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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by reylo1992 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 4:49 am

As much as I have come to appreciate TLJ more and more, I can't help but thinking that Rian and J.J. competed in who would make fun of the fandom's expectations better, the first by giving the contrary of what the (hardcore) fandom expected and the second by giving them exactly what they expected.  Aside from the reason I already mentioned above, I remember that I couldn't enjoy TLJ because I got the inconfortable impression during the first viewing that Rian was trying hard to mock any speculations/expectations/preconceived ideas rather than telling the story. Although I was definitely not part of the fans who had any big expectations about the OT character, I felt like the SW crew made fun of the fanboys but also the fandom as a whole. You expect Luke to be who he was? I give you a old depressed hermit throwing a lightsaber like garbage.  You expect the old Jedi text to be of importance? Let's have Yoda joyfully burn them like he is mocking Luke for giving them importance. You expect a big father-daughter relationship? I give you Luke rejecting Rey and Rey beating Luke. You expect a big revelation about Rey ? I give you  Rey Nobody. You expect something big about Snoke? Screw! I'll simply get rid of him. You expect Reylo to happen? Ok, I'll give you good fanfic moments to annoy antis but hey don't expect real romance to flourish.  You expect a big Luke vs. Kylo confrontation? Well, I'll give you a big angry fanboy scene where he let himself stupidly fool.
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Post by Saracene on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 5:10 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:A lot of people seem to forget that the OT 'trio' - or group, when counting Chewie and the droids - were split up throughout most of ESB, with Luke and Artoo going to Dagobah and the others fleeing the Empire.
And it's widely regarded as the best of the OT.
@motherofpearl1

There’s a few big differences though between ESB splitting up characters and TLJ. ESB split up the characters, but only after the first film established a rock-solid dynamic between the trio, which TFA on the other hand didn’t do. Also, ESB separated Luke from the rest but kept Han and Leia together; if it followed the TLJ example Han would be off on a mission with a brand new character while Leia remained behind to argue with Mon Mothma or something. Also, while the characters were apart in ESB the movie still maintained a strong sense of connection between them, like with Luke dashing off to rescue his friends specifically (whereas Rey’s concern in TLJ is about saving the Resistance rather than any individuals).

I’ll give Rian credit for trying to find more substance in the heroes (even if I don’t think he really succeeded). But his complete disinterest in the dynamics established in TFA outside of Rey and Kylo didn’t really serve the trilogy well IMO.
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Post by Annwyn on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 7:35 am

Ok guys, so long...

It's been an honor to be part of this community, to be a Reylo, even though I was just a lurker. Thank you all for the beautiful metas. Thanks to the awesome artists we have also, we are lucky to have great artists in our fandom.

I'm still digusted by TROS. "fairytale", "what happens to Kylo is fun", blabla, I'm not gonna rant too long but TROS ruined the whole Skywalker saga for me. I just don't even want to watch the original trilogy again, thanks to TROS. Because in the end, Leia and Han had a sith ending. TROS ruined everything for me.

I loved TLJ, I know some of you didn't like it, but what I loved about TLJ is its message "everyone can be a hero' and "even heroes have failures". Thank you Rian. To be honnest, TLJ is my favorite SW movies because of its messages and because of its so beautiful cinematography. The throne room scene, a lot of TLJ is a masterpiece visually.

You guys are wonderful. I love this forum and I love you all to pieces, you are all extraordinnary, smart, opened minded, the exact contrary to the antis actually.

I love you guys. Thank you for the past years. As Keanu said :"You are breathtaking!".

Proud to be a Reylo!

EDIT : I forgot to say, I hate, hate the whole sequel now because they had just a beautiful "material" with Ben/Kylo : someone abused and went through dark times but someone who can "come back" and being forgiven. They had such a treasure. Especially with Adam in the role. They failed lamely. I loved Fringe, the TV series, made by JJ Binks. I can't believe JJ did that to Star Wars.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 7:44 am

@Annwyn wrote:Ok guys, so long...

It's been an honor to be part of this community, to be a Reylo, even though I was just a lurker. Thank you all for the beautiful metas. Thanks to the awesome artists we have also, we are lucky to have great artists in our fandom.

I'm still digusted by TROS. "fairytale", "what happens to Kylo is fun", blabla, I'm not gonna rant too long but TROS ruined the whole Skywalker saga for me. I just don't even want to watch the original trilogy again, thanks to TROS. Because in the end, Leia and Han had a sith ending. TROS ruined everything for me.

I loved TLJ, I know some of you didn't like it, but what I loved about TLJ is its message "everyone can be a hero' and "even heroes have failures". Thank you Rian. To be honnest, TLJ is my favorite SW movies because of its messages and because of its so beautiful cinematography. The throne room scene, a lot of TLJ is a masterpiece visually.

You guys are wonderful. I love this forum and I love you all to pieces, you are all extraordinnary, smart, opened minded, the exact contrary to the antis actually.

I love you guys. Thank you for the past years. As Keanu said :"You are breathtaking!".

Proud to be a Reylo!

All the best Annwyn, your feelings match mine exactly. I'm staying, at least for the immediate future, despite being on the same wavelength as you. I doubt if I'll ever forgive DLF for what they have done however, as like you the entire SW franchise is forever tainted by this dog's dinner they're trying to pass off as a 'hopeful' ending to it.
I also say best wishes to reyloeyesofmist, and kasiopeia on Tumblr, who have ceased posting their beautiful art and witty comments because TROS broke their hearts so much they've lost interest in Reylo altogether.
It's a sad thing when a soulless corporation can sacrifice something that meant so much purely to satisfy a few nasty people, and to promote theme parks.
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Post by Annwyn on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 2:05 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
@Annwyn wrote:Ok guys, so long...

It's been an honor to be part of this community, to be a Reylo, even though I was just a lurker. Thank you all for the beautiful metas. Thanks to the awesome artists we have also, we are lucky to have great artists in our fandom.

I'm still digusted by TROS. "fairytale", "what happens to Kylo is fun", blabla, I'm not gonna rant too long but TROS ruined the whole Skywalker saga for me. I just don't even want to watch the original trilogy again, thanks to TROS. Because in the end, Leia and Han had a sith ending. TROS ruined everything for me.

I loved TLJ, I know some of you didn't like it, but what I loved about TLJ is its message "everyone can be a hero' and "even heroes have failures". Thank you Rian. To be honnest, TLJ is my favorite SW movies because of its messages and because of its so beautiful cinematography. The throne room scene, a lot of TLJ is a masterpiece visually.

You guys are wonderful. I love this forum and I love you all to pieces, you are all extraordinnary, smart, opened minded, the exact contrary to the antis actually.

I love you guys. Thank you for the past years. As Keanu said :"You are breathtaking!".

Proud to be a Reylo!

All the best Annwyn, your feelings match mine exactly. I'm staying, at least for the immediate future, despite being on the same wavelength as you. I doubt if I'll ever forgive DLF for what they have done however, as like you the entire SW franchise is forever tainted by this dog's dinner they're trying to pass off as a 'hopeful' ending to it.
I also say best wishes to reyloeyesofmist, and kasiopeia on Tumblr, who have ceased posting their beautiful art and witty comments because TROS broke their hearts so much they've lost interest in Reylo altogether.
It's a sad thing when a soulless corporation can sacrifice something that meant so much purely to satisfy a few nasty people, and to promote theme parks.
@motherofpearl1

I love Kasiopea's art so much but I understand. It did break my heart too, that movie. But let's take confort in all the amazing talents, artwise and fanfic wise, we have in this fandom. I guess all the sensitive, nice people love Reylo! :p
We do have so many great artists, a few of them healed my heart with their comics. I'll always love Reylo, it could have been such a beautiful love story, but let's be honnest, it's mostly thanks to Adam's great acting skills and I'll always, always be proud of the Reylo community : spit on, harrassed but always positive, always intelligent, and let's be honnest : almost always right =)

As a parisian : Fluctuat nec mergitur <3


I'll be lurking.... Love you guys.
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Post by californiagirl on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 2:57 pm

@reylo1992 I actually thought many of the events in TLJ could be predicted from TFA, though it was admittedly a little in-your-face about it. Rian plays with genre in all his movies, not so much as a spiteful "I'm more clever than you" mentality as just trying to push SW a little further. He's such a huge SW geek himself. I never thought of TLJ to be as overly-subversive as either many of its fans or detractors said.

And JJ certainly was not trying to make fun of people, as more than one person has said, he and especially Terrio ARE the very fans they're trying to please, at least some of TROS is what they personally wanted to see. It's just that what they want to see, at the lack of quality and cohesion or sense we got, is itself laughable.

Saw more of the supposed Trevorrow script. The ReyPoe in it you guys. Also this.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Eqr8o210
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Post by vaderito on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 3:39 pm

Reypoe is hilarious.  lol!  lol!  lol!

Poe: You shouldn’t have come here!

Rey: Would you rather have been killed?

Poe: If it means you’re safe, yeah!

There’s something behind those words.

lol!  lol!  lol!  lol!

more comedy in tags (too long):

Spoiler:


Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 D64aa3dcc6a51f63e1d408fae5a5c27e137cc0a4
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 53b550504cee8f9474f6880f22c1be92500d7575

also, they give Poe some unintentionally suggestive lines:

Poe: Okay let’s blow this thing and go home.
affraid lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!
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Post by BB-Rey on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 3:56 pm

I really thought we were going to see Rey and Ben team up in the end as I remember both the Yin and Yang like mural on Atch-To and Luke's words to Ben that he will not be the last Jedi. I thought they were going to reform a new Jedi Order together that broke free of the restrictions and rules of the Order before them and that embraced both the Light and Dark so they didn't fall into the traps and pitfalls of the generations before them.

I equally think they could've explored Rey coming to terms with being a Nobody as TLJ junior novel did foreshadow there being a bit more to the story. I think seeing her understand where she comes from doesn't define her and that she too has all that she needs in herself would be good. She just needed closure. I would even say that her being placed on Jakku to protect her could work in context to TLJ but don't force anything more on it as she deserves to have her own merits and choices. That's where TROS failed her and just as much real world women with connecting her to a toxic male.

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Post by Annwyn on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 4:49 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@reylo1992 I actually thought many of the events in TLJ could be predicted from TFA, though it was admittedly a little in-your-face about it. Rian plays with genre in all his movies, not so much as a spiteful "I'm more clever than you" mentality as just trying to push SW a little further. He's such a huge SW geek himself. I never thought of TLJ to be as overly-subversive as either many of its fans or detractors said.

And JJ certainly was not trying to make fun of people, as more than one person has said, he and especially Terrio ARE the very fans they're trying to please, at least some of TROS is what they personally wanted to see. It's just that what they want to see, at the lack of quality and cohesion or sense we got, is itself laughable.

Excuse me when I puke seeing this script ^-~

Saw more of the supposed Trevorrow script. The ReyPoe in it you guys. Also this.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Eqr8o210
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Post by Annwyn on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 4:58 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@reylo1992 I actually thought many of the events in TLJ could be predicted from TFA, though it was admittedly a little in-your-face about it. Rian plays with genre in all his movies, not so much as a spiteful "I'm more clever than you" mentality as just trying to push SW a little further. He's such a huge SW geek himself. I never thought of TLJ to be as overly-subversive as either many of its fans or detractors said.

And JJ certainly was not trying to make fun of people, as more than one person has said, he and especially Terrio ARE the very fans they're trying to please, at least some of TROS is what they personally wanted to see. It's just that what they want to see, at the lack of quality and cohesion or sense we got, is itself laughable.

To be very honnest, all feelings aside, i really love TLJ because of its visuals. I honnestly think Rian did a great job. The messages, and the visuals. Well, all is done and said but really, I love TLJ because of its messages and its visual. Lucas said SW is a fairytale. They killed my fairytale, I can't watch the OT now,because I know it ends in tragedy for Leia, for Luke. I hated Ben's death, but what I am the most mad about is TROS just killed any Happy Ever After for Leia and Han. TROS killed the whole saga for me. I'm so sad about it. I used to say to my little cousins "SW, you'll see it's a fairytale in space!" and they adored it. Now...I guess it's a tragedy. The world is enough tragedic nowadays, I would like a bit of confort, a bit of Happy Ever After, a bit of hope and love. I guess Hope and Love are out of fashion movie wise...

Well, at least the Reylos are here <3

Saw more of the supposed Trevorrow script. The ReyPoe in it you guys. Also this.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Eqr8o210
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Post by special_cases on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 6:43 pm

Ohhhhhhhhhhh Vader was Skywalker enough for Lukky boy but Kylo is not.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Tenor
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 6:50 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@reylo1992 I actually thought many of the events in TLJ could be predicted from TFA, though it was admittedly a little in-your-face about it. Rian plays with genre in all his movies, not so much as a spiteful "I'm more clever than you" mentality as just trying to push SW a little further. He's such a huge SW geek himself. I never thought of TLJ to be as overly-subversive as either many of its fans or detractors said.

And JJ certainly was not trying to make fun of people, as more than one person has said, he and especially Terrio ARE the very fans they're trying to please, at least some of TROS is what they personally wanted to see. It's just that what they want to see, at the lack of quality and cohesion or sense we got, is itself laughable.

Saw more of the supposed Trevorrow script. The ReyPoe in it you guys. Also this.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Eqr8o210
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Kylo: You are no Luke, Jake.

Laughing
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Post by reylo1992 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 8:32 pm

@special_cases wrote:Ohhhhhhhhhhh Vader was Skywalker enough for Lukky boy but Kylo is not.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Tenor
@special_cases

Ikr  Rolling Eyes That sumps up everything I would have despised in Duel of the Fates and that I despise in TROS even if it's more subtle. The idea that the Skywalker legacy is all about the light side as if begun with Luke - not with Anakin - and that the Skywalkers who have "sinned" don't deserve to be part of the  family pic because SW is  not AT ALL about healing family wounds. Yet fanboys would have been so ok with Trevorrow's version of Luke compared with what they got in Rian's TLJ lol
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Post by Moonjump05 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 10:22 pm

Lol @Luke saying Kylo is no Skywalker as if Anakin wasn't the most edgelord tryhard and he himself wasn't a drama queen. All three are Skywalker men who share a single brain cell and think they are the center of their own universe.

The ReyPoe is so bad. Like really bad. Like every single terrible "action romance" ever. So glad it was dead on arrival.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 10:33 pm

Uh that's the entire f**king point of the ST, that Ben has "too much of his father's heart in him" and that's why he's miserable being a villain and destined (like Han) to get over his selfishness/self-loathing to do the right thing. But whatever. If LFL leaked this script as some type of face saving, "quit complaining, it could've been worse" instead it feels like the entire project was doomed from the start. Or at least if Carrie hadn't passed away, it's possible that their story/script would've at least gone through her editing process.

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Post by unicorn on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 2:56 am

@special_cases wrote:Ohhhhhhhhhhh Vader was Skywalker enough for Lukky boy but Kylo is not.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 5 Tenor
@special_cases

And above all, Luuuk set Ben´s downfall in motion with his mistake. What a hypocrite.  

This Damerey thing looks like fun, like "it´s so bad", it´s funny. I would like to have this script as a novel. Laughing Mel Brooks could make a good parody with this script.

TROS is far too lame for a good parody, this movie is really useless.
When outdated dudebros make a movie for outdated dudebros out of their own stupid 8 years old selves´ pew pew pew and Luke&Leia phantasies... Rolling Eyes
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Post by vaderito on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 7:17 am

@Geralt_Riv wrote:

Kylo: You are no Luke, Jake.

Laughing
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Post by Sacrebleu on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 8:26 am

From the first time I saw TROS, I felt appreciative that at least I got Reylo because I realized all along, even without knowing the contents of Trevorrow's script, that it could have been much, much worse. Rian left it so that the door could be closed on Reylo in IX if the next filmmaker didn't want to go there. The Force bond could have been dropped with Rey shutting the Falcon door. I personally would have detested a Rey/Poe romance. I would have preferred Ben to live, certainly, but there is no question in my mind that Rey and Ben love each other and that it was depicted on screen.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 8:46 am

Really glad they didn’t go with the Treverrow script in the end . It reminds me of some of the early scripts for A New Hope which were really bad and it looks like he was going to kill off kylo anyway too .
I found this tweet thread on twitter thought you might be interested in reading . It’s too long to post the whole thread here in screenshots so here is the link :

https://twitter.com/bensoloalive/status/1226225000690180096?s=12

Makes you see TLJ and TROS in a different way and it blew my mind to be honest because it made me see events of TLJ in a different way - the force dyad thing and how complicated it is because it transcends time and space . “ stand together die together “ palps says so that’s kind of why I believe and this tweeter too that Ben must be alive somehow somewhere . Am holding on to this now even if it’s delusional. Lol. I’ve pointed out some this stuff here before but it didn’t occur to me that the force bond stuff in TLJ May be happening from different points in rey and Kylo’s time line .
“When the force itself sickens past and future must split and combine “ - prophecy from master and apprentice by Claudia Gray could be more relevant then we think .
We were told when rey and kylo touched hands that this was the vision - one of them
Saw the past and the other the future - but what if it was the same vision just for one of them it was their past and for the other their future ?
Anyway have a read above . Am staying here unless this forum shuts down . Am holding out a lone candle for Ben hoping he’s not gone and that tweet thread above has ignited some hope .
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Post by vaderito on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 10:33 am

Rey and Poe doesn't work because of many factors but one of more important is age difference. In romance, age difference has a special meaning as it's always about inexperienced girl and experienced man. That's the appeal. Jane and Rochester. Rhett and Scarlett. Christine and Erik. She's raised to be a prude and then this rake comes into her life and that challenges her.

However, because SW wants to be PC and metoo-friendly, Uncle Poe is portrayed as a smitten teenager who is floored when a Jedi kisses him. you'll also notice that, like in ST movies, it's always the girl who initiates the kiss to keep it on the safe side (though considering accusations that Rose sexually abused Finn when she kissed him without consent, nothing is safe if it could be spun to serve agendas). So Rey kisses Uncle Poe twice which doesn't work. It's played like a revelation to him (lol) whereas in stories that understand the symbolism of age, it's always a revelation to the inexperienced character. Inexperienced Uncle Poe? I don't think so.

In ST, Kylo looks and acts younger than his age and Adam said that Kylo is younger than him but cannot say exact age. So my guess is that he's told that the character is younger than VD age (29) so he and rey definitely don't fall in the "older man, younger woman" category cause they don't look noticeably age apart unlike Rey and Poe. Unless CT really thought that Poe could pass for 20s in which case lol.
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Post by Mila95 on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 12:04 pm

I honestly think the Poe/Rey thing was a big factor in CT getting fired along with his refusal to let go of Kylo as the main villain.I think that second version was some attempt at compromise because he kinda let's him be redeemed in a way like a minute before he died and kinda hints that he loved Rey but it's the literal bare minimum. I know they said some stuff about the problem being he couldn't get it to work without Leia but did she even have a huge role in the original script that just couldn't be replaced or done like in TROS?

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Post by special_cases on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 12:23 pm

Could someone who read that script tell me why Mark was thinking that he and CT were on the same board regarding Luke and possibly Leia? From what I heard, there is only one thing really different from TROS - Luke is involved in fight with Kylo. Considering that Luke even goes that far - saying that Kylo is not worthy being Skywalker with obvious sentiment that stranger girl, whom Luke didn't try to kill in her sleep, is real Skywalker in this soulful family story.

Just before TROS principal photography started, Mark shaded JJ on Twitter. A lot people were arguing that it was a joke, but I'm still 100% sure it was unapologetic shade, he clearly implied that he doesn['t care about what JJ wrote or will film and rewrite. While Mark was very unprofessional and short sighted during TLJ promo, he never made any double meaning jokes about RJ personally. (Additionally I found funny that JB said that he was inspired by Mark to voice his... eh.... complaints or dissatisfactions, but Mark's behaviour was truly undoubtedly unprofessional and disrespectful, and even with that Mark actually explained what he finds conflicted in the storyline connected to his character. While JB... you know... followed Mark's great example to give us his progressive opinion about the romance that has nothing to do with his character)
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 2:02 pm

Mark was critical of all the ST movies, or at least his role in them. He honestly didn't seem to get that Luke is not the main character, the focal point of the story, or infallibly heroic and perfect. Given that he wanted Luke to fight Kylo in TFA, he probably liked that part of CT's script.

Remembering that quote from JJ so long ago how he told Grunberg the TLJ script was so good he wanted to direct it. Rian claimed JJ was very supportive of his vision, nothing seemed combative or negative until a couple weeks before release. So, so many things no longer make any sense at all now.
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Post by special_cases on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 2:34 pm

@californiagirl JJ clarified that he have never said that he wanted to direct that script. Considering that he decided to articulate this clarification... I think he was indeed impressed by the script - which he publicly stated himself - but I doubt he loved it on personal level. Which is fine. You don't need to love someone's story to stop yourself from pissing over it in a petty way while still being unable to come with your own story.

JJ's PR talk is legendary, he will tell anything that is good for profits and his own image when it's suitable - and change it again when it's suitable. Of cource, he was supportive of RJ personally, why wouldn't he? JJ and RJ hold absolutely different values in filmmaking and have conflicted philosophies in approach to art, and they are too aware of this to bring it to the direct inside conflict of creative decisions.

JJ slipped only once - when he said that "people" don't watch Star Wars for meta - ... and then he showed us the last chapter of Saga full of meta based on comments from internet crowds. Maybe JJ finally discovered that sometimes meta is unavoidable in 2019 or maybe he humbly thinks that the meta in his trailers-films is mesa of classic narrative. I mean, "You are a Palpatine" and "Somehow Palpatine returned" is obviously quintessence of sincere storytelling.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 09 Feb 2020, 3:16 pm

@special_cases I don't remember him clarifying that, but then again, the original statement was secondhand from his friend Greg, and not sure how much I trust his judgement sometimes.

In other news, Rian is wearing a porg pin, I think to the Oscars?

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