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Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars...

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Post by AhsokaTano on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 9:34 am

With project luminous few hours away am just going to leave this here :
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Skywalker’s literally are the cosmic force and come from the cosmic force - insider magazine literally has Anakin originate from a Star ( how biblical can you get ?)
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So at the end of TROS you have the son of the suns ( Ben as cosmic force fulfilling son of the suns prophecy ) , Rey and Bb8 represents infinity with the number 8 being the number for infinity . The number 8 symbolises infinity and it comes from a coupled singularity( two that are one , the dyad , cosmic and living force etc ) - the snake symbol we have been seeing again and again in Star Wars ( Loki’s symbol) just to remind us that like Loki and the stars we are made of fire , energy , spirit and like the snake or dragon symbol of ouroboros which is a circle ( Star Wars uses cyclical imagery and ring theory in how it unfolds the saga ) that spirit goes on and gives birth and resurrects . It does not die . No one is ever gone .
The image at the end with Rey , Bb8 and the twin suns is telling us that the cosmic force ( God incarnated in the skywalkers) plus living force ie Rey who is the beloved as Jedi = equals infinity symbolised by Bb8 . We go on. Am almost certain Jj was using Isaiah Old Testament stuff as inspiration as that’s all about God as bridegroom and his beloved and bride and how he hides from her ( masked ) but then doesn’t and then will never leave her and will call her by a new name( ie Skywalker). We know the name Skywalker isn’t unique as the chiss children are called Skywalkers ( presumably because kids are closer to the force /creator ) and in Star Wars most people adopt different names and don’t use their birth names . The above would explain why rey isn’t sad at the end either because the force ( Ben ) is with her always . He is tied to her as she is to him. She has access to the cosmic force just as he will to the living force via the dyad . The possibilities are endless what they could do with Rey and Ben . No one is ever truly gone as Star Wars tells us .
I’ve been mulling this stuff over and over for weeks now trying to make sense of what we have been given so far and remembering that Star Wars is myth and faith . This is what makes it different to other franchises . I could be completely barking up the wrong tree as always and this is all BS what I’ve come up with . Let’s see what project luminous brings us .

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Snake imagery throughout Star Wars including the snake beast Rey heals , the braids , tentacle creatures , lekku, palps snake costume in revenge of the Sith , Leia’s ring . Snake is a symbol for Loki who is made of fire and a spirit who is able to shapeshift.
Also Star Wars using the chakra colours and the celebration mural at Chicago this year reminds us that indigo is the colour for TROS - the spiritual awakening of the third eye ( daisy Ridley’s cyclops reference clue to TROS ) - if you look at the indigo meaning that is really interesting:
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Post by vaderito on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 10:07 am

project Luminious is a YA novel lol. No thanks. Done with YA.

Also, BB8 as a metaphor for one of twin suns is the most horrible thing. WTF was JJ thinking? Oh yes, he wanted to honor characters he created even if they made no sense in the context.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 1:24 pm

@Sacrebleu Yes, the lack of TROS merch is genuinely weird. Either they had already given up, or they didn't have time to make stuff with the late shoots/reshoots/re-edits.

@vaderito There was mention of a YA book and a kids' novel yesterday, but the Luminous thing seems fairly expansive with a handful of established SW writers. The swirling rumors of an interconnected thing based around one time period would make sense, I suppose they could go more thematic, but not sure if LF is in that mindset.

@SW_Heroine_Journey I believe they've been bringing this up since Celebration, and I wish they hadn't mentioned it until NYCC in October, since they couldn't say anything about it until the press event today.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 1:40 pm

This is one of the Luminous writers.

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I too love Babu Frik. Smile

Said he would like to write Ben/Kylo one day, though he does dig the noble self-sacrifice part of it.

Wow, between him and the Kylo/TROS comic artist, that's two people who openly love Ben on social media in a matter of days. Nice to know not everyone who works on SW projects is a weird Kylo/Reylo hater.
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Post by snufkin on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 1:59 pm

The thing with Project Luminous is that when you base some of the pitch being writers who've done previous tie-in novels with the films, including working directly with the SG and Rian Johnson, and then the subsequent/final movie tosses all of that world building and character history out the window, why would I want to invest myself in it? Claudia Gray wrote Bloodline and Leia, Princess of Alderaan in coordination with LFL and Rian Johnson using plotlines/characters that were part of the original plot for TFA and including the back story for her friendship with Holdo and prior experience with Crait for TLJ. Which get ignored by TRoS as she's now a Force Ghost married to her twin brother and they forget about her biological child to adopt a grown woman. Or how prior to his Christmas Eve meltdown, DJ Older wrote Last Shot to give the back story and "what happened next" for Han, Leia, and Lando. Which TRoS scuppers for Lando and even then, never bothers to explain (you'll need to buy the Visual Dictionary) that his life on Pasaana was like Rey's on Jakku, holding vigil for a daughter who'd been kidnapped from him by the First Order. Which isn't what he was up to in Empire's End or Last Shot and it's not like having the explanation in the Visual Dictionary even makes things better for Lando. At least Han gets some kind of resolution for his "my child was stolen from me" plotline.

As it stands, the entire selling point of PL is "more Star Wars." When the Star Wars they just dropped 2 months ago scuppered 5-6 years' worth of trying to do consistent/quality writing across the novels and films to answer the question of "what happened over the past 30 years?" for that fictional universe and its characters. I've no doubt that the type of fans who are ride or die for that fictional universe will happily invest themselves into whatever these novels/stories may be. But the entire sell of the ST was quality and consistency in telling the story and bringing emotional/psychological depth to the characters. Which TRoS backed away from, so why would anybody who was excited by the new films and novels not be disappointed by TRoS and especially not excited by PL?
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 2:42 pm

@californiagirl wrote:This is one of the Luminous writers.

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I too love Babu Frik. Smile

Said he would like to write Ben/Kylo one day, though he does dig the noble self-sacrifice part of it.

Wow, between him and the Kylo/TROS comic artist, that's two people who openly love Ben on social media in a matter of days. Nice to know not everyone who works on SW projects is a weird Kylo/Reylo hater.
@californiagirl

Also an interesting conversation I had with him in this thread. He liked 2 tweets, the one where I ask about Rey's expression change and the last one about Ben's fate
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Post by AhsokaTano on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 3:31 pm

@Reylo1992
Interesting views from Cavan Scott - The more I mull it over the more am convinced Ben is ok and Rey knows that . No one is ever gone in Star Wars and Jedi don’t see going back to the force as a bad thing but as the ideal . I guess we’ll know more from the novel but the dyad would mean surely that Ben too is part of the living force just as Rey is part of the cosmic . Their bond isn’t like an ordinary force bond that ends in death . Their dyad bond we are told transcends space and time .
I’ve noticed too with TROS there is kind of a division on how women and men view the whole Ben’s fate and his sacrifice . The reylos mainly women ( though some men too)like us tend to be upset by it( though I am trying to find ways round it as don’t believe they’ll just let Ben stay dead ) and the men see it as Ben being noble, protective and showing complete love for Rey . Just goes to show men and women do think differently and obi wan was right that the truth is subject to your point of view and opinion.
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Post by unicorn on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 3:57 pm

@snufkin wrote: As it stands, the entire selling point of PL is "more Star Wars." When the Star Wars they just dropped 2 months ago scuppered 5-6 years' worth of trying to do consistent/quality writing across the novels and films to answer the question of "what happened over the past 30 years?" for that fictional universe and its characters. I've no doubt that the type of fans who are ride or die for that fictional universe will happily invest themselves into whatever these novels/stories may be. But the entire sell of the ST was quality and consistency in telling the story and bringing emotional/psychological depth to the characters. Which TRoS backed away from, so why would anybody who was excited by the new films and novels not be disappointed by TRoS and especially not excited by PL?

@snufkin

This.

And I will clearly never again watch or read a multi-part SW story before all is said and done, so I can estimate if it´s even worth reading or watching as a whole.
I´m not interested in such a letdown for a second time.
They had only one job: to drive this story home. But instead they crashed it willingly and fullspeed into a concrete wall.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 4:33 pm

When the Kylo comic is doing as well as it is (the third issue is on it's second printing), and there are multiple known SW authors who have openly said they want to write Kylo/Ben, I have a hard time believing they'll never do anything with him again. Give it some years, and probably new management, and he'll come back in some form.
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Post by reylo1992 on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 4:36 pm

@AhsokaTano wrote:@Reylo1992
Interesting views from Cavan Scott - The more I mull it over the more am convinced Ben is ok and Rey knows that . No one is ever gone in Star Wars and Jedi don’t see going back to the force as a bad thing but as the ideal . I guess we’ll know more from the novel but the dyad would mean surely that Ben too is part of the living force just as Rey is part of the cosmic . Their bond isn’t like an ordinary force bond that ends in death . Their dyad bond we are told transcends space and time .
I’ve noticed too with TROS there is kind of a division on how women and men view the whole Ben’s fate and his sacrifice . The reylos mainly women ( though some men too)like us tend to be upset by it( though I am trying to find ways round it as don’t believe they’ll just let Ben stay dead ) and the men see it as Ben being noble, protective and showing complete love for Rey . Just goes to show men and women do think differently and obi wan was right that the truth is subject to your point of view and opinion.
@AhsokaTano

Chef's kiss to your previous post. I have never doubted that Ben is okay whatever his fate is. The fact that Adam picked up during his Pop Corn interview a song where a guy leaves for an unknown amount of time but promisesto bring his girl a wedding ring is already a a good indication that disappearance doesn't necessarily mean the end of their story. Even if he's dead for good, it's not so dramatic in itself because we know that they can be reunited in the afterlife in one way or another. It's the execution that unfortunately derails the intention that the ending was meant to convey. I believe that he left with peace and purpose and Rey sensed it the same way she sensed it with Luke. The difference is that Luke was an old man without any blossoming romance, was given a beautiful last scene full of symbolism and that Leia & Rey mentioned him leaving with "peace & purpose" enabled the viewer to mourn and "heal" from his death easily.



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Post by snufkin on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 5:31 pm

@unicorn wrote:
@snufkin wrote: As it stands, the entire selling point of PL is "more Star Wars." When the Star Wars they just dropped 2 months ago scuppered 5-6 years' worth of trying to do consistent/quality writing across the novels and films to answer the question of "what happened over the past 30 years?" for that fictional universe and its characters. I've no doubt that the type of fans who are ride or die for that fictional universe will happily invest themselves into whatever these novels/stories may be. But the entire sell of the ST was quality and consistency in telling the story and bringing emotional/psychological depth to the characters. Which TRoS backed away from, so why would anybody who was excited by the new films and novels not be disappointed by TRoS and especially not excited by PL?

@snufkin

This.

And I will clearly never again watch or read a multi-part SW story before all is said and done, so I can estimate if it´s even worth reading or watching as a whole.
I´m not interested in such a letdown for a second time.
They had only one job: to drive this story home. But instead they crashed it willingly and fullspeed into a concrete wall.

@unicorn

Same. I remember reading Splinter of the Mind's Eye to go along with watching the OT during childhood (which that novel doesn't realize yet the family relations between the main characters) but skipped the EU because I need more than just "it's Star Wars" to sell me on why I should care. It's clear that something happened within the chain of command at LFL, likely around why Kiri Hart departed and is now part of Rian's new production company. But I can't imagine that outside of the "we'll love anything if it's Star Wars" type of fans who stuck around in between the trilogies and who helped drive some of the more insane moments of The Discourse around the ST (which TRoS then delivered), why other readers would be interested in a multi-novel project? Especially when TRoS just burned down 4-5 years' worth of brand/worldbuilding.

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 7:04 pm

High Republic for Luminous confirmed. Not surprised. At least they're going very far away from the saga, which they botched, but they still have a brand to carry on, might as well go somewhere new with new characters. No idea if this will eventually carry into movies or whatnot. I feel like they aren't doing Old Republic because they really do want that to be a movie series someday.

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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 9:10 pm

And yes I rolled my eyes at the title and general aesthetic and time frame, someone suggested it's catering to Legends fans, but I'm also used to SW being descended from hokey Flash Gordon stuff, and there's only a small group of people I would trust with the ST characters right now. So anything that keeps LF from them for the time being is good. Hopefully the fans get something better than Legends, as at least some of the writers involved are higher quality than that, including Soule and Claudia Gray.
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Post by Lily Snape on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 10:09 pm

@Sacrebleu wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:Also, in terms of what does well in SW and what they'll focus on going forward.

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On the same note, I looked on the Disney store site to compare, and there's almost as many products available for Mando as TROS, and far more for TLJ. Saw someone comment a couple weeks ago say they worked at Disney store and that the spoiler filled TROS merch they expected never came.
@californiagirl

I have a smallish collection of Pops.  I wanted to get Rey with her new yellow-bladed lightsaber and ideally Ben Solo with either Anakin's lightsaber or a blaster.  Nope.  The only TROS Rey available is with the blue lightsaber or Dark Rey with the red lightsaber.  The only TROS Kylo is in the new helmet.  Meanwhile, there are NINE different variations of the Mando character alone, Covert Mando, Heavy Infantry Mando, Death Watch Mando, Gauntlet Mando, etc.  How can you have the very last scene of a 9 film saga be the new Jedi revealing her new lightsaber and not have merchandise for it?
@Sacrebleu

Because the film failed to generate much enthusiasm, I’m guessing.  Mando has serious buzz.  The last film in a 9-film series kind of ended with a whimper instead of with a bang.  They really blew it, didn’t they?

@californiagirl — Given the title and the setting, how much do you want to bet Yoda will be there to tie this to the Saga?  I mean, he was only like 500 years old at that time.  He would have been in the prime of life.

@AhsokaTano — My literature professor once did a thing in class which was fascinating and eye opening: he asked us to forget plot and protagonist and so forth and just tell him whose story The Scarlet Letter was, Hester Prynne or Arthur Dimmesdale. The women all raised their hands for Hester; the men all raised their hands for Dimmesdale. And then our professor told us that every class he’d tried this with had the same outcome. The plot was driven by Dimmesdale, and men stereotypically are more interested in plot-driven stories. But the feel, the mood of the story— that was Hester. Our prof thought Hawthorne was writing that way to appeal to both male and female readers (of the 1840s, obviously— but apparently the 1990s as well) with what most deeply appealed to them. You probably couldn’t split people into two genders in a college class now and do this kind of experiment, as gender has obviously since been recognized as more complex than that, but it was fascinating how clear-cut the whole thing was. I should add: we had our eyes closed until we looked at the end. No one was trying to fit in with all the other girls or guys. Anyway, your comment about men and women generally responding differently to Ben’s fate reminded me of that.


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Post by californiagirl on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 10:38 pm

7PM on a Monday seems like kind of a weird time to have a press event to kickstart a new franchise, but oh well. What they claim at least, is that KK told them to be bold. Claims they want new fans too, will span all different types of stories across different formats and age groups. Knights of the round table thing, 200 years before the main saga, based around what scares the Jedi. They are not wearing the brown monk robes the PT Jedi did. No one is saying it, but I suspect this whole endeavor might be What the Jedi Were Like Before They Sucked, and How They Came to Suck by the Prequel Era.

@Lily Snape I could see Yoda or Maz showing up, but otherwise there's not much potential for known characters to show up.

Each author presented what their first work is, there will be multiple waves, we'll learn more before it officially starts on August 25 (which just so happens to be right before Celebration).

https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-high-republic

My feed is a mixture of "so excited, squee!!!" and "no more SW, i am dead inside."
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 10:44 pm

No connection to future movies or series

"This period on the Star Wars timeline will not overlap any of the filmed features or series currently planned for production, giving creators and partners a vast amount of room to tell Star Wars stories with new adventures and original characters."

“We are so excited to be opening up such a rich, fertile era for our authors to explore,” says Lucasfilm president Kathleen Kennedy. “We’ll get to see the Jedi in their prime.”

KK seems excited about this, so I don't think she's on the same page as Reylos and Bendemptionists. In that sense, she is not an ally.

https://www.starwars.com/news/star-wars-the-high-republic
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Post by OrionStars on Mon 24 Feb 2020, 11:23 pm

I'm not excited for the new project and the new Jedi but on the same page, the ST trio is nevah to be seen again in the near future and the mouse is trying hard to ignore the trio with a bunch of new protagonists so... Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 4 Giphy
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 12:27 am

I'm not the only one to notice that there was way more planning and though put into the storytelling than TROS. And the story seemed to come from the authors themselves rather than a long list of studio notes and checklists from the executives upon high. I get why people are mistrusting and jaded. LF and Disney have to put out a new line of stuff for the content machine now that the ST is over. Legends, even if it was bad, kept SW afloat for decades, they know there's money there.

But this was announced so long ago, and has been in the pipeline for years, I don't think it's original intention was to distract from TROS, a movie that wasn't even filmed yet. But LF really did wring the saga era, from slightly before TPM to the ST, especially through the OT era, pretty dry (RO, Solo, Battlefront, Fallen Order, Rebels, so many books and comics). They really did need to expand their horizons. But the fact that TROS was indeed bad, and didn't do as well as they wanted, does make it awfully convenient that there's this new big thing to quickly pivot to instead. The fact it starts just a couple weeks after the Poe the drug smuggler book is kind of funny.

The ST bunch will reappear again at some point. The prequels were also derided by many, yet there was plenty published about them for interested fans, both Legends and newer canon. It just needs a rest after the few things they already had slated for this year. No one is emotionally prepared for that yet, and it would need more convoluted planning than the Luminous/Republic thing to undo the damage and make it work.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 1:54 am

@Lily Snape wrote:My literature professor once did a thing in class which was fascinating and eye opening:  he asked us to forget plot and protagonist and so forth and just tell him whose story The Scarlet Letter was, Hester Prynne or Arthur Dimmesdale.  The women all raised their hands for Hester; the men all raised their hands for Dimmesdale.  And then our professor told us that every class he’d tried this with had the same outcome.  The plot was driven by Dimmesdale, and men stereotypically are more interested in plot-driven stories.  But the feel, the mood of the story— that was Hester.  Our prof thought Hawthorne was writing that way to appeal to both male and female readers (of the 1840s, obviously— but apparently the 1990s as well) with what most deeply appealed to them.  You probably couldn’t split people into two genders in a college class now and do this kind of experiment, as gender has obviously since been recognized as more complex than that, but it was fascinating how clear-cut the whole thing was.  I should add: we had our eyes closed until we looked at the end.  No one was trying to fit in with all the other girls or guys.  Anyway, your comment about men and women generally responding differently to Ben’s fate reminded me of that.

@Lily Snape

I think that's one of the most frustrating parts overall - who had the plot and who was the protagonist. Because it feels like the films up until TRoS were doing things like examining the myth from the perspective of outsiders. Like the crew in Rogue One, Rey's introduction as an in-universe fangirl, Ben's ambivalence/rejection of the Jedi myth for his family versus embracing the DS ones, Han's "it's true, all of it" admission, et cetera. Like they were unpacking the mythology which grew up around the original movies and within that world itself via Rey's progression through the story. And then it just went to pieces with suddenly forcing her back in to the story and whisking Ben off stage so she can be his widow? replacement? the new Skywalker.
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Post by DeeBee on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 2:53 am

@californiagirl wrote:High Republic for Luminous confirmed. Not surprised. At least they're going very far away from the saga, which they botched, but they still have a brand to carry on, might as well go somewhere new with new characters. No idea if this will eventually carry into movies or whatnot. I feel like they aren't doing Old Republic because they really do want that to be a movie series someday.

Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 4 Erlqtd10
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WTH
I.feel.nothing.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 4:47 am

The blonde Jedi above is the same one in the kylo Ren
Comics (Ben opens a holocron with her on it). Charles soule has confirmed it . Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 4 F694ce10Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 4 38c1b010
Exploring TROS & The Future of Star Wars... - Page 4 2ed21d10
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Post by vaderito on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 5:02 am

Sorry to be a party pooper but I don't care for this. At all. Reddit is full of images from the conference and I'm like "this looks as cheap as 50s pulp fiction book covers that you can google anywhere". Not my thing.
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 10:36 am

I feel this is kind of what happened with Mandalorian, where they marketed it to appeal to a traditional fanboy type, but it actually ended up being a more child-friendly, myth-based show about a baby Yoda. This looks like they're trying to get people to stay with the "look at the uber-awesome Jedi at the height of their powers" approach, but the unspoken part is that this is a vehicle to show how they became so inept and dogmatic and weirdly puritanical by the prequels. But if you told people that at the get go, it would turn them off.

I also say this in part because I know several of the involved writers have already written force users as more than black and white, I just can't see them doing a whole series based on no internal conflict or flaws.

But really though, LOL to the amount of planning this had which TROS didn't get.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 11:39 am

LOL indeed. they thought SW movies would be popular even if they filmed someone read a phonebook for 2 hours. and then shockingly were wrong.
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Post by snufkin on Tue 25 Feb 2020, 1:07 pm

I should have bookmarked it, but there's something Rian Johnson said on Twitter in response to one of the fanboys yelling #notmyLuke at him about how the question becomes, do you stay faithful to the past at the expense of anything else or do you try to move forward while grappling with the question. Because it feels like that was a question taken seriously in the output from 2013-2018, ending with Solo and then punted with TRoS, starting with JJ's "you can't say this doesn't mean anything." statement. And this feels so much like the type of output they were doing back during the periods between trilogies, when they only had a small, devoted audience sticking around.
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