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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by californiagirl on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 11:53 am

Baby rolly Ben part 3! It's the season finale. People are happy, and my timeline still has lots of butterflies because of these. Everyone joking how Ben Solo is literally baby.

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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 12:32 pm

@Atenais wrote:
@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:(...)

A little Exogol, but still haven’t seen anything Palpatine. How mysterious. Gee, wonder what’s up with that. Continuing to fuel all my conspiracy theories, keep it coming.
@californiagirl

?? !! Apologies this equals repeating yourself, if you choose to answer my questions, yet..I am curious....what are your conspiracy theories? Very Happy Smile
@SW_Heroine_Journey

People in this forum are so insightful. I agree with everything you said about Rey being a character that is just a memorabilia collector. That's sad.

And, yeah, I would like to hear about your conspiracy theories too. XD
@Atenais

Mine? I really don't have any, only that a perfect storm caused the rotten apple that is TROS.... Rian Johnson's legalities of why he couldn't, JJ/Bad Robot's selfish negotiations, LF not advocating for characters and myth, and Disney Leadership's not pushing back with LF's lack of advocating caused this. Nobody is a mustache twirling villain or an angel...just humans, making dumb mistakes...unfortunately.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 12:33 pm

@californiagirl wrote:Baby rolly Ben part 3! It's the season finale. People are happy, and my timeline still has lots of butterflies because of these. Everyone joking how Ben Solo is literally baby.

@californiagirl

I love these! So thankful to Hideo Itoyanagi! Very Happy Smile

(My headcanon, it's the flashback scene, all three parts, that we should have seen in TRoS. However, because it's happy, it completely satisfies, and eases my ability to ignore TROS. I recognize it's canon, but I can choose to ignore it. lol)
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Post by snufkin on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 12:46 pm

I've come to the point that I treat Star Wars like it's a sports team I follow and some seasons they have good coaches/players and others, not so much. For the 2014-2018 "season," they were on an incredible streak. And then the coaching staff got sacked, a second string coach and his new guy (who people disliked from other teams) got brought in and while it was a winning season, it wasn't as good or exciting as previous seasons.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 1:08 pm

That's actually a good description, from someone who's never been a sports fan.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 1:52 pm

@motherofpearl1 wrote:That's actually a good description, from someone who's never been a sports fan.
@motherofpearl1

Agree! Smile

Thank you @snufkin - well said! Very Happy
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Post by snufkin on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 3:24 pm

It probably helps that if you follow chatter on Twitter amongst fans, the ones who are very loudly getting mad over any/all criticisms of TRoS because "it's negative" are basically no different from sports fans who follow a team religiously.
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Post by Atenais on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 7:12 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@Atenais wrote:
@SW_Heroine_Journey wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:(...)

A little Exogol, but still haven’t seen anything Palpatine. How mysterious. Gee, wonder what’s up with that. Continuing to fuel all my conspiracy theories, keep it coming.
@californiagirl

?? !! Apologies this equals repeating yourself, if you choose to answer my questions, yet..I am curious....what are your conspiracy theories? Very Happy Smile
@SW_Heroine_Journey

People in this forum are so insightful. I agree with everything you said about Rey being a character that is just a memorabilia collector. That's sad.

And, yeah, I would like to hear about your conspiracy theories too. XD
@Atenais

Mine? I really don't have any, only that a perfect storm caused the rotten apple that is TROS.... Rian Johnson's legalities of why he couldn't, JJ/Bad Robot's selfish negotiations, LF not advocating for characters and myth, and Disney Leadership's not pushing back with LF's lack of advocating caused this. Nobody is a mustache twirling villain or an angel...just humans, making dumb mistakes...unfortunately.
@SW_Heroine_Journey

Not yours, I was only agreeing with you that I would like to hear her conspiracy theories too.

@snufkin wrote:I've come to the point that I treat Star Wars like it's a sports team I follow and some seasons they have good coaches/players and others, not so much. For the 2014-2018 "season," they were on an incredible streak. And then the coaching staff got sacked, a second string coach and his new guy (who people disliked from other teams) got brought in and while it was a winning season, it wasn't as good or exciting as previous seasons.
@snufkin

As a sports fan myself I find your analogy perfect and I will adopt it. ^^
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 8:52 pm

@Atenais

Ahh confused me because @californiagirl answered after my post/question, yet I was tagged, wanted to be sure. Smile Very Happy Anyway, my answer is a in general post too...I've been a lurker here for a bit, thought might as well post something. lol

Quick copy and paste of her conspiracy theory

"Rey Palpatine added in reshoots, without Daisy Ridley, and in post. No Palpatine in the art book, indicating the current iteration of him was a late add, and Adam having to record for exposition machine masked Kylo just a few weeks before release. Nor do Rey and Kylo's conversations actually seem like conversations, but a poor edit, plus Rey never acknowledging her heritage, the minimal impact on the actual plot, etc.

There was an earlier concept art with Kylo going to a ruined Coruscant overrun by giant wolves instead of going to Exogol. That would have been neat.

Oh, and Rose is never mentioned. Boo."
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Post by snufkin on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 9:39 pm

The Art of book was originally announced as coming out in December, then pushed to March, South Korean edition came out early winter and was then recalled. TFA went through changes and updates up until its release (and the Making of book JD Rinzler was going to write was scrapped). So it's not crazy to guess same thing happened here. Especially when fans have caught out glitches just from the home release details which were obvious re-shoots or the audio track not removing JJ's directions from one scene.

Anyways, there was supposed to be something in there from Rian Johnson and a tribute to Carrie Fisher. Other than those details, really not interested. Especially as the Chris Terrio quotes just seem to further compound the criticisms that are coming from people (such as journalists, film critics and academics) who they can't write off as being just disgruntled fans.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 01 Apr 2020, 10:12 pm

I can certainly believe that JJ would keep Rey Palpatine a secret from the cast and even Daisy herself; how does this mesh though with the Luke and Rey scene where he tells her that blood isn't everything or something to that effect? I can see how you can easily change dialogue with masked Kylo, but how does the Luke/Rey scene make sense outside of Rey Palpatine? (I still haven't seen the movie, so I can't judge for myself).
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Post by special_cases on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 12:01 am

@Saracene According to leaks, they completely reshot this scene. That's why Luke looks so silly. Didn't have time for decent VFX.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 2:09 am

I'm sorry but the more I hear about TROS the more I just can't believe what a poorly made film it is.
You'd never believe they had two years and a fortune to make it. This is a classic case of a bloated corporation getting carried away with their own importance to the extent they think a cinema audience, including many long term franchise fans, will be satisfied with a plot less, cobbled together mess. Even worse, one that supposedly ends a forty two year old saga which was loved by so many.
I seriously doubt the company can bounce back like this, maybe they'll make a fortune from other media such as computer games, theme parks(although they must be taking a battering with the current crisis) and toy sales, but I suspect their reputation as movie makers will be forever tarnished.
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Post by unicorn on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 5:02 am

I'm sorry but the more I hear about TROS the more I just can't believe what a poorly made film it is.
You'd never believe they had two years and a fortune to make it

Yeah, this. It´s embarrassing.
With all that money, technical knowledge and possibilities, actors, locations, etc,.. they delivered this.
Ben and Reylo dead is only the cherry on top, this whole movie is a shame.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 5:37 am

I knew Ben's fate before I went in but tried to console myself by telling myself 'at least it'll be a great film - I've never seen a SW film I didn't like.'
First time for everything!
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 10:31 am

@special_cases wrote:@Saracene According to leaks, they completely reshot this scene. That's why Luke looks so silly. Didn't have time for decent VFX.
@special_cases

The reshooting of this scene, although last minute, does remove the possibility that Daisy was unaware of Rey Palpatine? (or maybe she thought it was Palpatine trick for her character)?  I've only seen the movie once (in December), so I don't remember the specifics of the scene, i.e. Daisy and Mark in the same shot where they discuss she is Rey Palpatine.  

(not that it makes Daisy a bad person if she was aware of the storyline, it just causes a feeling of awkward when watching some of her recent interviews which seem to emphasize the importance of Rey Nobody.)


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Post by californiagirl on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 10:40 am

@SW_Heroine_Journey Given that some of Kylo and Rey's conversations together were seemingly cobbled together in post, I wouldn't be surprised if that's also the case for the Luke scene. Especially since ghost Luke would have needed to be on a green screen.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 10:47 am

I have a request which is a bit cheeky......does anyone know of any good Kylo/Ben fansites on Tumblr? I'm not much of a Rey fan these days, sadly.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 12:19 pm

@californiagirl wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey Given that some of Kylo and Rey's conversations together were seemingly cobbled together in post, I wouldn't be surprised if that's also the case for the Luke scene. Especially since ghost Luke would have needed to be on a green screen.
@californiagirl

Ahh. My memory is so fuzzy with it. I have Raynebow_Rayne's Reylo HEA edit of the movie, but I skipped to the end. lol https://twitter.com/Raynebow_Rayne/status/1244578413756723202

She's been very bold about it, lol, even including it on comments of SW Twitter posts.

Anyway, I'll eventually watch her entire version of the movie, not sure if she kept those scenes, but if she did, I'll pay attention. Her version is the only one I can watch. haha
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Post by special_cases on Thu 02 Apr 2020, 8:39 pm

@SW_Heroine_Journey My personal opinion and impression is that Daisy already knew in the autumn (late autumn for sure) because she once said that JJ would disagree with her about Rey being powerful by herself. Her attitude slightly changed last few months. And John's. And because of her wording "JJ would disagree" I can totally see how JJ didn't inform her from the start that they were planning Rey Palpatine.

Additionally, Daisy's interpretation of her character was always quite different from the way creators saw it. I mean, they could have talked about it using the same descriptions, but the trajectory and accents for the character on the screen don't reflect many things Daisy was saying for years, not only Rey Nobody.

That's also true for both John and Driver. That's why I'm saying that JJ should be hold responsible for this mess: he obviously was in his "car salesperson" emploi all this time, for everybody, giving actors false expectations about the way their characters will be handled.

Let's not forget how Driver totally ignored the promo of this movie, especially the end of it. Even for Driver it was very suspicious. I think it's a great indicator of big changes in the way some cast perceived the end of this project. Although, to be fair, Drives's manager\agent could have asked big additional compensation for Driver's involvement in the promo and the Firm decided against it because they knew that ROI for this movie will be tough. I hope everybody noticed that the marketing's budget wasn't adequate for the last Saga movie.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 12:13 am

Remember way back in TFA days when they said "Rey isn't a Skywalker, Kylo's the Skywalker"?
Forgot that pretty quickly, didn't they?
I also remember Daisy saying that she didn't think Rey would end up a Jedi.

JJ didn't just retcon Rian's film, he retconned his own.
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Post by SW_Heroine_Journey on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 5:16 am

@special_cases wrote:@SW_Heroine_Journey My personal opinion and impression is that Daisy already knew in the autumn (late autumn for sure) because she once said that JJ would disagree with her about Rey being powerful by herself. Her attitude slightly changed last few months. And John's. And because of her wording "JJ would disagree" I can totally see how JJ didn't inform her from the start that they were planning Rey Palpatine.

Additionally, Daisy's interpretation of her character was always quite different from the way creators saw it. I mean, they could have talked about it using the same descriptions, but the trajectory and accents for the character on the screen don't reflect many things Daisy was saying for years, not only Rey Nobody.

That's also true for both John and Driver. That's why I'm saying that JJ should be hold responsible for this mess: he obviously was in his "car salesperson" emploi all this time, for everybody, giving actors false expectations about the way their characters will be handled.

Let's not forget how Driver totally ignored the promo of this movie, especially the end of it. Even for Driver it was very suspicious. I think it's a great indicator of big changes in the way some cast perceived the end of this project. Although, to be fair, Drives's manager\agent could have asked big additional compensation for Driver's involvement in the promo and the Firm decided against it because they knew that ROI for this movie will be tough. I hope everybody noticed that the marketing's budget wasn't adequate for the last Saga movie.
@special_cases

The marketing was very lackluster for the conclusion of a 9 movie, 40 yr old saga.

All very intriguing, and thank you for expanding! Smile Very Happy

Also, thank you for your mention that you doubt a edit exists where Ben lives in the end; only that perhaps he was talked about/his sacrifice. I really wish that was kept (would have made the movie a lot better), yet for me...knowing there isn't an alternate Ben living HEA is more comforting...all of this stings less because it's not "we were THIS close"
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 5:57 am

I still can't believe they erased his character the way they did.

I was thinking about ESB. What if they tried the same approach with Han Solo?
After Han is encased in carbonite, Leia, Lando and Chewie flee Cloud City. They return only to pick up Luke. The film ends with Lando Luke and Leia discussing the next course of action. Han isn't mentioned.
ROTJ is all about Luke, Leia, not Han. He's never seen again, or mentioned again. That is just how jarring Adam's character treatment is.

How many bets if Rian had not killed off Luke and Carrie hadn't passed, TROS would have ended with hem giving Rey a group hug and saying 'welcome to the family' or something like that?
But then again, Carrie wouldn't have put up with it.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 6:35 am

@special_cases wrote:

Let's not forget how Driver totally ignored the promo of this movie, especially the end of it. Even for Driver it was very suspicious. I think it's a great indicator of big changes in the way some cast perceived the end of this project. Although, to be fair, Drives's manager\agent could have asked big additional compensation for Driver's involvement in the promo and the Firm decided against it because they knew that ROI for this movie will be tough. I hope everybody noticed that the marketing's budget wasn't adequate for the last Saga movie.

There's no such thing as "Driver ignored the promo". These thigns are regulated by contracts so it only means that he has better contract than the rest of the cast so he doesn't have to appear at theme park meet and greet, for example. He did required minimum but since these things are legally obliging, ignoring what contracts bounds you to do would have consequences. As it is, there's simply nothing in the contract beyond doing bare minimum which is press conference, premiere and maybe one or 2 major talk shows. If LFL wants an actor to do marketing beyond what contract stipulates, they make a separate contract with them if actor agrees that is. So it's false to claim that someone ignored something since that means ignoring legal obligation which isn't the case. The reality is that there was no legal obligation to do more than bare minimum. And he did that.

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 6:59 am

I know this sounds ridiculous, but when I saw TLJ there was a heck of a lot of SW merchandise on sale at the cinemas, I got a Kylo bobblehead, two limited edition Coke bottles and an ice bucket, but there was hardly anything for sale when I saw TROS.
I did however, have a word with one of the staff there, he's a young man, and he agreed with me that Ben's fate and the ending sucked.
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