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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by californiagirl on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 1:35 pm

Jannah was like a combo of Finn and Rose, but kind of didn't serve an actual purpose. Which is a shame, because I do like her, and the actor has been nothing but delightful on and off screen.
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Post by Atenais on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 1:41 pm

@californiagirl wrote:Jannah was like a combo of Finn and Rose, but kind of didn't serve an actual purpose. Which is a shame, because I do like her, and the actor has been nothing but delightful on and off screen.
@californiagirl

Totally agree.
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Post by Geralt_Riv on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 2:33 pm



It's so hilarious. Laughing

It's canon for me. Cool
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 3:48 pm

@Atenais wrote:
@californiagirl wrote:Jannah was like a combo of Finn and Rose, but kind of didn't serve an actual purpose. Which is a shame, because I do like her, and the actor has been nothing but delightful on and off screen.
@californiagirl

Totally agree.
Ditto. Naomi could have been Lando-s smuggler daughter!
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Post by vaderito on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 5:01 pm

@Cowgirlsamurai wrote:I still can’t bring myself to buy or borrow the novel and while I have most of the “Shakespeare” books and that cover is beautiful, I just can’t subject myself to that story anymore. The more they talk about it, the angrier I get, but truthfully it was all evident just from watching the film. “We weren’t trying to undo any of Rian’s story.” Uhh... you pretty blatantly did, though.
@Cowgirlsamurai

The cover is beautiful and they left money on the table when they killed Ben. Many reylos would have bought the book otherwise but not now.
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Post by DeeBee on Sun 12 Apr 2020, 11:36 pm

@Geralt_Riv - Thanks for sharing! ahhh so good!! ( anything that uses Beethoven’s 7th is fabulous)

“Meat puppet?!”

“Dark Lord of failing and then pretending that was the plan! “

I was giggling right through the knights of ren section- “are they my babysitters? Or my fan club?”

He saved the best for last with Reylo!
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Post by fuhry on Mon 13 Apr 2020, 8:11 am

@Geralt_Riv wrote:

It's so hilarious. Laughing

It's canon for me. Cool
@Geralt_Riv

For all the TROS criticism we've all been doing, this is the freaking mike drop. So good.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 13 Apr 2020, 2:31 pm

At least we can still laugh!😆
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Post by Lily Snape on Tue 14 Apr 2020, 10:29 pm

@fuhry wrote:I think a big part of the Star Wars magic is the ensemble acting. Watching Luke find the droids, Obi-wan, and then Han and Chewie, the whole group blasts into space on an adventure, the young kid, the old wizard, the wisecracking smuggler. Then, when they get to the Death Star, the droids split off, Obi-wan goes off, and now we get the Luke/Han/Chewie fun chemistry. Then Leia gets added in and suddenly there's tension and competition between Han and Luke, which is also kind of fun. Then Luke goes off with his pilot crew, which is also kind of fun.

To me, the reason TFA really worked (despite its problems) is that it really recreated that nicely. You have Rey finding BB-8, then Finn, and they have a really fun chemistry. Then you add in Han and Chewie and it ramps up a notch. Yes, Finn has that fun moment with Poe, but it's short and fleeting, getting Finn from A to B. Finn and Poe's chemistry is at it's best but it's brief. Finn and Rey, on the other hand, have a better adventure chemistry. And then of course there is the Rey/Kylo chemistry which kind of sets Finn adrift. Meanwhile Poe's real chemistry is with Leia and the x-wing squad he commands.

In TLJ, the Poe/Leia chemistry continues. Meanwhile Rey is on her journey to Kylo through Luke (with whom the chemistry is decent, not Luke/Yoda level but kind of good). And Finn finds Rose who is kind of like a surrogate Rey for him but much more aligned with his journey. And you definitely get some Rey/Chewbacca fun going on. The chemistry in TLJ is really 1:1, not so much groups.

So I understand why you'd want to bring characters more together in the final act. And putting Threepio right in the action was a solid move in that regard. But putting Poe out with Finn and Rey and Threepio gallivanting around is backwards character development. He's gone through this great maturing process in TLJ, and with Leia dying, the logical progression is for him to continues his leadership arc. But instead, he's running around with the group being the dominant character and rendering Finn superfluous. I even like the Poe/Rey bickering - I think it makes sense, but small doses would have been much better, just as small doses of Finn/Poe bromance are better.

You know what would have been fun? Finn/Rey/Rose. Imagine if Rose was the one out with Finn and Rey, navigating her feelings for Finn and Rey's friendship bond with him. With no one clearly in command of that group, it's a much more fun scenario. And Poe could have been back at base, continuing his relationship with / replacement of Leia and that would have ended up developing Connix' character a bit as Poe's sounding board.

So I really think that their love affair with the character of Poe (TFA version) really undercut their attempt to create some quality star wars ensemble acting. His presence just blocks the development of Finn and Rey (and Rose, OMG) and the creation of an alternate story for him as a former smuggler really wastes a lot of precious screen time, which is truly inexcusable when you're trying to explain how the f**** Palpatine got un-dead.

It's like a freaking Poe spinoff movie. Have Rose and Poe switch places and it's instantly a better movie. Switching Hux and Pryde would work wonders too. As for Kylo, they moved his development back too, forcing them to start from their own 10 yard line and waste screen time rehashing what he and Rey already went through in TLJ.
@fuhry

Yes!! Poe should have been the commander— have him stay on the base and send Rose on an adventure. Pass the Bechdel test for once— have Rey and Rose converse about something other than a guy. Give Rey more time with Kylo. Turn Kylo sooner and have him work awkwardly with the good guys (see the TV series Avatar: The Last Airbender for the perfect redemption arc.) Have him save the galaxy selflessly, not just the one remaining person he loves, and have him live and deal with the complexities of being a former leader of the enemy who has done something incredibly good. Give Finn and Rose the stormtrooper uprising Finn deserves and the romance they began. Get rid of Pryde, and Dominic Monahan’s character (seriously— why?), and let Hux be Kylo’s full-on nemesis with no Snoke manipulating them— and let Hux be deliciously bad. And of course, let Ben a Solo live and get the girl.

It’s so clear what a good movie this could have been. It’s sort of phenomenal how very, very bad they made it with such good materials.
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Post by Birdwoman on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 12:43 am

They Kylo Ren reacts to TROS is the best one. I couldn't stop laughing and I agreed with everything he said. LOL

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 1:39 am

@Lily Snape wrote:
@fuhry wrote:I think a big part of the Star Wars magic is the ensemble acting. Watching Luke find the droids, Obi-wan, and then Han and Chewie, the whole group blasts into space on an adventure, the young kid, the old wizard, the wisecracking smuggler. Then, when they get to the Death Star, the droids split off, Obi-wan goes off, and now we get the Luke/Han/Chewie fun chemistry. Then Leia gets added in and suddenly there's tension and competition between Han and Luke, which is also kind of fun. Then Luke goes off with his pilot crew, which is also kind of fun.

To me, the reason TFA really worked (despite its problems) is that it really recreated that nicely. You have Rey finding BB-8, then Finn, and they have a really fun chemistry. Then you add in Han and Chewie and it ramps up a notch. Yes, Finn has that fun moment with Poe, but it's short and fleeting, getting Finn from A to B. Finn and Poe's chemistry is at it's best but it's brief. Finn and Rey, on the other hand, have a better adventure chemistry. And then of course there is the Rey/Kylo chemistry which kind of sets Finn adrift. Meanwhile Poe's real chemistry is with Leia and the x-wing squad he commands.

In TLJ, the Poe/Leia chemistry continues. Meanwhile Rey is on her journey to Kylo through Luke (with whom the chemistry is decent, not Luke/Yoda level but kind of good). And Finn finds Rose who is kind of like a surrogate Rey for him but much more aligned with his journey. And you definitely get some Rey/Chewbacca fun going on. The chemistry in TLJ is really 1:1, not so much groups.

So I understand why you'd want to bring characters more together in the final act. And putting Threepio right in the action was a solid move in that regard. But putting Poe out with Finn and Rey and Threepio gallivanting around is backwards character development. He's gone through this great maturing process in TLJ, and with Leia dying, the logical progression is for him to continues his leadership arc. But instead, he's running around with the group being the dominant character and rendering Finn superfluous. I even like the Poe/Rey bickering - I think it makes sense, but small doses would have been much better, just as small doses of Finn/Poe bromance are better.

You know what would have been fun? Finn/Rey/Rose. Imagine if Rose was the one out with Finn and Rey, navigating her feelings for Finn and Rey's friendship bond with him. With no one clearly in command of that group, it's a much more fun scenario. And Poe could have been back at base, continuing his relationship with / replacement of Leia and that would have ended up developing Connix' character a bit as Poe's sounding board.

So I really think that their love affair with the character of Poe (TFA version) really undercut their attempt to create some quality star wars ensemble acting. His presence just blocks the development of Finn and Rey (and Rose, OMG) and the creation of an alternate story for him as a former smuggler really wastes a lot of precious screen time, which is truly inexcusable when you're trying to explain how the f**** Palpatine got un-dead.

It's like a freaking Poe spinoff movie. Have Rose and Poe switch places and it's instantly a better movie. Switching Hux and Pryde would work wonders too. As for Kylo, they moved his development back too, forcing them to start from their own 10 yard line and waste screen time rehashing what he and Rey already went through in TLJ.
@fuhry

Yes!! Poe should have been the commander— have him stay on the base and send Rose on an adventure. Pass the Bechdel test for once— have Rey and Rose converse about something other than a guy. Give Rey more time with Kylo. Turn Kylo sooner and have him work awkwardly with the good guys (see the TV series Avatar: The Last Airbender for the perfect redemption arc.) Have him save the galaxy selflessly, not just the one remaining person he loves, and have him live and deal with the complexities of being a former leader of the enemy who has done something incredibly good. Give Finn and Rose the stormtrooper uprising Finn deserves and the romance they began. Get rid of Pryde, and Dominic Monahan’s character (seriously— why?), and let Hux be Kylo’s full-on nemesis with no Snoke manipulating them— and let Hux be deliciously bad. And of course, let Ben a Solo live and get the girl.

It’s so clear what a good movie this could have been. It’s sort of phenomenal how very, very bad they made it with such good materials.

That's the worst thing about TROS. You can see what it could be been.
I remember how at the end of TLJ when Luke addressed Kylo how the camera swung to each character:
'The Resistance is reborn tonight' - we see Poe, Leia behind him, ready to step into her shoes as leader
'The war has just begun' - Finn, whose entire purpose has been building up to the role of leading a stormtrooper rebellion
'I will not be the last Jedi' - we see Rey, but we also then switch to Ben/Kylo

And finally.....as the distraught Ben kneels in the abandoned base, that predatory look on Hux's face.

Rian set it up beautifully. The final film should have been about the conflict between two warring factions, and how to resolve it. Kylo's redemption should have been much earlier, possibly due to a coup by Hux. Rey could have been caught in the middle, torn between her bond with Kylo and her loyalty to the Resistance - especially if Poe was a more fanatical leader than Leia.
Rian did not'put them in a corner', the idiots. He practically handed them a new, contemporary SW universe. And the threw it away to focus on a stale 'been there, done that' third rate rehash of ROTJ. Minus the happy ending.
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Post by fuhry on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 10:56 am

@motherofpearl1 Really well put. It's clear that moving Rey away from the Resistance, Kylo away from the FO, and them toward each other is where the story needed to go. And it fits in with a concept which works as a summation for the whole saga: The involvement of force sensitive people in politics and war causes suffering and pain for everybody. That's what started this whole thing in TPM. And Rey and Ben coming together put an end to that.

You could have the Resistance win and celebrate, but the real victory has to be Rey and Ben together, putting an end to the Star Wars by reaching a higher and more nuanced understanding of the Force. That does mean some kind of bittersweet situation between Finn and Rey, but it gives him an interesting arc caught between Rey and Poe.

Other details, like Palpatine coming back or not coming back, Rey's lineage, et cetera, are the decisions the storyteller would have to make but don't really matter as much as the central direction of the tale, which I agree Rian clearly laid out.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 11:02 am

@motherofpearl1 @fuhry

Rian Johnson basically wrote them a strong step ladder to stand on for the next film, but instead they pushed it aside for a thin box of nostalgia and bad decisions. The story toppled, now I passive-aggressively laugh Laughing I have the smallest hope, that Disney and Lucasfilm, may adjust their steering - and not further damage the SW universe and brand through bad products
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 11:15 am

Worst thing is, as a poster on Tumblr rightly pointed out, what was the real point of Ben Solo?

If they wanted him to die, why make him such a sympathetic, relatable character? Why not simply have the creepy man/machine hybrid the Jedi Killer from the early concepts in the art book?

If they wanted the last Skywalker to be a woman why not make REY Han and Leia's child, or aclong lost child of Luke?

Why, if their intention was for Rey to end up alone, did they stress that she wanted 'be!onging'?
The Resistance couldn't be her family, they would disband and go to their own homes and families once the war was over.

Why did we see Rey enthusing over the 'green' of Takodana when her fate was to end up alone in another f****** desert.

And why give Poe Dameron so much screen time when his character was supposed to die in TFA? I honestly am astonished that a secondary character was elevated to a major role while a major character was killed off without anyone even mentioning him in the last part of the film?
No wonder there were so many conspiracy theories post TROS.
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Post by Darth Snoopy on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 12:02 pm

@motherofpearl1
The simplest explanation to me, is that they didn't have a story beat set down from the beginning, and if they did were not sure of it or perhaps too sure of it. As for Lucas' outlines, most of what we know about them are basic and speculative. The priority of DLF seems to have been to reform Star Wars, with the need to move away from the Skywalker family. My problem with the ST is that I think DLF were overconfident in the want and thought that Star Wars was separable from the Skywalkers - they wanted too many things at one time. Finish the family's Saga satisfactorily then explore other non-realated spin offs and media in a galaxy far, far away. Or don't touch the Skywalkers as a focal point if all you want is the nostalgia and iconography - it is a blatantly cheap, move for the sake of profit. There may also have actually been some other behind the scenes drama/conflict that we don't know. As for 9, Disney interfered for the sake of a deadline, meaning few competent directors & writers would confidently accept the task of heading episode 9. Hence quick fix Abrams and Terrio, who need good collaborators to produce better content. Star Wars may have been the film that launched the true form of modern blockbuster franchises, but it was never void of actual story and character intent. The ST was mostly a reel of deja vu, or spot the easter egg. Obviously they thought or more frighteningly think SW can be just that.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 12:17 pm

It's ironic, but years from now, it won't be TLJ they'll remove from canon - it'll be TROS.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 1:57 pm

It feels like there was 4-5 years of deliberate buildup of the new canon, but got chucked out in panic at the last second, which is just tragic. TROS screwed over everything LF had done since Disney bought them in one fell swoop.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 3:07 pm

Remember how we defended them when haters called Rey a Mary Sue. And claimed Disney had ruined SW?

I wish we hadn't bothered.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 15 Apr 2020, 5:04 pm

The big problem is that DLF tried to move away from the Skywalkers inside the Skywalkers’ own story. They could have moved away from the family saga by simply coming up with a brand new story and brand new characters, but that was risky and the temptation to lean on nostalgia and beloved characters was way too strong. So instead the ST had to serve two masters, trying to tell the stories of new characters that somehow had to be worked into the bigger Skywalker story, and continue the family saga that had to end with the new characters succeeding the Skywalkers. The frustrating thing is that, in Reylo, they had a perfect opportunity to fuse the old with the new, instead of just killing off the old for the sake of new, but then they wasted it.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 1:39 am

The Mandalorian proves you can have 'spin off' characters without sacrificing the originals.

I am genuinely bewildered how Abrams, Terrio and even Daisy said people would find the ending 'hopeful'and'satisfying' when, no matter how you put it, the entire Skywalker bloodline has been wiped out. Making Rey an 'adopted' Skywalker is all very well but as I've said before - she's a Palpatine. It wouldn't have been quite so jarring if she was a nobody, but they chose to make her a Palpatine.

If Ben had lived, even Rey Palpatine might have been salvageable. The last Skywalker marries Palpatine's granddaughter, and the wounds of the past are healed. I don't know if anyone here has seen the 1997 Travolta/Cage movie Face/Off, but they did something similar there.

The only thing accomplished by the ending they chose was to turn a four decade old saga that was a tale of hope and the power of love into a depressing, nihilistic fail. They did Carrie's memory no justice at all by completely character assassinating Leia. They made Rey into a smug goody two shoes who never mourned the young man who gave her his life.
Worse than that - no one would know Kylo Ren had redeemed himself because little smart a** Rey couldn't be a**** to tell them. It's especially jarring when in TLJ Rey made a point of telling Luke how is act of saving his father had gone down in history.
No one would ever know Ben's sacrifice because Rey didn't bother to tell anyone. Heck, in the novel she was grateful for the help of the Jedi BEFORE thinking of what Ben had done - he was an afterthought. For all the 'Ill always be with you' c*** in the novel, Rey swanned off to become an honorary skywalker without a second thought for the real one. I hoped in the book she'd have a scene where she told Finn but apparently not.

How JJ, Chris and Daisy honestly think long term SW fans will find this ending uplifting is beyond me. Oh, it's okay because all your heroes are wiped out, but it's cool, because the descendant of their destroyer has adopted their name - isn't that wonderful?

No guys, it isn't. Not one bit.
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Post by unicorn on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 2:08 am

@motherofpearl1 wrote:Remember how we defended them when haters called Rey a Mary Sue. And claimed Disney had ruined SW?

I wish we hadn't bothered.
@motherofpearl1

Yeah, same here. But never again, lesson learned.
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Post by special_cases on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 11:26 am

@Saracene wrote:The big problem is that DLF tried to move away from the Skywalkers inside the Skywalkers’ own story. They could have moved away from the family saga by simply coming up with a brand new story and brand new characters, but that was risky and the temptation to lean on nostalgia and beloved characters was way too strong. So instead the ST had to serve two masters, trying to tell the stories of new characters that somehow had to be worked into the bigger Skywalker story, and continue the family saga that had to end with the new characters succeeding the Skywalkers. The frustrating thing is that, in Reylo, they had a perfect opportunity to fuse the old with the new, instead of just killing off the old for the sake of new, but then they wasted it.
@Saracene

Perfect summary of what happened with Sequel Trilogy!
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Post by vaderito on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 12:09 pm

@Saracene wrote:The big problem is that DLF tried to move away from the Skywalkers inside the Skywalkers’ own story. They could have moved away from the family saga by simply coming up with a brand new story and brand new characters, but that was risky and the temptation to lean on nostalgia and beloved characters was way too strong. So instead the ST had to serve two masters, trying to tell the stories of new characters that somehow had to be worked into the bigger Skywalker story, and continue the family saga that had to end with the new characters succeeding the Skywalkers. The frustrating thing is that, in Reylo, they had a perfect opportunity to fuse the old with the new, instead of just killing off the old for the sake of new, but then they wasted it.
@Saracene

Absolutely this. They had a perfect way to fuse both. Instead, they overloaded the movies with characters that had nothing to do with Skywalkers while at the same time not being interesting on their own. The result is filler-heavy trilogy those theme and what it is about is hard to pinpoint.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 12:30 pm

To be honest TROS should have focused on Kylo and Rey. Finn and Poe's story arcs were done at the end of TLJ.

But.... trying to tell people that is hopeless. They're the kind who think Reylo is racist because Rey isn't paired with Finn, yet at the same time see nothing wrong in racially abusing Kelly Tran.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 12:37 pm

So rewatched TROS few days ago ( have seen it 5 times now since December ) and now watching mandalorian as it’s available in uk and the more I mull it over the more am convinced Star Wars is the netherworld. The land of ghosts as we are told in lords of the sith book when vader is at a twilek celebration gets a revelation ( that everyone is dead and he is seeing ghosts ). I just can’t see it any other way . I’ve recently read the cruel prince novel and keturah and lord death which made me think of netherworlds in a different way - land of fe ( fairy land being the ether too and a mirror to our world , dark and violent )and also the netherworld and its journey being a landscape of the soul in keturah and lord death . These two books talk about how bloodline and iron ( which blood is made from ) is something of flesh and blood and earth . This to me explains why bloodline doesn’t matter in Star Wars ultimately because it’s something that matters in the living realm . Star Wars is a spiritual world - death is something Jedi aim for - to be one with the force, at rest , at peace and it’s something yoda says we should rejoice about and not mourn . This sounds harsh to us but makes sense if it’s either the soul undergoing a journey in the netherworld until it finds peace or Rey and kylo represent the force as archetypes cosmic and living ( in archaic English Sith means journey and Rey did say she saw both her and kylo on the throne of the Sith - both on the journey together ). It would explain the visions or in Kylo’s case the memories , force ghosts , zombie like Sith Lords , storm troopers whose costumes look like they’ve stepped out of the funny bones skeleton series and all the many many hades /Loki /Pluto underworld references throughout the saga . And how when Rey finally surrenders to the dark /death , death in the form of kylo gives her life .From death comes life . Death and life , dark and light , cosmic force and living force , hades and Persephone , kylo and Rey .
Even now in mandalorian we are told “
This is the way “- the way to what ? To save the soul ? (I am the way, truth and life from the gospel springs to mind )and mandolorian’s weapon - wow ! A weapon that turns people to dust , like ghosts fading to nothing and it’s like the weapon of hades ( two pronged fork like Mando’s is the weapon of hades in myth called bident ). Just so many coincidences . The thing with Star Wars is you can see it many ways but ultimately it’s myth making . I think in years to come we’ll
See it a different way because I feel they haven’t revealed everything yet and the more we do get will make us see the skywalker saga in a completely different light .

Ps/just editing to add do you remember how Rian said rey and kylo were two halves of our protagonist ? So what is the protagonist? The soul in its journey through netherworld till peace ( by eliminating its masculine , earth blood bound , shadow , passionate nature so it then becomes feminine ? )The soul going back to the beginning - feminine , (just like embryos all start life as feminine initially ) and child like . It’s like the realm
Of Star Wars in its spiritually is shedding what it means to grow up and love and reproduce on earth . It’s painful to watch but if we look at the realm of Star Wars - The Sith represent what we are as the soul entering the netherworld with all our pain ,fears , passion and flesh and blood ( the red symbolises this ) and the Jedi the journey at the end( blue ethereal
Calming )Moreover Rey’s yellow light saber and ending where we began in the sand highlights this more . A dead world - the desert. Sand religiously as a metaphor is meant to tie humans to God or in this case the force /Ben solo ( religious 17th century poem the rope of sand ). Sand and the lightsaber is also gold /yellow - the colour of light / the sun and it’s associated with immortality and new arisen at Easter as a symbol and in the colour of the priestly robes , priests wear .
Anyway just thought I would share even if it doesn’t make sense . I love youI love youI love you


Last edited by AhsokaTano on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 1:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
AhsokaTano
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