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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 4:48 pm

@Acritiqua wrote:Oh yes, I agree it's romantic. I simply don't like the gratitude angle and I could even see that angle in the movie. Personally, I think the problem started in TLJ. Rey's feelings and perceptions aren't clear enough in that movie. Then come TROS, it almost felt to me that they were afraid to delve deeper into Rey such that her perceptions and feelings are even more mysterious. The book seems to be going with this as well. It feels like they don't know who Rey is or how she feels and are too afraid to go there. Everything from the book, to Abrams saying it could be romantic or it could be like they are siblings, to the movie itself, live in Rey Limbo. (Limbo would be a perfect last name for the character.)
@Acritiqua

Yeah I agree with the bolded. Romantic Reylo in TLJ was too buried in subtext while the movie made it possible to interpret Rey's actions and feelings however way the viewers liked. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they played it vague for the benefit of the story and to keep people intrigued, but now it's clear that it was always because of ideological reasons.

Also, I've always been convinced that Adam's divisive looks made it harder for a lot of people to see Reylo in the romantic light. Playing a love interest on a show like Girls is a different universe to a mainstream Hollywood blockbuster.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:04 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:

It's on their official twitter. I don't have the link at hand, but they taught people to say "gratitude" in Na'vi lmfao.

and @Atenais

lol! lol! lol! lol! lol! lol!

Next level trolling!
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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:17 pm

LMAO @ Matt "can't" confirm the most obvious thing in the story, when previous director described the dynamic with words like "sex scene". Will be LF hiding in the jungle of sophistry (like "wonder of wonders" and "kisses of acknowledgment"lol! lol! lol! ) next decade, and running away from any straightforward confirmation on what their story was actually about...? LOL.

I understand that the SW fandom itself is quite pathetic crowd for many reasons, but is LF really unable to understand that they're making it worse for themselves, not better.
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Post by OrionStars on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:43 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Acritiqua wrote:Oh yes, I agree it's romantic. I simply don't like the gratitude angle and I could even see that angle in the movie. Personally, I think the problem started in TLJ. Rey's feelings and perceptions aren't clear enough in that movie. Then come TROS, it almost felt to me that they were afraid to delve deeper into Rey such that her perceptions and feelings are even more mysterious. The book seems to be going with this as well. It feels like they don't know who Rey is or how she feels and are too afraid to go there. Everything from the book, to Abrams saying it could be romantic or it could be like they are siblings, to the movie itself, live in Rey Limbo. (Limbo would be a perfect last name for the character.)
@Acritiqua

Yeah I agree with the bolded. Romantic Reylo in TLJ was too buried in subtext while the movie made it possible to interpret Rey's actions and feelings however way the viewers liked. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they played it vague for the benefit of the story and to keep people intrigued, but now it's clear that it was always because of ideological reasons.

Also, I've always been convinced that Adam's divisive looks made it harder for a lot of people to see Reylo in the romantic light. Playing a love interest on a show like Girls is a different universe to a mainstream Hollywood blockbuster.
@Saracene

I think the bold part is just one of several reasons. I remember there was a fraction in Marvel fandom that criticized Captain America's decision at the end of Endgame film too and they didn't want him to follow the romantic route, they just wanted him to stay as a saint figure and forget the love of his life because love is weak, unnecessary yada yada. The difference is Marvel made a choice and they chose the fraction of the fans who wanted romance, they didn't chicken out like LFL and tried to have their cake and eat it too, and thankfully Marvel's choice rewarded them nearly $3 billion because moviegoers and GA didn't (and will never have) any problem with romance.
Besides, I agree with other users that being with Rey is like restraint that won't do Ben any favor and his character will suffer more if he has to deal with Rey's "wokeness", Rey was already doomed at the very beginning as a tool for the internet fake woke crowd but we denied to acknowledge that fact and we held out hope for so long that LFL wouldn't burn down their own franchise. I think Rey is better off with the beautiful friendship gang. Ben should be with another character who could love him unconditionally and help him explore his potential.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 5:58 pm

Seeing how no one in LF can actually stand by the story they worked on(to various extents) makes me admire Rian even more. He knew what he was going for and had no problems explaining it even while he was getting crazy amounts of hate.This chose your own story approach just doesn't work. Being half assed about everything just makes it a weak story.

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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:10 pm

Rian IMO played just as coy when it came to Reylo. Yes he joked about the “sex scene”, but thing is, when you joke about something you’re immediately giving people leeway not to take what you’ve said seriously. So Reylos can rejoice because they see it as confirmation while those opposed can go, duh he was only joking. He did refer to a “young woman’s romance” in an interview, but if I remember right that was like a year after the movie came out.

Oh and remember those eyeroll-worthy comments from someone from the TLJ production crew about how the reason Kylo was topless was to make sure the audience understood that Rey could really see him. Nothing sexual going on promise!


Last edited by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:15 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:11 pm

Matt really will get yelled at (possibly by LF itself in addition to online jerks) if he talks about Reylo. I don't even think he worked on TROS to begin with.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:25 pm

@OrionStars wrote:
@Saracene wrote:
@Acritiqua wrote:Oh yes, I agree it's romantic. I simply don't like the gratitude angle and I could even see that angle in the movie. Personally, I think the problem started in TLJ. Rey's feelings and perceptions aren't clear enough in that movie. Then come TROS, it almost felt to me that they were afraid to delve deeper into Rey such that her perceptions and feelings are even more mysterious. The book seems to be going with this as well. It feels like they don't know who Rey is or how she feels and are too afraid to go there. Everything from the book, to Abrams saying it could be romantic or it could be like they are siblings, to the movie itself, live in Rey Limbo. (Limbo would be a perfect last name for the character.)
@Acritiqua

Yeah I agree with the bolded. Romantic Reylo in TLJ was too buried in subtext while the movie made it possible to interpret Rey's actions and feelings however way the viewers liked. I was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that maybe they played it vague for the benefit of the story and to keep people intrigued, but now it's clear that it was always because of ideological reasons.

Also, I've always been convinced that Adam's divisive looks made it harder for a lot of people to see Reylo in the romantic light. Playing a love interest on a show like Girls is a different universe to a mainstream Hollywood blockbuster.
@Saracene

I think the bold part is just one of several reasons. I remember there was a fraction in Marvel fandom that criticized Captain America's decision at the end of Endgame film too and they didn't want him to follow the romantic route, they just wanted him to stay as a saint figure and forget the love of his life because love is weak, unnecessary yada yada. The difference is Marvel made a choice and they chose the fraction of the fans who wanted romance, they didn't chicken out like LFL and tried to have their cake and eat it too, and thankfully Marvel's choice rewarded them nearly $3 billion because moviegoers and GA didn't (and will never have) any problem with romance.
Besides, I agree with other users that being with Rey is like restraint that won't do Ben any favor and his character will suffer more if he has to deal with Rey's "wokeness", Rey was already doomed at the very beginning as a tool for the internet fake woke crowd but we denied to acknowledge that fact and we held out hope for so long that LFL wouldn't burn down their own franchise. I think Rey is better off with the beautiful friendship gang. Ben should be with another character who could love him unconditionally and help him explore his potential.
@OrionStars

I recently found out that an anti crowd, who still pretends that their opposition is about progressiveness and n o t about shipping wars, found a reason to call Steve+Peggy "problematic".

I'm Steve\Tony shipper myself and can't imagine more UNPROBLEMATIC pairing than Steve\Peggy. Seriously, it's like a puppy in a form of fictional couple.

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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:38 pm

@Saracene wrote:Rian IMO played just as coy when it came to Reylo. Yes he joked about the “sex scene”, but thing is, when you joke about something you’re immediately giving people leeway not to take what you’ve said seriously. So Reylos can rejoice because they see it as confirmation while those opposed can go, duh he was only joking. He did refer to a “young woman’s romance” in an interview, but if I remember right that was like a year after the movie came out.

Oh and remember those eyeroll-worthy comments from someone from the TLJ production crew about how the reason Kylo was topless was to make sure the audience understood that Rey could really see him. Nothing sexual going on promise!
@Saracene

I do think that Rian wasn't straightforward as he could, but he never played it "as coy" as JJ or current non-existent post-TROS promo. First of all, his movie was second one, not last, so we can understand why he wasn't shouting about romance from all roofs. Secondly, he never played with implications that "it's just friendly", "brother\sister" or other nonsense JJ and LF is always somehow putting around Reylo subject.

- He called it close to a sex scene twice actually
- He was openly liking tweets about romance as interpretation of TLJ's scenes
- He said that he can make a spinoff with Rey and Kylo making out
- He was constantly referencing to romantic movies as inspiration for Reylo scenes

It's obvious that he tried to balance it: implying what he put in the movie, but in the same time leaving it open for next movie to shift it. Because we now know that there was seriously Damerey in the works.
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Post by vaderito on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:50 pm

Steggy is "problematic" because by staying in the past Steve "undid" Peggy's husband who was Steve himself in all timelines. That's the twist. That's why we never saw him in movies. It was Steve all along. Antis are really grasping for straws here.
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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 6:52 pm

I’m not sure why it matters if TLJ was just a second movie though? If there was an intent to make Rey and Kylo’s dynamic romantic, then it’s romantic regardless of what was going to happen in the last movie. It could have been a romance that run its course and finished with Rey closing the door on Kylo, or the one that got rekindled. There was no need to be hush-hush about it in order to keep the options open.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:11 pm

I do think it matters that Rian wasn't making the next movie. It literally almost went in a Poe /Rey direction.As it was his other ideas got retconed. He confirmed attraction, talked about them as romantic, compared their scenes to iconic romance movie scenes. So imo he did as much as suited what he did in the movie. They literally kissed now and official novelization can't say the word love but uses "gratitude and acknowledgement of their connection", storygroup members can't comment on what the characters were meant to be feeling, JJ gets asked about them and says some nonsense about how they could have been siblings.

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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:27 pm

@Mila95 wrote:I do think it matters that  Rian wasn't making the next movie. It literally almost went in a Poe /Rey direction.As it was his other ideas got retconed. He confirmed attraction, talked about them as romantic, compared their scenes to iconic romance movie scenes. So imo he did as much as suited what he did in the movie. They literally kissed now and official novelization can't say the word love but uses "gratitude and acknowledgement of their connection", storygroup members can't comment on what the characters were meant to be feeling, JJ gets asked about them and says some nonsense about how they could have been siblings.
@Mila95

The only comparison to a classic romantic movie scene I remember is how Ben’s plea in the Throne Room was like the famous scene in Notting Hill. Which can be seen as confirmation of Kylo’s feelings but not necessarily Rey’s.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:38 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Mila95 wrote:I do think it matters that  Rian wasn't making the next movie. It literally almost went in a Poe /Rey direction.As it was his other ideas got retconed. He confirmed attraction, talked about them as romantic, compared their scenes to iconic romance movie scenes. So imo he did as much as suited what he did in the movie. They literally kissed now and official novelization can't say the word love but uses "gratitude and acknowledgement of their connection", storygroup members can't comment on what the characters were meant to be feeling, JJ gets asked about them and says some nonsense about how they could have been siblings.
@Mila95

The only comparison to a classic romantic movie scene I remember is how Ben’s plea in the Throne Room was like the famous scene in Notting Hill. Which can be seen as confirmation of Kylo’s feelings but not necessarily Rey’s.
@Saracene

He liked a bunch of tweets taking about mutual romance.A widely believed anti idea was that he wrote TLJ to pander to the reylo fans because he was so positive and enthusiastic about it in interviews. I agree it should have been even more explicit simply because this was their most important relationship and it's easier when those are clear, like we knew going into the 3rd movie of the OT exactly what Vader and Luke are which helped the stakes.But I think compared to now Rian was open enough about reylo considering he wasn't writing the ending and that this relationship could have been taken in a totally different direction and almost was.

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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:41 pm

@Saracene wrote:I’m not sure why it matters if TLJ was just a second movie though? If there was an intent to make Rey and Kylo’s dynamic romantic, then it’s romantic regardless of what was going to happen in the last movie. It could have been a romance that run its course and finished with Rey closing the door on Kylo, or the one that got rekindled. There was no need to be hush-hush about it in order to keep the options open.
@Saracene

It matters because we're talking about marketing, not the movie itself. And marketing of ST was build around secrecy. Considering RJ wasn't making the next - last - movie, any straightforward confirmation would have made it look for the fandom like Rey and Kylo as a future couple is a done deal. LF totally didn't want it, and it looks like LF was playing with the idea of Damerey, so Rian tried to balance it, being clear about all romantic references and implications that were behind his filmmaking process. Rian never implied anything different from romance, and that makes his game fair, as he wasn't playing around, he just couldn't go and make headline like "Rey and Kylo are crazy about each other".
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:44 pm

I suspect CT's Damerey obsession was one of the reasons he was offed (in addition to being difficult to work with, and having an even worse characterization of Kylo). None of the three ST movies as they stand today even imply that as a possible ship. They didn't even have a one sided interest like Finnrey. It was literally a rehash of his JW stuff.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:46 pm

@special_cases wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I’m not sure why it matters if TLJ was just a second movie though? If there was an intent to make Rey and Kylo’s dynamic romantic, then it’s romantic regardless of what was going to happen in the last movie. It could have been a romance that run its course and finished with Rey closing the door on Kylo, or the one that got rekindled. There was no need to be hush-hush about it in order to keep the options open.
@Saracene

It matters because we're talking about marketing, not the movie itself. And marketing of ST was build around secrecy. Considering RJ wasn't making the next - last - movie, any straightforward confirmation would have made it look for the fandom like Rey and Kylo as a future couple is a done deal. LF totally didn't want it, and it looks like LF was playing with the idea of Damerey, so Rian tried to balance it, being clear about all romantic references and implications that were behind his filmmaking process. Rian never implied anything different from romance, and that makes his game fair, as he wasn't playing around, he just couldn't go and make headline like "Rey and Kylo are crazy about each other".
@special_cases

Yeah that's exactly what I mean to say. It was appropriate for what he did in the movie. I remember some interview where he said something like he wanted a kiss between two characters but it didn't fit and I think it became pretty clear he was talking about reylo and it being too soon in their relationship for that. He took it as far as a second movie in an enemies to lovers dynamic could have and didn't go like maybe they're just friends, maybe they're related or maybe it's a romance, who knows. Basically the entire reason why the kiss in TROS made any sense is their scenes in TLJ since JJ just went back to the TFA dynamic until the very end.

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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 7:49 pm

@special_cases wrote:
@Saracene wrote:I’m not sure why it matters if TLJ was just a second movie though? If there was an intent to make Rey and Kylo’s dynamic romantic, then it’s romantic regardless of what was going to happen in the last movie. It could have been a romance that run its course and finished with Rey closing the door on Kylo, or the one that got rekindled. There was no need to be hush-hush about it in order to keep the options open.
@Saracene

It matters because we're talking about marketing, not the movie itself. And marketing of ST was build around secrecy. Considering RJ wasn't making the next - last - movie, any straightforward confirmation would have made it look for the fandom like Rey and Kylo as a future couple is a done deal. LF totally didn't want it, and it looks like LF was playing with the idea of Damerey, so Rian tried to balance it, being clear about all romantic references and implications that were behind his filmmaking process. Rian never implied anything different from romance, and that makes his game fair, as he wasn't playing around, he just couldn't go and make headline like "Rey and Kylo are crazy about each other".
@special_cases

Fair points re: marketing.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:11 pm

Yeah, Rian would often say in interviews how he couldn’t say this or that because it would be stepping on JJ’s toes, and how he didn’t know how it’s going to end, he would just be an audience member like the rest of us for IX. And given CT’s Damerey obsession, and the fact that TLJ was the middle chapter, he was right to remain somewhat vague.

Adding on to the Rian Reylo receipts, there was also that interview regarding John Williams scoring the handtouch, and how he made him change the music because he wanted the audience to believe in a romance (explicitly used that word). Oh, and even as recently as the press tour for Knives Out he was talking about Reylo. The interviewer was talking about sex scenes in Rian’s movies and he interjected to include Rey and Kylo’s handtouch lmao. He’s always been a big proponent of it and I guarantee you if he had made it canon in his version of IX, he absolutely wouldn’t be playing coy like JJ has. I mean, RJ’s movie wouldn’t have had the problem of trying to appeal to all sides of the fanbase either.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:18 pm

@Saracene wrote:
@Mila95 wrote:I do think it matters that  Rian wasn't making the next movie. It literally almost went in a Poe /Rey direction.As it was his other ideas got retconed. He confirmed attraction, talked about them as romantic, compared their scenes to iconic romance movie scenes. So imo he did as much as suited what he did in the movie. They literally kissed now and official novelization can't say the word love but uses "gratitude and acknowledgement of their connection", storygroup members can't comment on what the characters were meant to be feeling, JJ gets asked about them and says some nonsense about how they could have been siblings.
@Mila95

The only comparison to a classic romantic movie scene I remember is how Ben’s plea in the Throne Room was like the famous scene in Notting Hill. Which can be seen as confirmation of Kylo’s feelings but not necessarily Rey’s.
@Saracene

He referenced to Letter Never Sent as for Achto scenes, and Rey and Kylo force bond cinematography and energy is obviously influenced by LNS. Leter Never Sent is centered around love story where there is storyline about two unsent love letters, and the difference between letters becomes a main thematic focus, there are a lot of heavy conversations that remind Rey/Kylo/Luke conversations.

Sabinin (Innokenti Smoktunovsky) is the author of an unsent letter, directed to his wife, Vera, in which he waxes philosophical and details events and emotions. The content of these letters is evoked heavily by superimposing images of home and an angelic Vera over Sabinin as he writes. Sergei (Yevgeni Urbansky) also writes an unsent letter in which he professes his love for Tanya, which is found by Andrei and creates cause for discussion about love, morality, and selfishness. Superimpositions this time show flames, which foreshadow future events and symbolizes the intensity of his feelings. It’s when the group is talking about actually finding diamonds that the film is least interesting; we quickly learn that Sergei is much more pessimistic than Tanya (Tatiana Samoilova) and her lover Andrei (Vasili Livanov), but the romantic conversations probe into more humanist issues.

LNS also has quite weird pacing, which reminded me some pacing issues Rian has even with Rey\Kylo scenes, especially when it cuts from Rey's cave and then to Kylo near fire. IMO wasn't great execution, but to be fair, it totally feels exactly like the dynamics presented in Letter Never Sent, and the way characters were given a lot of slow conversation scenes at first and then it shifted too abruptly. It feels like all slow scenes could have been used for better relationship development, even if the scenes are wonderful itself.

Edit; I know it's totally not classic romantic movie, just wanted to add information, so it's not argument against your point.
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Post by Saracene on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 8:41 pm

Yeah I remember the Letters Never Sent mention but IMO it’s a lot more oblique comparison than the Notting Hill one. From the way Rian talked about it, LNS was more like a broad influence on how he wanted the Anch-To scenes to feel rather than anything to do with romance specifically.

Personally I always felt that the last force bond scene on Anch-To needed to be much longer, especially when it represented such a crucial shift in Rey and Kylo’s relationship that the audience absolutely had to buy. Starting it midway with Rey and Kylo already deep into their conversation probably wasn’t ideal.
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Post by Piper Maru on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:00 pm

You think Clone!Palpatine is bad? Well, according to a Twitter gal who's posting leaks from the TROS novel, Rey's father is also a clone. Laughing

https://twitter.com/Riri19911/status/1235021411833368576
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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:05 pm

@Saracene wrote:Yeah I remember the Letters Never Sent mention but IMO it’s a lot more oblique comparison than the Notting Hill one. From the way Rian talked about it, LNS was more like a broad influence on how he wanted the Anch-To scenes to feel rather than anything to do with romance specifically.

Personally I always felt that the last force bond scene on Anch-To needed to be much longer, especially when it represented such a crucial shift in Rey and Kylo’s relationship that the audience absolutely had to buy. Starting it midway with Rey and Kylo already deep into their conversation probably wasn’t ideal.
@Saracene

I totally agree about the last force bond scene even if I think that it's a great scene. But it feels like something was profoundly missed and could have been easily added. Rian wrote too tight script for the weak editing they chose in the end. Additionally Canto Bight could have been saved with more strict editing.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:11 pm

@Piper Maru wrote:You think Clone!Palpatine is bad? Well, according to a Twitter gal who's posting leaks from the TROS novel, Rey's father is also a clone. Laughing

https://twitter.com/Riri19911/status/1235021411833368576
@Piper Maru

JJ and CT lost their mind. They basically took EU story as foundation... after saying that EU is irrelevant. We now know why Daisy said that "the cyclops" are key to everything. Rey is "Ken", who was a Triclops' son. They both joined Rebellion.

Triclops was a Human mutant slave who claimed to be the son of Emperor Palpatine.[3] It is possible that this relation may not have been in a strict biological sense, and that Triclops was the implementation of Darth Plagueis's experiments in the influence of midi-chlorians, with the goal of creating a zygote solely through the use of the Force in a fertile humanoid female.

Triclops was a white-haired mutant with three eyes, one being on the back of his head, and sported scars on his temples from electroshocks administered by the Galactic Empire. He was trained to be an Emperor's Eye but Palpatine considered him one of his greatest failures, and had him imprisoned. He languished for years in an Imperial prison on Kessel, fathering a son, Ken, with a former Jedi named Kendalina.
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Post by Mila95 on Tue 03 Mar 2020, 9:19 pm

That clone stuff wasn't even hinted at in the movie. Probably cause it was pretty contrived. I guess the Leia stuff sounds a bit better cause she seems to actually care about her son unlike how it comes across in the movie. Tho that thing about how she wanted Ben to take the Solo legacy, Rey Skywalker one and Poe the Organa one is weird imo, like who thinks like that. But I appreciate the effort to explain Rey Skywalker I guess. Rey mind tricking Finn when he doesn't want her to do something is kinda creepy of her.

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