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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by special_cases on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 7:22 am

@vaderito wrote:
@special_cases wrote:

Let's not forget how Driver totally ignored the promo of this movie, especially the end of it. Even for Driver it was very suspicious. I think it's a great indicator of big changes in the way some cast perceived the end of this project. Although, to be fair, Drives's manager\agent could have asked big additional compensation for Driver's involvement in the promo and the Firm decided against it because they knew that ROI for this movie will be tough. I hope everybody noticed that the marketing's budget wasn't adequate for the last Saga movie.

There's no such thing as "Driver ignored the promo". These thigns are regulated by contracts so it only means that he has better contract than the rest of the cast so he doesn't have to appear at theme park meet and greet, for example. He did required minimum but since these things are legally obliging, ignoring what contracts bounds you to do would have consequences. As it is, there's simply nothing in the contract beyond doing bare minimum which is press conference, premiere and maybe one or 2 major talk shows. If LFL wants an actor to do marketing beyond what contract stipulates, they make a separate contract with them if actor agrees that is. So it's false to claim that someone ignored something since that means ignoring legal obligation which isn't the case. The reality is that there was no legal obligation to do more than bare minimum. And he did that.

@vaderito

Your point doesn't contradict mine. My point wasn't about legal stuff. Driver did bare minimum, as you said, and it's suspicious. I simply can't see Lucasmouse asking Driver NOT to do full marketing. So it's either Driver's initiative (not to do anything beyond bare minimum) or LF and Driver couldn't reach a good deal for both parties.

it's obvious that Driver has a great contract or had some kind of power in all negotitations when it comes to the marketing. It's also obvious that Driver was doing way more promo with TFA and TLJ.

@SW_Heroine_Journey It stings less for me too. I hate this feeling aka "we were this close", just more stressful.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 8:15 am

Actually, that they never wanted a happy ending for Ben Solo makes it worse rather than better for this fan.

They obviously wanted to erase the Skywalker/Solo family completely, and replace them with someone else.

Which begs the question - why make Ben/Kylo so sympathetic? And why make his replacement a descendant of their worst enemy?

It's almost like a slap the the face for George Lucas.
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Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 9:27 am

@special_cases wrote:
@vaderito wrote:
@special_cases wrote:

Let's not forget how Driver totally ignored the promo of this movie, especially the end of it. Even for Driver it was very suspicious. I think it's a great indicator of big changes in the way some cast perceived the end of this project. Although, to be fair, Drives's manager\agent could have asked big additional compensation for Driver's involvement in the promo and the Firm decided against it because they knew that ROI for this movie will be tough. I hope everybody noticed that the marketing's budget wasn't adequate for the last Saga movie.

There's no such thing as "Driver ignored the promo". These thigns are regulated by contracts so it only means that he has better contract than the rest of the cast so he doesn't have to appear at theme park meet and greet, for example. He did required minimum but since these things are legally obliging, ignoring what contracts bounds you to do would have consequences. As it is, there's simply nothing in the contract beyond doing bare minimum which is press conference, premiere and maybe one or 2 major talk shows. If LFL wants an actor to do marketing beyond what contract stipulates, they make a separate contract with them if actor agrees that is. So it's false to claim that someone ignored something since that means ignoring legal obligation which isn't the case. The reality is that there was no legal obligation to do more than bare minimum. And he did that.

@vaderito

Your point doesn't contradict mine. My point wasn't about legal stuff. Driver did bare minimum, as you said, and it's suspicious. I simply can't see Lucasmouse asking Driver NOT to do full marketing. So it's either Driver's initiative (not to do anything beyond bare minimum) or LF and Driver couldn't reach a good deal for both parties.

it's obvious that Driver has a great contract or had some kind of power in all negotitations when it comes to the marketing. It's also obvious that Driver was doing way more promo with TFA and TLJ.

@SW_Heroine_Journey It stings less for me too. I hate this feeling aka "we were this close", just more stressful.
@special_cases

Yeah, he obviously has legal obligations and a great contract, but you’re right, he did more TFA and TLJ promo than for TROS, and even for TFA and TLJ he did way less than what stars usually have to do on press tours, which meant TROS press was virtually nothing. It was really noticeable (he didn’t even attend the Jimmy Kimmel cast interview when he did for TFA and TLJ - those ones have everyone there too). Didn’t attend the London premiere (although supposedly he was sick). Driver changed his tune like Ridley as well. He went from implying and saying he had a vague sense of the ending of his arc for years, and then changed tack very close to time of premiere, where he suddenly started saying that JJ told him his arc up to the beginning of the third movie.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 11:17 am

The point still stands that he couldn't cut his marketing obligations arbitrarily, therefore his marketing obligations were fewer than the rest of the cast. which makes sense cause after TFA some contract re-negotation surely took place as it always does. It's enough to have a clause that if the actor is up for awards than awards campaign would take precedence and boom you have your answer. His absence from TROS red carpet events was well explained by Marriage Story campaign. It isn't like he was idly sitting at home.

Also, you know very quickly and easily if someone is a diva or not. Studios don't call you back if you are. he's filming a movie for Disney so that's that. They didn't have to offer the role to him when Ben Affleck had to downsize his appearance due to scheduling conflict with another movie. There are 1000 actors in their 30s, many of them Disney's very own Marvel alumni. So if there was a problem with Driver's marketing engagement for ST, doubtful he'd be their pick for The Last Duel. Nobody's irreplaceable.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 11:45 am

Adam's a great actor, it's more apparent now than ever, as he was the best thing about TROS.

Even the critics said so.
I honestly wonder how Daisy and John are going to fare post SW. I like Daisy, but their complete mishandling of Rey hasn't done her any favours. And John hasn't done himself any favours with his petulant behaviour on SM.
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Post by vaderito on Fri 03 Apr 2020, 12:29 pm

Franchises aren't about handling or mishandling. Sheer involvement with them is the reason why careers get the boost. You get visibility regardless of handling/mishandling. Unless your performance is really bad, inusitry doesn't care whether you are utilized or not as long as you did a good job.

Also, it's really just the first movie that makes a difference careerwise. The rest of them don't. Point being, you get exposure from the first movie and take it from there. repeating the same thing is your steady work but no more has the boosting value of the first movie. So whining (in some circles) that SW hurt so and so career by mishandling so and so character doesn't hold water. Things were different for PT cause some actors received bad reviews which is bigger deal than doing a good job with poor material. Yet even that didn't derail actors who had good enough non-SW resume to fall back on.
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Post by special_cases on Sat 04 Apr 2020, 1:40 am

@vaderito wrote:The point still stands that he couldn't cut his marketing obligations arbitrarily, therefore his marketing obligations were fewer than the rest of the cast. which makes sense cause after TFA some contract re-negotation surely took place as it always does. It's enough to have a clause that if the actor is up for awards than awards campaign would take precedence and boom you have your answer. His absence from TROS red carpet events was well explained by Marriage Story campaign. It isn't like he was idly sitting at home.

Also, you know very quickly and easily if someone is a diva or not. Studios don't call you back if you are. he's filming a movie for Disney so that's that. They didn't have to offer the role to him when Ben Affleck had to downsize his appearance due to scheduling conflict with another movie. There are 1000 actors in their 30s, many of them Disney's very own Marvel alumni. So if there was a problem with Driver's marketing engagement for ST, doubtful he'd be their pick for The Last Duel. Nobody's irreplaceable.
@vaderito

My personal theory is that Driver used awards campaigns and "I don't want to spoil anything" as the formal excuse for not participating in some forms of promo (like doing more interviews). I don't think that Driver hates the movie, JJ etc. Not this nonsense. I just have a feeling that he didn't have a lot of energy to talk about this project after he was supposed to fight for making Kylo more human. And awards campaigns was a perfect excuse because he was indeed busy most of the time. That's just my personal impression.
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Post by vaderito on Sat 04 Apr 2020, 5:52 am

since marketing was emphasizing the trio, to the point that trio actors felt like a clique removed from other actors such as KMT, Naomi, etc, they clearly didn't need AD.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 05 Apr 2020, 7:41 am

Except to sell the films.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 06 Apr 2020, 4:14 pm

There's a new audio interview going around where the TROS editors say they were consciously undoing TLJ, while TROS naturally continues the story of TFA. Never mind that TLJ didn't really contradict TFA, JJ and Rian collaborated on the evolving script, JJ was executive producer of TLJ and said all kinds of gushy things about it until TROS was almost released, many people accurately predicted the main crux of TLJ based on TFA, and TROS isn't a remotely natural continuation of TFA (or the OT or PT for that matter). It's just sad and shameful at this point. What are they accomplishing with this?
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Post by BB-Rey on Mon 06 Apr 2020, 4:46 pm

@californiagirl wrote:There's a new audio interview going around where the TROS editors say they were consciously undoing TLJ, while TROS naturally continues the story of TFA. Never mind that TLJ didn't really contradict TFA, JJ and Rian collaborated on the evolving script, JJ was executive producer of TLJ and said all kinds of gushy things about it until TROS was almost released, many people accurately predicted the main crux of TLJ based on TFA, and TROS isn't a remotely natural continuation of TFA (or the OT or PT for that matter). It's just sad and shameful at this point. What are they accomplishing with this?
@californiagirl

But but Chris Terrio said ...

“Those people who see it as a meta-argument between J.J. and Rian are missing the point, I think. At the end of The Last Jedi, Luke has changed,” Terrio tells The Hollywood Reporter. “I think it would be a bad misreading to think that that was somehow me and J.J. having an argument with Rian. It was more like we were in dialogue with Rian by using what Luke did at the beginning of The Last Jedi to now say that history will not repeat itself and all these characters have grown."

Sounds legit. They've been doing this from the beginning. "This will begin to make things right." They're I think clearly now trying to bring down the franchise to attempt to bring it up again with stories they think will satisfy. (The High Republic) I think it's a little too late for some.
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Post by Saracene on Mon 06 Apr 2020, 5:47 pm

Re: Luke and the widely spread perception that TRoS gives TLJ a finger where Luke is concerned, I think that a big part of the problem actually goes back to TLJ. As much as I love Luke's arc in the movie, his transition from "the Jedi must end" to "I won't be the last Jedi" doesn't feel particularly earned. He basically dumps on the Jedi for the majority of the film, and even his crucial scene with Yoda reaffirms the idea that the Jedi must end (the audience knows that Rey took the Jedi texts before Yoda burned the tree, but Luke wouldn't know that). But for some reason, in between the Yoda scene and his final appearance on Crait, Luke decides that actually the Jedi must go on... for no other reason than that the movie wants Rey to become the last Jedi and needs Luke to proclaim her as such. And because it doesn't really ring true, Luke's change of heart at the end didn't register with many in the audience, so when in the next film he tells Rey that the Jedi weapon must be treated with respect, it does come off like TRoS is sticking it up to TLJ.

Also, while Yoda's "we are what they grow beyond, it's a burden of all masters" is a beautiful phrase on its own, it feels a tad false when applied to Luke and Rey's dynamic in TLJ where he was never really her master. It's a bit like the movie wanted to have it both ways.
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Post by Mila95 on Mon 06 Apr 2020, 6:42 pm

They look extremely unprofessional, that's pretty much all they're accomplishing here. They made a bad movie, idk if the script or the editing was worse and more criticized. They didn't get either the critics support or much fan support either. So they're blaming it on Rian cause easy target and acting like JJ actually had a vision for the whole trilogy instead of just doing a bunch of mystery boxes like always while knowing he won't be the one to continue the story. And like Rian somehow made a movie that was all on him and wasn't approved by LF and Disney.


Even if Rian didn't go with what JJ wanted JJ still shouldn't have ignored his movie and tried to retcon 90% of it. TFA had vague set up that could have gone either way. Like Rey's parents weren't answered at all and it was made pretty difficult for them to be Luke or Han/Leia, Palpatine having a kid is creepy and weird and wasn't even hinted at previously so Rian went with Rey Nobody. That isn't stepping on JJ's vision because he didn't answer anything in TFA. And with Luke, TFA literally tells us he went into hiding in shame for what happened and then Rian just took that and elaborated. People wanted Luke to have some cooler reason to be gone but it not being the case isn't retcon of TFA at all. Meanwhile a real retcon is your parents were nobody cause they chose to be but they're actually Palpatines and they sold you to protect you lol

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 1:21 am

TFA was great but I suspect that was mostly due to Kasdan. Looking at it now through jaded eyes, I can see that Han's death wasn't really a'sacrifice for his son,' but a way to engender hatred for Kylo, and therefore a reason to kill him off. Harrison Ford's determination to put the 'cheek stroking' bit, plus Adam reacting to it, added far more depth, and one critic described it'as making one of the most horrific parts of the film into one of the most tender'.
We have Harrison and Adam to thank for that, not JJ.
Rian made a vastly superior film. Instead of accepting it for the masterpiece that it is, DLF have the audacity to rubbish it by bragging that they retconned most of it. What for? To appease the bigots who forced Kelly off Instagram? To appease the fans of the fossilized old Jedi system, which it's own creator, George Lucas, tried to vilify? To appease the vitriolic Kylo haters, like the one who drove me of a social media site I'd been on for over a decade?
Or to pander to JJ and Terrio's distorted image of the Twins as holy virginal creatures with a surrogate daughter who was another holy virginal creatures.
Whatever, I've chosen not to degenerate to their level, and I will not send DLF threats or even a letter asking them why they did it. But here, where we can safely show our feelings, I can honestly say I will never ever forgive them.
I'll never forgive them for:
Making me hate Rey.
Making Finn's character arc completely pointless, as his decision not to kill on Jakku was not his personal choice but the influence of the Force.
Wasting Hux.
Bringing back a legendary villain in a manner that was an embarrassment to the character and the actor playing him.
Making the heroine said villain's descendant.
Erasing most of Rian's fresh and original new ideas, such as the notion of a 'grey Jedi', a not so holier than thou Resistance and a possible conflict between two factions that were neither entirely good, or evil - rather like Princess Mononoke
Trying to turn Poe into Han Solo.
Trying to create a new trio instead of going in a new direction.
Giving Poe Dameron more screen time than Kylo Ren.
The appalling treatment of Kelly Marie Tran, both as a character and an actor.
Character assassinating Luke and Leia.
But mostly.....
Killing off the best character SW ever had, and in such an inane way, without other characters mourning him, or even mentioning him. Not only did this make the last SW film depressing, but it made the entire Star Wars saga utterly pointless. Kylo haters have had a field day. The rest of us have had our hearts broken. For me it's forever tainted something that helped me through the bad parts of my childhood and therefore had a special place in my heart.ill never be able to watch the other films in the same way again - if at all. I might just keep TLJ as a standalone.

I see the new characters for the High Republic books have been unveiled. All of them sexually neutered stereo types. We've seen it all before. DLF are chained willingly to the past.
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Post by unicorn on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 1:23 am

history will not repeat itself and all these characters have grown."

Umm, have they watched their own movie?

They clearly didn´t watch TFA, because how and where TROS can be seen as smooth continuation for TFA is beyond me. For TLJ they admitted with this more or less they threw Rian´s movie under the bus on purpose.

They should better all shut up for good and pretend TROS did never happen. I have lost all respect for this bunch of id*ots.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 2:18 am

@unicorn wrote:
history will not repeat itself and all these characters have grown."

Umm, have they watched their own movie?

They clearly didn´t watch TFA, because how and where TROS can be seen as smooth continuation for TFA is beyond me. For TLJ they admitted with this more or less they threw Rian´s movie under the bus on purpose.

They should better all shut up for good and pretend TROS did never happen. I have lost all respect for this bunch of id*ots.
@unicorn

Yes, you would think they watched something else entirely, the way they go on about it. TLJ did not undo anything, because there was very little to undo in the first place. Anyways, TLJ was the middle chapter - usually where there is some deconstruction - so if there was anything they perceived as being undone, it happened at the point of the narrative where it traditionally does (*cough*not the last chapter*cough*). Lucas and Co. did it in both TESB and AOTC. But they don't care about that Rolling Eyes

They do need to stop talking about the film, it's been 4 months - Brandon, as the editor of TFA and TROS, saying things like this just stirs up a JJ vs Rian notion, real or not.  It also comes off as them reversing or projecting any valid criticisms of TROS onto TLJ. Whether or not TLJ was someone's cup of tea or not, it happened and was approved by Lucasfilm. It did well at the BO and most critics & GA liked it - so it wasn't some kind of flop to warrant distancing. Unfortunately, TROS was also approved by higher ups, with all its messy and sore thumb retconning.
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Post by special_cases on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 5:42 am

They were undoing TLJ in the editing room. And via reshoots.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 6:24 am

@unicorn wrote:
history will not repeat itself and all these characters have grown."

Umm, have they watched their own movie?

They clearly didn´t watch TFA, because how and where TROS can be seen as smooth continuation for TFA is beyond me. For TLJ they admitted with this more or less they threw Rian´s movie under the bus on purpose.

They should better all shut up for good and pretend TROS did never happen. I have lost all respect for this bunch of id*ots.

Unicorn would it be any trouble to send me the link to that article?

Grown - um, what on a flat Earth are they smoking? Every one of the characters have regressed, but Rey most of all. She's gone from a lonely young girl sliding down sand dunes.....
To a young girl sliding down sand dunes.confused
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Post by unicorn on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 10:33 am

@Motherofpearl1

Sorry, no, I have no link.
The line in my post is a copy/paste from BB-Rey´s post above.
An interview from Terrio for The Hollywood Reporter?

@special_cases

Does it matter where and when they undid TLJ? They did it and for me it seems, they did it willingly. scratch
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Post by KiraRen2015 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 10:48 am

@unicorn wrote:@Motherofpearl1

Sorry, no, I have no link.
The line in my post is a copy/paste from BB-Rey´s post above.
An interview from Terrio for The Hollywood Reporter?

@special_cases

Does it matter where and when they undid TLJ? They did it and for me it seems, they did it willingly. scratch
@unicorn

Yet didn't JJ swear he wouldn't retcon TLJ? Lol *facepalm*
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 11:18 am

And he also said that he wouldn't bring Leia back by CGI.

I get so angry whenever they insult Rian. He didn't'degrade' Luke at all, there had to be a very good - or perhaps bad - reason for why he chose to exile him. In TFA Han actually said 'One boy turned, destroyed it all, Luke felt responsible and walked away.' Rian gave Luke a perfect character arc, and Mark gave the performance of his life. If anyone character assassinated Luke it was Terrio and Abrams, they took this complex, flawed but noble man and turned him into a creepy 'husband' to his own sister - someone else they character assassinated to provide Perfect Rey with a surrogate mother.
Rian took Poe and Finn, and continued their stories. Max Kanata described Finn as 'a man who wanted to run' in TFA. That was what JJ made him. Rian gave him a love interest and developed him into a committed rebel. Some people actually hated that Rose 'ruined' his suicide attempt, but for me that was Rose's character arc, from a hate filled, slightly fanatical young woman into someone who realised life was more important than a 'cause'.
Finn and Rey were NEVER meant to be a romantic couple, it said as much in the TFA art book. That had nothing to do with John's ethnicity, despite the words of his fans and Kylo haters. Both characters were conceived originally as white. And there was zero sexual chemistry between Daisy and John - they were more like brother and sister. Finn was never meant to lay the pipe with Rey.
Poe was at his best in TLJ, a cocky arrogant but likeable man who at the end was ready to take Leia's place as General, which was what she groomed him to be. No wonder Oscar preferred playing him in TLJ.
Both Finn and Poe's story arcs were actually complete in TLJ, whereupon Kylo and Rey's real relationship was just beginning.

Rian never once retconned TFA. He progressed the story beautifully, and gave us the most complex, thought provoking SW ever. And they destroyed it all with TROS. Funnily enough, its not JJ and Terrio I despise the most, it's DLF for allowing them to do this, and actually approving of it. It's diabolical they've treated Rian like that. They're acting like spiteful little kids.
They should be ashamed of themselves.
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Post by Birdwoman on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 11:38 am

I saw the comments about that interview on Twitter yesterday. There are many things that annoyed me about TROS but I can not stand people who are unprofessional. They really need to just own that they made a bad movie. It is a bad movie. It ended the trilogy horribly and they just need to acknowledge that and try to do better. I don't expect them to publicly acknowledge it for me. They just need to stop blaming Rian for their crappy movie. They should blame JJ for being the one who set up the story, was the executive producer on TLJ and signed off on the script and chose a crappy script writer to finish off the trilogy. They need to focus on who is at fault including the higher ups who meddled and were too big of cowards to move the franchise forward.
I have not even read the character descriptions yet of the High Republic. I am not interested in another boring Jedi story.

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Post by KiraRen2015 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 12:20 pm

@motherofpearl1 I agree with most of what you said with the exception of Luke. One of the biggest faults of TLJ (and TROS) is the fact that there was no context given as to why Luke - the only person in the galaxy who believed Darth Vader was capable of redemption - tried to murder his sister's child. Because of a vision that we as the audience weren't even privy too? No I'm sorry that is not good enough. There is no way I can buy that. I know some people have tried to say "well time changes you" as a reason but there is still no context at all. We know nothing of Luke and Ben's relationship in the film, whether it started out good and what happened to make it change. We are told that Snoke was involved somehow but not told or shown how. At the end if the day it just shows a massively out of character moment for a beloved character millions of people around the world adore and look up to. Personally in my opinion, I think this one issue is why Mark Hamill was so opposed to Luke's arc and why so many fans were upset with the film. It certainly left a very bad taste in my mouth for months after I saw TLJ because it was so jarring. Rian should have been aware of that or somebody at LF should have certainly known and tsken steps to show the absolute truth of why Luke had become what he was like I dunno, have Rey have some force visions of it in that dark side cave?

But regardless of that, JJ was the one who left Luke on that island with only Han's monologue as a vague explanation. He let Poe live despite him originally meant to be killed off, giving Rian the task of having to write a extra story for him. And if JJ did have a problem with thexway Rian wrote Luke, he could've easily wrote a simple explanation during Rey and Luke's scene on Ahch To where Palpatine manipulated Luke and Ben against each other and put those dark thoughts into Luke's mind. There. Problem solved. But nope he went straight back to the whole "Jedi = pure goodness" mindset. He could have easily made that controvesial scene in TLJ less so but chose not too and I wouldn't be surprised if it was out of spite.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 1:23 pm

I actually didn't see what Luke did so much as out of character, but as the result of emotional scarring all the OTC had because of their experiences in the past.

Unlike her brother, Leia never saw Vader redeemed, both she and her husband were tortured by him, and ultimately whenever their son misbehaved they though it was 'too m uch Vader'.

In Luke's case, I don't think it was fear of Ben being like Vader, but fear of him falling to the dark because of his own experience. Luke very nearly killed his father . He very nearly succumbed to it in ROTJ, it was only when he cut off his father's hand and saw it was cybernetic like his own did he realise he was on the verge of becoming just like him.
It wasn't so much Luke saw Vader in his nephew, he saw himself. And when he 'looked' into the future and saw what would happen, for one instant he forgot who he was, who Ben was, and instinctively lit his sabre - but for one fleeting instant.
Luke's was afraid of himself, that darkness that was inside him and every living thing in the universe. Hence his contemptuous referring to himself with 'that mighty Skywalker blood.' He'd faced that darkness and accepted that it existed, but he was always disturbed by how close he'd come to losing himself.
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Post by californiagirl on Tue 07 Apr 2020, 1:34 pm

Jenny continuing to be right about things.

Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 38 Scree723
Official TROS Spoilers discussion - Page 38 Scree724

But I don't think Han's death was done solely to make people hate Kylo. I commented recently on someone's post that Kasdan is really the one who knew what he was doing in TFA, but JJ didn't learn anything from it. So sans Kasdan and post-TLJ, plus Terrio, you get a TROS that doesn't even line up with TFA or their supposedly beloved OT.
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