control on his tweet. He apparently pitched for Ben to live at the end of VIII, so the death may not have been inevitable.  Pablo can be a jerk, but he doesn't like.

I found it funny that he did the damage control in a matter of hours. Let me see if I can find a link.  I thought that you could not post tweets here anymore, but I guess you can link them?

https://twitter.com/SWBlueheart/status/1224131534615126017?s=09

https://twitter.com/SWBlueheart/status/1224137470872256512?s=09

Take it as you will. I think that I believe him with the Ben living pitch, but I laughed with that quick turnaround. The anger on Twitter was bad. People were done. And then suddenly he can appear, like magic, when the norm for LF is to let Reylos twist in the wind.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Sun 02 Feb 2020, 11:43 pm

Gdi, they should have listened to Pablo. That tweet is also pretty significant because it means that Kylo’s death wasn’t something that was mandated by LFL. But then again, he said that was when VIII was getting started which was around 2014, and in the Korean leaks of the TRoS art book didn’t it say something about Rey Skywalker being decided in 2014? Or am I misremembering?
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 12:39 am

@SoloSideCousin That's really interesting, for whatever reason I associate with him not liking Kylo. And I really, really wish he hadn't singled out Reylos. But I also think he understands storytelling better than some of the actual filmmakers. And will probably go after some other group sooner or later, as he's prone to do. And he doesn't have a reputation for fake BS. It's proven both a blessing and a curse. No nonsense, only brutal honesty, but also so inconsiderate and even mean to fans at times.

How fascinating Kylo's death wasn't predetermined from day one, though that too leaves an icky feeling. So what part of the loose plan JJ referred to numerous times this year was in TROS? Maybe the redemption. I don't believe any version of Kylo beyond mid-late 2013 exists where he wasn't redeemed.
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Post by Birdwoman on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 12:49 am

After TROS, I figured they didn't have the total arc spelled out for Kylo and that they would go with whatever the new director wanted. For me, it is too bad that they picked writers who were not very imaginative. I do believe, if a woman like Greta Gerwig directed we might have got an epic love story even if Kylo died at the end.

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Post by snufkin on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 2:24 am

As much as I love the idea of somebody taking up the baton from Rian, especially a woman writing/directing it, we know how f**king insane some people were towards Rian and Kelly for "Not my Star Wars." That'd be like even more insane in response. Which I have no f**king clue when that mentality cropped up and took hold b/c I don't even remember knowing/talking to anybody male during the OT era who was in any way shape or form passionate about Star Wars. It was always other girls and my older sisters. I think despite the money/prestige, at some level in the chain of command, Disney really didn't get it. Hence hiring Trevorrow and scuppering everything interesting/complex in the story which likely were ideas from Arndt, Kasdan, Rian, and Carrie. Plus there was some level of freakout/walkback from TLJ b/c they planned on rolling out multiple product lines around the same time period and didn't want to alienate any customers (which basically, they marketed it as a 42 year in the making film but that didn't mean it was treated with the care that should have merited).


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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 2:28 am

@special_cases wrote:I kind of get Pablo's point because some people are obsessed with an idea that they completely changed Ben's fate in post - which is absurd and these people refuse to listen to reason. Some of them have huge following, and some of them were the ones who were insulting everybody who was saying that leaks are true and also spread lies about Reyloismine. They totally need a call out for their lies and conspiracies but Pablo should have never said "Reylos". Seriously, nobody is saying "OT stans", "Poe fans", "FinnPoes", people love to generalise only us. A lot of us are also SW fans and were fans before Reylo existed.

Not to say that there was much popular conspiracy from AntiReylo on STC that JJ was bullied into changing the end and that he hated Reylo.

I'm one of those who seriously thought they'd changed it post, but largely because the whole thing was so poorly done. The visual effects were dodgy for a start. It just didn't look right. A ten year old could have made a better job of it.
Then there's Rey's reaction afterwards. At best it was unconcerned, at worst unbelievably callous. Ben Solo, son of her mentor Leia, a man she'd kissed, had cared for....
Gave his life to save her and she didn't.give.a.toss.
No mention of him. No tears. No mourning. She cried more over Han's death, and she barely knew him. We genuinely believed this ending had been changed, because it turned Rey from a warm, generous hearted girl into a lofty uncaring creature full of her own self importance. In short, it destroyed her likeability.
I now despise her. I'm actually sorry Daisy had to do this to her character.

I'm also disturbed that several people on twitter are actually accusing reylos of harassing Adam and his family. This is news to me. None of the people on this forum have shown Adam and Jo anything but respect. The mods have fiercely protected his privacy. And Adam, at least in the interviews I've seen with him, has never shown any animosity towards us. In fact he went online to express his gratitude towards reylos who raised a fortune for AITAF, which was amazing considering he hates social media.

A lot of us, like me, were devastated at how LF chose to end Ben's story. But no way did we take it out on any of the cast, especially Adam who I suspect was also deeply unhappy with the creative decisions, but like Kelly chose to deal with it in a dignified manner.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 2:45 am

@Kylo Rey wrote:Adam looked pretty sad, like he was almost tearing up. He cares about his character, a lot. Kind of makes it harder to let go of all this, an actor famously leery of blockbusters and franchises, but cared about and insinuated that he related on a personal level to Kylo most of all.

As for LFL, what did they expect when they cast an actor like Adam? Who so brilliantly played Kylo’s inner turmoil and anguish. They made his character the son of Han & Leia, of course people would care. Even as a villain, he was never gleeful, always eternally miserable. They added a super sad backstory on top of that in extended canon materials. They didn’t have to do all of this. The fans weren’t forcing them to. As soon as he was unmasked in TFA, he was immediately humanised in a way that Vader wasn’t until his final moments in the OT.

As much as I enjoyed the ST, even before TRoS, I thought that the way everything broke down between the OT3 + Ben’s fall was immensely depressing (good, risky & interesting writing, but still extremely tragic). But I thought it was all leading to an endpoint that would mean something - aka the prodigal son returns, their sacrifices are not in vain. But now it’s just a long endless parade of misery. I don’t even mind tragedy in storytelling usually, but it’s not right for something like SW (genre is important), and most importantly, I think it’s the lack of catharsis that’s making it so hard for people to process it all and move on. A tragedy that doesn’t even acknowledge that it’s a tragedy and pretends it’s all a happy ending? That’s the worst kind. As paradoxical as it is, the grief is what actually helps you to move on. But here, there’s no grief depicted, there’s a failure to acknowledge the last Skywalker, like he never existed. It feels insulting to his character and to the audience too, for investing all this time in his character.

It really really wasn’t worth upending the ending of ROTJ for this. Besides all the horrible things TRoS does to Rey’s character (the pure virginal character shoehorned into being a Palpatine), it’s also immensely hard to even think about or watch the OT knowing how it all ends, for Han & Leia especially, and their son. And yes, SW has done tragedy before with the prequels, but the difference was that it came after the OT (so George was retroactively humanising Vader, and there was still that hope with Luke and Leia’s births, knowing the heroes they would later become, iconic characters in their own right. All the family members weren’t dead). So honestly, I would trade in Kylo’s existence to preserve that, or maybe they should have just made Rey a Skywalker from the beginning instead idk. It would have hurt much less.
This.
If they wanted the whole thing to focus on Rey they should have made her a Skywalker by blood. Either Luke or Leia's long lost daughter. Then you get the continuence of the Skywalker name, Princess Rey and no romantic lead. And Kylo should have been a one note bad guy like Maul.

Instead they made him an abuse victim, Han's son, a person struggling with his conscience, with mental illness. They made people love him. They made them identify with him. They made them sympathise with him. And then they callously killed him off.
To quote Cersei Lannister:
"Why did you do that?"
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Post by MaddieDove on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 3:19 am

@reylo1992 wrote:Agree. Of course, I don't think Reylos ever reduced the dynamic to a BATB thing but it was part of the narrative and DLF definitely pushed in that direction. I can't believe that we just imagined things that weren't there. After TFA, I thought like many of us Reylo was going to be reverse Anidala and end like BATB where Anidala ended like Romeo & Juliet. TLJ was already a painful realization that it wouldn't be that simple, probably the reason why I didn't react bad to TROS at first. I am actually more frustrated by the fact that it became such a big mess that the potential of the ST went down because of that. And watching the red carpet + the ceremony frankly gave me even more the impression that something turned sour behind the scene even if it must be taken with a grain of salt given the few images we got. John & Daisy's speech honoring Kathleen didn't sound really genuine, John clearly threw shade while trying to be funny and they spent more time talking about their characters than anything else. Daisy saying that Rey was "instrumental in embracing female inclusivity" while John implied it wasn't inclusive enough for POC. I wonder what went through Adam's mind while he was sort of "pouting" (or biting his lips) during the speech but I feel for him. Whatever the reason, it's clear that he genuinely loves his character and didn't see him like an instrument:  
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 38 Captu108
https://twitter.com/Riri19911/status/1224111778340265986
@reylo1992

I feel sorry for KK, this occasion should have been a triumph, if only the last movie was artistically and commercially successful as it most certainly had the potential to be. To listen John Williams' score over her going on stage is now tainted with sadness over a missed opportunity. Maybe even Adam would smile, or at least have relaxed features in a genuine happiness for her.

So, I sympathize on a human level, but it's her responsibility. If she's getting recognized for the successes of these movies, she's also responsible for failures. And the ST ended as an artistic failure and disappointment, and probably bad business in the long run. It's a pity.

As for Daisy's and John's lines, they read it, it's scripted. All of this is just a performance.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 3:36 am

TBH the only people I feel sorry for are:
Adam, whose screen time was cut and his character butchered.
Kelly, whose treatment was a disgrace.
The people who emerged from TROS in tears, especially the children. And at Christmas.

None of the movers and shakers at DLF stopped for one minute to consider those poor kids, or the real life abuse victims who identified with Ben Solo. They knew d*** well how popular this character was with people who have been traumatized in real life, and with kids. They knew because it was all over social media. They broke the hearts of a lot of vulnerable people. And again, at Christmas.
I have zero sympathy for any of them.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 4:21 am

@MaddieDove wrote:
@reylo1992 wrote:Agree. Of course, I don't think Reylos ever reduced the dynamic to a BATB thing but it was part of the narrative and DLF definitely pushed in that direction. I can't believe that we just imagined things that weren't there. After TFA, I thought like many of us Reylo was going to be reverse Anidala and end like BATB where Anidala ended like Romeo & Juliet. TLJ was already a painful realization that it wouldn't be that simple, probably the reason why I didn't react bad to TROS at first. I am actually more frustrated by the fact that it became such a big mess that the potential of the ST went down because of that. And watching the red carpet + the ceremony frankly gave me even more the impression that something turned sour behind the scene even if it must be taken with a grain of salt given the few images we got. John & Daisy's speech honoring Kathleen didn't sound really genuine, John clearly threw shade while trying to be funny and they spent more time talking about their characters than anything else. Daisy saying that Rey was "instrumental in embracing female inclusivity" while John implied it wasn't inclusive enough for POC. I wonder what went through Adam's mind while he was sort of "pouting" (or biting his lips) during the speech but I feel for him. Whatever the reason, it's clear that he genuinely loves his character and didn't see him like an instrument:  
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 38 Captu108
https://twitter.com/Riri19911/status/1224111778340265986
@reylo1992

I feel sorry for KK, this occasion should have been a triumph, if only the last movie was artistically and commercially successful as it most certainly had the potential to be. To listen John Williams' score over her going on stage is now tainted with sadness over a missed opportunity. Maybe even Adam would smile, or at least have relaxed features in a genuine happiness for her.

So, I sympathize on a human level, but it's her responsibility. If she's getting recognized for the successes of these movies, she's also responsible for failures. And the ST ended as an artistic failure and disappointment, and probably bad business in the long run. It's a pity.

As for Daisy's and John's lines, they read it, it's scripted. All of this is just a performance.
@MaddieDove

Genuine question: don't the presenters have any say about the speech they pronounce?
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Post by Piper Maru on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 4:40 am

@reylo1992

For these awards, everything is scripted. From the jokes to the people presenting.
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Post by SoloSideCousin on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 4:43 am

@californiagirl

I think that redemption was always in the cards. Also, Pablo.may not like Kylo/Ben, but I imagine that he loves the Skywalkers and wants them to survive.

@motherofpearl, they did change stuff in post towards the end. You can see it in the quality.  They may have changed the first third the most by cutting a bunch of stuff of out, (for sure slashing Kylo and the Vader fanatics and the whole point of the mask and the KoR), but Smurf Luke on Achto was obviously shot later because it looked like s***. Someone on Twitter proved in a 2 minute video that Rey standing in front of the sunsets was a copy and paste job from a a shot of her standing on Pasana. Maryann Brandon came up with some unconvincing bs to argue against that.  The whole Sith stadium thing was blue and fuzzy and the Sith were cut and paste. This is all Visual effects work that couldn't get done. The Resistance base didn't even have a shelter. It was ferns set up in the forest.  Rey was as dark af in the Art of TROS book and she did not disappear when she died. Ben could have been saving her soul when he brought her back. Adam and Daisy are obviously talking in the final scenes, but they use shots to cover it up as much as possible.  It was a body double for a some masked Kylo scenes. I mean the fake masked Kylo had a slight beer belly. Rey has no reaction when Kylo tells her "you're a Palpatine" in that ridiculous hanger scene. IMO huge chunks of the movie were thrown out and editing cobbled stuff together.

@kylo rey, the Rey Skywalker and Ben living are not mutually exclusive. That Rey Skywalker actually would have been almost pleasant had she been Rey Nobody.

And the more I think about I definitely believe Pablo pitching the idea of Ben being on Achto at the end of IX, because Kylo made sure that Exegol and Achto were connected in the WBW. He put in a basis to maybe get what he wants someday.
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Post by vaderito on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 5:41 am

I didn't read it like that. Pablo said "don't tell Reylos" re: first act changes and Reylos already know that Oracle was scrapped. So, IMO, that's what he's referring too, scrapping of Oracle who grilled Kylo on his feelings for Rey. The opening was supposed to be very Reylo but they changed it.

So no conspiracy on Pablo's part and also Ben alive on Ahch-to isn't a bad thing compared to what we got. At least he figured out that he should live while the rest of them were bent on killing him. cause they got such great assets for future stories in Zorii, Jannah and Beaumont Kit. lol!
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Mon 03 Feb 2020, 5:48 am

@californiagirl wrote:It's unclear what the intention behind Ben's death was, in either concept or execution. Pablo isn't making it clearer with these comments. But he didn't like TROS at all either, and also loved TLJ, so.... what is he trying to say here? None of this is really that enlightening. He seems more like he's trying to piss people off for the sake of pissing people off. If they didn't care about the Solos, and didn't want anyone else to either, why make a movie about Han that immediately preceded TROS in the first place? If it's supposed to be silly, why have Kylo written and acted in such a serious manner? If Rey is to forget about him immediately, why have her kiss him, or even have any kind of non-antagonistic relationship with him across multiple movies? If JJ never wanted a romance, why was he talking about a love story from 2013 onwards? It's just not adding up.

And seriously, what's with the continued demonization of the Reylos? Do people actually believe this, and if so, why?
@californiagirl
He was talking about Luke&Leia. Laughing
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