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Official TROS Spoilers discussion

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 1:09 pm

Well, regarding TROS it's as good an explanation as any.
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Post by Birdwoman on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 6:23 pm

Now that the ST is done, I can't believe a whole bunch of SW fans got so upset about Kylo and Rey falling in love. You would think they were like Lolita.

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Post by californiagirl on Thu 16 Apr 2020, 10:56 pm

Lots of authors right now are auctioning off certain products to support indie bookstores during the pandemic. Charles Soule is offering a signed Kylo comic #1 and a 500-word non-canon story about Ben or Kylo of the winner's choosing. The series' illustrator Will Sliney added in a drawing when it passed $700. It's garnered over $4000 so far in just a day and a half, with 4 days left to go. Someone pointed out that people are basically having to crowd fund Ben Solo stories because LF isn't making more. Someone else pointed out it's really a sign of how much money they're missing out on, that even though TROS was a disaster they would happily throw all the money at ugly Reylo merch, if there was any to buy. The interest in the Shakespeare book once it's cover was revealed is also testament to this.

There's also another auction where the winner gets to interview Soule on their podcast, which he says he doesn't do many of, so people have raised over $1000 so Marie-Claire of What the Force can interview him, she's done various other SW creators before as well. Really, people like Ben Solo, they do.
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Post by Birdwoman on Fri 17 Apr 2020, 2:23 am

I honestly feel it was a miscalculation from LF. I don't know who they listen to maybe the gen x fans who clutched their pearls about Kylo and reylo? They have completely missed out on revenue by killing off Ben Solo. I will be curious if they change direction and create more content in a couple of years.

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Post by Kylo Rey on Fri 17 Apr 2020, 8:13 am

This is the prettiest shot of the ST, change my mind. He looks straight up angelic here. And with the twinkly music, this scene takes your breath away. It’s incredible how Ben Solo looks like a completely different person to Kylo Ren just because of the change in Driver’s facial expressions and body language (when he was playing Kylo he would school his expressions to keep them often unreadable, morose, frowny etc. here it’s a lot more open and his body language was a lot more loose and free.)

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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 17 Apr 2020, 8:43 am

Today I was getting essentials and my local supermarket had a copy of SWI.
I didn't open it as I had no intention of buying it and they're asking people not to handle goods unless you intend to buy them, but I noticed an absence of Kylo/Ben on the front cover.

They had a lovely picture of Leia, although couldn't help but wonder what Carrie would have thought of how they assassinated her character.
But above.....we had Rey. Along with the caption: 'Rey Skywalker - the making of a hero.'

The rest of the cover had no reference to Adam at all.
Some time ago, I read a YouTube review of TROS in which the reviewer described the retconning of TLJ as 'almost vengeful'. I can't help but think that their complete ignoring of Adam's character seems similar. I didn't see any bad press about him during the making of the ST, everyone who worked with him had nothing but praise.
So therefore, it's not Adam, but Kylo they are against. And I'm absolutely sure it's because fans took Han and Leia's tortured son to their hearts they way most of them didn't with the other characters. Instead of doing what Lucas did with Han Solo, and embracing this, DLF have instead decided to 'punish' Kylo/Ben, first by completely erasing him from the final act of TROS, and now by erasing him from forthcoming material, even the magazine.

I honestly am stunned at the petty childishness of the so called professionals running DLF these days. They simply don't realise that turning the likeable Rey Nobody into Rey Mary Sue Palpwalker then shoving her down our throats is NOT going to make us forget Ben Solo.
In fact, quite the opposite.
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Post by californiagirl on Fri 17 Apr 2020, 10:16 am

The short story fundraiser is over $5000, and if it gets to $6000, Charles Soule is making it 1000 words instead. The podcast one will include answering a question he knows he shouldn't when it hits $1500, and another for every $500 after that. Truly, the Ben Solo cash flow has no end.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Fri 17 Apr 2020, 12:20 pm

Yes, and isn't it nice that, apart from a small minority, fans of this character are making their affection for him known in fabulous ways - such as raising money for charity.
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Post by californiagirl on Sun 19 Apr 2020, 10:49 am

An article about the various fundraisers and charity work done by the Reylo/Ben Solo/ST fandoms over the past 4 months.

https://yourmoneygeek.com/the-force-of-funding-how-star-wars-fans-stay-positive/
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Post by vaderito on Sun 19 Apr 2020, 11:38 am

That's wonderful! truly passionate fans!
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Sun 19 Apr 2020, 3:15 pm

I've just found this :

https://screenrant.com/rey-future-after-star-wars-9-rise-skywalker

I wonder if I'm the only person who couldn't care less?
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Post by vaderito on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 4:59 am

dec 27 2019. It's just an old speculation a week after the movie came out. It's 5 months since TROS release and you'll notice that speculation about Rey solo movie or trio movie, that was never widely spread to begin with, is non-existent now. Like I said, there's no point to keep posting old speculation articles because they are old. Irrelevant.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 5:38 am

If there's one thing that I am really finding disturbing is despite Kylo's fate in TROS, and the ramping up of Rey from scavenger to Force goddess, the accusations of Reylo being an abusive ship is continuing.

Yesterday, I was on a news website, and we were having a light hearted discussion about what films and TV programs everyone is watching during lockdown.
The conversation eventually turned to SW, and one poster started on and on about not only how Reylo is abusive, but also that the Han/Leia relationship was abusive as he 'forced his attentions on her.'.

I was genuinely bewildered, as a teenager I loved the Han/Leia romance. I tried to explain but the poster then went on about how she and her wife were molested as kids. So, I explained that I myself was twice indecently assaulted, once at seven, once at thirteen, but I still didn't see either relationship as abusive, and that Kylo himself was an abuse victim.
The lady then responded by more or less accusing me of 'failing to see the truth, of being in denial,' and then started ranting about how I was wrong to like the SW films. As her comments started to get more and more insulting I told her we'd have to agree to disagree then stopped replying to her before I lost my temper.

I expect this kind of stuff on Tumblr, or SW forums, but never did I expect it on a news website where we we having a nice conversation about what to watch during lockdown!

I'm sorry for what these ladies have endured but they don't have the right to lecture me on what I find entertaining. At the end of the day, they're just films.

There's something seriously wrong these days.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 2:22 pm

So the TROS junior novel came out this past week, and some excerpts have been circulating. Namely one that refers to Kylo as a master of lies, and claims he's the one who told her that her parents were nobodies, rather than Rey saying it herself. Recall the author's TLJ junior novel that also turned him into a cackling bad guy (a shame because I liked his TFA), but at the same time I'm not sure how much this one is his fault. Some of the stuff here matches up with neither TLJ nor TROS, or the other TROS stuff, because much of the ancillary TROS stuff varies wildly, because TROS is is nonsensical and canon-breaking. Everyone will have a different take on "they sold you to protect you," one of the worst lines and concepts of the film. There's no good way to try and make sense of it. I think of Pablo having to write the VD because he writes all of them, having to deal with whatever Terrio gave him, even though he hated the movie. I doubt Rae Carson knew what a fiasco TROS was going to be when she signed on. You can literally get a team of professionals who have written well-liked SW things and even they can't make TROS make sense, or be good, or match up with any other incarnation of the story or the films before it.
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Post by AhsokaTano on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 2:31 pm

@Californiagirl
If the junior novel refers to kylo as master of lies - like loki a trickster ( and like Han his father before him ) than maybe that means his death is a trick and a lie . Here’s hoping ( cross my fingers ). Would rather have trickster kylo/Ben master of lies than dead kylo/Ben .If he’s master of lies there’s a possibility that he’s not really dead as that too may have been a lie by the master of lies .
Sorry . Couldn’t help it after hearing that about kylo /Ben .
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 3:22 pm

I've come to the conclusion that JJ Abrams created Kylo to be hated.
And it backfired when he ended up being more loved than their cardboard cut out Mary Sue heroine.
Whatever....
I am starting to disassociate myself from DLF these days.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 3:56 pm

I think they wanted him at least somewhat sympathetic, or they wouldn't have redeemed him or gone to such great lengths to make him the byronic, prince-like figure of TFA, though I suspect Kasdan had more to do with that. It's Trevorrow who really seemed to want cartoonish, raging bad guy Kylo, and I wonder if that's one of the reasons he got ousted early on.

The book also handles the voices in his head as a special power that he used for the wrong reasons, which... I'm just confused in so many ways. The underlying problem is that the main creators of TROS had no idea what they were doing, therefore everyone creating these offshoot versions of it can't know what's happening either, and none of them match up.

Someone noted yesterday that there was finally an image of unmasked Ben in promotion for the TROS release. But there was also just a Galaxy of Adventures short with masked Kylo and his evil murdery KOR. But that was also the same channel that just did the rolly baby Ben with blue butterflies videos. They're really bipolar when it comes to depictions of Ben.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 4:02 pm

I think some writers and directors, like Laurence Kasdan, Rian Johnson, and CharlesSoule, have a genuine affection for the character.
Abrams, I suspect, doesn't, and unfortunately for those of us who love the character he found a soul mate in Terrio.
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Post by californiagirl on Mon 20 Apr 2020, 4:08 pm

@motherofpearl1 Not that JJ is blameless, but I do put a lot of this on Terrio. They also seem very clueless both in terms of SW and its audience. Meanwhile other official creators people are making Reylo Shakespeare covers and fundraising with a Ben Solo story. By the way, the two charity fundraisers together, the short story one and the podcast interview one, earned a total of over $15,000. So there's that.

Once Kylo was introduced in TFA, some perceived him as a super duper power hungry evil murder man, and others saw him for the archetype he really was. LF has kind of been playing both sides ever since, and it's only gotten more obvious post-TROS.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Tue 21 Apr 2020, 9:21 am

Oh, I blame much of it on Terrio, TFA was a hugely enjoyable film, but as I've said, much of that was down to Kasdan. Abrams is a competent director, but not so good as a writer. How I wish Kasdan had come back for TROS.

I know it will never happen, but how I wish they'd retcon it, if not on film in comic format, because simply put I can NEVER get enough of Kylo/Ben. He has to be one of the most fascinating characters I've ever seen on film, and I'd love to see his story continue in some format, now Adam is finished with playing him( although I think much of that is due to his treatment in TROS).

Sadly, I wish I could feel the same way about Rey, but as my interest and affection for Ben Solo increased film by film, it was the exact opposite with Rey. I like Daisy but I think I've had my fill of Saint Rey.
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Post by fuhry on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 9:00 am

One of the things George Lucas did really well in the prequels was to tell a believable story about how a likeable kid and loyal friend to Obi-wan falls from grace and embraces darkness. In TFA, they seemed to be setting up the opposite arc, where a young man that has embraced the darkness takes the long road back. But even I, as a full throated Bendemption advocate by the end, thought after TFA that his killing of his father, the beloved Han Solo, might be unredeemable.

And it seems that was the way that JJ and Terrio thought too. But Rian was up to the challenge and set the stage. Completing Ben's redemption is a huge story challenge but one that, if done correctly, could be believable and immensely powerful.

Ben's killing of his father, done to impress his master, Snoke, instead creates a crack in Kylo Ren. Through this crack, the scavenger, Rey crawls. She saves him with her love, and by dong that, saves the galaxy from war and suffering. She succeeds where Obi-wan failed, she succeeds where Han and Leia failed, she turns Han's death into a sacrifice for the greater good.

That's a story. But in TROS, Ben is saved by Leia's force projection and his father's memory. In this story Rey has nothing to do. Except redeem herself from the sin of being born a Palpatine. No wonder she stopped being likeable.
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Post by motherofpearl1 on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 9:53 am

The worst thing is.... it's left up in the air as to who Leia really was trying to save in that scene - Ben or Rey? Because by having her sacrifice take place in during Ben and Rey's duel, moments after Ben has essentially won the fight it disturbingly looks as if she was more concerned with her surrogate daughter than the child she'd given birth to.
For me, the real reason it was so hard to like this version of Rey isn't because she's 'overpowered', as the fact that everyone immediately adores her. Zorri Bliss was all over her after five minutes, Luke's FG was sweetness at light despite the pair of them being at each other's throats on Acht To, Poe gushing over her skills as a pilot five minutes after arguing with her over BB8.
But having Leia happily forget the son she conceived with the love of her life to embrace Palpatine's granddaughter is unforgivable. Fine with her treating Rey as a daughter - but not as a superior replacement for her flesh and blood child.

A friend of mine kindly got me the dvd of TROS over Easter, so I can skip to all the Kylo/Ben scenes (which I'm doing, frequently) and I told myself to try watching it again, to be fair, but honestly - it's even worse second time around! Finn is a pain in the a** with his constant. REY!!!!!, REG struggles with the awful dialogue (bless him, he deserves better) Rose's treatment is even more infuriating, but most of all Rey is, quite simply, impossible to tolerate. It actually breaks my heart to see Daisy's sweet, vulnerable heroine become this self serving, self righteous goody two shoes.

I salute Adam for somehow keeping a straight face when confronted with all those pickled Snoke's, Palpatine's husk in as what one YouTuber described as a gigantic baby bouncer, and having to say:"You're a Palpatine" to Rey - bet he was glad of the helmet then! As usual, Kylo Ren is a joy to watch. What a pity this disaster area is the last we'll see of him.

Never thought I'd say this but I'm very glad to see the back of Rey. At least, if they do make any more films or comics with Rey Skywalker, I won't have to endure her to see Kylo.
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Post by californiagirl on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 2:35 pm

Someone was saying the junior novel is real weird, the author mischaracterizes Rey and Leia, and hates Ben, and doesn't recount the film's events correctly, and even contradicts itself. And this observation came from someone who like the main novel and thought it was Reylo as heck. I swear there's some mandate that the SG can't get involved in any TROS-related ventures.

At least fanfic is booming. I recently got an AO3 account, though I haven't used it yet. This article mentions SW and Reylo. https://www.forbes.com/sites/denizcam/2020/04/21/in-a-lonely-lockdown-with-books-slow-to-come-fanfiction-booms/#783fb3c646cb
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Post by special_cases on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 4:31 pm

The author was a well-known Kylo hater. There is nothing surprising about JN as Lucasmouse really don't care about any supplemental materials. The authors have a lot of freedom for their headcanons so that's how we are getting trash like these both novelizations. They truly mean nothing, the good and the bad in them, and the only big role they have is being an instrument in fandom wars.

To be fair, we totally lost it in this case, as both writers preferred to bent for antis and pseudo woke crowd, for different reasons. By twisting the obvious interpretations in some metaphorical mambo jambo mental gymnastics in addition to original thematic mess in the screenplay.
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Post by Saracene on Wed 22 Apr 2020, 4:35 pm

The problem with Kylo’s redemption in TRoS is that, instead of spacing it out, the movie throws in everything all at once in the same scene - Leia’s reaching out to Ben, Rey healing him and then Han’s vision straight after. So Reylo gets lost and cancelled out in a way; the movie gets Kylo into a position where he’s got Rey at his mercy, but it also makes it look like he stops himself not because of what he feels for Rey, but because he gets distracted by Leia. And then it looks like Rey heals Ben not because she really cares for him, but more for Leia’s sake almost. And then it’s like Ben decides to throw his red lightsaber away and go help Rey mostly because of his mother and what she believed in. Of course Ben’s relationships with his family were important and had to play a part, but because the movie squashed in Kylo’s change of heart into a single scene, it came at the expense of what should have been the central dynamic of the film.
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