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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:14 pm

What irritates me is they DID NOT have to kill off the last real Skywalker in order to make films/TV series about new characters. Buffy the Vampire Slayer had the spin off Angel, for example. They could easily make new TV programs set in the same universe with new characters.

It's as if they want to erase everything Lucas, yet they have no problem resurrecting Palps, or making their heroine his descendant.

I still can't quite believe it, that they've killed off all the heroes - yet made their heroine related to the saga's Uber villain.
"Hopeful and satisfying"......they really are taking the p***, aren't they?
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 12:55 pm

@Lily Snape wrote:

It’s the old thing you learn in literature class about character foils— you’re absolutely right. Again, another ripple in the pond that started with the mistake of keeping Poe alive and then making him a bigger character than he should have been. The trio was probably supposed to be Rey, Finn, and— taking Poe away and elating enough time for Kylo to pull a Zuko earlier in the trilogy— Kylo/Ben.
@Lily Snape

that just shows that there was no deeper thinking and planning. if there were, someone would go "wait a minute, our trio is RFK and adding P would change the dyanmic into something that doesn't have intended meaning. so hard pass." But they didn't really intend RFK to be the trio or 3 POVs or whatever which is why they so easily dismissed 3 masked/unmasked characters, who tried to find their place in the larger world, and acted like the "heroic" trio was always the backbone of the trilogy. Rolling Eyes
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Post by Cowgirlsamurai on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 1:04 pm

@snufkin

One thing I found cringey upon first seeing TLJ was how much it harped on the parents thing because I thought that was kind of abandoned in TFA. The answer Rian gave to the dramatic build up was brilliant and I love Rey Nobody, but I hated the focus on who is she related to. Then after ALL OF THAT, IX undid everything, harping on the parents thing AGAIN. It sucks and I’ll never forgive JJ and Chris. The whole trilogy is now just “Who was Rey and why was she so powerful?”

On another note... I’ve been seeing a lot of mixed up people posting on Twitter about things they didn’t “get” in TRoS or details they’ve already forgotten about, and even the Omaze Daisy winner admits he asked Chris questions after the premier because he was confused by the movie, lol.

https://winners.omaze.com/daisy-ridley
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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 2:32 pm

I think they simply had no idea what to do with Rey in TRoS other than going back to the parentage thing. To be completely fair, TLJ wasn’t much help to the writers because Rey Nobody was in a way a dead end and didn’t really leave Rey with anything much to go on with in the next film. The third film would have to set up and then resolve Rey’s brand new personal struggle (that’s separate from her relationship with Kylo in the same way parentage was) all in one film which IMO is not exactly a perfect flow for the trilogy.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 2:45 pm

There was never much more to rey than parentage mystery. No wonder most of Rey discussion was either who's her daddy or Reylo but very rarely Rey herself. It isn't that Rey Nobody was a bad solution for it actually fit into the theme that legacy doesn't matter. It's that parentage as a motivator was a weak sauce and once it was resolved there was nothing to her. She had no real relationship with the resistance to be motivated by them. She had no real relationshiop with the Jedi to care to become one. She collected legacy stuff and "friends" that weren't hers to begin with (AT_AT, helmet, sabers, MF, X Wing, Chewie, leia, Luke, Han). Truly a character that never stood on her own.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 2:58 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai Sheesh, you just reminded me of another annoying thing that JJ's whole Rey Palpatine nonsense messes up, the scene when Finn is pestering her about wanting to go back to Jakku and asking if she has a family or a boyfriend. The eventual answer to that question is now so convoluted and eye rolling.

The way Rian handled the parentage Mystery Box even backs up that scene. She's ashamed/embarrassed over the answer and lies to herself about her parents while telling people like Finn it's not his business. How it played out on Ache-to and in the Throne Room is really where it should have stayed, that she's forced out of her comfort zone/denial into facing the truth and her trauma. The latter is her "darkness" instead of this "turns out the Ultimate Bad Guy is in your family tree" bullshit. I've seen it play out in other movies like A Simple Favor where it's done really well - one of the protagonists is introduced and taken at face value as being the boring/good foil for their co-protagonist/antagonist but as the story progresses, you learn more about the story this person tells about themselves which reveals that they're more complex and forces you in the position of other characters in re-evaluating them. I think Rian started to go there with Rey and goddammit it would've been so much better. Just have her come to terms with her parents being addicts who abandoned her (FFS they even hired Villanelle to play her mother)as acknowledging and incorporating her darkness.

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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 3:28 pm

For the third film, Rey could have further explored her self identity as a person without a legacy or heritage - in TLJ she learns that she doesn't need to rely solely on either idealized heroes or any savior, that she also had the ability to step up and take action and that through that she would find her own identity. Not being a '' someone'' is actually a very relatable challenge, and having nothing to latch onto (versus e how Ben gravitated towards Vader, to define him) can be presented in interesting ways. Though the resistance, are the ' 'good guys' ', some could question her origins and skills, but she would rise above that.

Also if the small bit of ambiguity applied in TLJ were carried over in regard to war profiteering, and bloodshed and responsibility from both sides of the war - Rey, being more hopeful or yearning for a noble ideal would have to learn to deal with moral relativism within  the resistance, and even with Kylo. Rey needing to face harsh realities of war on both sides, but still be hopeful while learning more about complexities of people and even herself.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 3:53 pm

Anothe problem with Rey Palaptine is that the last movie is a bad place for such reveal. if it didn't happen in the first movie (JJ fault) or the second movie (there was nothing in the first to oblige Rian to go for Rey Palp), it shouldn't happen in the last movie. cause such reveal is something a character needs to process and that changes them between movies. That's why Vader reveal works but Leia one doesn't. yet JJ didn't get the memo about the latter. In short, he proved too unflexible and just wanted to force his idea by making TROS a sort of a direct sequel to TFA where tons of stuff had to serve as both second movie and third movie. And that didn't work and everyone who read his script should have seen it didn't work. So many McGuffins, late in the game reveal that has very little impact for game is over before it started, wasting of all characters, it's all in the script because it's all in those JediPaxis leaks. And if redditors could see it was sith, so should have professionals that get paid million dollar salaries to sniff out turds.
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Post by Moonjump05 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:00 pm

Not to mention the blatant worship of the Jedi when the story group had been showing the darkness inherent in the Jedi for years. Truly, TRoS doesn't just ignore TLJ in the matter- it ignores the PT, TCW and Rebels. Take Ahsoka "I'm no Jedi " Tano, she's really part of the all the Jedi ending in TRoS ? Its lazy.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:22 pm

@vaderito @Moonjump05
I agree with all you've said - and it's really miraculous and confusing that TROS was approved by production when it undermines both previous films of the trilogy and all that came before. I also don't think TLJ was that difficult to follow up from, where it left everything wasn't as empty or closed as some might think - characters faced failure in the middle film so that in the next they could have learnt from their mistakes and changed through the last to achieve a better outcome.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:32 pm

I'm no big fan of TLJ and I think that its biggest problem is the finality of its coda ending that left no hook for the next movie. However, it also handed TROS the freedom to go in any direction it wanted and JJ opted to circle back to where ROTJ ended - Palaptine defeated, Empire defeated, Rebellion victorious, last Jedi set to pass the knowledge onto new generations. There was clean slate for something different than ROTJ knock off and we got a ROTJ knock off. So this one is all on JJ and people who approved of TROS (Hubby, KK).
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 4:36 pm

TROS isn't even a direct sequel to TFA, or anything really, and it might have been a better movie if it was. Even if Rey's main thing outside of Kylo and the parentage thing is her bearing the legacy of the Jedi or whatever, that doesn't mean she has to literally do all the same things and go to the same places and have the same reveals and even wear the same outfits as people before her did. But rather break the wheel, as a GOT character once said. The first two movies, especially TLJ and in conjunction with the PT, were getting that across.

All development and progress Rey had got rolled backwards, to maybe even before the beginning. It's like they decided if she has a lightsaber and isn't near-starving anymore, that's character development enough. Eek.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 5:08 pm

@vaderito
TLJ did leave things in a way that gave freedom moving foward - but I personally look at that film, by looking at where each character ended up - which was actually placing them into leadership roles but not yet fully fulfilling their potential. But I read TLJ in a way thats very subjective, so I'm the opposite in actually enjoying the film - but wishing it, along with its predecessor and follow up were less vague or more complementary to each other.

@californiagirl
At the end Rey should have been more fleshed out and distinctive as a character - You're right that TROS especially devolves or regresses the characters development, while also pushing her onto paths already touched on by OT characters, especially Luke. Another reason I dislike the Rey Skywalker ending is that it's actually just sticking a familiar name and superficial similarities onto Rey. Like someone dressing up in a costume. A new character, that's steeped in prolonging nostalgia, while incongruosly getting rid of the other  Skywalkers.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 5:27 pm

TROS is terrible in every way. it infantilize Rey again. it made sense she was like that in TFA due to isolation but not in TROS. yet here we are, she's abck to being childlike in the desert with a big toy.

Poe proved the problem again. he was named the leader in TLJ so he should have been one. deal with leia off screen. yes, people would udnerstand. Instead, they wasted too much energy trying to zombify leia and write the movie around her old TFA footage that wasn't in useable shape (since it was rejected first time around) instead of writing a coherent story. All her scenes were embarrassingly bad because she felt like a zombie. I don't know wtf they were thinking. But back to Poe, he should have been Mon Mothma but no, they had to insert him in "trio" scenes to do stuff that any minion could. Because actors wanted to hang out. Grow a backbone, JJ.

Etc. too tired to go on.
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Post by Saracene on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 5:27 pm

@Darth Snoopy wrote:For the third film, Rey could have further explored her self identity as a person without a legacy or heritage - in TLJ she learns that she doesn't need to rely solely on either idealized heroes or any savior, that she also had the ability to step up and take action and that through that she would find her own identity. Not being a '' someone'' is actually a very relatable challenge, and having nothing to latch onto (versus e how Ben gravitated towards Vader, to define him) can be presented in interesting ways. Though the resistance, are the ' 'good guys' ', some could question her origins and skills, but she would rise above that.
@Darth Snoopy

But Rey already stepped up and took action at the end of TLJ, so she obviously already bounced back from the revelation that she’s a nobody with no legacy. It makes no sense for her to agonise over it again in the last film. If TLJ simply left Rey in a place where she’s crushed by what she’s learned in the throne room, that would leave some room for exploration in the last film, but that wasn’t the case.

Also, the prequels made it clear that force powers are not tied to bloodlines and that the Skywalkers are an exception rather than the rule, so it makes no sense for Rey’s humble origins to be an issue for anyone. If say the SW universe was set up so that the force powers were the sole domain of a few elite families, then yes Rey’s origins would raise eyebrows and probably cause her trouble because they would threaten the existing order. But as it is, Rey Nobody only works as a game changer for the *audience* who naturally expected Rey to be related to an existing powerful SW character.
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Post by reylo1992 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 5:32 pm

@Darth Snoopy wrote:@vaderito @Moonjump05
I agree with all you've said - and it's really miraculous and confusing that TROS was approved by production when it undermines both previous films of the trilogy and all that came before. I also don't think TLJ was that difficult to follow up from, where it left everything wasn't as empty or closed as some might think - characters faced failure in the middle film so that in the next they could have learnt from their mistakes and changed through the last to achieve a better outcome.
@Darth Snoopy

I think that was the intention. Rey healing the desert snake + healing Kylo after she stabbed him was certainly meant to show that she learnt her lesson about"murderous snakes" and that attacking unarmed people wasn't the best way to make things right. This part was done pretty right although I wish we would have seen more conflict from her with the desert snake. I guess that Luke & Leia taking her under their wing was a way to show that they learnt from their mistake by doing right with Rey what they couldn't with Ben. But it's so clumsily done in the end that what it was meant to convey justs gives a totally different vibe, starting with the fact that they still hid her true identity to her like they did with Ben.
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Post by special_cases on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 6:45 pm

@Moonjump05 wrote:Not to mention the blatant worship of the Jedi when the story group had been showing the darkness inherent in the Jedi for years.  Truly, TRoS doesn't  just ignore TLJ in the matter- it ignores the PT, TCW and Rebels.  Take Ahsoka "I'm no Jedi " Tano, she's  really part of the all the Jedi ending in TRoS ?  Its lazy.
@Moonjump05

It's impossible to understand what Jedi represent after TROS. Just good guys... eh because good guys are guys with good intentions. I would take PT's clumsy take on timeless conflict of belief vs institution anyday instead of TROS.

"I am all Jedi" But why Rey is all Jedi? Because she is a main character and all previous characters want her to defeat Big Bad? Cool reason, I bet it makes Rey feel finally special and made her learn so much about *herself*. Seriously, Harry Potter did it much better. Growing up, discovering a truth about Dumbledore and Snape, learning to see beyond white and black, finally becoming a Chosen One because it personally matters and being saved in the end by people who personally matter. It's better because it was always more about being a really strong and kind and good person with Potter and Luke in the final battle and less about being "Chosen One", "great Jedi" and "strong wizard". In Rey's final battle it's more about being "all Jedi"... whatever it means. Videogame.

Ironically it's Kylo who learnt something and whose finall battle was more about his own personality and act of kindness instead of "Jedi want me to defeat Big Bad and then let me die and I'm proud to be among such amazing people yahoo". Rey's final bettle is ridiculous because the Bid Bad wants her to kill him!!! Rey can't lose!!! Even Big Bad will help her to get to the top of situation in every case.
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Post by OrionStars on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 7:43 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:
Do you have a link to what Iger said, please.
I'd like to see it.
@motherofpearl1



Here is what Bobby D just announced
https://www.businessinsider.com/future-of-star-wars-is-tv-on-disney-plus-2020-2

I feel pity for Bobby D, he couldn't even outrightly admit that ST protagonists were terrible, ST the nostalgia sucker and especially TROS were franchise-killers so they couldn't be able to continue with post-ST era anymore, otherwise, it could provoke another "woke war" on twitter. But Bobby knows The Yodalorian is their new gold mine now, even China is fond of Yodalorian and they think it's a decent new SW series
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 4 TNtg4Eu

so Bobby D and the mouse gang are going to roll with The Yodalorian now to rebuild SW reputation
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Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 9:43 pm

@vaderito wrote:There was never much more to rey than parentage mystery. No wonder most of Rey discussion was either who's her daddy or Reylo but very rarely Rey herself. It isn't that Rey Nobody was a bad solution for it actually fit into the theme that legacy doesn't matter. It's that parentage as a motivator was a weak sauce and once it was resolved there was nothing to her. She had no real relationship with the resistance to be motivated by them. She had no real relationshiop with the Jedi to care to become one. She collected legacy stuff and "friends" that weren't hers to begin with (AT_AT, helmet, sabers, MF, X Wing, Chewie, leia, Luke, Han). Truly a character that never stood on her own.
@vaderito

Yep. This is why I have always maintained that no matter how wonderful a cinematic journey TLJ was, it failed in two major ways:
1) It should have given Finn his own agency by aligning him with a stormtrooper uprising. Rose could have been a very able foil there as she had lost her sister in the battle and they lost THEIR parents too. Not much of a stretch there in terms of involvement, and
2) REY *SHOULD* have joined Kylo at the end of TLJ, but as a double agent... Snoke's death was a perfect choice there. She could have joined Kylo UNDER THE TABLE, not as a Darksider but a LIGHTSIDER force that would have based itself on his promise to do away with it all. I'd have loved to see this happen at the end of TLJ. Now, THAT would have upped the ante for IX in more ways than one. Instead, the end felt like a reset.
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Post by snufkin on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 11:01 pm

Both home video releases had deleted scenes for Ben boarding the Falcon and Finn actually making a stand in front of his fellow troopers about rebelling against the system. Which you would've thought were being deferred to later chapters for maximum impact. Except, as with other major plot points and themes, were instead completely dropped. It is jarring the back-and-forth over Rey's heritage (if she ever returns and they try to fix this mess, it'll either be a running joke or ignored like Leia kissing Luke) and meanwhile they bring in Jannah and "we both have the Force so that's why we escaped" as the extent of exploring/resolving Finn's story.

In regards to Throne Room, I'm convinced at this point that while the most logical outcome based on the writing/foreshadowing in TFA and the first two acts in TLJ was for Rey and Ben to team up because of a larger threat, that Trevorrow and/or the studio is responsible for Crait. Which at least that segment had an excellent confrontation between Ben and Luke to resolve their fall-out and send Luke off. I had hoped that Trevorrow being removed from the movie meant we'd get something back more in the spirit of TFA (which obvs now I know better, that script had people like Kasdan, Carrie, and Arndt involved)
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Post by Dar-ren19 on Fri 07 Feb 2020, 11:34 pm

Well, TROS missed a huge scene if they'd had Ben and Rey team up and beat Palpatine. They threw THAT ONE down the pit, I guess.
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Post by snufkin on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 12:37 am

@Dar-ren19 It was definitely foreshadowed in TFA with LST and Han both having monologues about the Force and One Boy/What Girl, then in TLJ with "why is the Force connecting us, you and I?", Snoke taunting them about being weak and foolish, their Smut Hut visions, and Throne Room with finally the overarching plot in Solo about the nobodies teaming up to take on the Imperial/criminal syndicates. At least some of the writing team saw it as a team-up between the two of them to take on and take down a larger common enemy while bringing balance to the Force given all these details between three movies. Which unfortunately we know from the snippets of Trevorrow's script that've been dropped, he wasn't interested in pursuing and we only got the most half-hearted execution of it in TRoS but mostly they dropped all of those threads and instead hustled Ben off stage so she could have her big hero moment against the Emperor and then off to the Disney vault after the half-a**ed resolution of their love story/his redemption because they needed to have a "yay Team BFG!" and "Rey goes to a place that means more to the filmmakers and a small slice of the audience" moment to wrap things up.

In regards to the latter, nostalgia instead of storytelling, I was thinking about how even though I'm not a huge fan/viewer of Stranger Things, I do respect how they manage to make the characters and relationships (for the most part) what draws viewers in and makes them care/be passionate. The 80s homage, especially to John Carpenter and that era of blockbuster films, is part of the fun but when I've seen people talk about the seasons, it's about the characters. Which is something that this final chapter and a lot of these details, fails to land. Even with just watching something else recently that I'm not a fan or regular viewer of, The Good Place, the series did manage to write an ending which tries to resolve and give an ending to each character's story. What happens for Rey and Ben are driven more by agendas like nostalgia/placating a certain segment of the audience and even then, they get more than Finn whose just in the last group hug shot.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 2:45 am

I've just found https://letterboxd.com/jakepcole/film/star-wars-the-rise-of-skywalker/
Courtesy of TeamReylo
Probably the best review of TROS I've ever read. It sums up its failings perfectly.
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Post by Mila95 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 3:22 am

I think they did have stuff to do with Rey apart from again going back to the parentage mystery. The stuff about her powers being difficult to control could have been interesting.The problem was that they gave stuff like her believing she killed Chewie no consequences or reaction apart from Rey screaming his name. Poe and Finn have zero reaction, like that made no sense. It was the perfect moment for Rey to face some doubt from the people around her but it would ruin the trio dynamic they thought was so amazing i guess. The other problem was they attributed her darkness to evil Palpatine genes which is stupid and puts it out of Rey's control. Imo it would have been easy to continue from what TLJ started with Rey's denial and abandonment issues. It had just been revealed that Rey was so deep in denial she spent her whole life on Yakku lying to herself that her parents were coming back, basically imagining scenarios she knew weren't true just to make it easier. She's already shown she's prone to anger outbursts and isn't afraid of the dark side which can be a good thing but in TROS after she's not in denial any more then all this pent up anger about her abandonment and finally fully feeling the extent of her trauma could have been used as a reason for more dark side tendencies.I loved the idea of another reveal about her parents being that she killed them accidentally by trying to stop their ship from leaving, that actually would have been a huge thing to deal with if they really had to continue with the parents stuff and expand on it.

I think the real problem was that JJ and CT both didn't see Rey as her own character. She's either a new Luke or new Leia or a combination of their characters. Anything outside of what they had wasn't possible in the writers minds. It was all about how Rey can embody whatever legacy they felt she needed to have. I mean Rey couldn't even get an original costume for herself, her option was Leia in a New Hope in JJs version or Luke in ROTJ in CTs.

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Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 4 Empty Re: Official TROS Spoilers discussion

Post by motherofpearl1 on Sat 08 Feb 2020, 4:34 am

A lot of people seem to forget that the OT 'trio' - or group, when counting Chewie and the droids - were split up throughout most of ESB, with Luke and Artoo going to Dagobah and the others fleeing the Empire.
And it's widely regarded as the best of the OT.
I think RJ realised this hence the splitting of the Trio in TLJ. And he was right, because Rey, Finn and Poe had their best character arcs. All of them matured.....Rose may have been his 'guiding light' but Finn made his own decision to fully commit to the Resistance. Rey matures and developed from a girl into a woman. And Poe had perhaps the best arc of them all - he went from cocky Han Solo wannabe into his own person.

It makes me genuinely sad how they regressed their characters in TROS. Such a wasted opportunity.....many opportunities.
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